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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Help me win an argument with a random guy on Facebook
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2018, 01:48:00 AM »
0
OOS was never actually meant to be canon to anything but Lament of Innocence; Leon's Gauntlet is used in the game, the Order's Mansion is at Eternal Night, and Rinaldo Gandolfi is name-dropped.

You can also assume some shared timeline with Dracula's Curse, but it's largely irrelevant. Suffice it to say that knowing how the Belmont v Dracula feud started helps in both timelines, but there's no reason to believe OOS is part of the main timeline.

I don't place it on the main timeline, but if it's truly only canon to LOI, why reference other games? Specifically featuring HC's Simon sprite which is not the iconic Simon sprite that has been referenced in other games. (In HOD Boss rush, you can even play as 8 bit Simon). It's too much of an obscure reference, as is the red hair, and obviously Simon plays his part in the timeline.

The other option is that because LOI is referenced and Simon is found in Medusa's lair, perhaps in this continuum he failed and OOS happened.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline Lumi Kløvstad

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Re: Help me win an argument with a random guy on Facebook
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2018, 05:03:00 PM »
0
I don't place it on the main timeline, but if it's truly only canon to LOI, why reference other games? Specifically featuring HC's Simon sprite which is not the iconic Simon sprite that has been referenced in other games. (In HOD Boss rush, you can even play as 8 bit Simon). It's too much of an obscure reference, as is the red hair, and obviously Simon plays his part in the timeline.

The other option is that because LOI is referenced and Simon is found in Medusa's lair, perhaps in this continuum he failed and OOS happened.

You could probably see it that way, but I view the HC Simon sprite's presence as "they wanted to make a nod and that one was laying around". Maybe one of the staff played Haunted Castle in arcades when he was younger and wanted to homage it.

I mean, y'all know me. I love looking for connections even when they don't really exist, but this is something that seems pretty clear to me as "it's a knowing wink and nod to niche players", and little, if anything, more than that. In this context, there's not even any certainty it actually is meant to be Simon as opposed to "someone else who ran afoul of Medusa". We only know that Order of Shadows is set in a version of the 1600's, which is a rather nebulous setting without something to narrow it down. Every version of Simon's story we've actually seen takes place in the last decade of that century, so it's fair to say that if Simon exists in Desmond's world (and again, no guarantee he does), Desmond's tale definitely takes place far earlier than Simon's.

In the end, why reference other games?

Because they can and we appreciate it when they do.
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Help me win an argument with a random guy on Facebook
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2018, 06:49:32 AM »
0
@Lumi Agree to disagree. You can't say on one Hanford canon to LOI but on the other hand something that sticks out like dogs balls is simply "a nod". We're not talking about some obscure Easter egg which you need to duck or break walls for, it's in plain sight.

Re: HC doesn't take place in any specific year, so it could potentially fit anywhere in a universe where there isn't already a Simon.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline Lumi Kløvstad

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Re: Help me win an argument with a random guy on Facebook
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2018, 06:42:50 PM »
0
@Lumi Agree to disagree. You can't say on one Hanford canon to LOI but on the other hand something that sticks out like dogs balls is simply "a nod". We're not talking about some obscure Easter egg which you need to duck or break walls for, it's in plain sight.

Re: HC doesn't take place in any specific year, so it could potentially fit anywhere in a universe where there isn't already a Simon.

References don't always have to make canonical sense and there is no mandate that they should.

For instance, in Lords of Shadow 2 Revelations, Alucard can encounter a statue of Slogra (also featured during the opening of the modern day section in the main campaign). Like you say, it's not
Quote
some obscure Easter egg which you need to duck or break walls for, it's in plain sight.

It's smack dab THERE. It couldn't be any more right there unless it were a boss fight.



Slogra is not in any way canon in the Lords of Shadow games, yet, here's a giant reference to him, captured in digital stone. He's there solely to be noticed. A fan who has no idea who Slogra is will just go "oh that's neat" and get on with their lives (if they notice it at all), but a more knowledgable fan will pull a Fonz and greet their old friend.


Eeeeey Slogs! How's the hatchlin's?

This is the exact same principle I think this Simon Belmont nod operates on.

Also, owing to Haunted Castle's status as a adaptation/remake arcade port made when the only games in the series were Castlevania and Simon's Quest, I think we would be more than safe to assume it takes place in the same period unless something like a screen grab turns up that demonstrably shows it to take place in a different era.

Really though, and this is where I get off my high horse a bit, neither one of us can actually be conclusively right: even my argument is predicated on how Simon Belmont's adventures have been timed in timelines that share precious little in common with this history. And when we start reaching into the history of other universes to justify history in another, we're really just grasping at straws in a hypercosmic way. If you want to construct a headcanon, by all means, do it. Enjoy that headcanon. Nobody said it has to be correct to be fun.
If you REALLY want Simon Belmont to have adventured in 1650 or whenever and have directly failed in his quest, go right ahead. Order of Shadows doesn't take place in any timeline -- it's fanfiction. So go and make more fanfiction, because it's not like Konami is going to beat any of us to the punch there. This particular setting is super ripe for that sort of stuff.

Just please acknowledge that's what it is: with some generous headcanon-only adjustments and essentially no backing evidence, what you or I have is just a theory. A GAAAME THEO-- you know what, I think you get the idea.

In conclusion, I reiterate:
In the end, why reference other games?

Because they can and we appreciate it when they do.




How not to be a dark lord: the answer to that is a terribly interesting answer that involves an almost Jedi-like adherence to keeping oneself under control and finding ways to be true to yourself in a way that doesn't encourage the worst parts of you to become dangerously exaggerated and instead feeds your better nature. Also, protip: don't fuck with Alchemy or strike up any deals with ancient Japanese Shinigami gods no matter how tempting the deal or how suavely dressed the Shinigami is.

Offline Succubus

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Re: Help me win an argument with a random guy on Facebook
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2018, 10:27:08 AM »
0
So I'm jumping in a little late here, and also ignoring a lot of the tangents that this discussion took.  Iga DID retcon Circle of the Moon, and the N64 games, and Legends as well.  There was no official, overarching series timeline until around the time of Harmony of Dissonance.  Iga put out the first official timeline then, and it didn't include any of the above games.

That. The whole reason Legends, the N64 games, and Circle of the Moon didn't have Igarashi's involvement to begin with is because, at that point in time, there was no single figure helming the series, creating an official timeline and calling the shots on what is or isn't in it. Those games were just as valid, story-wise, as any other. When things contradict, who's to say which is the one that doesn't "count"? I find it pretty farfetched to believe any of the games were created from the get-go as something that shouldn't be considered canon. Even if they choose to create a story on an "alternate" timeline, it's still a canon story for that timeline, and every timeline is equally valid until someone comes along and officially declares one as the "true" timeline, which didn't happen until years after all these games came out. Hence the retconning.

A key thing to remember here is that many of the fans take this stuff waaaaaaay more seriously than most of the creators probably did. People forget that Castlevania was conceived as a silly parody of horror B-movies. Eventually, it evolved into something of a gothic epic with all this gravitas, for better or for worse, but in all those years of transitioning from one to the other, it's to be expected that pieces aren't going to fit together perfectly. I'm doubtful they even created, maintained, and passed around the resources necessary to ensure flawless continuity. They probably didn't even expect the series to so big and long-running. To do this kind of stuff right, you need to start documenting key facts from the very beginning. And I kinda feel bad for the people who have their stories completely disregarded just because some relatively insignificant details, like the year it takes place, don't gel with the details of others.

As for Alucard and Maria begetting Nathan, I assume that's just confusion with Legends, where Sonia and Alucard presumably beget Trevor.

Offline Nagumo

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Re: Help me win an argument with a random guy on Facebook
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2018, 10:51:22 AM »
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I'm not going to comment on the CV64 games or Legends, but regarding CotM: the developers themselves made clear the game's story had absolutely no connenction story-wise to the previous games, aside from the basic premise being the same. Therefore it's illogical to say IGA 'retconned' CotM because that implies the game occupied the same continuity as the rest of the series at some point. You can't remove a game from continuity that was never meant to be part of said continuity in the first place.   

Offline Succubus

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Re: Help me win an argument with a random guy on Facebook
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2018, 11:53:28 AM »
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This was posted earlier in this topic:

Konami Magazine (Vol 20, March 2001) released together with Circle of the Moon (March 21, 2001), says:

ぞの最新作となる本作のストーリーは、今までのベルモント家やモリス家とは異なる時間軸で流れていく。だが、そこで描かれる新たな物語は、紛れもなくドラキユラと人間の戦い。

"The story of this latest work flows on a different timeline from the conventional Belmont and Morris families'. However, the new story unfolding here is unquestionably a fight between Dracula and humans."

So even if it's on an entirely separate timeline that doesn't include any other Castlevania game, it's still the same universe and still the same Dracula. Prior to Igarashi establishing a canon timeline, you could've just as well argued that CotM is the canon timeline, while all of the others aren't canon (it'd be super silly if that were the case, but still). But Igarashi chose which is the "true" timeline. Not only that, but he decided to completely erase the alternate timeline, rather than acknowledging that an alternate timeline exists. Compare this to, say, Nintendo's Zelda timeline, which has multiple alternate timelines that are all acknowledged by Nintendo and treated as equally valid.

Offline theplottwist

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Re: Help me win an argument with a random guy on Facebook
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2018, 01:15:14 PM »
+1
But Igarashi chose which is the "true" timeline.

With all due respect, but this seems to me as a distortion of the facts. He may have formed the "main" timeline, and it's called "main" because it has most of the mainline games, but he never once implied it's the only "true" one to my knowledge. "Main" =|= "True" .

In fact, Judgment, beyond being a characterization embarassment, exists to demonstrate that he acknowledges the existence of alternate worlds.

Quote
Not only that, but he decided to completely erase the alternate timeline, rather than acknowledging that an alternate timeline exists.

And this is a misunderstanding.

The very post you're quoting is saying the opposite of what you just said: The creators intended for the game to "flow on a different timeline", and IGA said CotM is "treated the way the developers intended". This is straight up acknowledging that the timeline exists in parallel to his because that's what the devs intended. And that ON TOP of Judgment demonstrating that alternate timelines are a thing via Cornell.

Also, making a timeline akin to Zelda wouldn't work very well, would it? Each alternate game would exist alone in its own line with maybe one another (CV64), some without any rhyme or reason why (such as CotM, existing isolated with no connection to the Belmonts, as the devs said) :P

But, to be honest, I'd like one official timeline like the one Zelda has, too.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 01:22:13 PM by theplottwist »
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Offline Succubus

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Re: Help me win an argument with a random guy on Facebook
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2018, 05:14:01 PM »
0
I'm just using "true" as a synonym for "canon". A "main" timeline and an alternate can both be canon. Just not simultaneously. They're canon within their own timelines. When the word "official" comes into play, I'd say that's definitely canon. If a game's story is regarded as "unofficial", it's not canon period, not even within its own alternate timeline, and is effectively erased from the lore.

I'm taking this in mind here: https://imgur.com/a/GmoXjwu

To compare to Zelda again, the entire Zelda timeline, with all its alternate timelines, is regarded as official. No branch has been regarded as "unofficial" (outside of, like, the CD-i games).

Igarashi said the games were taken out of the timeline. Not out of the main timeline or anything like that, but just dropped altogether. That's retconning in my book.

Offline Lumi Kløvstad

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Re: Help me win an argument with a random guy on Facebook
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2018, 06:13:09 PM »
0
I'm just using "true" as a synonym for "canon". A "main" timeline and an alternate can both be canon. Just not simultaneously. They're canon within their own timelines. When the word "official" comes into play, I'd say that's definitely canon. If a game's story is regarded as "unofficial", it's not canon period, not even within its own alternate timeline, and is effectively erased from the lore.

I'm taking this in mind here: https://imgur.com/a/GmoXjwu

To compare to Zelda again, the entire Zelda timeline, with all its alternate timelines, is regarded as official. No branch has been regarded as "unofficial" (outside of, like, the CD-i games).

Igarashi said the games were taken out of the timeline. Not out of the main timeline or anything like that, but just dropped altogether. That's retconning in my book.

That's because Igarashi has HIS timeline, and when he speaks about THE timeline, he was referring to HIS timeline.

If I say I deleted a manuscript off of "the" computer, that doesn't mean I've deleted it off of every computer which might have held it -- I mean I've deleted it off of MY computer. My personal machine.

Igarashi has said in the past that he never felt qualified to pass judgment on the works of other people who stewarded entries in the series, and that his iteration of Castlevania was neither the only one nor wholly or exclusively definitive. All Castlevania is valid, in his view. He just didn't think all Castlevania games were valid to the specific iteration he was working on. He actually worked pretty carefully over the years to not condemn or invalidate anything that came before or might come after him. He only had direct control over the specific canon he worked on while he worked on it, and when he built his timeline, he had say on what went on it and what didn't.

This is not a exclusive-to-Iga deal, by the way: MercurySteam had their own timeline, and they had absolute say on what went on it and what didn't. But we don't say "MercurySteam retconned Symphony of the Night!" because that's not at all what happened in any way shape or form: they simply felt no reason to include it in their take of the series or its official timeline, incidentally for the exact same reasons IGA chose not to include Legends in his -- the amount of canon gymnastics it would have taken to justify its inclusion was just too much work by comparison to leaving the whole damn thing out.

They didn't "remove" SOTN from Lords of Shadow -- it was never present in it to begin with.

In the same way, Iga didn't "remove" anything. Those things just were never intended to be a part of the timeline he built.

Some day, someone else might take stewardship of Castlevania. They would likely make their own timeline when they did so. It's entirely likely, if not outright certain, that less than 100% of the games we know and love will be canon to that new timeline. Possibly even none of them, like MercurySteam decreed for theirs. This doesn't mean they've "retconned" or "removed" or "invalidated" a single goddamn thing.

All it means is that they have their own story to tell, and those omitted games aren't a part of it.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 06:38:42 PM by Lumi Kløvstad »
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Help me win an argument with a random guy on Facebook
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2018, 08:32:29 PM »
0
In fact, Judgment, beyond being a characterization embarassment, exists to demonstrate that he acknowledges the existence of alternate worlds.

This. All continuums 'exist', most of the games follow the main/ Iga continuum.
I mean how many Simons are there..

But, to be honest, I'd like one official timeline like the one Zelda has, too.

Well even Nintendo have offered a "what-if" scenario for the Hero is Defeated Timeline to date. However, if you read between the lines a little, the 3 timelines can exist. I've posted something in the CVD about this before i.e. the first timeline having spawned the other two timelines. The Zelda timeline is a lot more definitive and has probably had as many if not more retcons to be fair.

This is not a exclusive-to-Iga deal, by the way: MercurySteam had their own timeline, and they had absolute say on what went on it and what didn't. But we don't say "MercurySteam retconned Symphony of the Night!" because that's not at all what happened in any way shape or form: they simply felt no reason to include it in their take of the series or its official timeline,

The problem with LOS is it's not even specifically indicated where or in what context (aside from the year) this is taking place. From the narration in the prologue which states the year of our Lord in the 1000's or whatnot, we can discern the setting is medieval and is more than likely somewhere European. However, this and the ending which is based in the future (containing gothic architecture) is basically all we have to go off. The rest of the game feels like LOTR in places and it's never really made clear or established where its set on its own accord. At least COTM stated the Castle was in Austria, and that was a standalone game. LOI never gave specific locations, however, it did provide a map and it fed off the rest of the existing canon's lore and history, etc.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 08:38:54 PM by zangetsu468 »
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline Jorge D. Fuentes

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Re: Help me win an argument with a random guy on Facebook
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2018, 05:44:48 PM »
+1
The minute you throw Time Travel (St.Germaine, Aeon, Galamoth), you've immediately opened the possibility of alternate universes/dimensions... and that's essentially the premise of CVJudgment; that unifying the dimensions is what allows the true ending to be gotten.

In my headcanon that's why there are so many different-ish versions of Simon.  One is the red-headed pretty boy, one is the blonde barbarian, one is the red-headed bearded beast, and another one looks like FFVII's Cid. :P  They're all potentially from different universes.
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Offline Guy Belmont

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Re: Help me win an argument with a random guy on Facebook
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2018, 07:58:06 PM »
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This was posted earlier in this topic:

Igarashi chose which is the "true" timeline.

Right but only cos at that point in time, he was the HEAD of it, if I took it over lets say id make a ton of changes, That's why its call IGA's Timeline not  the

official only timeline, and there will never be another one ever, ever.

I mean many, many people that have worked on CV have had different  ways of thinking, you just have to look at CV 3 and CV TA.

Both were seen as the story of the first man to have killed the count, but Both  teams  had there own Ideas.

And its the same with IGA, he had his own Ideas.

like I said its not set in stone, if someone took it over and started working on the original universe, at some point they would need to change things to fit in with there work.

so its all good.
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Offline Shinobi

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Re: Help me win an argument with a random guy on Facebook
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2018, 11:55:53 AM »
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Speaking of which:
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 12:00:29 PM by Shinobi »

Offline Inccubus

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Re: Help me win an argument with a random guy on Facebook
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2018, 02:20:44 PM »
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Same I always say. It doesn't matter, people have this impression that if a game is not canon it "means less" and this is just not true at all. Circle is a great game, canon is irrelevant to its merits. Same for LoD, which has the best Dracula intellect-wise on my opinion (the canon would have more to GAIN from having this smart of a Dracula in it, and I still am content that it isn't canon).

Making it canon with a few name changes has always been a dream hack of mine.
Fix Carmilla's name.
Morris Baldwin -> Baldwin Morris.
Hugh Baldwin -> Hugh Morris.
Nathan Graves -> Nathan Morris. (Yes, they are actually brothers now. Explains Hugh's jealousy better.)
At the end they recover Dracula's remains and take them to Ecclesia.
Nathan is Quincey's grandfather or great-grandfather.
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