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Offline The Puritan

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2018, 03:50:50 PM »
0
I just now realized that Bartley may have been trying to finish what her uncle started in the Stoker novel. The last stage is in England after all.

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2018, 04:55:19 AM »
0
That could work considering we see it on Rondo's version of the VK. It makes the whip into a kind of double-edged weapon. You can kill your foes by striking them with the whip, or stabbing them with the handle. The only issue is that Quincy never used the VK. He was armed with a lever-action Winchester and a large bowie knife (which is the actual weapon used to impale Dracula's heart in the novel). But since he has the magical properties of the Belmont blood that would assists him greatly in taking down the Count without the whip.

I understand that I'm the official novel Quincey didn't use a stake to kill Dracula, however, the CV wiki page is stating that event from the book was retconned in CV's universe, as is the spelling changed to "Quincy".

As I said, certain things have to change. The version of events in the Stoker novel is different in the CVerse, simple.
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LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2018, 10:41:45 AM »
0
It is obvious that things in the CV-verse would change from the novel. But even then Quincy still never used the vampirekiller or it would have been mentioned. He killed Dracula the traditional way rather then use the whip (plunging a wooden stake through Dracula's heart). And maybe the explanation could be is that he left the whip behind knowing he wasn't coming back alive. Therefor his son would take the whip after all's said and done.

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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2018, 02:16:21 PM »
0
It is obvious that things in the CV-verse would change from the novel. But even then Quincy still never used the vampirekiller or it would have been mentioned. He killed Dracula the traditional way rather then use the whip (plunging a wooden stake through Dracula's heart). And maybe the explanation could be is that he left the whip behind knowing he wasn't coming back alive. Therefor his son would take the whip after all's said and done.

This is also possible. However, the entire backstory to the VK and all the additional details we have today (such as the VK eventually killing John Morris) didn't exist back then, it was simply a tie-in to with BL the novel. I wasn't saying it was definitively the VK, what I thought about was that every Belmont or Belmont descendant(Morris, Schneider, etc) in CV games have always used the VK to kill Dracula. This is a version of events which has been altered to suit the series and is the only instance where the VK wasn't used, so because it was altered to "using a stake", I was simply opening the thought to discussion asking if it was really that much of a stretch. However, whether it's a Bowie knife or a stake, logic would have to assume it probably wasn't retrieved thereafter.

Why they even changed the novel's events slightly and Quincey's name spelling is beyond me. (Unless they didn't want to be sued).
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            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
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LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
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                                                                         BE>*  
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Offline Guy Belmont

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2018, 04:20:39 PM »
0
I do really think that the count needs A better reason to come to the England, other then just to make Vampires, as he has others to do that for him, plus his goal has always been to kill humanity.


It should be more like, that mina was related to some powerful bloodline, maybe Belmont? and as there inactive makes it the perfect time to strike,
and it would Explain super powered will and how she resisted the counts power that sort of thing.


As i've said you can't just port the story of the book in to CV, it just  can't work out flat.

I just now realized that Bartley may have been trying to finish what her uncle started in the Stoker novel. The last stage is in England after all.
This idea also blew my mind.
But the work she is trying to finish is getting mina's soul.

As i feel like they only found out she was a releted to some powerful bloodline by sheer chance. 

i mean it would really only fit if she was a pure blooded belmont in hinding, as i don't think the count would risk all for anyone else.
as stopping that line and haveing contoul of somehting as powerful as a belmont, i mean think would you could do with that blood ( in an occult snese i mean) and it would cut down on the users of the whip.

 as its hard enough already but with no Belmont's coming to take the back the whip in 1999, would put a lot on the Morris family shoulders, I have to think the family might die out, then  there'd be NO one to whiled the whip. And I have to wonder if they would have killed the count like Julius.
 
That would be enough of a reason to come to risk coming to England.

This would be the sort of thing I would think the CV story line for Dacula Hits of the book, but its own thing.
 
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2018, 07:00:23 PM »
0
I do really think that the count needs A better reason to come to the England, other then just to make Vampires, as he has others to do that for him
The novel indirectly illustrates the count being responsible for the ripper murders

It should be more like, that mina was related to some powerful bloodline, maybe Belmont? and as there inactive makes it the perfect time to strike,

Mina Harker>>>Mina Hakuba? Not that far of a stretch when you consider that the Belnades name came from Sypha's family tree to eventually get Yoko Belnades.

as its hard enough already but with no Belmont's coming to take the back the whip in 1999, would put a lot on the Morris family shoulders, I have to think the family might die out, then  there'd be NO one to whiled the whip. And I have to wonder if they would have killed the count like Julius.

I very much doubt it. It's shown a few times that when the Belmonts use the VK, whether it's purely the VK's rage, their abilities or all of the above, their overall power increases dramatically. Leon couldn't inflict any damage to Walter without the VK, Julius was OP during AoS compared to DoS, when he explicitly mentioned the VK's power fading after the former. Even as a Morris, the fully powered VK substantially harms enemies including Dracula more than its base form.

My theory long ago was that after the events of SOTN, the Belmonts made themselves scarce, having been susceptible to the forces of darkness. Over the next 2 centuries they existed and trained in secret without the VK until Julius went back and took the mantle to defeat Dracula for good.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
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                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
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            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
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                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline Guy Belmont

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2018, 08:37:56 PM »
-1
The novel indirectly illustrates the count being responsible for the ripper murders
True, but That's still not really a good reason to come over to just kill, again he has others  for that. he has bigger fish to fry.

Mina Harker>>>Mina Hakuba? Not that far of a stretch when you consider that the Belnades name came from Sypha's family tree to eventually get Yoko Belnades.
Hmm I don't know, makes more sense for a Belmont. Hakubas where BIG but I don't think they where heard of back then, or surely someone would have asked them for help sooner.


My theory long ago was that after the events of SOTN, the Belmonts made themselves scarce, having been susceptible to the forces of darkness. Over the next 2 centuries they existed and trained in secret without the VK until Julius went back and took the mantle to defeat Dracula for good.

Sorry I have to disagree with you here, that makes 110% no sense. Why give up the whip to just train, Thats HIGHY irresponsible. That cost men bloody lives.

 I agree they didn't know  at the time, no one did. But  when they found out  they'd take it back.

No that make no sense, they'd keep it, to help them train, as if it has the power to weaken the counts castle, then I think it would help out with this sort of thing. I mean  that may have only worked cos of the Hakuba ritual.

What DOES make more sense  is the idea of the  purification ritual.

(click to show/hide)

 

 I feel the Belmont's wouldn't  give up and endanger others  unless they really, REALLY HAD to.

also i seem to remember that in Simon's Quest if one used the  Laurels one could not attack, maybe that was the remake, but it does tie in nicely.

Or there's the other Theory about breaking the blood covenant, but i really don't like that one as  its full of holes.

I mean I'm not trying to shoot you down.
 but the idea of them just tossing the whip away, and making others take up the role and in turn killing others just to train, when you could really do both.

 Really does not sound very Belmont to me.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 09:45:25 PM by Guy Belmont »
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2018, 10:10:01 PM »
0
True, but That's still not really a good reason to come over to just kill, again he has others  for that. he has bigger fish to fry.
Hmm I don't know, makes more sense for a Belmont. Hakubas where BIG but I don't think they where heard of back then, or surely someone would have asked them for help sooner.
In the film, he was trying to acquire real estate in London, I can't remember if this is in the novel.

Sorry I have to disagree with you here, that makes 110% no sense. Why give up the whip to just train, Thats HIGHY irresponsible. That cost men bloody lives.
The cost of the few vs the cost of the few that can actually potentially (and do eventually) destroy Dracula.. Hmm, not a bad trade off


(click to show/hide)
See more on this below.

so he looked high and low for an answer, but then they  came across a mystic. And he told them about  an old holy ritual and what that it could do and what it would cost them. ( This also fits as in Simons time of need, suddenly someone appeared to give him the answer  just when he needed it most.)
It fits, but is it documented anywhere>

They wanted to find another way, as giving up the whip for that long they would have to put the burden on another's shoulders.
Which they did, but it was entrusted and the Morris clan accepted it.

And it would leave them VERY open, for evil to settle some old scores.
Unless they were in hiding. Whether you subscribe to the theory or not, they were no where to be found for roughly 200 years. They weren't there when Shanoa fought Dracula, nor were the Morris clan, I guess every hero is an asshole for not being there, right..
   
I feel the Belmont's wouldn't  give up and endanger others  unless they really, REALLY HAD to.
Again, the most powerful demon slaying family has been directly at risk several times (as stated by yourself). They're not endangering others by preserving that bloodline and coming back stronger, that's fighting smart.

I mean I'm not trying to shoot you down.
Yeah but you are, so don't sugar coat it #sorrynotsorry

but the idea of them just tossing the whip away, and making others take up the role and in turn killing others just to train, when you could really do both.
They didn't 'toss' the VK aside. They entrusted it to the Morris Clan who were obviously capable of handling any unforseen affairs including taking down Dracula in their time of need.
"Training" was necessary because it was clear Dracula would keep on resurrecting as he had done for the past 300 years.

Really does not sound very Belmont to me.
Preserving the family bloodline by keeping it from perishing (to eventually destroy Dracula) is exactly what Belmonts would do and this is indicated in OOE. (this ties in with Richter being Daniela's grandfather).

You're going on about some ritual or whatever, but the only time I can make any inference from any game regarding a ritual that wasn't mentioned in-game is in POR, when Wind states that he's heard the Belmonts can't touch the VK until 1999.. Perhaps a ritual was done, and said ritual was lifted or amended prior to Julius fighting Dracula, I'm not sure. But all this other stuff is just fan fiction until proof is presented.


I may not be the most avid theorist on this forum, hell I can't translate Japanese, I know certain things about mythology and history (not everything), but I at least use examples demonstrated in the games, or within the game's script (when Julius mentions the VK's "power" fading after AoS) etc, and people like yourself exclaim it to be wrong and then waffle on about some fan theory - which I actually read by the way - and can not realise that whether the other person's view resonates with you or not, you have actually previously been presented with some form of evidence or basis for that person to have formed their opinion. I think if you're going to say "No, that doesn't make any sense" you need to explain why those examples don't work, not why you believe yours are better, because that doesn't make for good debating, and it detracts from what was trying to be achieved in the first place. Please be mindful of this and be courteous to others when debating. By all means, please prove that the examples I used were wrong.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 10:24:26 PM by zangetsu468 »
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
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                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
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            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
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RE=Richter Ending

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2018, 10:35:59 PM »
0
Quote
Mina Harker>>>Mina Hakuba? Not that far of a stretch when you consider that the Belnades name came from Sypha's family tree to eventually get Yoko Belnades.

Not sure I understand this. Wilhelmina Murray Harker is of English decent while Mina Hakuba is of Japanese decent. The two families are unrelated, and as far as we know, have never met.

Quote
I do really think that the count needs A better reason to come to the England, other then just to make Vampires, as he has others to do that for him

Dracula is an uncanny tactician. He may have been planning on expanding his forces through legitimate means so as not to arouse suspicion. When we consider all the times that he had been defeated Dracula probably wanted other venues of retreat. He did bring boxes of decrepit earth to England. 10 in total I believe, maybe more. And in the movie it was mentioned that he had purchased 10 houses in rather precise locations. One location we know of was Carfax Abbey which held almost all of the boxes until he was ready to distribute them to the other locations. If we think about it he might have been trying to plant the seeds for Castlevania's resurgence within England, not just Romania. That and he needed to rest in the earth of his homeland in order to regain his evil power. The other reason for coming to England was to acquire Mina, the woman whom Dracula believe was his reborn love Elisabeta. Although he did not learn of this till later.
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2018, 11:21:28 PM »
0
Not sure I understand this. Wilhelmina Murray Harker is of English decent while Mina Hakuba is of Japanese decent. The two families are unrelated, and as far as we know, have never met.
True, I was basically spit-balling because the two names sounded similar. I retract this because bad ideas.

The other reason for coming to England was to acquire Mina, the woman whom Dracula believe was his reborn love Elisabeta. Although he did not learn of this till later.

Movie or novel? I don't recall this being in the novel.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
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                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline Guy Belmont

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2018, 12:35:20 AM »
0
The cost of the few vs the cost of the few that can actually potentially (and do eventually) destroy Dracula.. Hmm, not a bad trade off

Well  yes, but not at the cost of other, and you've given no reason to why they would have to give up the whip for just training, what was it, why?, it would make more sense, to ask the Morris's to keep an eye out, and call them if they needed them. as You can do both. And you have offered no reason for them to just up and leave there post like that. the thing is it has always been presented as the Belmont's Can't touch the whip, but surely it makes more sense to train with the whip. instead of put other at huge risk.


See more on this below.
 It fits, but is it documented anywhere>

Here the Simon's quest game story, she was no mystic but she just turned up out of no where.
here the link
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv2/documents/CV2J.txt

Which they did, but it was entrusted and the Morris clan accepted it.
Unless they were in hiding. Whether you subscribe to the theory or not, they were no where to be found for roughly 200 years. They weren't there when Shanoa fought Dracula, nor were the Morris clan, I guess every hero is an asshole for not being there, right..
well  most likely either 1 the Morris didn't hear about it. 2 most likely Morris who was holder of the whip that gen was still getting ready.
   Again, the most powerful demon slaying family has been directly at risk several times (as stated by yourself). They're not

that's fighting smart.
 
Not when you have no real reason to give the whip away to others  cos there to busy training. when again you can do both. also what sort of training, spans that long. If you'd said looking for a cure , I could have seen more logic to your point, but again that doesn't mean leave the whip behind. The reason has to be they where made to give it up.

Yeah but you are, so don't sugar coat it #sorrynotsorry

To be honest  I find it very odd that your getting this cross that I disagreed with to the point that you've taken it as an attack, no one was sugar coating anything I was saying sorry cos it did really seem as if I was shooting you down.

But all this other stuff is just fan fiction until proof is presented.
All we know is the Belmont's left, there are many ideas but the only real facts are is that they left. So your idea is also fan fiction, as you your self have presented no proof expect to you the idea of them disappearing  to train fits better for you.


be mindful of this and be courteous to others when debating. By all means, please prove that the examples I used were wrong.
I think what this comes down to is that your unhappy that i disagreed with your point, and you ask me to diss prove you, but it makes no snese to just give the whip up when your Richter.

 Its not like the whip had stopped working, he was back to himself. What your saying that you think the belmonts gave up there post, the best demon hunters ever  Just let others die cos they where training, i mean you have't even said what sort of training this is.

 

 You also ask for in  game facts,

 well as far as i know, its known that the belmonts Can't touch the whip till 1999, so this sounds as if they HAD to give it up cos somehting stopped them. Like a magic lock, just passing it down cos there too busy training  is not the same thing. and like i've said,  there would be a away to get in contact with them, via magic or Alucard. and if there was a crisses there not just going to shrug and say, oh well too bad.

 i mean you said it your self julius whent in to battle with a weaken whip, the Belmont's feel that this is there battle And will only leave it to someone else when there is no other way.

You ask for proof, but yourself have not really prsented any sort to back this up,
to me the game has shown time, and time again that the belmonts don't just give up unless they have to.
 So giving up the whip cos there training  makes no sense, what part of that would make it so they couldn't  touch the whip? this is not an attack this me asking you your point.

what this comes down to is that you have your idea and i have mine.
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2018, 02:11:09 AM »
0
@Guy Belmont You clearly are cherry-picking when I've explained my ideas and stated the Belmonts needed to get stronger to kill Dracula once and for all, because you know, he keeps coming back !!?  :rollseyes: #agreetodisagree

"you said it your self julius whent in to battle with a weaken whip"

This is all I'm answering because it's the most ridiculous line in your post and I literally never said this. In AoS' ending Julius states the VK's power is fading, presumably because chaos has now subsided and Soma prevented himself from becoming Dark Lord. Julius goes into the events of DoS with a nerfed VK #facts

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline Guy Belmont

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2018, 09:44:51 AM »
0
@Guy Belmont You clearly are cherry-picking when I've explained my ideas and stated the Belmonts needed to get stronger to kill Dracula once and for all, because you know, he keeps coming back !!?  :rollseyes: #agreetodisagree

"you said it your self julius whent in to battle with a weaken whip"

This is all I'm answering because it's the most ridiculous line in your post and I literally never said this. In AoS' ending Julius states the VK's power is fading, presumably because chaos has now subsided and Soma prevented himself from becoming Dark Lord. Julius goes into the events of DoS with a nerfed VK #facts
Look I was also not going to talk about this anymore but I just have to know,

 the part I don't get,

I'm not talking about Julius, what happens after 1999,  was never in my mind, what happens after that  makes sense, there's no curse involved for the whip to lose power, infect its like its retiring, after a job well done, almost like it can start to wind down after a long hard job.

My understanding of your point was that After SOTN Richter gave up the whip to train, as you have offred no resoan why that would stop them at all.

 My point has come from a place of game fact like you asked, its always  seen it and read when ever it comes up. That they couln't touch the whip,  as in they can't there
Not just passing it on cos they would never do that, as another in game fact, the belmont see this as there fight, no one else this. and unless thay had to via a magic lock out in favoer of them NEVER being cused by evil again, makes the most snese.

 
Thats my Point, we have our own views and thats fine, you disagree with me i disgaree with you. Thats just froums and its bound to happen.

But where does Julius come in to this?again that was after 1999, i was talking about the time before julius retook the whip. So where does it come this part come in?
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2018, 12:08:09 PM »
0
I don't understand what you're asking because I've been answering the same thing all along.

In the radio drama (Japan only) my understanding is that initially Richter stopped using the VK and went into hiding with Annette out of shame. This has been discussed and referenced in this thread https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?topic=9340.0 which also mentions Belmonts not touching the whip.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline X

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2018, 12:09:19 PM »
0
Quote
Movie or novel? I don't recall this being in the novel.

Yeah I didn't find it in the book either (my mistake). I scanned it and the web just to make sure. However I did find that Dracula went after Mina as a sort of revenge against the hunters--to make them think twice about getting in his way should they decide to oppose him.
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