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Offline Lumi Kløvstad

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Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« on: November 25, 2018, 01:18:56 PM »
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Do you think Van Helsing (or his family) has had any contact with the Belmonts? If so, did he know that Quincy Morris was descended from that bloodline?

In the book, Van Helsing was more of a scholar than a vampire hunter proper, but there's no reason that has to be how it always was -- he may have done more direct hunting when he was younger, or his descendants or relatives may have been more the hunter types.

Would you want a game set during the "Belmonts can't use the VK" period starring a Van Helsing? Maybe it could have a Belmont support character using weapons other than the VK (maybe the Undead Killer whip from Portrait of Ruin could return -- I always rationalized it as a flawed attempt by the Belmonts to recreate the Vampire Killer after all).
How not to be a dark lord: the answer to that is a terribly interesting answer that involves an almost Jedi-like adherence to keeping oneself under control and finding ways to be true to yourself in a way that doesn't encourage the worst parts of you to become dangerously exaggerated and instead feeds your better nature. Also, protip: don't fuck with Alchemy or strike up any deals with ancient Japanese Shinigami gods no matter how tempting the deal or how suavely dressed the Shinigami is.

Offline AlexCalvo

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2018, 06:43:09 PM »
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I wrote a pilot in my screen writing class in college for a Castlevania mini series, ended up writing six more episodes for fun.  It was a mix of the stories of OoE, the 64 games,  and CoTM set in the mid 1800s.  A major character was an 18 year old Abraham Van Helsing who was experiencing the supernatural for the first time.  He was a new Ecclesia recruit, along with Carrie Fernandez.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 06:46:20 PM by AlexCalvo »
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13104670/1/Castlevania-Birth-of-the-Dragon

Dracula was not always a monster. He was once a man named Mathias Cronqvist. A flawed, conflicted, genius of a man. How did the educated, aristocratic, crusader who piously served the church become a vampire, and eventually the Dark Lord himself, the opposing force to God? From a very young age terrors and tragedy shaped the man into the king of all evil. This is his story.

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2018, 12:45:05 AM »
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What I wanna know is, how does IGA's LOI origin for Dracula work with Drac being called Vlad Tepes? Like, did Mathias just decide to go under the name Vlad III for a while, or did IGA completely ditch the Bram Stoker tie-in from Bloodlines?
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Offline Lumi Kløvstad

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2018, 03:21:53 AM »
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did IGA completely ditch the Bram Stoker tie-in from Bloodlines?

As far as we know, Portrait of Ruin upheld the connection by doing nothing at all to revise things in that regard. It's a straight up sequel that largely plays the predecessor perfectly straight with the exception of a few twists the original had no way of implementing: overuse of the VK can kill a "impure" blooded Belmont descendant, for example.

That being said, and this is strictly an aside, I do wonder what the whip's operative standards of "pure blood" are, since by the rules of marriages and indeed general reproduction, bloodlines become more and more varied and muddled over generations by design to lessen the chances of dangerous mutations and deformities associated with inbreeding. I highly doubt the Belmonts engage in hardcore incest to keep things "purely Belmont", so by the time Johnny Morris is swinging from chandeliers in World War 1, the Belmonts and the Morrises were probably equally "pure" and mutt-blooded, especially if one ran a DNA test comparing a Belmont and a Morris in 1917 with Leon Belmont from nearly a thousand years earlier. I mean, even if the Morrises were descended from a daughter who didn't become the "Belmont Heir", is her blood and therefore descendants "less pure" for having not been the heir?

These lineage-based magical locks are confusing as heck, and I generally roll my eyes at them for exactly this reason -- such a lock could only work effectively within a few generations of whoever served as the genetic baseline, after which point things get muddied enough that either it doesn't work for anyone at all or it starts working for a whole bunch of unintended false positives. The longer that seal exists, the less reliable it's going to get.

Methinks maybe the Belmonts should have thought that one through a little better.

Or it's a lot more recent, having been placed sometime in the 19th century, in which case... yeah I guess it might still work in WWII. Maaaaybe.

End side rant. Thanks for tuning into yet another episode of "Lumi overthinks absolutely trivial bullshit"!
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 03:25:11 AM by Lumi Kløvstad »
How not to be a dark lord: the answer to that is a terribly interesting answer that involves an almost Jedi-like adherence to keeping oneself under control and finding ways to be true to yourself in a way that doesn't encourage the worst parts of you to become dangerously exaggerated and instead feeds your better nature. Also, protip: don't fuck with Alchemy or strike up any deals with ancient Japanese Shinigami gods no matter how tempting the deal or how suavely dressed the Shinigami is.

Offline X

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2018, 10:04:31 AM »
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Quote
Methinks maybe the Belmonts should have thought that one through a little better.

Haha, no, it's IGA who should have thought about this a bit more. The whole blood thing falls apart when we analyse it up close. If anything the VK should only work for those whom carry the magical properties of the Belmont family blood. And maybe that's why the VK can tell who is of direct descendant and who isn't. Not because of the blood itself, but because of the magic within. Blood changes over time even in direct descendants. Magic on the other hand is something completely different. It is not based in science or biology. As for the Bram Stoker connection, when IGA did his timeline/story he chose to gloss over/ignore some elements while working with other bits. I believe the conflicting parts of LoI and Bloodlines are one of those elements. Nobody can simply shoehorn their own work into something that is already established without inviting contradiction. They must make everything fit like a glove and do-so naturally so that there is NO conflict. It's one of the reasons why I don't recognise LoI as part of the prime CV timeline. LoI would have worked out much better if the Dracula aspect had been left out completely, then there would have been no conflicting elements. But IGA could not help but make things much deeper then they actually needed to be. The Belmont origins would have simply been enough.
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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2018, 10:13:04 AM »
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What I wanna know is, how does IGA's LOI origin for Dracula work with Drac being called Vlad Tepes? Like, did Mathias just decide to go under the name Vlad III for a while, or did IGA completely ditch the Bram Stoker tie-in from Bloodlines?

Oh boy. All of these feelings and opinions stirring in me.

I must leave them in check.


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Offline Nagumo

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2018, 10:17:18 AM »
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What I wanna know is, how does IGA's LOI origin for Dracula work with Drac being called Vlad Tepes? 

Supposedly, it's a case of Meaningful Rename. However, that part of the lore is really underdeveloped.

Offline Lumi Kløvstad

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2018, 06:30:37 PM »
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So, I do want to get into something here: despite the title of this thread, the novel itself is not actually canon.

However, a version (that TVTropes would certainly describe as "Broad Strokes") of those events is.

There are simply too many inconsistencies in Stoker's book to properly fit into any version of Castlevania we've seen yet, things that, if it did fit in, would pretty substantially alter the narrative of the book.

To quote an off-site discussion I was having with PlotTwist:

Quote from: ThePlotTwist
remember when Quincy somehow already a family and a son that the novel never touches upon despite the fact Quincy is looking to marry Lucy Westenra? Remember when he was a Belmont and had a magic whip meant to kill Dracula, but somehow never uses it preferring a measly bowie knife instead? Remember when these events took place five years after when the novel indicates they should? Remember when there was supposedly a spanish family with a magical spear that Quincy should be acquainted with, but somehow never mentions in the novel? Remember when Dracula was in fact bent on annihilating the entire human race and not just vampirizing them? Remember when Elizabeth Bathory was Dracula's niece despite the fact Vlad Tepes died  nearly a hundred years prior to her birth? Etc etc I could go on the entire week, and these are all "non-IGA" contradictions.

There's a TON of contradictions between the book and Castlevania Bloodlines alone, never mind any other games made in the series.

So, only a version of the book's events (and a pretty loosely fitting and unfamiliar one at that) takes place prior to Bloodlines and Portrait of Ruin.

"We can provisionally entertain half a dozen contradictory versions of an event if we feel either that it does not greatly matter, or that there is a category attainable in which all the contradictions are reconciled.
— George Bernard Shaw, preface to Androcles and the Lion
"

In fact, let's look at that Broad Strokes page really quick, because they've got several somethings on Castlevania! And about this very topic!



Ah, I love my little nerd community over there.
How not to be a dark lord: the answer to that is a terribly interesting answer that involves an almost Jedi-like adherence to keeping oneself under control and finding ways to be true to yourself in a way that doesn't encourage the worst parts of you to become dangerously exaggerated and instead feeds your better nature. Also, protip: don't fuck with Alchemy or strike up any deals with ancient Japanese Shinigami gods no matter how tempting the deal or how suavely dressed the Shinigami is.

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2018, 08:23:00 PM »
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What I wanna know is, how does IGA's LOI origin for Dracula work with Drac being called Vlad Tepes? Like, did Mathias just decide to go under the name Vlad III for a while, or did IGA completely ditch the Bram Stoker tie-in from Bloodlines?

It's never spelled out 100%, however, we know that Mathias is not Vlad. I read this as the historical figure of Vlad dying and Mathias seizing the opportunity to take "his throne" and indefinitely go under the title of Vlad Tepes i.e. Whatever remained of his status and title which perpetuated the contemporary myth of 'Dracula'. This would explain why Mathias never took the title of Dracula during LOI and why by Castlevania III, he had. It also explains the portrait of Vlad in Rondo, the image of Vlad 'Power of Sire' use item in SOTN, and the fact that in the SOTN manual it lists Dracula 'Vlad' Tepes as his name.

It makes a lot more sense than those outlandish theories that go Gabriel>Mathias>Vlad>Dracula, or assuming that Mathias simply taking that name.

Interestingly enough Mathias Corvinus was King of Hungary during Vlad's life. I wonder if this may have influenced Mathias' name in LOI, hmmm..
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
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                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
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                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
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Offline Abnormal Freak

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2018, 02:23:00 AM »
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Mathias assuming Vlad's name makes more sense than somehow becoming the son of Vlad the Dragon, but it's still a weirdly underdeveloped plot point. It really just comes across as IGA having watched Coppola's Dracula and wanting to do his own twist on the prologue.



I highly doubt the Belmonts engage in hardcore incest to keep things "purely Belmont"

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Offline Guy Belmont

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2018, 07:56:35 AM »
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I always thought that  Van Helsing was some where down the line was related to the Belmont's.
I had it in my work that they where the last to keep the whip until the Belmont's retuned. And it makes sense really, as he was a BIG part of the book, sooo its no shock that he would have a link to the Belmonts.

I never saw it playing out just like the book.
it makes a ton more sense just being an adaptation of the book like the 1992 film.

It wasn't  really anything like the book at all, BUT it did have hints of it. Like having Arthur Holmwood in it, and that sort of thing. And I think its the same when it comes to CV, I don't think it follows the book 110%. 
And thats ok, I think it fits better then trying to fit the two tougher.


As far as we know, Portrait of Ruin upheld the connection by doing nothing at all to revise things in that regard. It's a straight up sequel that largely plays the predecessor perfectly straight with the exception of a few twists the original had no way of implementing: overuse of the VK can kill a "impure" blooded Belmont descendant, for example.

That being said, and this is strictly an aside, I do wonder what the whip's operative standards of "pure blood" are, since by the rules of marriages and indeed general reproduction, bloodlines become more and more varied and muddled over generations by design to lessen the chances of dangerous mutations and deformities associated with inbreeding. I highly doubt the Belmonts engage in hardcore incest to keep things "purely Belmont", so by the time Johnny Morris is swinging from chandeliers in World War 1, the Belmonts and the Morrises were probably equally "pure" and mutt-blooded, especially if one ran a DNA test comparing a Belmont and a Morris in 1917 with Leon Belmont from nearly a thousand years earlier. I mean, even if the Morrises were descended from a daughter who didn't become the "Belmont Heir", is her blood and therefore descendants "less pure" for having not been the heir?

These lineage-based magical locks are confusing as heck, and I generally roll my eyes at them for exactly this reason -- such a lock could only work effectively within a few generations of whoever served as the genetic baseline, after which point things get muddied enough that either it doesn't work for anyone at all or it starts working for a whole bunch of unintended false positives. The longer that seal exists, the less reliable it's going to get.

Methinks maybe the Belmonts should have thought that one through a little better.

Or it's a lot more recent, having been placed sometime in the 19th century, in which case... yeah I guess it might still work in WWII. Maaaaybe.

End side rant. Thanks for tuning into yet another episode of "Lumi overthinks absolutely trivial bullshit"!

And its a simple aswer really God's will, science  has 100% no place here.

Anyone who was from the main line was a pure belmont, 
like  let say that  that leon had  a sister or brother, and they went on to make the morris family. 

BUT leon who got the whip and made it into the Vampire Killer would be considerd a part of the main line.  thats the thing you're missing. HE made the  whip complate and that is what makes his line pure. Its all about the Whip.

Thus no matter how long the line whent or who they married as long as they came from leon. There a pure blooded Belmont.

« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 02:17:24 PM by Guy Belmont »
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2018, 02:39:35 PM »
0
The thing to remember is, as I believe has been pointed out already, a version of the Dracula novel's events occur.

For one thing Mina is Quincy's only potential love interest, it's clear that nothing happens there. Therefore due to the events surrounding Quincy in the book, it means he's not aware of his son John Morris existing, nor are we informed who John's mother is.

Quincy isn't known to carry the VK during the events of the book. However, there's nothing to say he doesn't know about it or doesn't possess it. One would assume if he had it, he would've used it on Dracula.

Quincy does however land the killing blow, which is significant enough to tie in his descendants.

Again, some assumptions need to be made to make it work, but it can definitely work.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
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Offline Guy Belmont

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2018, 02:53:06 PM »
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The thing to remember is, as I believe has been pointed out already, a version of the Dracula novel's events occur.

For one thing Mina is Quincy's only potential love interest, it's clear that nothing happens there. Therefore due to the events surrounding Quincy in the book, it means he's not aware of his son John Morris existing, nor are we informed who John's mother is.

Quincy isn't known to carry the VK during the events of the book. However, there's nothing to say he doesn't know about it or doesn't possess it. One would assume if he had it, he would've used it on Dracula.

Quincy does however land the killing blow, which is significant enough to tie in his descendants.

Again, some assumptions need to be made to make it work, but it can definitely work.
Well that's my point A  version of the novel's events occur, we have NO idea how it went down in The world of CV. it makes more sense for it to  edited for it to fit in with cv, as the book was never made with the game in mind, And I feel that it would  work a lot better then trying to mash the em both up. As there both very much there own thing.
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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2018, 04:59:15 PM »
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Again, some assumptions need to be made to make it work, but it can definitely work.

Yup. Hence the use of the George Bernard Shaw quotation.

It can work... just not as we remember the book working.
How not to be a dark lord: the answer to that is a terribly interesting answer that involves an almost Jedi-like adherence to keeping oneself under control and finding ways to be true to yourself in a way that doesn't encourage the worst parts of you to become dangerously exaggerated and instead feeds your better nature. Also, protip: don't fuck with Alchemy or strike up any deals with ancient Japanese Shinigami gods no matter how tempting the deal or how suavely dressed the Shinigami is.

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Re: Since Bram Stoker's novel is part of the IGA timeline
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2018, 05:15:57 PM »
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Is Dracula The Un-Dead part of the Castlevania timeline?

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