Topic: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo

[Ahasverus]

The Over-reacting level of this thread is overly ridiculous.

This.
At this point we'll (you'll) be considered worse than Sonic fans

CV is successful at konami's eyes now, bad luck for those who wanted to stay in the past, but there's always Megaman, it's the same shit since '85 

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

At this point we'll (you'll) be considered worse than Sonic fans

And what is wrong with Sonic fans exactly?

As a sonic fan myself your line does draw me towards posting towards it.

Sonic fans as of late have been MUCH more pleased with the product (minus Sonic the hedgehog 4).

And its all due to the fact that Sega has actually been LISTENED to what the fans wanted.

Fans wanted Sega to get rid of the lame gimmicks (werehog stages from unleashed) and keep the awesome day time stages from unleashed.

And you know what we got?

Sonic Colors.

And its has by far been one of the most well received Sonic games in a long time.

And for the anniversary of Sonic the hedgehog you know what we got?

A awesome gift in the form of Sonic Generations which gives you the best of the old Sonic and the new Sonic all in one game.

So please do not compare this situation with Castlevania to the FORMER situation that was going on with Sonic. atleast Sega eventually started to listen to the fans and listen to what they wanted. and to top it off they actually gave their fans a anniversary game.

[Flame]

The Sonic Fanbase is notorious for hating it's source almost as much as Star Wars fans. Bitching nonstop since Heroes, and generally never agreeing over anything.

Until Colors. And now Generations.

[KaZudra]

Personally, though as Bitchy and Immature some of are on Castlevania's Issues...

We can't top how disgustedly Moronically Corrupt Sonic "Fans" are, those people simply cannot accept their classic game plummeting into mediocrity while also acquiring some cool elements along the way (which shows in Generations), they simply Bitch about whatever like SEGA can't experiment with their own fucking game, they should be happy that SEGA still give sonic love and has redeemed himself with Colors and Generations.

Castlevania fans on the other hand, while a certain few Angrier individuals simply cannot comprehend the properties of a reboot, most of the problems with the fans aren't really mediocre games, its actually mediocre subplots introduced so late in the mythos that some of us either unquestionably follow or some of us just raise the bullshit flag.
but what hurting us the most, Konami has been blowing up on one current franchise, Metal Gear Solid, it's almost to the point of butt-sniffing.
Showing no intent to effortly add to the franchise's classic storyline and unwillingly try to expand on the New storyline (with the exception of Cox, who seems to be the ONLY one who cares about CV) it looks like we just suffer from ruined Expectations.


But on a last note, Leave Cox alone, he's the only one who seems to care about castlevania and Lords of Shadow was Awesome, and at LEAST it was a REAL game, what did Konami do?

Pachislot 3, something that looks 99% Recylced and makes CoD Mw3 looks like all new material.

[crisis]

i think it's cute how Flame finds a way to shoehorn megaman in any topic

i wanna be like Kamui Zero when i grow up..

[thernz]

why are we caring more about story than gameplay
in a game series that never cared about its story

baby, i just want a game that expands on the design elements and potential of the titles i loved. well, okay, that's dark souls. i think i'm pretty content at the moment then.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

It is precisely because it never cared, that people do care.  It's something which it's lacking, because that which it has, it has lackluster of.
Like any aspect of the game, it's a good idea if it's improved and it certainly wouldn't take away from the game if it did.

[KaZudra]

i think it's cute how Flame finds a way to shoehorn megaman in any topic

i wanna be like Kamui Zero when i grow up..

I wanna be like macho man Randy Savage..... But I require LOTS of cocaine.

[Flame]

i think it's cute how Flame finds a way to shoehorn megaman in any topic

I try. <3

[cecil-kain]

Why does it have to be? this is what im talking about. You must understand, Brands like Mega Man and Castlevania are in a tough spot these days because they never truly evolved into the third dimension. This can be traced back to the PS1/PS2 era. the few 3D games they made, were either bombs, or recieved poorly, or both. Both mega Man Legends games literally put Capcom in the red financially. So it was a fight to make a Legends 3, and that eventually, even that was cancelled. Mega Man X7 was a bomb because it was not only an unfinished product, but had bad decisions in it. The mixing of 2D and 3D was what pretty much broke the game.

Castlevania 64 was received poorly for basically being an unfinished product, and overshadowed by the superior 2D game released at the same time. LoI and CoD have fans, but they were both rather bland and not quite up to snuff with other games out at the time. In the end, we dont know how Konami sees them financially. They saw that 2D IGAvanias sold best, so they kept making those. Since the hardware evolved past 2D sprites, they moved to handhelds, which still used them. They made DXC. but it bombed because of the platform. So, they kept at 2D sprite based games. Judgement bombed due to the game type and art direction. Recently, they decided to allow Konami Europe work with mercurysteam on making a big budget Castlevania. To try and bring in a new crowd, they decided on a reboot, so you needed no prior knowledge going in.

If that fails, you can be assured that there WONT be another big budget Castlevania ever again for a LOOOONG time.

To tide the older fans over, they also tried to let IGA make HD, as a type I imagine, of experiment, to see how a multiplayer coop Castlevaia game would work in 2D. They also made The Adventure Rebirth, a pretty high quality 2D remake of Castlevania The Adventure, aimed especially at those who enjoyed classicvanias. it was chock full of old and beloved tunes, and not only did it LOOK great, but it played great.

Long story short, this IS their own fault, since they never properly embraced 3D, and stayed with the safe 2D. As a result, Castlevania has become not too profitable anymore. All they can sell are small 2D handheld games, sprite based games. That's pathetic, so they try to do what they can in 2D, experimenting with different things, (Co op, a Wiiware remake that doesnt really follow any particular system restrictions at all and instead tries to look like a classicvania, but with a few modern flavor available through the technology.)

But we have to support their 3D efforts better if we want anything done in HD. we have to prove to them that Castlevania is profitable in 3D/HD consoles. If they become more at ease with making HD and 3D Castlevania, then we will definitely see more things done with the Classic series eventually. Probably starting with remakes if anything.

So were Classicvanias.because again, 3D console games have failed or been "meh" at best.

 Hardly. If only because it is a 2.5D game. Otherwise, SoTN is still high quality, even today, and still outclasses most 2Dvanias that came after.
That's pretty ungrateful. You got a 2D classicvania, with pretty good production values, on a home console. That is far more than what we have gotten for a while. You have to give this time. Its a ladder. from 2D remake DL game, to higher fish from there.
So was Mega Man. Mega man is one of the videogame Pioneers. It was the first game to allow players to choose what stage they wanted in whatever order they wanted. It was also high end. Especially once it went to the SNES and PS1.
Dont get me wrong, i dont particularly LIKE 9 and 10, specifically because they are all about trying to imitate Mega Man 2, the now most overrated mega man game ever.  10 was far more original and did far more than 9 did, but I am right where you are with it- rather than making a new HD game, they make 8 bit rehashware, etc etc. But for the moment, it was not a bad idea. It was a sort of revival of the brand, back in classic, back to classic's roots. The problem comes when they start doing ONLY that. But in this case, there is no way for Fans to try and support 3D mega man, since we dont have something like LoS to support.   
 
DXC was still just a 2.5D game on the PSP. It certainly can not compete with something like God of War or Call of Duty or Gears of War. 2D games are dying out, or becoming not as commonplace, relegated to DL status.
Nintendo also shits money. They are probably the RICHEST of any game developer.

Did you forget this?



It's not just a joke. It's practically true. they HAVE the monetary freedom to do whatever they want. Nintendo is also headed up BY an actual former game dev, unlike most.

I actually agree with quite a few of the points that you're making here, but there's one key viewpoint we seem to disagree on.  Can you explain *why* brands like Castlevania and Megaman *must* evolve into the 3rd dimention?  Can you explain *why* 2-D Castlevanias migrated onto portables instead of using the power of home console hardware to reach their full potential?  Can you explain *why* the 2-D fans should continue supporting 3-D games, instead of demanding a serious 2-D investment for home consoles?  This really is the 3-D bias at its best --and it's the biggest challenge Operation: Akumajo is really up against.

For over 15 years, this industry has had a pervasive bias against the 2-D artform --believing it was too "old-fashioned" to sell in market dominated by trendy consumers.  I cited the sales of New Super Mario Bros Wii, specifically to call that bias out into the open.  The era of "making the leap" has long passed --it's just not fashionable or trendy anymore.  Now that 3-D games have completely flooded the market, consumers are open to a 2-D renaissance.

To say that 2-D is dead, when a game like New Super Mario Bros Wii sells over 22 million copies, is disingenuous at best.  As of right now that figure beats the entire God of War series --with its 17.57 million hard copies sold, respectively.  Feel free to verify the numbers gamrreview.vgchartz.com  And yes, Nintendo does shit money --if you sold a game as successful as NSMBW, you would too!  :-D

The whole point of my Rebirth critique was that Konami *chose* to continue embracing all the stagnation we've seen since SotN.  There was no serious investment to make the most of the hardware --and likewise, hardly any interest in pushing the game to reach its fullest potential.  It would have made just as much sense to put Rebirth out on the DS.

[Foffy]

Megaman, it's the same shit since '85 

I think you mean '87, or is that some type of potshot implying the games need to enter a time paradox to never be conceived.

[Flame]

Can you explain *why* brands like Castlevania and Megaman *must* evolve into the 3rd dimention?

Have you seen any quality high end mega man or Castlevania games in the vein of what fans want? (LoS aside) Have you seen anything better than 2D games? anything wiyh higher quality? have yo seen how unprofitable the brands have become?

Thats why. This isnt 1991. It's 2011. Soon to be 2012. The technology is there. Technology has EVOLVED past 2D. It has evolved past the "bit" wars. There is amazing Technology available for games, to do things that was never possible before. We have to embrace that. Metroid embraced the third dimension with Metroid Prime, and for it's time it was amazing. It took the formula of 2D Metroid, and successfully upgraded it to take advantage of the current technology. So did Mario. So did Zelda. Those franchises are now part of public consciousness. They are veterans that have survived their eras and are still around. Mega Man never successfully transitioned it's formula to the third dimension. While all it's fellow games updated to 3D, Mega Man stayed 2D. It's 3D games never sold too well or were received blandly. Look where it is now.

Castlevania never fully embraced the 3rd Dimension successfully either. it's first attempt was poorly received, and it didnt try again until the PS2 era, and those were also received blandly.

when the 2D entries in a series sell better than 3D, the series doesnt fully embrace change, and modern technology.  And as the 2D sprite based game is dying out, being replaced by newer technology, those games too, find themselves in a pinch, because the crutch they have held onto to continue, is no longer too viable.

For over 15 years, this industry has had a pervasive bias against the 2-D artform --believing it was too "old-fashioned" to sell in market dominated by trendy consumers.  I cited the sales of New Super Mario Bros Wii, specifically to call that bias out into the open.   

its not a bias. it's called progress. Why make a game with lesser technology when you can push the envelope? I dont get you. You are all about HD high quality Castlevanias, but then you go and say something like this. Castlevanoia can NOT stay 2D forever, or it WILL die.

Again, Nintendo has the monetary freedom to do whatever the fuck they want. and Mario is a franchise that has been incredibly successful, if not the MOST successful. It has had many 3D games, all of which have sold well. so they decided to do what Mega man did. A retro revival. but in full HD 2D. but dont forget they OWN the system it's on. SO there's no licensing fees, no nothing/. they own the franchise, they own the system.

The era of "making the leap" has long passed --it's just not fashionable or trendy anymore.

Since when? It never will pass. It is always about who has the better console.

Now that 3-D games have completely flooded the market, consumers are open to a 2-D renaissance.

You expect too much.

The whole point of my Rebirth critique was that Konami *chose* to continue embracing all the stagnation we've seen since SotN.

Stagnation... Do tell, what about it is stagnant? I see brand new sprites, brand new areas, original ideas, and they didnt reuse the same spritres since Rondo. The reuse was so minimal you dont notice it. That's not stagnation. It's progress. It's a PSX quality game, with bright colors and a great soundtrack, on a home console. You should be practically worshipping this game as a step in the right direction.

There was no serious investment to make the most of the hardware

It makes pretty good use of the hardware. Or do you dislike it because it doesnt have polygons?

and likewise, hardly any interest in pushing the game to reach its fullest potential.  It would have made just as much sense to put Rebirth out on the DS.

But they didnt put it on the DS. they put it on the Wii.  That's what matters.

Jesus you are so damn pretentious. You expect Konami to cater exclusively to YOUR tastes. That is all i get from Operation Akumajo. It isnt some big fan movement, It's you voicing YOUR opinions on what YOU think Konami should be doing for YOU, because YOU didnt like Lords of Shadow.

You have forgotten that Konami needs to make money too. They are a business. They make decisions that will make them money. If they see the brand isnt as profitable, they take less risks. If they think it will be profitable, they make bigger risks. (Lords of Shadow)
 

I want you to tell my why YOU think Konami should do the things you are suggesting. WHAT exactly would you suggest Konami do? and WHY should they do it? Humor me here. and remember they are a business and need to make a profit.

[A-Yty]

I'm not one to say Castlevania can only work in 2D, but saying that 3D is inevitable progress is kind of like how they thought photography would make painting obsolete.

[Kusanagi]

Have you seen any quality high end mega man or Castlevania games in the vein of what fans want? (LoS aside) Have you seen anything better than 2D games? anything wiyh higher quality? have yo seen how unprofitable the brands have become?

...

Thats why. This isnt 1991. It's 2011. Soon to be 2012. The technology is there. Technology has EVOLVED past 2D. It has evolved past the "bit" wars. There is amazing Technology available for games, to do things that was never possible before. We have to embrace that. Metroid embraced the third dimension with Metroid Prime, and for it's time it was amazing. It took the formula of 2D Metroid, and successfully upgraded it to take advantage of the current technology. So did Mario. So did Zelda. Those franchises are now part of public consciousness. They are veterans that have survived their eras and are still around. Mega Man never successfully transitioned it's formula to the third dimension. While all it's fellow games updated to 3D, Mega Man stayed 2D. It's 3D games never sold too well or were received blandly. Look where it is now.

...
 You are all about HD high quality Castlevanias, but then you go and say something like this. Castlevanoia can NOT stay 2D forever, or it WILL die.

Ok, now I don't mind the "progress" to 3D, but one thing that should still be appreciated is 2D games and 2D artwork. Most consumers/game companies now-a-days seem more concerned for looks over actual gameplay, that's pretty much why I gave up gaming for a while (and for that reason among others is why Keiji Inafune left capcom). Just because a game is 3D doesn't make it any better than a 2D game.

Take a look at Rayman Origins for example, the game looks beautiful and plays amazingly. Castlevania Harmony of Despair, despite it not matching every persons tastes, I still find a blast to play. Street Fighter 2 HD remix, they could have simply made it 3D and be done with it, but they choose 2D HD sprites. 2D visuals can still be breathtaking, and that's also pushing the limits of the system but in a different direction. Given two out of the three I've mentioned were DL titles, but sticking strictly with the 3D base doesn't always guarantee success, nor does sticking with just 2D. The whole package must deliver (in order of importance in my opinion):
1) Game play
2) Content and re-playability
3) Visuals/Story

When a company's first thought is only profit, us gamers won't feel the dedication or hard work put into the game (Which for some franchises, can easily be seen).Whether that presentation is in 2D or 3D it doesn't matter. If the whole package can deliver a fun and entertaining experience, that will sell the game better. Symphony of the Night for example has always been held as one of the greatest Castlevania's of all time, first on the PS1, then was ported to the PSP, PS3, and the XBox 360. Many people still play this game to this day, mostly because the whole package was amazing. The attention to detail, gameplay, incorporation of both 2D and 3D elements, the story, even the cheesy original voice actors; all of that contributed to making that amazing game. To be fair, I'll also look at Lords of Shadow; fun gameplay (though a little like GoW, which isn't bad), interesting story line (from what I had seen at least), and great visuals. The only difference is that it's supposedly rebooting the original series, and that part isn't swinging too well with the fanbase.

Im not going to argue that Castlevania should stay away from 3D entirely (I also enjoyed Lord's of Shadow for what it's worth), but 2D games still have their pull and their appealing points. I personally don't believe the 2D games will die, maybe in the industry (and that's a pretty big maybe), but certainly not from those who appreciate the art style. If done right, 2D games can still sell well alongside their 3D counterparts, only issue is as you said: "If they see the brand isnt as profitable, they take less risks. If they think it will be profitable, they make bigger risks". It's a risk to stay just in 3D, all the same to stay just in 2D. That is, if visuals/profit is all they care about.

They only need place the time and effort towards making a game - as a whole - be an enjoyable and fun experience. If they can do that, regardless of 2D or 3D, I can buy into that game. And Im pretty certain a good amount of other people can as well.

[cecil-kain]

Have you seen any quality high end mega man or Castlevania games in the vein of what fans want? (LoS aside) Have you seen anything better than 2D games? anything wiyh higher quality? have yo seen how unprofitable the brands have become?

Thats why. This isnt 1991. It's 2011. Soon to be 2012. The technology is there. Technology has EVOLVED past 2D. It has evolved past the "bit" wars. There is amazing Technology available for games, to do things that was never possible before. We have to embrace that. Metroid embraced the third dimension with Metroid Prime, and for it's time it was amazing. It took the formula of 2D Metroid, and successfully upgraded it to take advantage of the current technology. So did Mario. So did Zelda. Those franchises are now part of public consciousness. They are veterans that have survived their eras and are still around. Mega Man never successfully transitioned it's formula to the third dimension. While all it's fellow games updated to 3D, Mega Man stayed 2D. It's 3D games never sold too well or were received blandly. Look where it is now.

Castlevania never fully embraced the 3rd Dimension successfully either. it's first attempt was poorly received, and it didnt try again until the PS2 era, and those were also received blandly.

I'm not disputing your analysis about games that have struggled with their 3-D transitions --that's not the issue.  I was probing you for bias.  So to answer my question, you believe hi-end technologies are just too powerful to be wasted on lowly 2-D gameplay, because 3-D equals progress and is therefore superior by default --am I correct?

when the 2D entries in a series sell better than 3D, the series doesnt fully embrace change, and modern technology.  And as the 2D sprite based game is dying out, being replaced by newer technology, those games too, find themselves in a pinch, because the crutch they have held onto to continue, is no longer too viable.

Super Mario 64 practically invented the 3-D platformer, and yet we still have the 22 million sold by New Super Mario Bros Wii.  And I should have clarified earlier 2-D gameplay is the issue --I'm not talking strictly about sprites.  And I don't really mean to harp on NSWBW as much as I am --that just happens to be the best example.  We could just as easily talk about the Paper Mario games, Sonic Generations, Donkey Kong Country Returns, or Little Big Planet --and the list goes on...

its not a bias. it's called progress. Why make a game with lesser technology when you can push the envelope? I dont get you. You are all about HD high quality Castlevanias, but then you go and say something like this. Castlevanoia can NOT stay 2D forever, or it WILL die.

2-D gameplay is an artform.  Do we stop painting just because we can sculpt?  You talk about progress --since when is it progress to abandon an art?

Again, Nintendo has the monetary freedom to do whatever the fuck they want. and Mario is a franchise that has been incredibly successful, if not the MOST successful. It has had many 3D games, all of which have sold well. so they decided to do what Mega man did. A retro revival. but in full HD 2D. but dont forget they OWN the system it's on. SO there's no licensing fees, no nothing/. they own the franchise, they own the system.

All true.  Nintendo reached the pinnacle of success, because they understood that leaders of industry don't follow trends set by the market --leaders of industry set trends for the market to follow.  Konami could become just as successful as Nintendo, if they had a little more vision and a lot more ambition.

Since when? It never will pass. It is always about who has the better console.You expect too much.

"Making the leap" was fashionable when it was new.  Remember this is a trendy industry, and there's certainly nothing new about Konami trying to make Castlevania work in 3-D.

Stagnation... Do tell, what about it is stagnant? I see brand new sprites, brand new areas, original ideas, and they didnt reuse the same spritres since Rondo. The reuse was so minimal you dont notice it. That's not stagnation. It's progress. It's a PSX quality game, with bright colors and a great soundtrack, on a home console. You should be practically worshipping this game as a step in the right direction.

The ambition is stagnant.  You've sang a few legitimate praises that I actually agree with, but Rebirth was intended to be a 16-bit/PSX quality game --just like we've been playing on handhelds for the past 10 years.  How can you call that progress?

It makes pretty good use of the hardware. Or do you dislike it because it doesnt have polygons?But they didnt put it on the DS. they put it on the Wii.  That's what matters.

Never said I didn't like Rebirth, I can point out the flaws and enjoy it all the same.  I've been too busy explaining and defending my critique  to give credit where credit is due --but you've covered the merits quite nicely.  I'll go on to say though that the stage designs are amongst the best of the classicvania style.

Jesus you are so damn pretentious. You expect Konami to cater exclusively to YOUR tastes. That is all i get from Operation Akumajo. It isnt some big fan movement, It's you voicing YOUR opinions on what YOU think Konami should be doing for YOU, because YOU didnt like Lords of Shadow.

I understand you're offended and you're trying to personalize this.  But the fact is that 90% Operation: Akumajo's mission statement was inspired by poll results taken on this very forum.  And like I mentioned in an earlier post, I was looking for help putting this operation together from day one.  You can't expect one person to do all the work and get flawless results.  By the way, Operation: Akumajo currently has 278 other members, presumably because they agree with the mission statement.  And I'm glad you brought up Lords of Shadow again.  Since so many critics aren't paying any attention whatsoever --I'll post the first paragraph of the Mission Statement right here.

-----------------------------------------------------

We are an activist community dedicated to preserving the heart and soul of Castlevania as we have known it for 25 years. We fully embrace the legacy of 2-D action-platforming, as well as the legendary rivalry between Count Dracula and the Belmont Clan. We have named ourselves "Akumajo" in honor of Castlevania's Japanese origins, but also as a counterpoint to Konami's recent attempt to reboot and westernize the Castlevania brand. Although we accept Lords of Shadow as a fine game on its own merits, we cannot accept the desecration it brings to the Akumajo mythology. Therefore, we reject the game as a reboot, and encourage Konami to reposition it as a separate universe that can coexist with a continuing line of Akumajo Dracula games.

------------------------------------------------------

As for hating Lords of Shadow, feel free to check my PSN profile.

You have forgotten that Konami needs to make money too. They are a business. They make decisions that will make them money. If they see the brand isnt as profitable, they take less risks. If they think it will be profitable, they make bigger risks. (Lords of Shadow)

Pushing mediocre 3-D games over and over was more than risky --it was reckless and I daresay damaging.  Lords of Shadow was definitely an Ace in the hole.

Its groups like you that are keeping Castlevania where it is, and CAUSING this stagnation.

Respectfully disagree.  Castlevania's been stagnating for a decade, we've only been around a few months.  Are there any other groups like Operation: Akumajo?