Topic: So I'm now replaying the first Lords of Shadow

[Lumi Kløvstad]

This time it's on PC with all the grafix turned up to eleven instead of a potato PS3. But I have some thoughts.

One: WOW. Gabriel Belmont is the gruntiest climber in videogame history. It seriously bothers me how much this man grunts when he's climbing and shimmying along narrow ledges. It bothers me even more that they sound like they were recorded by an entirely different voice actor.

Two: This is hands down the best combat system in any Castlevania, full stop. It's actually quite simple to master, but still requires skill and situational awareness to stay badass at, and it punishes carelessness. It's no Bloodborne or Dark Souls, but the learning curve is excellent and it does a great job of respecting the player's skill levels. My only gripe is that enemy telegraphs for regular vs power attacks are inadequately differentiated about half the time, causing me to reflexively block when I ought to dodge and vice versa, and this game's combat system shines brightest when you can play it on pure instinct and reflex.

Two (and a half): I like that the combat system gives me OPTIONS. Once you hit a certain level of skill, you can elect to tell the game's notions of how you should fight to go screw themselves with a cactus, barring certain boss fights and mega-mooks that can only be defeated in one particular manner. At this point my block and counter game is so strong I often forget that I even have magic or subweapons, but the game is relatively generous on magic and ammo drops so really the emphasis on how you fight is entirely up to you.

Three: Atmosphere. GODDAMN. I haven't played a Castlevania game that sets the stage visually and aurally this well since Curse of Darkness, and this one easily makes my top five for atmosphere.

Three (and a half): This game released in 2013 yet on PC with all the graphics maxed out, it's clear MercurySteam put their heart and souls into making this thing look damn fine. I'm still wowed by the graphics like I was on day one. And as if that wasn't enough, the sound design is still sharp as a knife in my studio headphones.

Four: This is my fourth playthrough of the game, and it FINALLY feels like a Castlevania game. Like, a proper one. Not in the manner of any of the more iconic games do, but in the way that Castlevania 64/Legacy of Darkness did or Symphony of the Night did at release: something that take bold strikes at the formula and changes the vast majority of it but still manages to preserve just enough that it feels, against all possible odds, that it belongs. That being said, setting it in it's own universe was one of the best production decisions MercurySteam might have possibly made. Imagine the brouhaha if they'd tried to wedge this plot into Iga's already convoluted canon!

Five: This is mostly a gripe about the whole LOS saga, but whatevs. I'm mad that the Lords of Shadow universe never produced decent side-stories (or any at all). Given the similarity in appearance and tone to that of The Witcher and other dark fantasy cycles, this was a world and history that was begging to be explored further, but we don't even get the flashcards version due to how the nature of the saga's narrative myopically focuses on Gabriel long past the point where he's interesting as a protaganist -- he'd have been more effective as a tragic anti-villain who opposes other playable heroes like Simon, Alucard, and Victor, who in their comparatively brief times onscreen hint at far more interesting viewpoints than what we were handed. In particular, the father-son relationship between Alucard and Dracula would have been much better explored from Alucard's perspective. In addition, we know NOTHING about anything else happening that has nothing to do with Gabriel. Like, what was the Brotherhood's War on Dracula like? How many campaigns did it involve? Did they lay siege to other fortresses as they worked their way towards Castlevania? How must it have felt to have been the very last Brotherhood Corpse that Trevor found on his way to fight Dracula, to have gotten so far and trip at the finish line? Or those Brotherhood Knights who made it all the way to Zobek's lair before Gabriel did? They had to have been badasses or they wouldn't have gotten anywhere NEAR as far as they did, but we just pick up a third-of-a-page scroll or a gem from them and head on our merry ways. Lords of Shadow 2 has many memorials and plaques that hint at a fabulously rich history with a wealth of side-story material, but this is all only ever hinted at. We never see any of it.

That makes me an angry panda.



Anyway. Had to get that all off my chest.














And seriously guys, Gabriel grunts a LOT.

[zangetsu468]

Four out of five isn't bad, considering narrative was never CV's most redeeming factor.

With the direction of LOS1, I believe they shouldn't have introduced Satan as the final boss. It didn't need to be God/ Angel vs Devil struggle/ theme (aside from the Lords of Shadow themselves leaving behind dark versions of themselves), because the game was set in its own world which felt foreign to anything we knew. 

General rule of thumb when writing is that you don't introduce new ideas into a conclusion. It would have been better imo if Satan was left out of it, there was no Devil mask, the God mask (and Gabe thinking it would bring Marie back) could have stayed,  Zobek was the final boss with a final form resembling Death (being Lord of the Necromancers), Marie could have died some other way (not by axe-wielding Gabriel ).

Gabriel was an already complex enough character, the story needed to be more simple without being dumbed down too much.

PS: As much as I actually liked the DLC, and fighting TF1 - who was a much better boss than Satan - this extension of how LOS1 really ended was overly complicated in context to the ending, which implied that Gabriel in his downtrodden state may just put the Devil Mask back on and this may have something to do with the ending because the fucking thing was zoomed in 10x while the credits were scrolling. Yet again, this idea was ditched in favour of TF1's power and Gabriel becoming a Vampire by completely draining Laura of her blood.. Uyyyygh... There's no need to over-complicate things.

[Dracula9]

My problem with the plot isn't so much that Satan's present as antag, but that the relationships of protag and antag feel shoehorned in the entire time.

Zobek was the bad guy all along? NO WAAAAAAAAY that wasn't obvious at all four levels in.

Satan coming out of nowhere is just an extension of why Zobek's poorly-written. It's just kind of expected of the player to see the glaringly obvious hints and SURPRISE TWIST HE'S THE BAD GUY NOW moments and react to them as if invested. Which they weren't.

If, as you said, more backstory and side story was explored beyond mere hints, then we would have had plenty of room to build up to Satan being the Big Bad behind everything, rather than him showing up out of nowhere so Obvious Villain McTraitorface can get a comeuppance that feels just as forced as his antagonism.

I don't mind Satan being involved, but I DO mind how he's involved and the way he's written to be involved.

'Cause I gotta be honest--LOS1 has hands-down the best depiction of the guy I think I've ever seen in a game. Not a big hulking monster, just a dark and unnervingly beautiful deceiver. As it should be. IMO Satan himself shouldn't be what's intimidating in fiction, it's the idea of him and what he's capable of that should be where any intimidation factor comes into play.

Other than that I pretty much agree with your other points verbatim. My only real gripe with the combat system is the over-reliance on fake difficulty elements that deliberately drag out half the fight--how many enemies spam the hell out of the white AoE dust cloud that knocks you back if it hits you, again? This and the occasional mindset that more enemies in a mob equals more challenging combat and you have my problems with the system. Chief example of poor mob combat would probably be the Goblins in the Dead Bog--half of the mob will almost always fall back and chuck very small grenades at you that you have no guarantee of seeing while you're in the middle of killing all the closer ones, much less reacting to in time since you can't always cancel out of every combo.

For a game that more or less rips off/pays homage to/is heavily inspired by God of War, it definitely missed a few of the major defining marks of what made GoW's combat enjoyable IMO--difficult for the reckless and heavily punishing to the greedy, but most everything had clear telegraphs and ample space to evade anything (exception of GoW1 which had a lot of cheap elements, but I give first-game-in-a-series titles a pass since they don't fully know what they are that early into the series).

Also, a trope getting more and more common in action titles I'm getting tired of seeing that LOS is no stranger to--characters surviving injuries that would straight-up kill a human. Gabriel gets impaled a shitload of times and just shrugs it off--once he goes vampire and demigod I'm okay with this, but when he's still human? Nah fam, you dead. Potions and green fountains ain't fixing that shit. Cuts and broken bones are one thing, internal organ and tissue and probably bone/spine damage are another. Magic fountain might close up a ruptured stomach, but is it also gonna just make all the leaking stomach acids just disappear and undo all the massive amounts of internal dissolution it did? Yes, it looks badass, but if you ask me it's more badass to survive an injury like the the real way--endure the exquisite levels of pain and recovery period that goes with surviving such a wound. Just pulling the thing out and grunting is a tired trope that needs to go.

Also, does Gabriel eat? I can buy him hunting and shit most of the game, at least until he hits Necromancer's Abyss--don't look like there's anything alive there, and for all the parkour the guy does he probably eats on the level of an Olympian athlete.

Obviously I'm taking things to a realistic extreme on this point, but if it's a game trying to illustrate a long hard journey through vast wilderness and makes a point of showing the hero resting by a fire, then I expect it to address the simple matter of food intake too.

[SecretWeapon]

That's castlevania, always.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Also, a trope getting more and more common in action titles I'm getting tired of seeing that LOS is no stranger to--characters surviving injuries that would straight-up kill a human. Gabriel gets impaled a shitload of times and just shrugs it off--once he goes vampire and demigod I'm okay with this, but when he's still human? Nah fam, you dead. Potions and green fountains ain't fixing that shit. Cuts and broken bones are one thing, internal organ and tissue and probably bone/spine damage are another. Magic fountain might close up a ruptured stomach, but is it also gonna just make all the leaking stomach acids just disappear and undo all the massive amounts of internal dissolution it did? Yes, it looks badass, but if you ask me it's more badass to survive an injury like the the real way--endure the exquisite levels of pain and recovery period that goes with surviving such a wound. Just pulling the thing out and grunting is a tired trope that needs to go.

Also, does Gabriel eat? I can buy him hunting and shit most of the game, at least until he hits Necromancer's Abyss--don't look like there's anything alive there, and for all the parkour the guy does he probably eats on the level of an Olympian athlete.

Obviously I'm taking things to a realistic extreme on this point, but if it's a game trying to illustrate a long hard journey through vast wilderness and makes a point of showing the hero resting by a fire, then I expect it to address the simple matter of food intake too.

No game will ever do these better than Metal Gear Solid 3*

*except for dedicated survival simulators (which Castlevania should NEVER EVER BE).

[Flame]

Strangely enough i never minded Zobek, and truth be told, I cant remember but I think he did pull the wool over my eyes. Patrick Stewart's baleful and sometimes weird intonations sort of mask the words. its easy to see hes a bad guy if you read what he says, but with Patrick narrating, its easy to sort of lose sight of the details while hearing him go on.

though in hindsight, it could have been done better, I did like some touches. Such as when you arrive at Wygol, and Zobek is praying for a slaughtered battalion of Brotherhood knights, and says that the monsters got to them before they got there.

Ive been replaying it too recently and it only just dawned on me that HE killed that battalion. like, how did I not notice that before? it was clever. Though if he wasnt such an obvious double cross, it wouldve been a more subtle touch.

There's also a bit of a plot hole in his character description. It lists him as if he exists in the annals of the order's history, as their "oldest serving member", and yet somehow, nobody knows, despite having the same name as one of the 3 founders, that he IS the same Zobek.

Granted, it says "if the annals of the order are to be believed..." Implying they may have been tampered with, but that just stands out to me.

[SecretWeapon]

To be fair (assuming they lost the portraits) is not farfetched to believe he's named after Founder Zobek. Hell, are even the Founder names remembered?

[Dracula9]

It's also suggested that Zobek doesn't hang around the current Order--he just kinda shows up in their gear and helps you out, Gabe probably figures he's a descendant (his explanation for the old armor) or named in the founder's honor and out in the field and just happened to run into him.

[Flame]

It's also suggested that Zobek doesn't hang around the current Order--he just kinda shows up in their gear and helps you out, Gabe probably figures he's a descendant (his explanation for the old armor) or named in the founder's honor and out in the field and just happened to run into him.

I mean, his character entry specifically mentions that Zobek appears in the Brotherhood records.

"If the recorded chronicles of the Brotherhood are to be believed, Zobek is one of their longest serving warriors. The list of heroic deeds attributed to him is as impressive as his vast knowledge of the art of war or indeed the mighty fighting skills he can deploy, despite his age. His weapon of choice is a simple long sword which he handles with skill and alacrity. Strangely, he likes to use an old-fashioned uniform of the Brotherhood of Light that, according to him, was inherited from one of his ancestors; one of the founding members of the Order. "

I guess Secret Weapon might be on to it where people probably assume he's a descendant of the original Zobek, since he claims to be, and even wears Zobek's old armor.

It's not like theyve got photos. And if they don't have the portraits of the founders, (which are painted in the image of them at their prime, and prime Zobek looks considerably fuller faced than Lord Zobek) and its not unheard of for descendants to share looks...

not like most people would immediately assume that the founder of a christian brotherhood, who ascended into heaven was still walking around centuries after.

Not to mention that both LoS and MoF imply that the order knew the truth and sent Gabriel out anyway, sacrificing him to his fate. MoF especially portrays this

[Dracula9]

True, but you don't hear much of him actually being present around the rest of the Order, and it's never specified if those records apply to OG Zobek or current Zobek. He could have also fabricated them, since it specifically implies they are not guaranteed to be believed.

When the Order has access to seeing the future and seem to have Pan as a sort of ally, I don't imagine even the NecroLord could hide out in there forever. Plus he still has all his Dark Lord duties and shenanigans to enact, and he can't very well do those on Brotherhood time.

[zangetsu468]

Interesting theories. Just to point out, given LOS' context it seems to be the kind of era where anyone could basically give themselves any name they wanted. Gabriel was originally a Cronqvist, but the Brotherhood gave him the name 'Belmont' from what I recall.

There's also something that was on my mind way-back-when I was playing LOS. Was the brotherhood even a thing, like was it real? Obviously it must've existed at one stage because it seemed that people knew what it was, but the thought also occurred to me, what if Zobek just sent all these Knights to the slaughter in the exact same way that Gabriel went in (aside from the Marie stuff, but each with their own set of circumstances) the only difference being that they failed? The only difference with Gabriel was that he succeeded in fulfilling what Zobek had requested.

[BMC_War Machine]

Four out of five isn't bad, considering narrative was never CV's most redeeming factor.

With the direction of LOS1, I believe they shouldn't have introduced Satan as the final boss. It didn't need to be God/ Angel vs Devil struggle/ theme (aside from the Lords of Shadow themselves leaving behind dark versions of themselves), because the game was set in its own world which felt foreign to anything we knew. 

General rule of thumb when writing is that you don't introduce new ideas into a conclusion. It would have been better imo if Satan was left out of it, there was no Devil mask, the God mask (and Gabe thinking it would bring Marie back) could have stayed,  Zobek was the final boss with a final form resembling Death (being Lord of the Necromancers), Marie could have died some other way (not by axe-wielding Gabriel ).

Gabriel was an already complex enough character, the story needed to be more simple without being dumbed down too much.

PS: As much as I actually liked the DLC, and fighting TF1 - who was a much better boss than Satan - this extension of how LOS1 really ended was overly complicated in context to the ending, which implied that Gabriel in his downtrodden state may just put the Devil Mask back on and this may have something to do with the ending because the fucking thing was zoomed in 10x while the credits were scrolling. Yet again, this idea was ditched in favour of TF1's power and Gabriel becoming a Vampire by completely draining Laura of her blood.. Uyyyygh... There's no need to over-complicate things.

I'm part of the minority on the forums that actually loved LoS lol.  Maybe i took the ending wrong, but i always pegged the reason why Gabriel became Dracula was because when the world was still torn in limbo between heaven and hell, we all know he was brought back immortal.  I mean, the whole story was just one big fuck you to his sanity lol, kind of like a sons of anarchy still in twisting 1 positive move into about 10 or more jacked up, fucked outcomes lol.  I took it as when he came back, to find this all out and with his one driving force being a complete lie, it left him broken.  Immortality, in the end not getting my lady back, no more lords of shadow to kill, damn, this sucks  But to me it also felt like MecurySteam kinda gave a nod to how Lament of Innocence played out, talking about how Mathias lost his betrothed, and cursed God and humanity.  This would also make some sense considering LoI was at the time considered the first Belmont based 'vania.  Just my $0.02,

/rant

[TatteredSeraph]

That's actually more or less exactly how I'd read into the original ending, if you ignore Laura forcing the change on him.  If anything, it makes it sadder and more powerful.  There's nothing to say either that the newly immortal Gabriel, becoming corrupted into the form of a vampire because of his hatred of what's happened, could then go after the F.O, taking Laura's power for his own along the way as possibly a mixture of greed for more power and remorse/pity for her from the lingering vestiges of his humanity.  Going after the F.O. would purely be for power's sake

[Flame]

Interesting theories. Just to point out, given LOS' context it seems to be the kind of era where anyone could basically give themselves any name they wanted. Gabriel was originally a Cronqvist, but the Brotherhood gave him the name 'Belmont' from what I recall.

There's also something that was on my mind way-back-when I was playing LOS. Was the brotherhood even a thing, like was it real? Obviously it must've existed at one stage because it seemed that people knew what it was, but the thought also occurred to me, what if Zobek just sent all these Knights to the slaughter in the exact same way that Gabriel went in (aside from the Marie stuff, but each with their own set of circumstances) the only difference being that they failed? The only difference with Gabriel was that he succeeded in fulfilling what Zobek had requested.

multiple knight scrolls and such mention the church, so it isnt unreasonable for a christian order like that to exist. I mean this was around the time that they started to pop up. the Knights of St Peter were founded by pope Leo IX to fight the Normans in 1053. Although most of these kinds of order wouldnt exist until the late 11th century and early 12th, when the crusades hit full swing.  But 1047 is more or less around the right time for it to be believable, and they send these knights around the globe to fight evil and monsters and such, though the lords of shadow and their minions are a threat that no normal man can ever really hope to conquer, so you find them dead (though many of them got quite far themselves! There's even a few in the land of the dead!)

Edit:
Man, it's amazing how much better the combat feels in LoS2. In general the whole flow of dodge/block/perfect block is much better. In LoS it tends to be hard to differentiate attacks, or even see them coming sometimes. The only times I ever block or perfect block tend to be by complete accident. Most of the time I just roll around like I'm Sonic the Hedgehog

Also, Sword Masters can eat a dick. Fuck those guys.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Also, Sword Masters can eat a dick. Fuck those guys.

They can eat a bag of dicks. That are cactus-like. And made of fire. And that taste like vomit.
Fuck those guys. They're bosses in mook's clothing!

, so you find them dead (though many of them got quite far themselves! There's even a few in the land of the dead!)

I even commented on that in my OP. XD

This really gets sour in Mirror of Fate. You can't help but feel bad for some of those guys.
Remember the Brotherhood Knight in MoF that Trevor finds before he makes his final ascent to Dracula's throne room? According to the dude's scroll, he MADE IT SO FAR AS TO ACTUALLY FIGHT DRACULA. Only to realize too late that he didn't bring the right gear, and so couldn't do any lasting damage to the Dark Lord. Based on where you find his corpse, Dracula presumably threw the poor bloke out a window of the tower, and after a long fall, he broke his back on the ledge where Trevor eventually finds him. Given that the impact alone didn't kill him, this guy was made of iron, just slightly less so than Trevor (although in gameplay terms he's actually STURDIER given that the same fall kills Trevor on impact). It also means he probably starved to death due to paralysis by way of broken spine. Yeesh.

Rough tale, that guy's. All that implied cunning and badassery and he trips at the finish line. Screw TrevorCard. I wanna know THAT guy's story.