Castlevania Dungeon Forums
Off Topic => Off Topic => Topic started by: Mooning Freddy on October 29, 2014, 03:37:35 PM
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-declares-evolution-and-big-bang-theory-are-right-and-god-isnt-a-magician-with-a-magic-wand-9822514.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-declares-evolution-and-big-bang-theory-are-right-and-god-isnt-a-magician-with-a-magic-wand-9822514.html)
It seems like "homeboy" Pope Franciscus keeps reforming and reforming. After saying favorable things about homosexuals, he now declares that the Big Bang and evolution are true and
Francis explained that both scientific theories were not incompatible with the existence of a creator – arguing instead that they “require it”.
“When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” Francis said.
The only question that remains is: How would Protestant creationists in the USA respond to this? ;D
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-declares-evolution-and-big-bang-theory-are-right-and-god-isnt-a-magician-with-a-magic-wand-9822514.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-declares-evolution-and-big-bang-theory-are-right-and-god-isnt-a-magician-with-a-magic-wand-9822514.html)
It seems like "homeboy" Pope Franciscus keeps reforming and reforming. After saying favorable things about homosexuals, he now declares that the Big Bang and evolution are true and
The only question that remains is: How would Protestant creationists in the USA respond to this? ;D
Pope Francis is awesome.
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Cool, but I dislike how some people worships a Pope instead of God. Sad that this happens in a lot of religions, some people idolize the man in front of them instead of their gods, being used by them. How they can blindly follow what he says is something that Im trying to understand.
inb4 Im talking about some cases, not bashing any religion.
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The only question that remains is: How would Protestant creationists in the USA respond to this? ;D
You are aware that the Pope is not the leader of all Christians, right?
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Catholicism doesn't have a real problem with Evolution/Big Bang.
You're thinking of those Protestants (Evangelicals are the loudest) who believe the bible in literal terms.
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I've said it a dozen times before, I'll say it again.
Centuries of madmen and manipulation and we finally get a guy who not only has his shit on straight, he's no afraid to reform what needs reformation.
We've finally got us a guy worthy of his title.
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;-P Personally, I'm not sure I wanna follow a guy that wears shit, whether it's on straight or not! ;-) (wha wha wha!)
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I've said it a dozen times before, I'll say it again.
Centuries of madmen and manipulation and we finally get a guy who not only has his shit on straight, he's no afraid to reform what needs reformation.
We've finally got us a guy worthy of his title.
^ Patton approves of the above.
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Who the hell's Patton?
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General Patton probably. Although he's been dead for many, many years.
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You are aware that the Pope is not the leader of all Christians, right?
Catholicism doesn't have a real problem with Evolution/Big Bang.
You're thinking of those Protestants (Evangelicals are the loudest) who believe the bible in literal terms.
That is the point that is ironic to me. Couple of centuries ago, protestants were burned at the stake for "straying away from the path of true Christianity" and allowing different interpretations to Christianity than the Catholic church's. The protestants were progressives who thought religion should not be interpreted in only one way, thus allowing the introduction of science alongside religion.
Now, as Jorge says, some Protestants seem to be more fundamentalist that Catholics, who used to be more extreme in their faith. :P Now that even the Pope, the symbol of Christian dogmatism and authoritarianism, acknowledges that the scriptures are not incompatible with science, there are Protestants who won't acknowledge that? It's the irony that entertains me.
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This guy seems like he actually read the Bible and is thinking what good stuff this Jesus guy can offer the world, rather than who's going to hell.
He doesn't need to read the bible in order to be a good Christian. Simply following the teachings of Christ without all the nonsense (dogma) will work just fine. Good thoughts, good deeds, good words. Woops! That's Mohammad ;D Ahh, well. Same difference considering he was one of Jesus' past lives. My bro actually likes this guy and he can't stand the Vatican because of all the bad history involving them. Pope Francis is actually doing something positive with his position and it's about (God)damned time. Took 1700 years but they're finally turning things around over there. Lets just hope they can keep this new track record going now.
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I personally like this new development.
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General Patton probably. Although he's been dead for many, many years.
That's who first came to mind, but I don't see what on earth General Patton has to do with anything we're discussing.
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That's who first came to mind, but I don't see what on earth General Patton has to do with anything we're discussing.
Haha, I don't either. And he's the only Patton I know of.
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Haha, I don't either. And he's the only Patton I know of.
Who the hell's Patton?
General Patton probably. Although he's been dead for many, many years.
Patton is my last name. :P
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Whoops :-\
Well I guess i now know two Pattons :)
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I grew up Catholic, but don't really follow religion now (not out of any dislike of Christianity or anything, but just that I don't believe anymore). But I really like this guy. :D
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Nah, the bible and evolution really aren't compatible. This pope is just trying to be a crowdpleaser.
Christianity is all about faith, which doesn't require proof or scientific evidence. So it's okay if what you believe isn't logical. It was never supposed to be. If your faith is based on things you can observe and measure and repeat in a lab (not that evolution is any of those things), then it's not really faith at all.
If this makes me a fundamentalist or an extremist, then so be it.
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Nah, the bible and evolution really aren't compatible. This pope is just trying to be a crowdpleaser.
Christianity is all about faith, which doesn't require proof or scientific evidence. So it's okay if what you believe isn't logical. It was never supposed to be. If your faith is based on things you can observe and measure and repeat in a lab (not that evolution is any of those things), then it's not really faith at all.
If this makes me a fundamentalist or an extremist, then so be it.
To say the truth you aren't wrong at all, people are adapting religious teachings for a long time for modern days. It was never something to prove, but to believe.
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Not saying there was or wasn't some sort of science or big bang with the creation but I think if you believe in a god then you'd have to be open to the endless possibilities. As a god he would have unlimited power and could do anything he wanted as an omnipotent being and has no reason to follow the logic of mortal men. The point I'm getting at is as a god he could use any means to do anything. But I'm probably just rambling.
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Nah, the bible and evolution really aren't compatible. This pope is just trying to be a crowdpleaser.
Christianity is all about faith, which doesn't require proof or scientific evidence. So it's okay if what you believe isn't logical. It was never supposed to be. If your faith is based on things you can observe and measure and repeat in a lab (not that evolution is any of those things), then it's not really faith at all.
If this makes me a fundamentalist or an extremist, then so be it.
So you're saying God could not have made evolution and set events on a course where evolution would end up birthing humanity? Personally, I think that's short sighted. If in the event the Christian god exists, there's nothing to say he didn't create things as they are. The Bible works heavily in metaphors so the 'commoners' can understand. If the book was talking about quantum theory and evolutionary traits passed down through DNA mutations... Well, I think you can see what I'm getting at.
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Oh boy. This guy is definitely getting the poison ring.
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As a god he would have unlimited power and could do anything he wanted as an omnipotent being and has no reason to follow the logic of mortal men. The point I'm getting at is as a god he could use any means to do anything.
This is what baffles me about the Pope's statement, where he implies God couldn't create the universe with the mere speaking of words. If God is limited, he is not God. He can make all the molecules and energy and all the things that make up life and the cosmos but requires a natural progression of time and change to make anything of them? Apparently Jesus also didn't work miracles and cheated his way to turning water to wine, because miracles are magic that a deity is incapable of doing. An unbelief in miracles and the power of God to perform the extraordinary would mean that Jesus also couldn't raise his body from the dead, making Christianity unnecessary if there is no resurrection after salvation.
If God can make the rules of the universe it should go without saying that he can bend and manipulate them in whatever way he pleases.
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This is what baffles me about the Pope's statement, where he implies God couldn't create the universe with the mere speaking of words. If God is limited, he is not God. He can make all the molecules and energy and all the things that make up life and the cosmos but requires a natural progression of time and change to make anything of them? Apparently Jesus also didn't work miracles and cheated his way to turning water to wine, because miracles are magic that a deity is incapable of doing. An unbelief in miracles and the power of God to perform the extraordinary would mean that Jesus also couldn't raise his body from the dead, making Christianity unnecessary if there is no resurrection after salvation.
If God can make the rules of the universe it should go without saying that he can bend and manipulate them in whatever way he pleases.
"Free will", "God is so wise that he [insert plothole in an overglorified way to justify]" etc etc
Omniscience and omnipotence are contradictory. Not amongst each other, but inside themselves. An omnipotent being has incredible contradictions stating how he can't be truly omnipotent because being omnipotent ALSO implies being able to "be unable" to do something (That anedocte about the too-heavy-to-lift rock, y'know), and omniscience has contradictions concerning free will and the knowledge of the future.
Maybe that's what the Pope is getting at. You have to be truly faithful to overlook these things, and you have to be wise to accept what science has demonstrated.
Do I think this was a shot in the foot? Yeah, kinda... But the Pope needs to appease the people and "somewhat" say "Dudes, stop being silly. Look at this evidence and grow up".
It got to a point where no one can deny evolution or the Big Bang without looking like an ignorant or dishonest person, specially this year which many discoveries about the Big Bang have been made. I personally think that this Pope is being very wise.
(I told myself I'd not coment here. How wrong I was)
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I think the Pope just wanted to set an example that everyone should tolerate what others believe in.
As for proof of the existence of God, and all other things related to it, please keep the arguments down cuz we don't want an all out fight that might lead into a thread lock.
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I think that Judeo-Christian religion and science do not contradict each other if you treat them metaphorically. I heard that religious people who believe in evolution would argue that the fact evolution took billions of years does not contradict the argument in Genesis that the world and all life on it was created in six days, because "One day for God are many years for man".
Personally, I believe that the book of Genesis is a collection of Jewish mythology, a large part of which was ripped off from the mythologies of other Mesopotamian ancient nations.
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I've always had trouble with the big Bang theory (not the TV show, lol.). According to the ancients and their advanced knowledge the Universe was always in existence. The big Bang theory is based on how far we can peer out into the universe. And though we've seen pretty far out there's still much more out there. However our instruments all require light in order to see and this is where the big bang has trouble. With each new innovation for our telescopes we can peer that much further out into the universe. That means that scientists will have to keep readjusting their big bang model until they actually come to the same conclusion that the ancients had. And as for God? The ancients also knew that the universe itself is his body which is why it's always been around. God is eternal therefore so is the universe. That which dwells in the universe is finite; stars, planets, galaxies, etc. are all created, growing, changing, evolving, and then eventually die off which then feeds new life into other creations. But the universe itself has always been. Think of it in much simpler terms as the Greek myth of Atlas holding up the world. That's a good 'a description as any. I don't know about anyone else but this is a rather comforting thought to know there won't be a big crunch (end of the universe). Both our sciences and religions are still in their infancy when you compare them to the ancient knowledge and spirituality. However as they continue 'evolve' so will their understanding of the universe and of God. This--to me personally--is how I feel things are the way they are.
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My opinion is considerably different. I am agnostic, therefore I don't believe in anything. But, as opposed to the people saying god created evolution, I think they are wrong. The big bang theory was based all on science. Not on god. The fact that people are now saying god created the big bang upsets me. It means that even thought the real truth is in front of their face, they cannot grasp it. So what do they do? They bend the truth. They bend the truth because their minds are too fable to grasp the concept of no god, because they don't like change. Why? Because change is different. Just like immigrants were different in the U.S. Just like Jewish people were different to Hitler. The fact that people are constantly trying to convert me also upsets me. Why? Because they don't like difference. They have very little tolerance to difference. That's how close minded mankind is.
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My opinion is considerably different. I am agnostic, therefore I don't believe in anything. But, as opposed to the people saying god created evolution, I think they are wrong. The big bang theory was based all on science. Not on god. The fact that people are now saying god created the big bang upsets me. It means that even thought the real truth is in front of their face, they cannot grasp it. So what do they do? They bend the truth. They bend the truth because their minds are too fable to grasp the concept of no god, because they don't like change. Why? Because change is different. Just like immigrants were different in the U.S. Just like Jewish people were different to Hitler. The fact that people are constantly trying to convert me also upsets me. Why? Because they don't like difference. They have very little tolerance to difference. That's how close minded mankind is.
You realize how childish that sounds?
"WHAT? RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE ACCEPTING SCIENTIFIC FACT AND ADAPTING THEIR RELIGION TO FIT IT IN? THAT MAKES ME MAD! ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO WORK THAT WAY!"
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I don't understand why omnipotence and omniscience have to contradict themselves. Why would God do something contrary to His character?
I mean...the big rock thing...If God is omnipotent, why make a "rock" He can't move, thereby making Himself no longer omnipotent? That wouldn't make any sense.
And does knowing the future have to mess up free will? So God knows what's gonna happen in the future...that doesn't change the fact that I don't, and still have choices to make.
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I reaaaaaaaaally don't want to discuss this further, so this is possibly my last reply;
I don't understand why omnipotence and omniscience have to contradict themselves. Why would God do something contrary to His character?
I mean...the big rock thing...If God is omnipotent, why make a "rock" He can't move, thereby making Himself no longer omnipotent? That wouldn't make any sense.
It's not about "wanting to", but about "being able to". Being able to not move the rock would show that he's not omnipotent, and not "make him not omnipotent". If he does indeed move the rock, then this would show that he was unable to create a rock truly umovable, which also challenges omnipotency.
This argument of "wanting to" equates a magician telling you he can do anything, and right after you challenge him to do something that would put his power in question, and from which he could arise victorious, he dismisses it by "But why I would do that?". Why? To prove your omnipotency, of course. The mere fact that you (not YOU The Android, but as a general) have to think on a "why" already shows that there's something wrong.
There is something else here: What is the "character of God"? Saying that he's omnipotent without demonstrating it, and asking you to believe it? On what grounds?
It's like a cop: He may not want to shoot you, but he SURE AS HELL can shoot you, independent of "wanting or not". He has a gun, he has the sights and he has the skill. This is all that matters.
I'm not asking you if you want, I'm asking if you can. Also, this is one principle of the scientific method: Can't show it because "why"? Then you have no evidence, and I have no "why" to believe you.
Besides this all, there is one last problem: I can simply ask "Could He create a rock that He can't lift and THEN lift it?". If he "doesn't want to", then he's not omnipotent, if he "wants to" and succeeds, then the rock was not truly unmovable.
And does knowing the future have to mess up free will? So God knows what's gonna happen in the future...that doesn't change the fact that I don't, and still have choices to make.
But he still knows what your choices will be, and you'll still be condemned (if you did wrong) or saved (if you did right) based on what He sees on your future, without you being able to avoid it.
You have no say on the matter, and you have no way to change your destiny when He already knows exactly how you'll pan out. You were born to be damned or saved, and He already knows exactly how. You may think that you're "deciding", but in fact the decisions were made before you were even born. You have no option but to follow His vision to his ultimate plan for you (Be it damnation or salvation).
Which makes "creating us" a pretty silly thing, considering that everything has already been decided and there is no reason for us to undergo the illusion of choice.
Think of it as a book: You bough this book yesterday, and you're reading it. No matter the fact that you don't know the outcome of the story, the author already wrote it, and you will end up exactly as he wanted. You can't "write your own pages", it's not a blank book.
Now, if you're somehow able to change your future, this challenges His omniscience, since he can't predict what you'll do next.
Dudes, for the LOVE of Dracula, I'm trying to be as civil as possible. I don't want anyone to be offended. If I offended you somehow, I'm sorry and I'm shutting up.
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I doubt you'll offend me, so no worries there. I was hesitant to question anyway because I just don't like to argue. Most of my family (immediate and extended) claim Christianity, and many of them like to get into heated debates on all the most controversial topics...I generally just avoid them. I may not mind a civil discussion about "the issues" or what one believes, but I don't care to bash anyone over the head, which my family just about does! ("In love" I'm sure...none of us dislike any others as far as I know...but the arguments get too intense for me.)
I do believe in the God of the bible, His "omni-" characteristics and all, but I don't feel the need to ever "justify" or "defend" my choice to follow that religion over any other...it is my freedom to believe, and nobody has to agree with me on it, right? :-) Others have that same right.
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I think that Judeo-Christian religion and science do not contradict each other if you treat them metaphorically. I heard that religious people who believe in evolution would argue that the fact evolution took billions of years does not contradict the argument in Genesis that the world and all life on it was created in six days, because "One day for God are many years for man".
That's the classic argument by those who believe the creation account in the bible is a metaphor. But the description of each day in the creation account ends with, "and there was evening, and there was morning - the first day" (or the second day, or the third day, etc...you get the idea). It's a pretty huge stretch to make that language a metaphor.
I've said it here before, but it's worth mentioning again: For the world to be created, it must have had the appearance of an aged world. Hypothetically, if you were to cut down a tree on the sixth day, wouldn't you expect to find rings inside the trunk? But that tree is only three days old! And if you had the means to analyze the soil on the sixth day, wouldn't you find that it was made up of decayed plant and animal matter? But it's only a few days old, and nothing has died yet, much less decayed. In order for the world to be self-sustaining, it must have the appearance of being really really old. So if we're faced with mountains of scientific evidence of evolution, indicating that the world is billions of years old, we can still believe in creation.
It all comes down to faith anyway.
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"Evening" and "Morning" can be metaphors as well, and could stand for eras.
Just sayin'.
Also, I'm Agnostic so I have no say here or there on the matters. I was raised Roman Catholic and was confirmed, but then parted with that religion.
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