Topic: Wow Mom. A work of fiction? REALLY?

[X]

Asatru isn't a religion FYI. It is Pagan spirituality. There is quite a difference between spirituality and organized religion. Spirituality is something everyone has in common and that is self-exploration; to be one with thy self and find your god-center or your sacred inner temple. Religion is about gathering many followers, following strict rules (Dogma) and expected to pay homage to the worshiped god in question. After-all for religion; more followers means more power and wealth. I for one am heavy into Spirituality as I find organized Religion unrealistic in many of it's aspects and views and the Dogmatic rules are no-longer applicable, let alone acceptable in today's society. Jesus Christ (Yeshua) was a spiritualist. He taught his people about the god-centered self. To look inward and discover their true spiritual identities. To realize that every single person (Man, Woman, Child, Race) were all God's children (not just Jesus), important and equal in the eyes of God. But it was only after his death that his teachings (some of which were altered or dropped all-together) were transformed into the Religious organization known as Pauline Christianity. Jesus was also a man who didn't mince words when talking about organized religion. He disliked their ways and methods and called them all Hypocrites. If he were here now and could see how his teachings were transformed by his fellow man, he would condemn the Vatican as being hypocritical.

For those who don't know what the word means here's a dictionary example:

1. A person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion.

2. A person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs and feelings.

 -Hypocrite

[Mooning Freddy]

Yep, X, you nailed it.

There's quite a difference between religion and faith. The very IDEA of religion is fairly new, only centuries old, because ages ago people couldn't dream of separation of church and state. Religion WAS the state. In the ancient world the state's laws were religious laws and those who didn't follow them were punished. People could not imagine living without religion as it was their faith, the only possible way of living for them. When talking about the Jews in the bible, I think you should say "the faith of the Jews" rather than "the Jewish religion".
So yeah, it is only when mankind progressed and realized a state could exist without gods and "their laws" that religions became what they are today. You probably know this, but in classic Islam, for instance, separation of church and state is blasphemy.

Like I said before, I was amazed by how Plato explained this in his "Republic". He explained that a strong state should manipulate religion/faith to fit its targets. So ahead of his time... Any philosopher writing that in the middle ages would have been beheaded, lol...

[Grimlock78]

You can't explain it any better you know? I learn new things everyday.

[Mooning Freddy]

You can't explain it any better you know? I learn new things everyday.

I am happy when there are people who are interested in my opinion. Often I feel that I'm talking to myself. 

[Flame]

I'm pretty sure if nothing else Jesus would have a VERY hard time swallowing the Crusades or the Inquisitions. I mean, the Inquisition in particular. There's just no excuse for that kind of bullshit.

[Mooning Freddy]

I wanted to mention the Crusades, Flame. Couple of days ago watched a program about them.
In some history book, the author referred to the Crusades as "the first wave of European imperialism". I chuckled at first, but then thought about it, and came to conclusion that he's right. It's amazing how far apart legends about the crusades are from reality.

The legends tell about brave knights of England, France and Italy who decided to liberate the Holy Land from the Arab rulers who conquered it centuries earlier, in the name of their true faith.
The reality? The knights were second-rate princes who had little power by right of birth, who sought dominance but had no way to achieve it in Europe. The leaders of the Church, disturbed by the unrest in the middle east and fearing the spread of Islam through Turkey into Europe, and at the same time afraid battles-for-power within Europe intensifying, decided getting rid of the princes by sending them on a crazy journey to the middle east would be a good idea.
And so the European Crusaders went on a journey to a land they only heard of in legends, and where Europeans hadn't set foot since the dawn of the Roman Empire.

And the Crusades themselves? Massacres of proportions the Middle East has yet to see before. The crusaders killed everybody, men, women and children alike, Muslims, Jews and even Christians. The Arab conquests centuries earlier seemed nice in comparison to their cruelty. Crusaders sought alliances with local cities, only to betray and destroy them. It is said they even practiced cannibalism to frighten their enemies.   

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Not to mention that the Crusades worked out well for "His Holiness" the Pope, who could get rid of troublesome princes and knights and use them to increase the size of his empire with a single decree. And so when a lot of them never came back, it didn't trouble the man ONE BIT. He was playing Human lives in a manner even worse than the Caesars.

Caesar said: "Go conquer this far and away land. Why? Because I fucking told you to and I pay you to do what I tell you to do."

Pope said: "Go conquer this far and away land. Why? Why because if you do this, you're GUARANTEED A PLACE IN HEAVEN, dear boy! Nevermind that you'll be dead broke afterwards and will probably not see your families again for at least 8 to 10 years (if at all) and your sons won't even recognize their father if--- I mean WHEN you return! JUST THINK OF THE SALVATION!!!"

[Dalles]

I'd like to reply to a claim that certain Christians behave in an arrogant manner thinking that their god of choice is the One True God and there is no other besides that particular deity.

Well. It comes with the territory. Monoteistic religions overall claim their deity is the Single True One and the other religions are all fake. The latest developments thanks to Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI towards "ecumenism" aka more friendly terms between religions may be misleading you into thinking otherwise, but take a look inside the Bible or the Quran -- in these scriptures it's clearly stated that there's just one God and all other religions are fueled by demonic propaganda.

How does that differ from the old politeistic belief systems such as Roman or Greek ones for example. They gladly adopted many middle-eastern and some African deities, not forgetting about sacrifices for Hera/Juno or Jupiter/Zeus. I am no specialist in that field, so I cannot tell you how things looked like with Norse beliefs, but I can tell you this: a religion's 'arrogance' that is the claim that only one god is true is the actual source of conflicts! After all, a believer often feels compelled to eradicate any mention of the 'false' religions in order to protect his/her brethren in faith. That's the source of monoteistic religions' followers' fanatism and I've experienced it firsthand, sadly. I may tell more if asked.

So, dear Sigurd, I'd be careful when discussing matters of faith when talking to your mother. She won't respect your gods or anything related to them -- her religion explicitly prohibits her to. And her motherly care for you means she will try to sway you from your beliefs in order to save you. I'd advise you to just politely discourage her from trying and also avoid talking matters of faith with her. Unless of course you're willing to give in and agree with her stance, which I don't see coming.

[Lelygax]

That makes me remember a sig that I've seen years ago, something like that:
"I've readed the bible, good book, but the author have been unwise in killing all characters, eliminating all the chances of a sequel"

But I believe in God 

[Laina]

Sucks your mom didn't understand, but I'd have to say let it lie. My cousin's family still tries to control this particular cousin with religion (and is doing a damn good job at it) & the cousin is nearly 30 years old. I mean, here's a 29 year old who can't date person XYZ because, "They're dangerous! XYZ doesn't believe in the Lord, so there's nothing holding them back from murdering you! They aren't afraid of hell!". Yeah, this was said to an adult person with a serious face. More than once. On different occasions...yeah.

Also, my mom has came at me with a knife more than once over living my life in a way she didn't much care for, pitched unopened soda cans at my head for just going out with friends after work (I'm 27 btw), even threatened me with a tire iron when I had an auto accident, 'cuz, ya know, accident implies "calculated action" in her world when it comes to me. I'm sure she'll do half of this shit again before we're dead; I'm sure she's got new crazy cookin' up for me as I'm typing this, she's just got to wait for me slip up. I just get over it because she's my mom. It hurts when a parent isn't on board with something so near & dear to the very core of your being (I'm thinking your spirituality/religion is a pretty big deal to you as it is with most folks), but she still loves you & only said she said out of genuine concern for you. Think what you'd say if Odin, for example, said, "Dude, if your mom's not on board with me before her time's out, I gotta make her live with the frost giants. Them's the breaks." I'm sure you'd try to convince her because nobody wants their mother in that frozen wasteland. I hope that didn't seem offensive, none whatsoever intended, just needed a rad example.

It was a well meaning comment that just didn't quite have the effect she thought it would. It sounded like she was holding back too, trying to use a delicate touch-I gotta say, if she's as big into Christianity as you say, that was a classy way of maneuvering on her part. Talk it out, hug it out & I love to top stuff like this off with tasty homemade waffles...I can post the recipe if anybody's interested. Seriously, no syrup needed, these things are flippin' delicious & courtesy of my mom's crazy brain. <3

[uzo]

tasty homemade waffles...I can post the recipe if anybody's interested

Please do, thanks.

[Dracula9]

I'd actually contest that it is the opposite. Think about it; A christian mother hearing her son talk about worshiping heathen gods, in her eyes something that would damn him to hell for an eternity of torture. For her, this is grounds for intervention, much less dismissing it as fiction. The typical reaction here is to get him set straight before it's too late.

Why are you supporting the "typical reaction" when you already chastised him for generalizing the Christian faith?

And on that particular note, I'm going to piggyback off of the last few posts regarding the Crusades and whatnot. There's a difference between generalizing an entire faith based on what few interactions one has had in comparison to the whole religion and being aware of the quote-unquote extremists in that religion's history. I believe he mentioned that that only applied to the Christians he had met, but I'm not sure. I'm already in this post and the recent posts don't go back that far. I'll edit if need be. But anyway, I have no problem pointing out the fallacies in established religion, most notably the Christian faith. Why them? Because they've got the most chips on the table and the most skeletons in their closet IMO. Most of the Bible's stories are either derived from or blatantly copied from previous religions or spiritualities(which the Christians most likely overrun, slaughtered, and demonized for their own political power regime), and the Church has omitted a large amount of Biblical stories which often times contradict what they at the time considered dangerous to their political standing. For instance, the Apocrypha. Goes against a LOT of the "established" Biblical beliefs, and as such was omitted, as well as the speculated Books of Mary Magdalene and Apostles who weren't Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John (but those could have been forged in their names, hence why it's speculated. But the omittances remain.). Then there's the Crusades, just because "their holy stuff should be OUR holy stuff because God said so." So there's plenty of holes in the Christian cloth, but I have no reason to judge them based on that. I don't think the actions of the former generations should sentence the lives of the latter generations. It's not all that fair. Have I met pushy, your-way-is-wrong, asshole Christians? Sure. But I know more decent ones than not and they are more attuned to simply living life well and not being a total bastard. I know I've totally divulged from what the original topic was about, but anything on that note I'd say to him has already been posted. Talk to her, etc. But I guess I like getting into these types of discussions.

[uzo]

Supporting? I believe you need to read what I wrote again. Explaining something and supporting something are two different things.

[Kale]

Ask her to prove Christianity isn't a work of fiction. That's all there is to it.

She can't, just like you can't prove yours. It's a belief. If she chooses to cast that aside, then obviously, she is narrow minded, and you should just ignore her if she ever mention religion. Just walk out.

BTW, I'm Catholic. But I don't like shoving religion down anyone's throat. I believe that is the worst way to help your cause.

[Lelygax]

Why are you supporting the "typical reaction" when you already chastised him for generalizing the Christian faith?

Uzo is only explaining to him that his mother said that because she loves him and care for him, not supporting any side, being neutral. (I've seen that uzo tries to sound cold some times, but he is a kind guy, correct me if Im wrong since Im here for less than a month)

Also, my mom has came at me with a knife more than once over living my life in a way she didn't much care for, pitched unopened soda cans at my head for just going out with friends after work (I'm 27 btw), even threatened me with a tire iron when I had an auto accident, 'cuz, ya know, accident implies "calculated action" in her world when it comes to me. I'm sure she'll do half of this shit again before we're dead; I'm sure she's got new crazy cookin' up for me as I'm typing this, she's just got to wait for me slip up.

Wow, are you okay right now? Now I see why you choose that kind of study. It's hard when these type of things happen and you knows that the person doing that still loves you and so you cant hate them for doing that, Its only their own way of caring for us...