Topic: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches

[Gunlord]

but about fair and equal pay for equal work, equal respect and equal opportunities based on the merits of the individual rather than circumstances brought about by happenstance such as place of birth, race/sexuality/gender etc.

'Tis a fair point, and one I've heard before, but so long as humans are humans I don't believe "unearned" privilege will ever disappear. Human beings are irrational--not invariably so (I would hope we here at the CVD are exceptions, after all) but generally so, I think it is fair to say. As much as they would like to pretend otherwise, even subconsciously, people judge others based on characteristics which are apparently irrelevant. Not just race/gender/sexuality but even things like height! There have been several studies which show that tall people make more money generally, even when you wouldn't expect it (see http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/02/02/cb.tall.people/index.html). So long as our hindbrains influence our behavior, consciously or not, I have little hope 'unearned' privilege will ever be a thing of the past--I suppose we can try to fight it, but I consider our prospects of success low.

It seems I'm a pessimistic prunyuu today...:/

[Super Waffle]

We're going to be critical of porn because porn is bad.

So let's JUMP INTO damsels in distress.

freud.jpg


So how does my corruption fiction work into your theory?  Huh, lady with stupid earrings who thinks she's all psychoanalytically big and bad because she made a YouTube video?  You can't really say Sophia was DISEMPOWERED when she was given the ability to blow up a planet, now can you?

[Gunlord]

Your corruption fiction empowers Lil' Gunlord, if you know what I mean *_*

[Abnormal Freak]

I'm just curious where this talk of feminism applies to a series like No More Heroes and what Sarkeesian's feelz would be on the subject? Because one of the driving focuses of Travis Touchdown's is to get some hot, tasty poon by being the best assassin there is. It's satirical but it also relishes in the idea; it's not as if SUDA51 throws in this bonerworthy female character that he sexualizes at every turn and pretends to be above it all, yet it's still rife with comedy and satire. So how does one approach that? Is such a game or story "bad"? Does it objectify women? Does it sow and further propagate this so-called sexism? Does real life really have a big bearing on media entertainment and vice versa, shaping the outlook one has for fellow human beings? Can stuff that would perhaps be wrong IRL be acceptable in fiction given the fact it's not real? Can art be allowed to venture in whatever territory it pleases without being consumed by the all-destroying disease of political correctness? Or are y'all just a buncha La Blue Girl-hatin' ninnies? >:O

:p

I'm genuinely curious. Because games ARE escapism. I'm all for more female leads who aren't overly sexualized (one could argue that the inherent beauty in women makes taking the sex appeal away impossible, but...), who are strong and smart, etc. But I'm also for not waving fingers saying "This is bad" and "Things need to change to better understand our hoomanitee."

[Lelygax]

We will know if she is really doing his homework and not only using this money for another things if she mentions Time Gal, since she mentioned Dragon's Lair, maybe she will mention this game too. Im talking about this specific game because its a little obscure but features a girl as the main protagonist, also its a old game.

[Ratty]

Does real life really have a big bearing on media entertainment and vice versa, shaping the outlook one has for fellow human beings? Can stuff that would perhaps be wrong IRL be acceptable in fiction given the fact it's not real? Can art be allowed to venture in whatever territory it pleases without being consumed by the all-destroying disease of political correctness? Or are y'all just a buncha La Blue Girl-hatin' ninnies? >:O

Sarkeesian attempts to address this question within the first minute of the video. Quote "Remember that it's both possible, and even necessary, to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of it's more problematic or pernicious aspects."

Escapism and massively popular entertainment have a lot to tell us about popularly held desires, fears and beliefs in a wide range of areas.
The fact that these works are popular demonstrates that their ideas resonate with a large audience and help further shape and solidify the views in the public at large. Regardless of how "serious" authors intend their works to be, the way the works affect their audience speaks volumes about said audience. Particularly when it comes to commercial products like AAA games which are researched and focus grouped to appeal to the largest non-casual game buying demographic. And obviously do appeal to this group if they're successful.

You can say "It's just a game/book/movie etc." but if you're afraid of your favorite pieces of media being examined it stands to reason that, consciously or unconsciously, you're afraid there might be something wrong with them. Or more to the point, that the employed tropes and the messages they convey might shine a light on something unpleasant in your own views or tastes.

It's not about trying to be "politically correct", it's about trying to understand what we believe, or desperately want to believe, why we believe these things, and what affect these beliefs have on us and the world at large. You improve yourself and society best by first recognizing and understanding your own faults.

Here's a pretty good article briefly looking at a few examples of disturbing female-fearing imagery in popular games and their possible causes from a male perspective. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_259/7705-Vaginophobia

'Tis a fair point, and one I've heard before, but so long as humans are humans I don't believe "unearned" privilege will ever disappear. Human beings are irrational--not invariably so (I would hope we here at the CVD are exceptions, after all) but generally so, I think it is fair to say. As much as they would like to pretend otherwise, even subconsciously, people judge others based on characteristics which are apparently irrelevant. Not just race/gender/sexuality but even things like height! There have been several studies which show that tall people make more money generally, even when you wouldn't expect it (see http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/02/02/cb.tall.people/index.html). So long as our hindbrains influence our behavior, consciously or not, I have little hope 'unearned' privilege will ever be a thing of the past--I suppose we can try to fight it, but I consider our prospects of success low.

Perhaps, but that's no reason to stop struggling for improvement in the hope that one day humankind will be able to overcome harmful instinct with technical advances and a greater understanding of his (or her!) own nature. Trying to make life better for all in the meantime.

[Mooning Freddy]

I wonder whether you can, for instance, try to analyze Japanese culture by studying Japanese anime and hentai.
I remember I had a conversation with a girl who said that there's this thing in Japan that Japanese girls always behave shy and passive during intercourse, to the point where they're always acting like they don't want it.
It sounds very, very disturbing from the Western point of view, but perhaps the Japanese conservative culture makes women who behave that way more desirable in the male's perspective. 

[Ratty]

I wonder whether you can, for instance, try to analyze Japanese culture by studying Japanese anime and hentai.

You can, but you'll need to know a lot about the history, social and environmental pressures of the country to do it really properly. Which is why this sort of analysis is probably best used to examine one's own culture in most cases. It's easier to distance yourself from your analysis with other cultures but (especially for ones you have no direct experience with) it's also easier to make overbroad or false assumptions. And after all if your ultimate goal is to start discussions to get people reflecting and thinking critically to improve society, that's something that has to happen between the people within the society in question.

I remember I had a conversation with a girl who said that there's this thing in Japan that Japanese girls always behave shy and passive during intercourse, to the point where they're always acting like they don't want it.
It sounds very, very disturbing from the Western point of view, but perhaps the Japanese conservative culture makes women who behave that way more desirable in the male's perspective. 

Japan has been self-rated as one of the most misogynistic 1st world countries, having never lived there I can't speak to the truth of falsehood of this but I can say that there's obviously a LOT of anxiety about social roles and identity there, it's natural to assume this extends to gender roles.

We're talking about a historically isolated and insular country, dealing with the clash of very conservative traditionalist values running head-on into a highly connected, high tech modern reality. Struggling with increasing feelings of isolation as the importance of traditional blood familial relationships wanes, and dealing with the easy to see if hard to define effects of America's victory then long occupation following WW2. It's not difficult to see why "traditionally submissive" and virginal women would be seen as desirable. A man who is unsure of his importance or place in the world might find her as a sort of anchor to assure himself of his masculine potency and master of the house/breadwinner role.

It reminds me of the recent fad I heard is going on there. http://travel.cnn.com/tokyo/life/tokyo-dentist-offers-make-your-teeth-look-worse-035816 Where women have cosmetic surgery to make their teeth look more crooked, possibly to appear more "girl next door" cute and approachable.

[Laina]

It's called yaeba. They've always considered it cute, not exactly sure why. One theory is that it appears "youthful" because it's reminiscent of a kid whose adult teeth haven't fully grown in yet & are still trying to fit in with little tiny baby teeth, hence the overlap.

http://www.tofugu.com/2012/04/25/why-crooked-teeth-are-straight-up-beautiful-in-japan/

[Mooning Freddy]

Samus Meets With Her Agent

[Abnormal Freak]

You can say "It's just a game/book/movie etc." but if you're afraid of your favorite pieces of media being examined it stands to reason that, consciously or unconsciously, you're afraid there might be something wrong with them. Or more to the point, that the employed tropes and the messages they convey might shine a light on something unpleasant in your own views or tastes.

It's not that I care if somebody says that my tastes and worldviews (which don't often match up; honestly, "what you enjoy is an extension of yourself" doesn't ring true) are "bad" or what have you, it's that a person like Sarkeesian usually doesn't bring this kind of attention to something without a grander scheme of wanting to do away with such a thing. She obviously hates the portrayal of women in video games and wishes for change. It's not a challenge of one's desires that gets people's feathers riled up; it's a threat that perhaps someday, certain things will be deemed inappropriate and not allowed in the art medium of video games, which will get pummeled considering its relatively young age and its perception as children's entertainment first and foremost, and because weak-minded people are too eager to follow along with such a crusade.

And I'm saying that art should be allowed to exist without pressure (or worse, LAW, should it ever get that far--and we know all too well that there are many politicians who'd like to regulate video games) to steer it a certain way and dumb it down because a group of folks don't like boobies in video games. If all they wanna do is try to encourage developers to create more strong female leads, I'm cool with that, but what I've seen of Sarkeesian, she comes across as very damning.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

I'm pretty sure that's not what she means to portray.  I don't know where you're getting that from, considering the words said in the preface.
I don't see this agenda you're seeing.  What I am seeing, however, is personal paranoia.

And, again, why do people continuously miss this quote from her?: ""Remember that it's both possible, and even necessary, to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of it's more problematic or pernicious aspects."

So you can enjoy NMH while at the same time being critical of what it's doing.  I own the game.  I own many games where this happens.  The point is moot.

[Abnormal Freak]

That's just trying to shame one aspect of the game calling it unacceptable. Me, I like the over-the-top sex and violence of SUDA51 games. Why should it be necessary to be critical of certain aspects as if the sexualization of female characters in NMH is bad? That's what it sounds to me that you're saying: enjoy the game but shun the "bad stuff." (Correct me if I'm reading your post wrong.) Even though that stuff is so inherently wrapped up in the whole viewpoint and focus of the game (to the point where the PS3 remake has a "sexy girls' costume" mode and Japanese pre-orderes were shipped out with an almost-adult-only partial nudie book) that it doesn't make sense to enjoy only the rest of it. Do you shut your eyes during all the phone conversations in NMH2 where Sylvia Christel is being ogled up and down in a first-person view with loads of jigglage and leggage? :p

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Yes.
You are reading my post wrong.

[TheouAegis]

How do we even know some of these damsels in distress aren't really the architects of their own abduction? Double Dragon probably wasn't staged -- that's violent. I mean, Peach is constantly getting abducted by Bowser. Why? Bowser's not obviously doing anything to her -- she's always hamming it up ("Oh, Mariooooo~~!"), is always in impeccable condition when Mario saves her... It's not like Bowser actually ever endangers her. I think she's just trying to get Mario to stop sitting around the house eating spaghetti all day. And hey, there are a lot of clogged pipes in the Mushroom Kingdom, so maybe she's trying to get him off his butt and out there unclogging the sewer system.


Also, in response to the link Ratty posted about Vaginophobia, one of the people quoted in it said

"If you watch any horror movies, like if you watch the Aliens series, the chances are whatever is horrible has to do with vaginas, pregnancy, childbirth, wet stuff. It's just all there."

...
Aliens was about PENISES! Yes, it was a very sexualized horror, but it was about PENISES. The xenomorphs were giant penises with legs. No, I'm not making that up. The facehugger was about fellatio. The alien bursting out of the gut, sure that's a bit vaginophobic maybe, but 75% of the aliens were about PENISES until the queen was introduced.