Topic: Castlevania: Lords of Shadow - Mirror of Fate 3DS (Discussion Thread)

[Dengo vlad tepes]

It's funny to think of where they could go if they just kept going like that. One day we could end up with a game called Castlevania: Lords of Shadow - Mirror of Fate ~ God of Doom: Mask of Faith - King of Death ~ Shimmy of Wall: Cox of Dave - Ruler of Fortune ~ Power of Awesome. Only available on Nintendo's new handheld, 4DWiiX U La Woosh Bang.

wo0ow you are so futuric !!! 

[James Belmont]

wo0ow you are so futuric !!! 

Heck yeah. I'm a regular Doc Brown. 

[Munchy]

I know it's not going to happen but I'd love for the MoF trailer to use this music:

Night Slashers - Night Slashers!

[Dengo vlad tepes]

Heck yeah. I'm a regular Doc Brown. 

well doc brown , should be proud of his regular crown !

[crisis]

Heck yeah. I'm a regular Doc Brown. 

PLOK!

[Lumas]

Correct. I'm just going off what can be gleaned from the article and slight extrapolations.

I didn't say -only- bosses will be fought in 3D. I just said bosses will be fought in 3D. Important distinction there. Frankly, any more than that would be even more negative.

If you take mechanics from LoS and put it into a 2.5D game, it becomes more like a beat em up (which is what 3D action games are more like in 2D space). I hate 95% of all beat em ups. Sounds problematic to me. It should even concern anyone who wants even a more classicvania-like approach, since classicvanias were still for the most part 2D platformers--not 2D beat em ups.

It's still a negative for me if a game doesn't. Whether the game can make up for that on other issues is another matter.

I was speaking of depth in the context of the gameplay. The plot of a game like this is only a side issue for me, although it can have some level of importance. Trevor's motivation may be just the generic "Belmont's duty" theme, or "right my family's honor/reputation" given what Gabriel has done to it. Those are a bit less generic than "You killed my girl you gotta die" plots, especially the second, but not really too interesting in and of themselves. But that's too much into speculation anyway--it's perfectly possible that they might do something amazing with the motivation and make it more interesting though, since I don't think anything has been spelled out on that particular issue in the article.

I'm assuming each part will be shorter than if the game concentrated on only 1-2 characters due to resource limits placed on the devs. This is an area where one has to take what they're telling you about the game and make assumptions based on industry norms and typical developer behavior (if one is going to talk about the gameplay at all from the info in an 8 page article anyway).

For example, some people in the past would talk about how Konami should've developed a 30 hour 2D Metroidvania on PS3 with HD artwork, all new enemy sprites, and no asset reuse, but these types of expectations are a fantasy and that just isn't how video game development works. While spreading the game out over 4 time periods and 4 main characters and still maintaining a meaty enough portion of the game for each of those 4 segments to offer a large enough environment for a lot of non-linear exploration isn't as big of an impossibility as that 30 hour PS3 Metroidvania canard, I would still say it's highly unlikely given the scope of a game under modern dev conditions. With nearly every mass market major production of a video game studio, it has set limits it must stay within to remain feasible and profitable. Devs are always performing a balancing act--trying to have as big a scope as they can while cutting as many corners as they can and still putting out something that will cater to enough of the consumer's needs that he/she will come back for more. And it must still cost them a low enough amount of money that they'll still make a tidy profit on it.

Given that kind of reality, I expected tons of asset reuse in Iga produced games, a relatively short play time, and SD sprite/area art. Now from MoF, I expect 4 small segmented environments with a lot of asset reuse or one large environment that's mostly the same in each time period with and only moderate asset reuse. Their budget is probably much bigger than a typical Iga produced game so they have more leeway, but it's not so big that it'll be 4 huge environments with little-to-no asset reuse.

The time periods separating the characters is an issue because one of the ways they'd keep their costs reasonable is by making the 4 environments rather small individually (or they will have a ton of reused assets). Smaller environments in a Metroidvania means less interconnection and less opportunities for nonlinear aspects to play much of a meaningful role. CV3 isn't a Metroidvania, so those concerns don't really apply to it. Take OoE and PoR: Since there are many little maps rather than one big interconnected one, those maps are more linear than one huge one, like SotN/CotM/HoD/AoS/DoS. Frankly, I'd probably hope for tons of asset reuse across the time periods and a huge environment rather than less asset reuse across the time periods and 4 small ones.

You have a much shorter list of what Castlevania really needs than I do; most of it seems to be style issues and rather easily fulfilled. Don't you have any gameplay requirements? The game has to play a certain way, etc? You likely have hidden expectations that you haven't thought of. Like if CV had all that you mentioned but suddenly became a FPS, you'd go mad.

It'd be too horrifically boring for me to ever attempt to grind like that, but I don't know why you'd want to deny someone that option if that's how he/she wants to play the game. I don't really think one can easily out-grind a game like CotM or OoE anyway though. The gains given by the leveling system are too slight for how much time you'd have to put in to make the games really easy. Most would probably sooner quit than grind to level 70 to kill some boss midway easily.
To you perhaps, not to me.
"Working" is the minimum. I'm looking for more than that. Does one weapon type work? Yes. Is it ideal if you like a lot of gameplay variation? No.

I don't like 3D combat, so I view it as a flat negative. Enemies in 3D action games typically take too many hits and you are very often required to clear entire rooms of them to progress rather than only killing what's directly in your way, making for a more tedious experience than your typical 2D platformer.

RPG systems provide a lot more depth than new combos, which is why people refer to hack and slashers derisively rather than as a pinnacle of tactical and strategic brilliance, but actually consider games of the RPG genre to at least sometimes possess a modicum of depth. Not that Metroidvanias are "a pinnacle of tactical and strategic brilliance" either. They're more on the level of RPG-lite in their implementations, but the RPG systems help add a little bit of that to spice up a more typical platformer experience. A sort of miniture injection of depth.

No, it doesn't necessarily, because for one, "rumored" doesn't debunk anything, and two, you have to interpret something like this out of PR-speak:

"Despite the fact that you'll be exploring Dracula's castle with 4 different characters, you won't simply be retreading the same ground. Changes in the environment over time, as well as each character's specific abilities, ensure that the action stays interesting."

What that means to me is "a large hub portion of the castle will be the same except we'll change up textures on some rooms to alter the mood, add some rubble in certain places, put some diverted paths that will only open in a specific time period or to certain characters, and some other time sensitive changes to specific rooms, like different enemy sets." When interpreting exclusive previews for video games, one has to look through PR spin on potentially negative areas or areas that look unbelievable and assume about a few levels better than the worst to get closer to how the game will turn out.

For example, with Portrait of Ruin, an article hyping it might've said "This game is utterly huge--it's quite possibly the largest Castlevania to date. Four painting worlds, in addition to hidden paintings, and a main castle, covering hundreds of rooms full of enemies to slay." Immediately I'd look at something like that and say "there's going to be a lot of asset reuse, since it's simply not feasible for them to do that fully fleshed out on a budget similar to Dawn of Sorrow's. Since there are painting worlds off from the main castle, the main castle will probably be smaller than DoS' and the painting worlds will be more like mini-levels than anything expansive." Everything in PR pieces has to be taken with a grain of salt because they're intentionally trying to hype whatever game they're covering and make it seem better than the final product will end up being. If Skyrim is going to span 10,000 square miles or whatever, you can bet huge portions of that will be empty without much there besides occasional enemies roaming about and you can bet it'll be full of bugs due to the huge scope being too large to squash every one. If Disgaea is going to offer "hundreds" of hours of gameplay content, you can bet the main game will take the time of a typical SRPG and most of the rest of the hundreds of hours of time will be spent in randomly generated maps killing randomly generated enemies to reach an incremental goal rather than tailor made maps specifically designed to be strategically challenging like the main game. Mind you I like both of those games, but one can get close to the truth about them through the hype if one interprets the PR the right way.

You'll note I said a generic "CV fans" have a problem with it. I just threw that in there because I've seen so many people complain about it on here, so I figured it'd be worth putting down as a problem. I myself wouldn't really complain about it, unless it's done to ridiculous levels and they have a high budget (which CV games don't have). I view asset reuse as a necessary evil for niche games, since they simply can't afford to make the game any other way.

I don't trust subjective judgments from video game journalists, or anyone really, to represent my own. They might think the gameplay of LoS "feels great" for all I know (given that they're writing for a major video game publication, they probably do). I just look for factual statements from an article and let those decide whether I think I'd like it.

Oh great, so analysis based on factual statements from the article about what the game is like is met with "LOL YOU'RE NEGATIVE ABOUT THE GAME JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE MERCURY STEAM." Did you pause after writing that for even a second to go beyond that? To think about WHY I don't like Mercury Steam? Do you think I took a look at their name or something and decided it didn't sit well with me, so I have to hate them? Would that make any sense? No. If Mercury Steam made games I LIKE, I would LIKE Mercury Steam. If Mercury Steam makes games I DON'T LIKE, then I DON'T LIKE Mercury Steam. In the end, yes it is about the "ACTUAL GAME."

I see you points Charlotte and they are very valid points so you have earned my respect but again I see them as personal concerns and not problems to which could be disastrous for a castlevania game due to the fact there have been far worse games in the series. There is nothing wrong with voicing your concern and Im not attacking those concerns, thats why we have these forums I personally just see them as concerns and not problems. We will have to wait to see what exactly we are in store for with this new title, so far personally I think its looking more like a castlevania than what LOS offered but I personally am reluctant because I feel burned from MS. I felt like I got a different game than the one I was promised albeit LOS was a great game but not really that much of a Castlevania or at least one I prefer.

[Reinhart77]

They think Trevor is. Trevor's sprite has its shadow shift hues to green, but I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be a dirty type of yellow. It isn't actually green.

I think the SotN sprite was designed to look like the artwork in a japanese guidebook for CV III (as were Sypha's and Grant's). 



No green in this art anyways.

[Aridale]

yeah I always thought Trevs gear was yellow as well. It just kinda looks green cause of the shading

[Reinhart77]

Correct. I'm just going off what can be gleaned from the article and slight extrapolations.

I didn't say -only- bosses will be fought in 3D. I just said bosses will be fought in 3D. Important distinction there. Frankly, any more than that would be even more negative.

If you take mechanics from LoS and put it into a 2.5D game, it becomes more like a beat em up (which is what 3D action games are more like in 2D space). I hate 95% of all beat em ups. Sounds problematic to me. It should even concern anyone who wants even a more classicvania-like approach, since classicvanias were still for the most part 2D platformers--not 2D beat em ups.

It's still a negative for me if a game doesn't. Whether the game can make up for that on other issues is another matter.

This describes pretty well what is "wrong" with this game.  A side-scrolling "beat-em-up" is not that appealing a prospect when you're looking for a game that feels like a real Castlevania game.  That being said, I'm all for the game even like this, cause it'll be a new experience.  I just wouldn't want all future handheld games to go this route, but I'm sure they won't so I'm fine.  This also may be the best format to give us a Castlevania in stereoscopic 3D, so I'm hyped actually.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

I'm alright with the title.
I've seen it before in "Final Fantasy - Crystal Chronicles - Echoes of Time" and "Ring of Fates".

[Flame]

Not nearly as bad as Final Fantasy XII - 2

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

X-2 and XIII-2, amirite?

[James Belmont]

PLOK!

You're the second person I've encountered who remembers Plok.

[Inccubus]

You're the second person I've encountered who remembers Plok.

Then I guess I'll be the third. I even remember the EGM article when it was reviewed for the first time.


The screen shots so far kinda give me an SCV4 vibe for some reason.

[Sindra]

Then I guess I'll be the third. I even remember the EGM article when it was reviewed for the first time.


The screen shots so far kinda give me an SCV4 vibe for some reason.

Oh don't worry...it's a tease. It'll be something completely different, though they'll swear they modeled it off of a popular past Castlevania game.