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Offline KaZudra

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Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
« on: May 19, 2014, 03:10:37 PM »
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These are questions about the thinks that needed explanations, but we never got...




-If the toymaker made Alucard's whip, where was he in MoF?, more importantly, LoS2 states that he heart was locked away from Walter, soooo, what's up?
-If a Replica is an Exact Copy, why does Trevor's Vampire Killer look Different
-What makes Gabe's VK so special? LoS's story was the feats of the man, not the weapon, so why doesn't Trevor's VK kill Drac?
-Why Doesn't Viktor have Trevor's VK if the ending of MoF implies that Simon passes it down?
-why can't Alucard use the shield that is clearly sitting on his belt?
-Everything concerning Inner Dracula
-Everything concerning the magic castle on both Drac's and Alucard's ends

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Offline TatteredSeraph

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Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2014, 03:20:18 PM »
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The Toymaker seems to be hanging around in the background in MoF, after all, you see him during Trevor's section after the Daemon Lord is defeated by Trevor.  As for the 'shield' on Alucard's hip, I think that it was meant to be just fancy armour to protect his hip and thigh.
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Offline DragonSlayr81

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Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2014, 05:25:02 PM »
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The Toymaker seems to be hanging around in the background in MoF, after all, you see him during Trevor's section after the Daemon Lord is defeated by Trevor. 
That's true, but there's also the whole part about how he locked his heart away from Walter and went into slumber because of that. If he had his heart hidden and he went into slumber because of Walter, why did appear in MoF and why does he know about the events of MoF. The whole puppet play was to accent the tragic story of the Toymaker, making his "awakening" seem like it's been SINCE he went into slumber from Walter(which would predate the first LoS), but he obviously had to have been awake afterwards to have appeared in MoS and know of Gabula(which he obviously did). That only begs the question, why stress the reason why he was asleep(in the play) was NOT the reason he was asleep in LoS2? It WAS the initial event of slumber, but that wasn't important, given he DID awaken to loom over in the shadows in MoF, then for some strange reason, put himself to sleep again(in which he'd be awaken from in LoS2).

Don't forget how he looked in MoF was similar to how he looked when possessed by the castle's blood. Really, I love his design(probably my favorite in all of the LoS games), but they could've written his background a little better. It's kinda like what I was talking about in the other thread regarding continuity. If you are going to write a character's complete story/background, get it squared away and don't introduce new things as you along.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 05:27:12 PM by DragonSlayr81 »

Offline darkwzrd4

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Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2014, 05:42:40 PM »
-1
That's true, but there's also the whole part about how he locked his heart away from Walter and went into slumber because of that. If he had his heart hidden and he went into slumber because of Walter, why did appear in MoF and why does he know about the events of MoF. The whole puppet play was to accent the tragic story of the Toymaker, making his "awakening" seem like it's been SINCE he went into slumber from Walter(which would predate the first LoS), but he obviously had to have been awake afterwards to have appeared in MoS and know of Gabula(which he obviously did). That only begs the question, why stress the reason why he was asleep(in the play) was NOT the reason he was asleep in LoS2? It WAS the initial event of slumber, but that wasn't important, given he DID awaken to loom over in the shadows in MoF, then for some strange reason, put himself to sleep again(in which he'd be awaken from in LoS2).

Don't forget how he looked in MoF was similar to how he looked when possessed by the castle's blood. Really, I love his design(probably my favorite in all of the LoS games), but they could've written his background a little better. It's kinda like what I was talking about in the other thread regarding continuity. If you are going to write a character's complete story/background, get it squared away and don't introduce new things as you along.
I kind of get the feeling that despite how MS built up our hopes and anticipation for LoS2, they didn't really care about the game or the story that much. It's probably why we got that shitty ambiguous ending.
Here's another plot hole: Marie. In the first game after Satan is defeated, she ascends to heaven with the other spirits of the dead. Yet, in LoS2 she is back and flesh and blood as if she was alive and then once she has played her part, she is gone as if she was never there. Plus, you have her role in the DLC where she warped Trevorcard to different points in the castle once he reclaimed Gabula's void sword and chaos claws. Explain that. And, while I'm on the subject of Marie, explain Camilla in LoS2. Gabriel destroyed her in LoS1. How is she back?

Again, I don't think MS gave a damn about the LoS2's story or the consistency of the trilogy. It's like after LoS1 they stopped caring despite hyping the games. May that liar Cox suffer and slow painful death.
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Offline KaZudra

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Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2014, 06:18:29 PM »
+2
The entire Toymaker issue just puts a thorn in my side, He's is legitimately a really good character, but ultimately pooped on with terrible plot-hole writing.
Same with Carmilla, there is no reason she should exist, even with a crackpot explanation that Dracula can travel through time still wouldn't explain how she ALREADY knows Dracula.


Also Cox didn't do anything wrong, based on what was there, he was spot on, the trailer DID imply that Dragon mode was playable, and the evidence that the game was butchered is all over the code AND invisible Platforms also helps this case.

Enric Álvarez is the true offender in this situation, being the Director AND writer, Cox was just a producer, and honestly should have had a tighter leash on Álvarez along with more time and money into the project. even the DLC didn't even answer any quistions, in fact it just pissed of the fans more.

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Offline Anglachel

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Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2014, 06:34:11 PM »
+1
I'm still curious how Alucard found out about the whole Satan spiel. I thought the long sleep he had made him forget about everything, and when he awoke, the Mirror only showed him what happened to himself. Perhaps he regained his memory of Gabriel's misfortune, but it's only a theory.

Also, Gabriel can turn into mist/bats in the epilogue. Clear plot hole, unless he lost that too fighting the Soldier of Satan in the alleyway.

I'm still really disappointed that the city was changed from the way the epilogue showed it. It would have been cool to have gothic architecture right next to glowing neon signs. Plus, I thought that there wasn't going to be "teleporting." Rather, the castle would be ruined by modern times and everything was built on that. And I also thought we'd be fighting Belmonts over many centuries (imagine fighting them during the time of the Gulf War.)

Where's the Lost Soul? Where did the fragments of the Mirror come from? Why does Zobek, the Lord of the Dead, need a bodyguard when he had(s?) servants of powerful Necromancers?

Devil Mask plothole still ignored.

What did Alucard do with Dark Pain?
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Offline Flame

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Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2014, 09:45:18 PM »
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Marie is still dead, She seems to be able to leave Heaven at will or something.

Carmilla is easy to explain. her blood runs through Gabe's undead veins. She became his grandmother when he took laura's blood. And Since the castle is this whole manifestation of his power, she manifested as well. And Since the castle and his own vampiric nature are rebelling against him so he doesn't leave the castle, she manifests as a possessive entity bent on keeping Gabriel in the castle. She's not the carmilla we knew. She's a phantom created from Dracul's blood, memories, and the power of the castle.

Toymaker was definitely a plothole.

Young Trevor and the wolf are as well.  Supposedly they are tied to Alucard, or perhaps Marie, but the game never explains how.
Laura and Gabriel arrive in the deepest cave of the castle and... they find IGA.

Offline Dremn

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Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2014, 09:55:12 PM »
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Yea the entirety of Lords is a big mess. I made a big thread reflecting on the LoS series after LoS2 was out and the unexplained plotholes in the story connecting all three games really irk me the most about LoS. For a reboot trying to be so serious it had a bad habit of forgetting about of a lot of key things or pretending some of it didn't matter.

The biggest thing that will always bug me is the validity of the Combat Cross being the only weapon capable of killing Dracula, it was never fully explained or touched upon what made it such an important weapon. Like KaZiZ said LoS was all about the feats of Gabriel, he had magic at his disposal but the Combat Cross was a man made weapon, and it didn't become a vampire killing tool until the stake was attached.

Heck they never explained why Gabriel was going around upgrading the Combat Cross in the first place or how he knew about it.

Then in LoS2 it can apparently kill Satan for good even though he's not a vampire? But we can talk forever in another thread about how sloppy LoS2's ending was.


Offline Flame

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Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2014, 11:13:33 PM »
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Heck they never explained why Gabriel was going around upgrading the Combat Cross in the first place or how he knew about it.
How do classic belmonts upgrade their whip from leather to a flail, to a chain whip? :P

it falls into 'videogamey" territory. Also, its not hard- it says that lots of the upgrades were upgrades gandolfi made but which were not sanctioned by the Brotherhood, so he left them scattered around in brotherhood crypts. as for how gabe knew, well, there's a thing shaped like the combat cross. "i wonder what happens if I put it in there?"

also, he probably knew about the upgrades if he was the guy who used the weapon.

as for how its so special, Im gonna just guess it was just the best thing gandolfi ever made. It was just a high class weapon in it's own right, that became super powerful when it was fully upgraded with more holy shit. And so copies of it just can't stand up to it's power. they can kill lesser undead and such, but against Dracula, it can not kill him completely, because only the VK stake can.

remember, Simon still defeated Dracula by stabbing him. he just didn;t finish him off the way Gabe finished off Carmilla.
Laura and Gabriel arrive in the deepest cave of the castle and... they find IGA.

Offline SSBBfan666

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Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2014, 12:41:11 AM »
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allow me to answers some of the 'plotholes'.

1. The reason why the Vampire Killer was the most powerful weapon in the trilogy (and the only weapon capable of killing a true immortal like Dracula) is beacuse the weapons was forged from one of the nails that was used to crucify Jesus, says so right in the travelbook oin the first game. So essentially it would make sense that the VK is the ultimate symbol of god and everything holy, it had the blood of said god/jesus assmiliatted into it (sorta) therefor his/her/its power as well, the upgrades just made it better.

2.  The Toy Maker was 'woken up' by Dracula in the past for some assistance (shits&giggles) in creating more creatures for the castle (the puppets, the resurrected Daemon Lord, etc) and other things (the Electric Batteries Trevor finds and makes use as secondary weapons) while the Toy Maker didn't really come back (due to his heart still in hiding amongst his puppets) Dracula may have let the castle blood animate him for the Vampire Lords benefit (his corrupted appearance in Mirror of Fate. this would also lead to how the old man recognizes the Prince after regaining his memories, he would see what Dracula had him do while under the influence of the blood/curse) maybe his disappearance afterword would be that he was taken to heaven.

3. Carmilla, the secuctive witch/vampire queen. while she was killed off for good in the first game, Inner-Dracula, in the blood form, didn't want the only thing keeping it alive leaving the castle, so it tried a different approach at first with making a doppelganger of one the few woman that could have an effect on the Prince of Darkness (besides Marie since she was protected by god to help her husband, and possibly Laura, though she is gone) so it created the twisted clone of the late Queen based of the time she lived in said castle (the thing was around since the Bernhards, since they summoned it, and was bound to the castle in a form of sentience. So it would obviously know of who and what has been going on from its arrival to defeat at the hands of the one who's power kept it alive)+ add the knowledge of how the two initially met and what it knew of Carmilla (she had a slight attraction to Gabriel in the first game as well as her human appearance) and ramp that up to yandare qualities and you got yourself a twisted copy of the original.

4. The 'shield' on Alucards hip isn't really much of an effective itm to use as a shield, i think it was more of a place to store items (like Gabriel's pouch for Dark Crystals in the first game)+ it also helped holster Alucard's sword (The Crissaegrim) when he was still using the sheathe for it.

5. Marie coming back in LoS2 was god's way of steering Dracula away from his monstorous habits, helping Alucard and Marie in his/she/it's own way. he/she/it may have had a hand in Gabriel becoming  Dracula (as he was the only one who could stop Satan (to the point that Satan was terrified of the prospect of going head to head against the Vampire Lord with god-like powers) but the god didn't want to go down and risk being killed by a pissed off Dracula (with its own power, the Vampire Killer). back to the point, once Marie did her part in helping her husband, she was taken back to heaven (not really sure why, as i'm sure she wanted to be there for her husband and son) this just makes me wish for a epic family reunion including Victor, Simon Sypha Marie and the two vampires.

6. The only 'past' segment of the game, where you legitimatly were in midevil times after Mirror of Fate was essentially the prologue only (the meeting between father and son just showed what happened after the Great Explosion and leading to Dracula disappearance along with the castle vanishing. all the other segments where you went back to the castle took place in a seperate dimension (possibly the same dimansion where Gabriel struck down the Forgotten One) that was outside of the boundries of time and space but connected in several areas that aloowed Dracula to go back and forth between the two settings (Modern Times and the Castle).

7. The way Alucard knew of Satan and Zobek was through the mirro on the night he died, as he lay there dying, he saw what really happened to his dad and how he became Dracula. After the events of Mirror of Fate, durin the time from then till their meeting Alucard would eventually formulate a plan to get back at the Lord of the Dead and the Fallen Angel for what they did to the family. to an end hissword also played a special part. Also the Mirror of Fate was sentient in a way, as stated by young Trevor/ the Lost Soul being part of it.  Alucard also would have tracked and studied the Acolytes from afar to find out how they woul play a role in Satan's return later on, something he would end up informing his father on.

8. Zobek needed a bodyguard as he was stripped of all his power right after his first death (at Satan's hands) and woke up in the realm of  the dead (Limbo?) so he obsessivly researched and tried to recollect his power to come back to the mortal realm (which worked later, as seen in LoS2). so he created his bodyguard as a means for protection, seeing as he knew of the acolytes. he also collected the Vampire Killer as a way of getting Dracula to help him stop Satan and his children by making a deal he knew Dracula seemingly couldn't refuse (didn't work out for the Lord of the Dead though). however, Alucard also noticed this and would inform his old man of the wherabouts of his old weapon.

9. Victor's combat cross is most likely the same on that Simon used during his confrontation with his gramps (which was orifginally Trevor's). it would have been heavily modified like the Seraph Shoulders, Dark Gauntlet and Cyclone Boots that Victor also had on him. The devil mask was most likely left where it was, Zobek retrieved it , or it was sucked into hell for unknown reasons.

10. Alucard most likely stopped using the Dark Pain, seeing as it reminded him of his former life as a human, wasn't as effective as the Crissaegrim, or has it stored away in his poct dimension.

That's all i answered for now, feel free to contribute.

Offline EstebanT

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Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2014, 09:12:56 AM »
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@ SSBBfan666
I think the majority of what you listed seem like the most reasonable explanations for the plot holes in the series. Many of what you listed I thought of myself as possibilities.

That being said... A lot of those were not properly explained in game and many other just as likely guesses could be made that are different from yours, AKA you pulled them out of your ass.

Offline Dremn

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Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2014, 09:40:57 AM »
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1. The reason why the Vampire Killer was the most powerful weapon in the trilogy (and the only weapon capable of killing a true immortal like Dracula) is beacuse the weapons was forged from one of the nails that was used to crucify Jesus, says so right in the travelbook oin the first game. So essentially it would make sense that the VK is the ultimate symbol of god and everything holy, it had the blood of said god/jesus assmiliatted into it (sorta) therefor his/her/its power as well, the upgrades just made it better.

Well, jeez.

Ok, that explains everything then. :p


Offline crisis

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Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2014, 10:11:14 AM »
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they shoulda just never had Gabrian shatter the CC in the DLC cuz TBH it didnt make sense AFAIK and IIRC Zobek shouldnt have been able to touch it let alone rebuild it YGWIS?

the Necronomnomicon in MOF says his master desired Trevo's CC but for what purpose? Zobek already had the original. theres another plothole (inb4 random explanation "well maybe he needed it to see how to accurately reconstruct the original" blah blah, thats just nonsense lol)

i woulda preferred Gabrian CC being passed down the bloodline, with a "the weapon I once used, is now used against me" context. tragic irony/poetic justice, ya know? and that idea is infinitely better than the "multiple copies" poppycock that was in this saga

Offline Anglachel

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Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2014, 10:42:13 AM »
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they shoulda just never had Gabrian shatter the CC in the DLC cuz TBH it didnt make sense AFAIK and IIRC Zobek shouldnt have been able to touch it let alone rebuild it YGWIS?

the Necronomnomicon in MOF says his master desired Trevo's CC but for what purpose? Zobek already had the original. theres another plothole (inb4 random explanation "well maybe he needed it to see how to accurately reconstruct the original" blah blah, thats just nonsense lol)

i woulda preferred Gabrian CC being passed down the bloodline, with a "the weapon I once used, is now used against me" context. tragic irony/poetic justice, ya know? and that idea is infinitely better than the "multiple copies" poppycock that was in this saga

When I played through it, I thought that Zobek wanted it because he thought that it could kill Dracula. Maybe he planned on using to against Dracula to save himself.

Or, perhaps Zobek realized that Trevor's combat cross wasn't powerful enough to kill Dracula, and instead sought the true Vampire Killer that Gabriel used.
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Offline darkwzrd4

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Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2014, 12:00:05 PM »
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Or, maybe Zobek needed Trevor's to better understand how to reassemble Gabriel's CC.
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