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Offline Mooning Freddy

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History in Egypt: Prez. Mubarak resigns
« on: February 11, 2011, 12:03:02 PM »
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Following more than two weeks of riots never before seen in Egypt, the president of Egypt, Hosni Mubarak, has finally resigned from his duty after being the leading authority for 30 years.

The resignation came as a result of huge pressure by the people of Egypt, who crowded the streets to demonstrate by the millions, demanding it. The people of Egypt demand democracy, and civil freedoms, and for the first time in history, there is a chance for them to gain it.

The thing that is the most impressive about the revolution in Egypt was the spontaneity of it. Unlike other revolutions, this one happened instantly. It was organized mostly using the internet, and revealed the power which social networks like Facebook have in uniting various people for one goal. The revolution was so spontaneous that it had no leadership; No single person speaking for all; It united Muslims and secular population alike.

What will come out of it? I don't know. Being too optimistic about the middle east is being ignorant. Yet still... Observe the face of the new revolution - Sometimes all that is required for a change to occur is for people to cease being indifferent. 


p.s. That sounds a little bit like a castlevania quote, doesn't it?  ;D
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Re: History in Egypt: Prez. Mubarak resigns
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2011, 12:32:06 PM »
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Finally that Mubarak jerk stepped down after THIRTY fuckin' years of power. Hopefully there will be no more bloodshed in the streets of Egypt (did you see that 1 video of the military firing upon that one 22y/o civilian? It was sick). Praise be to Allah, God is great, etc.!

Offline Harrycombs

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Re: History in Egypt: Prez. Mubarak resigns
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2011, 03:36:34 PM »
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Being too optimistic about the middle east is being ignorant.

Throughout history the middle east had lead the world in defining modernization. It was only in the past 150 years with the brutal European intervention that split their countries apart, destroyed historic boundaries, destabilized countries, destroyed traditional orders, and lead to the desperation that allowed radical Islamists to take power. I think its about time we believe in the Arab people to take control of their own destinies again and not have it dictated to them by foreign powers. I am optimistic that the future of Egypt will be bright if the West respects their people's right to democracy. Hopefully the US wont intervene in the name of preventing Islamic radicalism. Really, if you read the Old Testament, its just as violent in its punishments as the Quran. For instance, the Torah clearly says that if a woman doesn't bleed on her wedding night that she is to be stoned to death. So why don't we have a problem with Jews stoning women to death in Israel? It will be the same with the Middle East in a matter of time. After democracy takes hold in the Middle East, they will inevitable except many western values and views on human rights. Any religion taken too literally is just as bad as Islamic radicalism.

So yeah, praise be to Allah, who's prophet even married a widowed woman! A religion founded by perhaps the most progressive man of his time can't be that bad. Perhaps in time the Middle East can once again become the bulwark of human progress. Its not ignorant at all to be optimistic.
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Offline Abnormal Freak

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Re: History in Egypt: Prez. Mubarak resigns
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2011, 04:41:13 PM »
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For instance, the Torah clearly says that if a woman doesn't bleed on her wedding night that she is to be stoned to death.

Uh... You realize that has to do with a woman being a virgin for her husband, don't you? And we're not just talking any woman, but a woman who is an Israelite and lives amongst those who are serving Yahweh at a time when He dwelt directly with the people, who were expected to live holy (set apart from the world; devoted to God) lifestyles for God after He had delivered them from captivity in Egypt; in this context, many sins were punished in very strong manners, including death. (The chapter goes on to command the stoning to death of any man and woman involved in an adulterous union.)

You also left out the part that if a man brings his wife to her father claiming the girl to not be a virgin, and her family provides proof of her virginity prior to being with her husband by presenting to the elders of the town a cloth with a bloodstain (the cloth would be under the woman's backside to catch any blood from her hymen breaking, which she would later use to also wipe up the rest after intercourse), then the man is to be punished for slandering a virgin. The cloth idea I believe was a cultural thing, and was implemented primarily to protect the woman, so that a man couldn't marry her, claim she wasn't a virgin when they copulated, and then divorce her—essentially a means of having sex with "no strings attached" and all that, in a group of people who shunned and punished adultery, unwed fornication, and sexual promiscuity.

So...you kinda left out a lotta stuff there. Rather conveniently, eh? ;p It's easy to put down a religion's supposed extreme rules and customs when you ignore the context of what it's all about.



Anyway, back on topic, it's good that this guy has finally stepped down. I believe I heard that the military will be in control for a time, during this interim stage until a decision can be made on who is to be the next leader? Let's hope the military serves the people, instead of causing even greater problems.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 04:47:04 PM by Abnormal Freak »
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Re: History in Egypt: Prez. Mubarak resigns
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2011, 07:47:36 PM »
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It is confirmed that the militia has power now and even though this action has other countries worried many remain optimistic. I had absolutely no idea what kind of state Egypt was in. For me it was one of the few, if not the only country where it was the most free of all. Then this riot thing happened and I finally understood what was going on. But kudos to the people taking action (and in more peaceful way too).

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Re: History in Egypt: Prez. Mubarak resigns
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2011, 07:54:22 PM »
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Uh... You realize that has to do with a woman being a virgin for her husband, don't you?
Uh... Yes. Of course.

Quote
And we're not just talking any woman, but a woman who is an Israelite and lives amongst those who are serving Yahweh at a time when He dwelt directly with the people, who were expected to live holy (set apart from the world; devoted to God) lifestyles for God after He had delivered them from captivity in Egypt; in this context, many sins were punished in very strong manners, including death. (The chapter goes on to command the stoning to death of any man and woman involved in an adulterous union.)
This changes nothing. It doesn't change the fact that punishing adultery with death is highly frowned upon in modern society. Also, stories about when the people who lived in a time which Yahweh was active would obviously serve as a moral foundation for future generations. And sins were punished in the same strong manners for centuries after these times.

Quote
You also left out the part that if a man brings his wife to her father claiming the girl to not be a virgin, and her family provides proof of her virginity prior to being with her husband by presenting to the elders of the town a cloth with a bloodstain (the cloth would be under the woman's backside to catch any blood from her hymen breaking, which she would later use to also wipe up the rest after intercourse), then the man is to be punished for slandering a virgin.

So what? Just because a girl lied about being a virgin, its okay for her to be put to death? It doesn't matter that a man slandering is wife would also be punished, but that there is an entire stigma against non-virgins in general. Its barbaric in this day and age. Few people actually believe in abstaining from premarital sex, it doesn't fit modern values.

Quote
The cloth idea I believe was a cultural thing, and was implemented primarily to protect the woman, so that a man couldn't marry her, claim she wasn't a virgin when they copulated, and then divorce her—essentially a means of having sex with "no strings attached" and all that, in a group of people who shunned and punished adultery, unwed fornication, and sexual promiscuity.

I understand why the cloth idea existed. I'm saying that no modern person would murder a poor girl for having premarital sex!

Quote
So...you kinda left out a lotta stuff there. Rather conveniently, eh? ;p It's easy to put down a religion's supposed extreme rules and customs when you ignore the context of what it's all about.

Conveniently you missed the whole point of what I wrote... I wasn't actually criticizing Judaism/Christianity, I was saying that traditional Islamic punishments would fall out of acceptance just like traditional Jewish/Christian punishments... I was not putting down a religion for its extreme rules and customs. I was saying that they all have them, and that religious customs are adapted to fit modern social norms. I was merely using the Old Testament as an example. The point of what I was saying is that Islam is just as capable of being the majority religion of a democratic nation as Christianity or Judaism.

Also, there are plenty of other extremes from the Old Testament I could site as well. Another example is that cursing a parent is punishable by death. Every angsty teenager in the world would be put to death if this was vigorously carried out. I just used the punishment for being a non-virgin as an example of extreme punishments in Judaism and Christianity, which were no nicer in their treatment of "sinners" than Islam. Its just that no western states actually employs biblical punishments anymore.

Quote
Anyway, back on topic, it's good that this guy has finally stepped down. I believe I heard that the military will be in control for a time, during this interim stage until a decision can be made on who is to be the next leader? Let's hope the military serves the people, instead of causing even greater problems.

The military is pretty popular. They will probably follow the example Turkey set.
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Offline Abnormal Freak

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Re: History in Egypt: Prez. Mubarak resigns
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2011, 10:46:25 PM »
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"This day and age," "modern values," "modern society"—oh, how the current generations do think of themselves as superior.

You seem to miss the whole point of the Hebrew faith. God's character doesn't change with time; morality is not relative; old ways do not become irrelevant because people of the now feel as if they are a part of some enlightened age.

The shame regarding non-virgins is one that, frankly, I wish still existed today; and besides, I was explaining why such a thing was looked down upon in those circles at that time. I think what you're getting at is that it would be wrong to stone someone to death for being adulterous or not a virgin before marriage, and I agree: those practices were particular to those people at that time. Would it be barbaric? That would imply that the people who did it then were primitive and barbaric; unadvanced, uncivilized. (Though they were a lowly desert people.) But it doesn't matter anymore because Christ, who was prophesied about since the beginning of the Old Testament, came and took sin upon Himself; thus, doing away with the "self-cleansing" practices ordered by God at the time, including the practices of the sacrificial lamb and all that.

Not like you believe in any of that, but saying, "It shouldn't be done now; it was barbaric," is kind of irrelevant, because nobody does that now, nor is it commanded of anyone. I highly doubt even the most strict Orthodox Jews put such practices into action, as they likely see many of these ordinances being specific to the Israelites of then.

So, it's not really a thing of adapting religion and religious practices to fit modern times (though many erroneously do this), but more interpreting Scriptural passages accurately in the contexts of the times, and of God saying, "This is no longer required of you," for reasons perhaps only known to God, though others can be speculated on.

The "cursing" thing is actually a whole lot more extreme than an angsty teen cursing his or her parents. ;) We're talking extremely lavish, forever damning-type curses—not simply saying, "Fuck you, dad!" or the sort (though surely that's bad, just not something deserving of death).

Anyway, apologies for derailing the thread some. I just felt that it was an odd comment to make, and so responded; but you've elaborated upon what you meant. Still, here I am sidetracking things even further, perhaps. ;) It's just that Judeo-Christianity is a very important subject to me—a lifestyle, even (although something I've sadly strayed from in recent months).
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 10:52:37 PM by Abnormal Freak »
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Offline Jorge D. Fuentes

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Re: History in Egypt: Prez. Mubarak resigns
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2011, 04:30:37 AM »
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So, it's not really a thing of adapting religion and religious practices to fit modern times (though many erroneously do this), but more interpreting Scriptural passages accurately in the contexts of the times...

But isn't that kind of the same thing?  They're still adapting it for modern times, just by saying "Oh well now it means this, but then it meant that" when really, it was supposed to always mean the same thing.

And they still stone people to death in the middle east, it's just not mentioned as much.
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Re: History in Egypt: Prez. Mubarak resigns
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2011, 08:16:39 AM »
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Abnormal freak, here is another example. Christians used to burn people at the stake for blasphemy. But we don't do that anymore. What I am saying is that the more brutal Islamic punishments will fall out of favor even though the religion itself doesn't change. Thats why democracy and human rights in the middle east isn't an impossible dream like some people argue.

I don't mean to offend your Judeo-Christian beliefs. I am saying that religion (and as you more accurately pointed out, interpretation of religion) does change over time.
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Re: History in Egypt: Prez. Mubarak resigns
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2011, 04:25:51 PM »
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But isn't that kind of the same thing?  They're still adapting it for modern times, just by saying "Oh well now it means this, but then it meant that" when really, it was supposed to always mean the same thing.

And they still stone people to death in the middle east, it's just not mentioned as much.

That's not at all what I'm saying, though. The interpretation doesn't change; it's realizing that certain things were commanded of a certain people at a certain time when understanding their circumstances. It's not saying, "It meant this then; it means this now"; it always means the same thing, it's just realizing that a lot of it doesn't particularly pertain to followers now; especially if one is a Messianic Jew who believes that Jesus is the Messiah, and understanding that He came to fulfill certain prophecies, and how much of what He did fulfilled and overruled a lot of the methods of "self-cleansing" that was required of the Hebrews in those days. (It's not really self-cleansing, since the Hebrews could not save themselves, but rather they were given commands to act out specific ways of coming to God and being cleansed.) Reading and studying these things helps Christian believers to know the Jewish roots of their faith, which can only strengthen their belief in it, and how all of those practices of cleansing and so forth were leading to Christ's act on the cross—pointing to Him as the ultimate Sacrificial Lamb, debt paid for all sin, no need for old methods of cleansing and sacrificing to God since His Son became the absolute sacrifice.

Harry: Many things are done in the name of God, and many so-called and even some actual Christians have done some horrendous things throughout history, but the Bible and the God of Abraham don't sanction such things. Surely you can understand the difference between a religion's teachings and how people can do things against such teachings and yet claim to do so in the name of the religion, can't you? Man's tainting of a religion by misinterpretation, ignorance, feigned membership and intentional malice and deceit do not alter the religion itself, though sadly it can have a huge impact on the world's perception of that religion. And as a Christian and someone who has studied the Bible, I know that there is nothing in the Old or New Testament that would sanction the burning of nonbelievers. It's simply not there; the Christian message is the exact opposite, in fact, showing the truth that we're all a wretched people who need a Savior, and commanding His followers to reach out to others in truth and love. (I'm sure you know that many men in the early Christian Church, including those who were with Jesus personally, His disciples, were martyred and went out peacefully, not attacking their assailants.) The bastardization of Christianity is a sickening thing, both to the world and Christ's followers, but one that is unavoidable due to the wickedness of men's hearts and the actions which stem from them. But as I've said, the ways which someone abuses the religion and its teachings do not alter the real faith.

Anyway, I hope the extremely harsh punishment in the Middle East can be done away with. I have Saudi Arabian friends and know at least some of the things that go on there, and it's troublesome. The crimes (sometimes "crimes" in quotations) they punish, and the ways in which they punish them—all that needs to be fixed, I believe. I agree that it doesn't belong in today's world—but it also had no place in the past. Hopefully, if the people of these countries feel that a lot of this needs to go, I hope they will rise up and take charge against those in power as well as militant individuals who want their evil way.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 04:28:25 PM by Abnormal Freak »
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Re: History in Egypt: Prez. Mubarak resigns
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2011, 08:13:28 PM »
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And as a Christian and someone who has studied the Bible

Just how much of the bible did you study? There are 44 volumes of the bible written by Christ's disciples that were omitted by the church before the very first publication.

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Re: History in Egypt: Prez. Mubarak resigns
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2011, 09:12:51 PM »
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While I won't wade into the religious debate, I have an Arab friend (though not an Egyptian one) who's very happy to see Mubarak go. I hope whoever replaces him doesn't repeat his mistakes, though...

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Re: History in Egypt: Prez. Mubarak resigns
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2011, 10:12:33 PM »
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I too have a few Egyptian friends and they are happy as well.
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Re: History in Egypt: Prez. Mubarak resigns
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2011, 12:02:37 AM »
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My brother and I were planning on going to Egypt but held off for some reason. I guess it was a good thing we did.  :)

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Re: History in Egypt: Prez. Mubarak resigns
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2011, 01:06:29 PM »
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And as a Christian and someone who has studied the Bible

Just how much of the bible did you study? There are 44 volumes of the bible written by Christ's disciples that were omitted by the church before the very first publication.

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Not sure what you mean by your use of "volumes," since books in the New Testament are firsthand accounts concerning Jesus and the Apostles, letters to churches, and a giant prophecy book.

There are plenty of Christian-based works written around the same period in the first and second centuries, a number of them mythological, though others also firsthand accounts and the sort. However, the church in I believe the fourth century were very selective when choosing which books of the Old and New Testament are considered canon; they selected only Hebrew texts for the Old, those generally recognized and accepted by the Jewish faith and which are believed to be divinely inspired; and for the New, they selected only works written by apostles who had met and been with Christ, which are believed to be divinely inspired also; Paul had met Jesus on a road which led to his conversion to Christianity, and so had a unique encounter in that way. Many dispute that the books attributed to Paul are not really of his writing, but considering how closely related they are in terms of themes and how they're written out, how close the uncertain authorship books are to the ones we know to be written by him, I see no reason for thinking they're of someone else. Also, there are letters by Paul sent to some churches (most of his letters were for greeting churches and showing them the proper way of Christian living, teaching, admonishing) which are sadly lost, and if any of these were found that would be fantastic; but perhaps the compiling of the Scriptures is as closely guided by the hand of God as those of the faith believe, and such epistles are not necessary.

When you really study the Bible closely, you see that none of its books and writings contradict each other, despite claims to the contrary (usually by people who haven't studied the Bible carefully, or who don't understand many of the cultural and religious contexts, and so come up with their own unsound interpretations which can contradict others). Those who sought to compile the Scriptures knew this, as they carefully studied each book. Despite the Bible as a whole having been written by so many different authors across about a century and a half, there's unity in teachings, things which comply with each other; and we know many of these books to be unaltered from the first two centuries and the last few hundred years in the BC era, thanks to the Dead Sea Scrolls. There are plenty of Christian works from the same period as those books collected in the New Testament, but which (a) are not written by the disciples/apostles who knew Christ, and (b) go into territory not mentioned by the other books of the Bible, whose teachings do not gel with the truth of God, often containing strong mythology; they're more like fairy tales, really.

So, when I say I've studied the Bible, I mean the canonical Holy Bible popular amongst Protestant churches. ;p Or, was once popular; now so many churches have abandoned Scripture almost entirely that I wonder why they even bother coming together. For a Christian, the Bible is the Word of God, perfect in its teachings, though certainly it's no sin to question it unlike what the Muslims teach about their holy writings: God actually encourages questioning, as questioning and reasoning will bring out the truth ever stronger; anything untrue will fall apart under intense speculation.

Anyway... I don't know if that really answers your question or not. Guess you'd have to be a little more clear on what writings you mean and such.
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