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Offline coinilius

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Re: My take on a Pre-IGA timeline
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2016, 06:48:57 PM »
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I always took the tomb in the end of CVII to be Dracula's original burial place - that maybe they interred whatever remained of his remains there, after whatever ending of CVII that you get... the dates on the tombstone refer to the birth and death of Vlad the Impaler.

Offline theplottwist

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Re: My take on a Pre-IGA timeline
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2016, 07:33:25 PM »
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I always took the tomb in the end of CVII to be Dracula's original burial place - that maybe they interred whatever remained of his remains there, after whatever ending of CVII that you get... the dates on the tombstone refer to the birth and death of Vlad the Impaler.

Sure. But then you have Inccubus' timeline saying Dracula died before 1456, which is why I believe he didn't account for the tombstone.

Castlevania III's "1476" year wasn't pulled out of thin air. It aligns both with Vlad the Impaler's real death and Castlevania's intended year for his death (even BEFORE CVIII was made, mind you).

Also, it's possible that Dracula's intended year of birth was also 1431. Remember: Before IGA, Dracula didn't have a backstory spanning centuries. He was understood as being Vlad the Impaler.

I was going to say that maybe he could explain Dracula dying by Christopher's hand as his death in 1476 (thus spawning the legend of Christopher), but not even this one is aligned, missing the mark by 6 years.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 07:39:16 PM by theplottwist »
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Offline AlexCalvo

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Re: My take on a Pre-IGA timeline
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2016, 08:58:13 PM »
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It's also worth noting that Bloodlines was originally marketed as a Gaiden game that was never supposed to fit in with an official timeline. I should work on figuring out how it might fit into my Gaidenverse timeline....  ;D

I've never heard this before... Got a source?

I think the direct connection between Bloodlines and the Dracula novel is easily explained by the fact that Bram Stoker's Dracula was a huge hit less than 2 years before.  I bet Konami was thrilled to be able to basically make a tie in game without any royalties.  How long did it take to make a sega genesis game back then?  I wouldn't be surprised if Bloodlines went into production immediately following Bram Stoker's Dracula's success.  Especially given the fact that we play as the son of Quincy, who in the movie is the badass hero who kills Dracula at the end, where in the novel it is Harker.
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13104670/1/Castlevania-Birth-of-the-Dragon

Dracula was not always a monster. He was once a man named Mathias Cronqvist. A flawed, conflicted, genius of a man. How did the educated, aristocratic, crusader who piously served the church become a vampire, and eventually the Dark Lord himself, the opposing force to God? From a very young age terrors and tragedy shaped the man into the king of all evil. This is his story.

Offline coinilius

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Re: My take on a Pre-IGA timeline
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2016, 10:35:38 PM »
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Sure. But then you have Inccubus' timeline saying Dracula died before 1456, which is why I believe he didn't account for the tombstone.

Castlevania III's "1476" year wasn't pulled out of thin air. It aligns both with Vlad the Impaler's real death and Castlevania's intended year for his death (even BEFORE CVIII was made, mind you).

Also, it's possible that Dracula's intended year of birth was also 1431. Remember: Before IGA, Dracula didn't have a backstory spanning centuries. He was understood as being Vlad the Impaler.

I was going to say that maybe he could explain Dracula dying by Christopher's hand as his death in 1476 (thus spawning the legend of Christopher), but not even this one is aligned, missing the mark by 6 years.

Ah gotcha now - I didn't realize you were linking back to Incubus's original timeline dates - I think I was getting this thread and the multiple-Simon Belmont threads mixed up in my head when I read your post (I was reading that thread recently as well). 

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: My take on a Pre-IGA timeline
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2016, 03:06:38 AM »
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Quincy kills Dracula with a Bowie knife in the novel, but the gypsies kill him while he's doing so. That's why Harker and Mina name their first born after him.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline Nagumo

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Re: My take on a Pre-IGA timeline
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2016, 06:50:43 AM »
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Got a source?

It's this:



"Dracula Gaiden, on sale on the Mega Drive!" and "A new Dracula legend begins!" 

Offline AlexCalvo

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Re: My take on a Pre-IGA timeline
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2016, 11:28:27 AM »
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But doesn't gaiden just mean side story? Does it really necessarily mean that it is not part of the same timeline? I mean the games own intro referenced other games in the series.
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13104670/1/Castlevania-Birth-of-the-Dragon

Dracula was not always a monster. He was once a man named Mathias Cronqvist. A flawed, conflicted, genius of a man. How did the educated, aristocratic, crusader who piously served the church become a vampire, and eventually the Dark Lord himself, the opposing force to God? From a very young age terrors and tragedy shaped the man into the king of all evil. This is his story.

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: My take on a Pre-IGA timeline
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2016, 11:32:27 AM »
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But doesn't gaiden just mean side story? Does it really necessarily mean that it is not part of the same timeline? I mean the games own intro referenced other games in the series.

True, Majora's Mask was originally called Zelda Gaiden if I'm not mistaken. I had some really old EGM article on it back in the day.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline Inccubus

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Re: My take on a Pre-IGA timeline
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2016, 07:37:25 AM »
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It's this:



"Dracula Gaiden, on sale on the Mega Drive!" and "A new Dracula legend begins!"

Plus, is that an advertisement (aka actual marketing) or a magazine review (aka not actual marketing)?
Japanese magazine reviews have been known to exaggerate and even just plain make shit up.

Take this bit about the supposed FF4 for NES that never even officially entered production before the project was moved to SNES:
https://www.unseen64.net/2008/04/14/final-fantasy-4-nes/
"Stuff and things."

Offline Nagumo

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Re: My take on a Pre-IGA timeline
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2016, 12:32:58 PM »
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"Gaiden" contains the kanji for "outside" or "other" (外) and the kanji for conveying something as in a story or a legend (伝). So a more direct translation is "outside story". I've also seen it translated as a "story other than the legend" which sounds clunky but is accurate. A "side story" for example is a story that exists "outside" the bounds of the main story. For example, Fire Emblem gaiden it set in the same as the first Fire Emblem but because it takes place on a different continent it has no relevance to the story of that game. However, because the above mentioned phrasing allows for several possible interpretations, there isn't one specific translation that is always correct. Gaiden can also mean "prequel", "sequel", "prologue" "epilogue", or "spin-off". It can also mean "another story" which is a term directly borrowed from English and has the connotation of being a story that takes place in another world from that of the main story.

Plus, is that an advertisement (aka actual marketing) or a magazine review (aka not actual marketing)?
Japanese magazine reviews have been known to exaggerate and even just plain make shit up.
   

It's an advertisement from the back of a strategy guide appendix that came with bundled with an issue of "Gekkan PC Engine". The publisher of this magazine is the same one that published the actual official guide book, and the strategy guide appendix was intented as a preview for the official guide. Therefore, it's very likely the information it contains came directly from Konami.

Speaking of magazines, there is one I actually wanted to bring up. It's called MegaDriveFAN. It had a scope about the game's reveal, it ran a design contest for the game, and it later also contained an official guide. This magazine definitely had close ties with Konami, and therefore I think it's save to regard the information it contains as reliable.

The following issue is from July 1993, the issue that first unveiled the game and ran the design contest:



In this article, the game is described as "Konami's newest horror-action series". This is why the game is called "Vampire Killer" in Japan and not "Akumajou Dracula". Furthermore, it states that Vampire Killer is a new vampire-themed action game series. It is said specifically that Vampire Killer isn't a Akumajo Dracula sequel, and that it's a new game. So you can't interpret "gaiden" to mean spin-off or sequel in this case. 

It also says that Vampire Killer and the Akumajou Dracula series share the same "Dracula theme". So what I think what it meant with "Dracula gaiden" in that scan I posted before is that Vampire Killer is also a "legend" about Dracula but it's different from the legend that is featured in Konami's other series: Akumajo Dracula. To use the same words as in the advertisement, with Vampire Killer "a new Dracula legend begins".

I think this "new Dracula Legend" was supposed to be different save for a few shared elements like Dracula and the main character being a whip-wielder. I think this also explains why the developers all of a sudden tied the game's plot to the events of Bram Stoker's Dracula and why they replaced the Belmonts with the Morris family. Would this have been a normal Akumajou Dracula project, I doubt such liberties would have taken since it would have limited what developers could have done with the story later. As we could have observed a few years ago, IGA was struggling enough as it is with trying to properly connect the game with the rest of the series.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 12:46:07 PM by Nagumo »

Offline AlexCalvo

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Re: My take on a Pre-IGA timeline
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2016, 02:23:49 PM »
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But the level of disconnect with the series that you are describing is obviously not the case of the final game. This is evident to anyone who has played it, the games' intro alone makes that clear. This makes that whole article suspect, or at least very far from where things ended up.  The final product is clearly in the same world as the previous games.



I think this idea that before Iga the games weren't really that connected is kind of a farce.  A big part of Castlevania's appeal was the continuing storyline well before Iga came around, and it had very few inconsistencies for a game series of the time.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 03:13:17 PM by AlexCalvo »
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13104670/1/Castlevania-Birth-of-the-Dragon

Dracula was not always a monster. He was once a man named Mathias Cronqvist. A flawed, conflicted, genius of a man. How did the educated, aristocratic, crusader who piously served the church become a vampire, and eventually the Dark Lord himself, the opposing force to God? From a very young age terrors and tragedy shaped the man into the king of all evil. This is his story.

Offline Nagumo

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Re: My take on a Pre-IGA timeline
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2016, 01:40:50 AM »
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There's another advertisemrnt for the game, and although this image is a bit small, the transcipt (which can be found here) once again refers to the game as "original, horror-action". Konami was clearly pushing it as the beginning of a new series at the time.   




I actually don't think the pre-IGA games weren't connencted. In fact, I think they were more connencted than people give them credit for. Some people think Akumajou Densetsu and Dracula Dracula Densetsu are two conflicting accounts of what happend before Simon's era, which I don't believe to be true. What I am saying however, is that Vampire Killer was the game that wasn't connencted with the others. About the intro, you are refering to the fact that the Belmont family is mentioned, right? Why can't it just be a nod to the Castlevania series? Although Vampire Killer and Castlevania were meant to be different series at the time, obviously the two are closely connencted. They already borrowed Dracula and the idea that the main protagonist uses a whip, so I don't think it's unreasonable they could have reused the Belmonts as well.     
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 01:42:29 AM by Nagumo »

Offline AlexCalvo

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Re: My take on a Pre-IGA timeline
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2016, 06:56:50 AM »
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I think maybe they were originally intending it to be a different series, maybe.  But the final product is without question a Castlevania game, as tied into the series as any other.  The intro does more than just mention the Belmonts... it gives a clear history about them and their "curse" to fight Dracula. It features a clear shot of a Belmont staring down Dracula's castle in the intro video, as well as pushed John's connection to the Belmont in the games manual in both the character descriptions, and the games introduction, in english and japanese. The Belmonts are 100% a Castlevania construct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=568lZdrcrR8

To say they just "borrowed" the Belmonts just seems to me like trying to make your theory work, in the face of evidence that proves it wrong...  It's an interesting idea, but it's just not correct.  Anyone looking at the actual game itself can see it is clearly rooted, deeply, in the Castlevania series, regardless of what some obscure promotional material might have said.  Game itself > random magazines.

And all this goes without even mentioning the obvious gameplay/technical/thematic connections.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 07:07:07 AM by AlexCalvo »
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13104670/1/Castlevania-Birth-of-the-Dragon

Dracula was not always a monster. He was once a man named Mathias Cronqvist. A flawed, conflicted, genius of a man. How did the educated, aristocratic, crusader who piously served the church become a vampire, and eventually the Dark Lord himself, the opposing force to God? From a very young age terrors and tragedy shaped the man into the king of all evil. This is his story.

Offline Nagumo

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Re: My take on a Pre-IGA timeline
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2016, 10:52:29 AM »
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Yes, you're right. It's indeed a weak point in my theory. However, I also think the evidence I provided about the game being refered to as both a gaiden and a new series should not be discarded entirely. I found a Japanese blog which supposedly explains the whole situation. I have no idea how plausible it is, but interestingly enough, I think this theory incorporates both our viewpoints.

http://ameblo.jp/akachangamer/entry-10692890862.html

I'll paraphrase what is being said. The author says that by the year 1993-94 the Castlevania series was in a little bit of trouble (I think this is also consistent with something IGA said). There was no consistent policy on how sequels were produced and the series ended up with several games sharing the same title "Akumajou Dracula" but were different games entirely. As a result the Akumajou Dracula brand ended up being diluted. Konami then planned three project to revive the series: the X68000 version of Akumajou Dracula, Akumajou Dracula X: Chi no Rondo, and Vampire Killer. The purpose of the X68000 game was to remake the first game in the series. Rondo of Blood was meant to be a sequel set in a new era. And lastly, Vampire Killer was meant to experiment and take the series in a new direction. But then the game was regarded as being too radically different, and the game ended being rebranded as an entirely new series for the sake of brand protection. But of course, IGA later ended up incorporating the game back into the series.     

So what may have happend is that Vampire Killer was indeed developed with the intention of fitting in with the rest of the Castlevania series, hence all the references to the Belmonts. But then Konami stepped in and made it an entirely different series and it became to be regarded as a gaiden for a couple of years. Then IGA created the official timeline and we all know what happend from that point on.     

Offline AlexCalvo

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Re: My take on a Pre-IGA timeline
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2016, 11:34:15 AM »
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So are you just arguing that the Japanese branch of konami considered it a different series, with the same mythology for a lite while, and then just changed their minds later?  Because in game it is clearly in the castlevania universe already established, on the U.S. and Europe it has castlevania in the title, and nothing in the game contradicts any established canon?  I don't think this theory makes any sense. Sorry.
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13104670/1/Castlevania-Birth-of-the-Dragon

Dracula was not always a monster. He was once a man named Mathias Cronqvist. A flawed, conflicted, genius of a man. How did the educated, aristocratic, crusader who piously served the church become a vampire, and eventually the Dark Lord himself, the opposing force to God? From a very young age terrors and tragedy shaped the man into the king of all evil. This is his story.

Tags: IGA Timeline theory