Topic: Alucard Spear complement weapon

[Guy Belmont]

Hi just wanted I ask if anyone kew, as I'm doing some research for my fan project , and I wanted to know if this had ever been said how it was  a complement weapon .
 cos I always had the idea that it would rise the whip's power, and keep the whip in holy mode longer as acting like a vent, thus taking  the excess energy  and drawing it all in to the spear. cooling the whip down so to speak, and then the spear can be use all this power in one huge blast. and also use cool tag moves

But I really wanted to ask if there was a canon explanation, or was it never talked about again.

It be a HUGE help if anyone knows anything about this, Thank you. 

[X]

I've never heard of such a theory before about the Alucard spear. As far as I know at least the Alucard spear was developed as an alternative to the vampirekiller as only the Belmont clan can use the whip.

[Dracula9]

Hang on, lemme shine the Plot Twist signal.

[theplottwist]

OK to explain the complimentary weapon thing:

This was said by Alucard himself on Castlevania: Judgment. The spear is not meant to replace the whip, but to compliment it. On Eric's story mode intro, it's mentioned that the spear was designed to support the Morris on their struggle. This game is also where we learn that Alucard didn't pass the spear to Eric, but to someone previous to him.

Now, HOW EXACTLY it "compliments the whip" is somewhat of a mystery, given that the quotes on this are vague. Yet, not once anywhere is a hint given about some magical relationship between the two weapons. So, we can try to make sense of this by taking into account that the whip drains the life of those who wield its power.

We could realistically extrapolate this into the idea that the spear was made to compliment the lacking power that has been locked inside the whip. You can only "compliment something" that is "lacking something," right? While a Lecarde battles the creatures of evil using the spear, there is no need to unlock the Vampire Killer, therefore sparing unnecessary loss of life force on the Morris' part.

By itself and while locked, as seen on Portrait of Ruin, the whip is but an ordinary weapon. It can be used to do battle, but it isn't very useful. When compared to the spear in this state, the spear VASTLY outperforms the whip. But, once Dracula is revived, then there is no other choice but to unlock the Vampire Killer, which has more than enough power to deal with Dracula by itself.

So, what *I* understand by "complimenting the whip" is not a literal "it makes it's power greater through ~magical~ means" but instead more like "it fills in where the whip can't", thus making the unlocking of the whip a final resort choice. While the whip stays locked as an ordinary weapon, the spear steps in to deal with threats it can't unless it's too big of a threat even for the spear (Dracula).

And I think this makes even more sense when you consider that the Lecardes are the ones to hold the key to unlocking the whip, in the first place. They're the ones who must gauge the threat's level. They're meant to fight using the spear until it becomes impossible for them to overcome the threat, and the whip is an absolute necessity.

TL;DR: if the whip can deal with the greatest threat by itself, why is the spear needed at all? It's needed to fill in (e.g.: compliment) when the whip is locked, since it consumes the life of the wielder when it's unlocked.

Hang on, lemme shine the Plot Twist signal.

I'll marry this signal!

[The Puritan]

Given the above, I wonder if the Alucard Spear is a product of Cronqvist alchemy, much like the Whip of Alchemy before it became the Vampire Killer. The only diff is that it doesn't have a cursed soul (Sara's) bound to it.

This could explain how it can hold its own against the creatures of the night without completely replacing the Vampire Killer.

[X]

Wouldn't the Undead Killer whip in PoR be on a similar level as the Alucard spear?

[Guy Belmont]

Thank you all for your looking in to this.
but as I thought there was no in cannon  reason given.

OK to explain the complimentary weapon thing:

This was said by Alucard himself on Castlevania: Judgment. The spear is not meant to replace the whip, but to compliment it. On Eric's story mode intro, it's mentioned that the spear was designed to support the Morris on their struggle. This game is also where we learn that Alucard didn't pass the spear to Eric, but to someone previous to him.

Now, HOW EXACTLY it "compliments the whip" is somewhat of a mystery, given that the quotes on this are vague. Yet, not once anywhere is a hint given about some magical relationship between the two weapons. So, we can try to make sense of this by taking into account that the whip drains the life of those who wield its power.

We could realistically extrapolate this into the idea that the spear was made to compliment the lacking power that has been locked inside the whip. You can only "compliment something" that is "lacking something," right? While a Lecarde battles the creatures of evil using the spear, there is no need to unlock the Vampire Killer, therefore sparing unnecessary loss of life force on the Morris' part.

By itself and while locked, as seen on Portrait of Ruin, the whip is but an ordinary weapon. It can be used to do battle, but it isn't very useful. When compared to the spear in this state, the spear VASTLY outperforms the whip. But, once Dracula is revived, then there is no other choice but to unlock the Vampire Killer, which has more than enough power to deal with Dracula by itself.

So, what *I* understand by "complimenting the whip" is not a literal "it makes it's power greater through ~magical~ means" but instead more like "it fills in where the whip can't", thus making the unlocking of the whip a final resort choice. While the whip stays locked as an ordinary weapon, the spear steps in to deal with threats it can't unless it's too big of a threat even for the spear (Dracula).

And I think this makes even more sense when you consider that the Lecardes are the ones to hold the key to unlocking the whip, in the first place. They're the ones who must gauge the threat's level. They're meant to fight using the spear until it becomes impossible for them to overcome the threat, and the whip is an absolute necessity.

TL;DR: if the whip can deal with the greatest threat by itself, why is the spear needed at all? It's needed to fill in (e.g.: compliment) when the whip is locked, since it consumes the life of the wielder when it's unlocked.

I'll marry this signal!

This was very well thought out,
But if I can point something out. As I was doing research  about this back in 2011, I seem to remember reading that
the Alucard Spear being a "complement weapon"  first came up in "Vampire killer". and as there was nothing about the Vampire killer's power being locked away. Nor the fact that only a true descendant of the Belmont clan could use it safely. So to be honest, giving it a magical relationship would make more sense due to the nature of these Weapons.

And as this was the first game to give the whip a name "Vampire Killer the Sorcery Whip" hinting that magic was involve in its making.
So the weapons seem to be very magical. so I would not be surprised if it did have some sort of magic affect on the whip, also as it seems longer then the whip, but not by much.
But that could also be part of it being a complement weapon, take out things that the vampire killer misses, or can't reach.

but having it feed the vampire killer power as the wielder uses it can charge it up, give the whip user two modes of attack,
1 using the power it gets from the spear using it to shoot projectiles , and then charge that up to shoot a huge blast.
2 Using the power to help keep it in holy mode longer.

So yeah Plot twister like I said Your idea was good, But it was very Iga's canon, and as he didn't work on Vampire Killer, and his timeline was not the main one at that point. the developer's seem to have a different idea of how both weapons work.
as the vampire  killer seems to be no weaker,
and as far as I know there was no unlocking ritual until POR.

So it seems that the spear was meant to be a complement weapon to a fully powered vampire killer.
And as my Project doesn't really follow IGA's canon I was hoping there'd be something on this, before IGA took over.
But sadly no.

But on a side note in Eric's ending
 he seems to have retuned the Spear in to the ground, and there seems to be some sort of energy field around it.
now that could be were it stays  when its not being used. OR it could be that they only borrow the spear and that the spear could have gone to anyone.
But like I said, it seems there is no real answer
shame really.

[theplottwist]

So yeah Plot twister like I said Your idea was good, But it was very Iga's canon,

You said you wanted canon data, not what canon data was relevant and what is not. Igarashi's canon IS the main canon. If you consider simply the Bloodlines manual, then you can do pretty much whatever the hell you want, since it says absolutelly nothing on any account concerning the relationship between both weapons.

And as this was the first game to give the whip a name "Vampire Killer the Sorcery Whip" hinting that magic was involve in its making.

If we apply the same logic you used to dismiss the locked whip or the life draining effect, then we'll have to dismiss this one because the original original story of the whip never says its a "Sorcery whip," only ever saying that it's holy/blessed.

If you can pick and choose when the canon stops being relevant, then why not do whatever you want in the first place? Your imagination will be free to create without restraints and possibly bring something novel to the table!

I seem to remember reading that
the Alucard Spear being a "complement weapon"  first came up in "Vampire killer"

It doesn't.  Not in the game, neither in the manual -- not even in the japanese one. So, again, if we apply the logic of "this is canon, this isn't", IGA is the one who came up with the "complimentary weapon" idea. Either you'll have to discard it "because IGA" or you'll have to reinvent the wheel.

Here is the transcripted japanese manual in case you doubt me: http://castlevania.jp/a_main/14/index.html

now that could be were it stays  when its not being used. OR it could be that they only borrow the spear and that the spear could have gone to anyone.
But like I said, it seems there is no real answer
shame really.

There is a real answer: The spear went to Jonathan Morris, and I believe this was done because the people supposed to inherit it became vampires. But again, if you call anything IGA "not canon" then there's not much to work with.

[theplottwist]

Wouldn't the Undead Killer whip in PoR be on a similar level as the Alucard spear?

Status-wise? Nope. Alucard Spear has +140 ATK, while the Undead Killer has +70 ATK. The spear is even stronger than the unlocked Vampire Killer -- which only surpasses the spear in damage output because it has the holy attribute, which most enemies are weak against and that the spear doesn't have.

[X]

I liked the undead killer for the fact that the blood skeletons will die upon being struck by it. It's also a good way to quickly level-up if start a new playthrough with brought-over weapons.

[Guy Belmont]

You said you wanted canon data, not what canon data was relevant and what is not. Igarashi's canon IS the main canon. If you consider simply the Bloodlines manual, then you can do pretty much whatever the hell you want, since it says absolutelly nothing on any account concerning the relationship between both weapons.

If we apply the same logic you used to dismiss the locked whip or the life draining effect, then we'll have to dismiss this one because the original original story of the whip never says its a "Sorcery whip," only ever saying that it's holy/blessed.

But again you've missed the point, it has also been called the "magic whip" in the "original" canon so yes there is magic involved. 

And  the original canon( before Iga really took over) seems to say that really anyone could use the whip. as long as they had some link to the Belmont's and as both words "Sorcery & magic are the same thing  they seem to be carrying the older canon on. they just added "vampire killer" on.

but the whip has had many, many names, in the First Canon. And as  the flame whip was done by magic, its not  so hard to link magic being used to make the whip. and magic has been part of the whips history.

And as for the unlocking part, well that was really added on with no real pre existing evidence. and as there was a canon before IGA's the magic thing makes more sense.

that's the funny thing about some CV fans they seem to think that there was no story before IGA, but that's just not true. so no lets not dismiss it.
 

It doesn't.  Not in the game, neither in the manual -- not even in the japanese one. So, again, if we apply the logic of "this is canon, this isn't", IGA is the one who came up with the "complimentary weapon" idea. Either you'll have to discard it "because IGA" or you'll have to reinvent the wheel.

Here is the transcripted japanese manual in case you doubt me: http://castlevania.jp/a_main/14/index.html

Oh could you tell me when he did come up with it ? what year what game.

There is a real answer: The spear went to Jonathan Morris, and I believe this was done because the people supposed to inherit it became vampires. But again, if you call anything IGA "not canon" then there's not much to work with.

Well I must say that this was on my end i should have made it more clear 
But  after seeing yet again your aversion to using magic, like you wanted the VK to just be a whip, no chain, no magical  transformation, no combat cross, just a leather whip.
And I fine that odd as just think of the power if you combined  the most powerful parts of the combat cross. and the VK.
The power of the magically blessed vampire killer whip, gods own power on earth crushing all darkness. And the body of the combat cross, the cross being the bane of all unholy.

and add iron to  as it will make it even more powerful.. I guess you have a more Sami rami approach to story telling,
as opposed to my Stephen king style storytelling.

[and trust me on the iron part, as I am an expert on the occult/supernatural, as my family
has had a VERY long history with supernatural. And we come from a really,really old family, we even have our own coat of arms , we are the closest thing this real world has to the Belmont's ]

But no the real answer is... that we all will never know what happen to it, or what it was even doing there in the ground.  IGA   tried to tacked his story on to it, like he did with most of CV, just took others work and got rid of it or "modified" it. No the real answer is  what were the plans of the person who came up with spear,  what was going to happen to it, who would use it next.  but sadly we will never know.

Status-wise? Nope. Alucard Spear has +140 ATK, while the Undead Killer has +70 ATK. The spear is even stronger than the unlocked Vampire Killer -- which only surpasses the spear in damage output because it has the holy attribute, which most enemies are weak against and that the spear doesn't have.

And that tells me that its one of those odd game ideas, that have nothing to do with the canon. Sort of like how no one is ever bitten by zombies in res, and even if the play gets hit, it just never happen in canon.

But no weapon is more powerful then the vampire killer, not in power or magic. I mean IGA has dropped some clangers  in his time on CV.  But not even he would devalue The vampire Killer.

So take it from me X, if the Vampire Killer whip and the Holy whip are gone, go for the undead killer. not just as a CV fan, but as a  expert on supernatural.

[theplottwist]

that's the funny thing about some CV fans they seem to think that there was no story before IGA, but that's just not true. so no lets not dismiss it.

Oh boy...

Oh could you tell me when he did come up with it ? what year what game.

Castlevania Judgment. Though I'm fairly sure he already had this in mind by Portrait of Ruin.

But  after seeing yet again your aversion to using magic, like you wanted the VK to just be a whip, no chain, no magical  transformation, no combat cross, just a leather whip.

Oh boy²...

For one: I don't "want" the VK to be just a whip. I told you that when its power is locked, it behaves like a featureless whip. You do realize I'm not Koji Igarashi, right?

For two: I have no "aversion" to using magic. That is called Occam's Razor -- the games' stories never mention a magical relationship between both weapons, and instead give plenty of evidence for a more simple concept. So I assume the simple concept first. IGA came up with the locked whip + IGA came up with the "compliment weapon" idea = One weapon compliments the other because the other's power has been locked.

Don't forget it was you who came here asking for canonical info and then began moving the goalpost when the answer you got was not the one you wanted.

[and trust me on the iron part, as I am an expert on the occult/supernatural, as my family
has had a VERY long history with supernatural. And we come from a really,really old family, we even have our own coat of arms , we are the closest thing this real world has to the Belmont's ]

Oh boy³...

What does your real-life ghostbusting have to do with a video game's fictional story where you can throw crosses like boomerangs, jesus christ. Owning a real-life Mystery Machine doesn't make you a Castlevania Phd, man...

But no the real answer is... that we all will never know what happen to it, or what it was even doing there in the ground.  IGA   tried to tacked his story on to it, like he did with most of CV, just took others work and got rid of it or "modified" it. No the real answer is  what were the plans of the person who came up with spear,  what was going to happen to it, who would use it next.  but sadly we will never know.

I was going to mention the fact that IGA went after the people involved with the games previous to him to the maximum of his capacity as to not dessecrate their legacy, to the point of knowing who the Castlevania creator is and not revealing it out of respect, but that would fall in deaf ears, i'm sure.

IGA has respected the classic stories much more than people give him credit for (did you know it wasn't IGA's idea for Dracula to NOT be Vlad III? Or that certain games are not canon because their original creators didn't want them to be? Yeah, just one of those tiny nuggets showing how far he went to respect the old dudes' ideas). But eh.

And that tells me that its one of those odd game ideas, that have nothing to do with the canon. Sort of like how no one is ever bitten by zombies in res, and even if the play gets hit, it just never happen in canon.

Gameplay and Story Segregation. Look it up.

So take it from me X, if the Vampire Killer whip and the Holy whip are gone, go for the undead killer. not just as a CV fan, but as a  expert on supernatural.

Yeah X, listen to Dean Winchester here. He obviously knows where to find a real-life Undead Killer to deal with that pesky Red Skeleton infestation you have there on your attic.

I'm being snarky, but please understand that I'm not trying to antagonize you out of spite or anything like this. You came here, asked one thing and I provided the answer. THEN you start trying to refute what I said with "this isn't canon because IGA is so and so."

Hell, how would I know you don't like the answers IGA created/provided? When you say "give me canon answers" this is what you will receive. I concede the mention of "Magic Whip" on the old manuals, but I still want to know what will you do with the "complimentary weapon" stuff, since this is an IGA-era idea. Your entire idea hinges on this.

[Dracula9]

But again you've missed the point, it has also been called the "magic whip" in the "original" canon so yes there is magic involved. 

And  the original canon( before Iga really took over) seems to say that really anyone could use the whip. as long as they had some link to the Belmont's and as both words "Sorcery & magic are the same thing  they seem to be carrying the older canon on. they just added "vampire killer" on.

but the whip has had many, many names, in the First Canon. And as  the flame whip was done by magic, its not  so hard to link magic being used to make the whip. and magic has been part of the whips history.

And as for the unlocking part, well that was really added on with no real pre existing evidence. and as there was a canon before IGA's the magic thing makes more sense.

that's the funny thing about some CV fans they seem to think that there was no story before IGA, but that's just not true. so no lets not dismiss it.
  Oh could you tell me when he did come up with it ? what year what game.
Well I must say that this was on my end i should have made it more clear 
But  after seeing yet again your aversion to using magic, like you wanted the VK to just be a whip, no chain, no magical  transformation, no combat cross, just a leather whip.
And I fine that odd as just think of the power if you combined  the most powerful parts of the combat cross. and the VK.
The power of the magically blessed vampire killer whip, gods own power on earth crushing all darkness. And the body of the combat cross, the cross being the bane of all unholy.

and add iron to  as it will make it even more powerful.. I guess you have a more Sami rami approach to story telling,
as opposed to my Stephen king style storytelling.

[and trust me on the iron part, as I am an expert on the occult/supernatural, as my family
has had a VERY long history with supernatural. And we come from a really,really old family, we even have our own coat of arms , we are the closest thing this real world has to the Belmont's ]

But no the real answer is... that we all will never know what happen to it, or what it was even doing there in the ground.  IGA   tried to tacked his story on to it, like he did with most of CV, just took others work and got rid of it or "modified" it. No the real answer is  what were the plans of the person who came up with spear,  what was going to happen to it, who would use it next.  but sadly we will never know.

And that tells me that its one of those odd game ideas, that have nothing to do with the canon. Sort of like how no one is ever bitten by zombies in res, and even if the play gets hit, it just never happen in canon.

But no weapon is more powerful then the vampire killer, not in power or magic. I mean IGA has dropped some clangers  in his time on CV.  But not even he would devalue The vampire Killer.

So take it from me X, if the Vampire Killer whip and the Holy whip are gone, go for the undead killer. not just as a CV fan, but as a  expert on supernatural.

What happened "before IGA took over" doesn't matter. IGA took over, and added to the canon. What he added is the canon. It doesn't matter "when" it happened--it happened, and now it's law. Period. Your personal preferences don't play into it. The "original" games might've made such mentions, but thanks to IGA we have a backstory on it now. That backstory is the canon, and once again the canon is the law.

It's not "CV fans ignoring pre-IGA plotlines." It's "CV fans who understand that anything IGA added during his tenure with the series became the canon and don't pretend the stuff that came before him is somehow 'more' canon." That assumption is callous at best.

Your family history, also, doesn't matter here. Why? Because for one, anyone can Google the basics of demonology and find out the importance of iron as an element of defense against mythological and supernatural forces throughout history. I don't have a family history of "monster hunting" to the best of my knowledge (mostly Viking royalty wrecking shit in England), but I can quote a million and one aspects of demonology and how to protect against old-world forces of the supernatural. I could talk about salt-circles, throwing a piece of iron or steel into a lake inhabited by a kelpie or nereid to ward them off, bowing and offering a cucumber to stave off a kappa, or whatever the hell else comes to mind. Would it have any bearing on the CV canon? Of course not--why? Because it's bloody irrelevant, doubly so when we have a canon explanation and context already in place.

Plot's accused you of moving the goalposts. Considering he's long since provided canon connections and implications that reasonably answer your question, and you've continued to harp on moot points like "you're deliberately ignoring pre-IGA canon because I say so" and bringing in your irrelevant family history as if anyone being impressed by it will contribute to your point(s) (hint: it won't and it doesn't). From all appearances, moving the goalposts is exactly what you've done.

Seriously, bro. You got your answer already and then some. Why is this additional refusal of said answer valuable? Just because you don't like the answer doesn't make the answer less true, and assuming things like someone like PLOT ignoring parts of the canon (you must be high to seriously imply this, dude's like the antithesis of that for fuck's sake) doesn't do anything to your cause than irritate the other side. I can't fathom continuing to harp and argue a point that's been answered and solved already--why even bother when you have your answer already?

[SecretWeapon]

Ignore the mutt, he'll go away on its own if you dont reply to him

[Nagumo]

But no the real answer is... that we all will never know what happen to it, or what it was even doing there in the ground.  IGA   tried to tacked his story on to it, like he did with most of CV, just took others work and got rid of it or "modified" it. No the real answer is  what were the plans of the person who came up with spear,  what was going to happen to it, who would use it next.  but sadly we will never know.

I think this is an interesting question to ponder. Of course, as has been pointed out, we have a legitimate answer already, but it's still interesting to know what the original intentions were supposed to be. Bloodlines is full with truly puzzling additions to the series' lore which makes you scratch your head and ask yourself: "Why did they do this?". The existence of the Alucard Spear is definitely one of them.

The Japanese manual of Bloodlines is absolutely no help in this case, as the only thing it does is cheerfully state Eric wields the Alucard Spear and provides no further context whatsoever. Checking the sections of the Japanese manual of Akumajou Densetsu, as well as its ending, also doesn't provide us with any answers. Comparing Alucard and Eric isn't particularly revealing either: 1) Alucard is a vampire/dhampir, as opposed to Eric who is human 2) Alucard is from Romania while Eric is from Spain 3) Alucard's weapon are magical fire balls he shoots out of his cape, Eric's is a spear.  Unless I missed something, I can only conclude that there never was any explicit story connection between the two. To go even further, I think there's no logical reason for why these characters were originally connencted. It would be like if they named John's weapon the "Sypha Whip" or something like that.

This of course doesn't change the reality of the situation: the name of Eric's weapon IS the Alucard Spear, end of story. But once again I must ask: "Why?" The only thing I can think of is that the connenction must originally have been incidental. As crazy as it may sound, the only connenction which seems likely to me, even back in 1994, was that the names of both characters sounded similar in Japanese: "Arukādo" and "Erikku Rikādo". Perhaps they added a Alucard reference in the game as sort of an in-joke? If there was anything more to this, surely the developers would have clarified the situation? IGA sort of alludes to this as well. He said that before he became producer: "[the games in the Castlevania series] seemed like they connencted, but they never really did". Could the Alucard/Eric situation have been an example of whatever it was he was refering to?     

Perhaps the answer to this can be found in an interview with the director of Bloodlines that is listed on Shmuplations:

http://shmuplations.com/patreonlist/