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Offline Lumi Kløvstad

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Re: Is Transylvania/Wallachia in the CV universe more isolated than in reality?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2018, 09:02:46 AM »
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dracula a big dood

too big to exist

I'm putting this forward as an early candidate for Best Comment of 2018.
How not to be a dark lord: the answer to that is a terribly interesting answer that involves an almost Jedi-like adherence to keeping oneself under control and finding ways to be true to yourself in a way that doesn't encourage the worst parts of you to become dangerously exaggerated and instead feeds your better nature. Also, protip: don't fuck with Alchemy or strike up any deals with ancient Japanese Shinigami gods no matter how tempting the deal or how suavely dressed the Shinigami is.

Offline Dracula9

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Re: Is Transylvania/Wallachia in the CV universe more isolated than in reality?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2018, 09:03:41 AM »
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vampire hunter d also confirms it as best statement


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Offline Nagumo

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Re: Is Transylvania/Wallachia in the CV universe more isolated than in reality?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2018, 02:23:51 PM »
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But that is how it happens on the CV world, isn't it? Soma doesn't believe supernatural stuff until he has a hands on experience with it, DESPITE the world teeming with this around him. He believes it only when he has NO CHOICE but to believe it.

Of course it doesn't run counter to history. I don't know where in the world you live, but where I live, the supernatural is common sense; Most people believe in stuff such as "miracles" and "prophets". Churches amass thousands of followers. The deeper you go inside a given state, the more ludicrous stories about supernatural sightings become. It's EXTREMELLY rare to find someone who doesn't believe to have seen or interacted with some sort of supernatural phenomena.

The emergence of humanism did jack squat to these people.

You misunderstand what I'm saying. You're arguing that it's not hard to proof the existence of the supernatural in the CV universe and that a large reason for this is because people don't want to open their eyes to the truth. This doesn't make sense when you consider how humans view the supernatural drastically changed over the past couple of centuries. If it really was that easy to proof the supernatural is real in the CV universe then it doesn't make sense from a historic perspective that a human society which was absolutely convinced that magic and monsters were real in the 1400s would develop into a society in which the existence supernatural was disputed by the majority of the scientific community in the 2000s.

There's a modern consensus (at least in the scientific community) that the supernatural doesn't exist, and that consensus is a result of spending literally centuries looking for it and not finding it. There's the question of how that consensus came to exist in the first place, in a world that does in fact contain supernatural things. My problem with your argument is this: you're starting from a position of "some people just don't believe in the supernatural, and wouldn't believe it even if the evidence stares them in the face", which only works in a world where magic doesn't actually exist.

People really want to believe in the supernatural and they don't stop until a total lack of evidence makes them, and then only grudgingly. If there is actual evidence  then there would be no reason for unbelievers like Soma to be a thing. Yet, somehow this isn't the case. Meaning there must be a very damn good reason why the existence of the supernatural is disputed in CV's version of the modern era. And you can't explain this soley with the deniability argument or coverups.

Don't get me wrong, the idea isn't without merit but it only works if a masquerade is already in effect because of other factors, and even then I think should be applied within reason. 

lol do you even Christianity? :P

When I say "denial" I don't always mean "the individual completelly refuses X exists". I also mean "the individual interprets that as another thing that better fits what they already believe". So, in a Christian's case: He can see Sleipnir and accept it exists.... But not as Odin's horse, but as an illusion of Satan or a demon from Hell. So, instead of starting to believe that Odin (or at least his horse) is real, this hypothetical Christian will return to his church, share what he saw with his brothers and sisters, and that will become the story of "Joe who saw a demon horse with eight legs" and not of "Joe who saw Sleipnir and found evidence Odin is maybe real".

Risking the biggest fedora-tipping this forum has ever saw: The biggest religions' bread and butter is saying that "that other god/spirit over there" is not real. No matter what you see, it's a lie made up by [respective religion final boss] to make you stray from god's teachings -- the only reality is what their respective holy scripture says. The Bible itself classifies many other gods as demons, for instance.

And in the CV universe that does not seem to be that much different, either... I doubt Juste Belmont ceased to be a Christian after verifying for a fact that Asura and Garuda are real, or Richter ceased to be Christian after verifying for a fact that four chinese animal gods can make you indestructible. How do they both rationalize these phenomena when their belief system says that those shouldn't exist? Hell, in the CV world there is an entire INSTITUTION founded on precepts saying that much of what they see shouldn't even exist.

I actually agree with everything you're saying here. I thought you were arguing people of different religions wouldn't believe in creatures from other mythologies even if they came in direct contact with them, but misinterpreted your post. Moving on.

These people are called, on our world, conspiracy theorists. Some conspiracies have thousands of followers -- does nothing to change the status quo. It's obvious that there are many who know the supernatural is real in the CV world -- this would still not be enough to convince others. You might argue that, different from our world, in the CV world you can actually gather evidence, but I raise you this: The theorists of OUR world also have "evidence". What do we do at this evidence? We ignore it.

I think it isn't so much "ignoring" evidence put forth by conspiracy theorists and more like disputing it. Generally, the reason this evidence isn't taken seriously is because there are serious doubts if scientific methods were properly applied when the evidence was gathered. Let's take photo's for example. At this point it has become sort of an cliche that a photo with a supernatural being on it are blurry or badly exposed. But how hard would it really be to take a good, unambiguous photo of a supernatural being in the CV universe?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 02:29:40 PM by Nagumo »

Offline Dracula9

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Re: Is Transylvania/Wallachia in the CV universe more isolated than in reality?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2018, 02:55:15 PM »
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no, most conspiracy nuts can't actually prove any single conspiracy they have without having to cite another, different conspiracy to explain the discrepancies of the first, and then cite another different conspiracy to justify the second one, and so on and so forth forever


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Offline theplottwist

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Re: Is Transylvania/Wallachia in the CV universe more isolated than in reality?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2018, 08:15:52 PM »
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Quote
You're arguing that it's not hard to proof the existence of the supernatural in the CV universe and that a large reason for this is because people don't want to open their eyes to the truth.

OK no, that's not what I said. I might have misrepresented myself somewhere. If so, apologies -- may this answer stand as the "canon" version of my thought process:

I DON'T think it's so easy to prove the supernatural in the CV universe, for many reasons: Enemies burst into flames leaving nothing behind, the Church has a stranglehold on information, it has agents to go and do "cleaning up", merely witnessing these monsters and escaping alive to tell the tale is in itself a feat not easily accomplished (unless you're goddamn Hammer apparently). And that's not getting to Dracula and how that much harder would be to prove HIM as real. And ALL of that ON TOP of people's own biases, which are by themselves incredibly powerful things.

Now, it's still possible. Just not that easy that flipping a rock proves the existence of a fairy. We NEED to understand that OUR perspective of the CV universe just happens to always be positioned where the supernatural action is taking place (which, in most of the games, is somewhere pretty isolated). But it being possible, then there are cults amassing hundreds of thousands of followers, just as Graham's modern 21th century cult.

Also let me say this: Celia summoned monsters in the middle of the street. Once. All of them burning into nothingness, in a battle lasting incredible 2 minutes. This is not something that happens everyday constantly. This is enough to AT MOST become a town rumor/urban legend to attract tourists.

Quote
My problem with your argument is this: you're starting from a position of "some people just don't believe in the supernatural, and wouldn't believe it even if the evidence stares them in the face", which only works in a world where magic doesn't actually exist.

People really want to believe in the supernatural and they don't stop until a total lack of evidence makes them, and then only grudgingly. If there is actual evidence then there would be no reason for unbelievers like Soma to be a thing. Yet, somehow this isn't the case. Meaning there must be a very damn good reason why the existence of the supernatural is disputed in CV's version of the modern era. And you can't explain this soley with the deniability argument or coverups.

Alright so, let's use one case closer to Soma (modern dude who lives in a world where evidence of a controversial subject is attainable, said subject is real, yet denied by a very expressive number of people): President Donald Trump.

The scientific consensus on Climate Change is clear. And information is available to anyone with an internet connection. Despite that, Donald Trump, the leader of the modern world, doesn't believe it. And he damn well has access to shit we don't about this subject.

Donald Trump shouldn't be possible according to the laws of reality, then! Yet he is. He and MILLIONS more. And there is no "coverup", no "Church", no "Alucards", nothing trying to hide it. Please do tell me what better reason Donald Trump has than "denial" and "ignorance". Money? Manipulation? OK let's assume it, but what, then, are the reasons for his supporters (or even people who don't even support him, but believe the same)?

Then, after you explain how Donald Trump (and millions more, some of those being actually much smarter than him) can deny Climate Change, explain why Soma is unable to deny the supernatural with basis on the same terms, but on a world where there IS an actual effort to hide the information from him, and where evidence of it is hard to obtain by oneself.

I see your point, but I think you're overcomplicating a really simple issue: Humanity can be really dumb when it wants to. And by "really" I mean "really goddamn really". On the CV universe not only the supernatural is real, but certain groups of people do believe in certain "portions" of the supernatural world. But evidence? Nah, that's reserved for the top dogs only. On the CV universe, those who have access to this are those in on the Masquerade, more or less like our world's scientists have access to restricted shit we can only dream about.

PS: Most people will believe the supernatural with you giving them no evidence whatsoever. All you need is to cite the "right" supernatural claim for an individual to believe you. We live in an universe where there are real things with actual evidence that get denied, and impossible things with no evidence that get accepted. I don't see how that is so ludicrous on the CV universe when it's exactly how it goes on our world.

Quote
But how hard would it really be to take a good, unambiguous photo of a supernatural being in the CV universe?

It's not about how hard it is to produce evidence, but how hard it is to get people to look at it. And, depending how you were raised, THAT is really hard. I was raised in such a way that I won't even lose a single second with any claim of the supernatural that appears on my way. If Jesus himself produces fish to me, I will IMMEDIATELY discard the miracle as bollocks and go on my merry way to ignorance.

Even so, there will be people to believe it, exactly like in the real world. Pareidolia itself gets people to believe in the most insane shit with zero effort. I evoke UMA News again to demonstrate that "believing evidence of the supernatural in the CV Universe" is not such a foreign concept in the CV universe as we're making it to be. However, not everyone will consider that to be trustworthy. I know I wouldn't.

We're discussing too many things at the same time, I think. There being evidence of the supernatural on the CV universe and people's ability to absorb this evidence are two separate, very different things. There being supernatural occurrences in this universe does not automatically make it implausible for people to not believe it. And, we have real occurences on the real world that get dismissed just as a skeptic would dismiss claims of a Skeleton moving via magic.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 09:58:06 PM by theplottwist »
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Offline Belmontoya

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Re: Is Transylvania/Wallachia in the CV universe more isolated than in reality?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2018, 09:07:03 PM »
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Well said plot twist. You’re absolutely right.

And if the Trump garbage isn’t enough to convince you...

How about the flat earthers?

It’s true. People live in their own realities no matter what honest work scientists present and what facts stare us squarely in the eyes.

We’re in danger of a modern dark ages.

Nothing put forward here is far fetched or beyond the realm of possibilities.

People now believe whatever they wish and everything is up for debate. Even the fact that the fucking earth is round.

????‍♂️
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Offline Nagumo

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Re: Is Transylvania/Wallachia in the CV universe more isolated than in reality?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2018, 01:03:56 PM »
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OK no, that's not what I said. I might have misrepresented myself somewhere. If so, apologies -- may this answer stand as the "canon" version of my thought process:

I DON'T think it's so easy to prove the supernatural in the CV universe, for many reasons: Enemies burst into flames leaving nothing behind, the Church has a stranglehold on information, it has agents to go and do "cleaning up", merely witnessing these monsters and escaping alive to tell the tale is in itself a feat not easily accomplished (unless you're goddamn Hammer apparently). And that's not getting to Dracula and how that much harder would be to prove HIM as real. And ALL of that ON TOP of people's own biases, which are by themselves incredibly powerful things.

Now, it's still possible. Just not that easy that flipping a rock proves the existence of a fairy. We NEED to understand that OUR perspective of the CV universe just happens to always be positioned where the supernatural action is taking place (which, in most of the games, is somewhere pretty isolated). But it being possible, then there are cults amassing hundreds of thousands of followers, just as Graham's modern 21th century cult.

Also let me say this: Celia summoned monsters in the middle of the street. Once. All of them burning into nothingness, in a battle lasting incredible 2 minutes. This is not something that happens everyday constantly. This is enough to AT MOST become a town rumor/urban legend to attract tourists.

I don't really disagree with any of the things you're saying here. All of the reasons are valid ways the masquerade could be upheld. However,  I think where we disagree is how much importance we assign to each reason. In my mind, a "plausabile" masquerade would constitue 95% of the supernatural only occuring in remote, isolated areas, 3% Church cover ups and 2% plausible deniability (I know I just made up those numbers on the spot but it gets the point across). I assume in your case the distribution would be somewhat different.

About the Celia incident, I personally wouldn't use plausible deniability to explain why that event didn't cause the masquerade to break. Maybe she used some kind of Witch Time ability so regular passerby's wouldn't notice. Though I guess it's just matter of preference and it's something relatively minor that can be handwaved away.

The 1476 incident is a whole other matter however. Just out curiosity, how do you imagine Dracula's monsters terrorizing Wallachia for several months and the outside world not knowing about it? There's just no way such a large scale incident would have occured without being uncovered eventually.  Historians are pretty good at separating the myths and stories from things that actually happened. I doubt false rumors spread by the Church or something would even be remotely enough to keep historians fooled for centuries. That doesn't mean it can't be made sense of, but I think it requires a more carefully crafted explanation.   

I'll respond to the rest of your post some other time. It's fun to see this thread has sparked some debate!

Offline Dracula9

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Re: Is Transylvania/Wallachia in the CV universe more isolated than in reality?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2018, 01:47:46 PM »
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Just out curiosity, how do you imagine Dracula's monsters terrorizing Wallachia for several months and the outside world not knowing about it?

give them fake human forms and dress them in armor, maybe?

i mean it worked for griffith


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Offline theplottwist

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Re: Is Transylvania/Wallachia in the CV universe more isolated than in reality?
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2018, 01:54:28 PM »
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Just out curiosity, how do you imagine Dracula's monsters terrorizing Wallachia for several months and the outside world not knowing about it?

"Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

That's a Hitler quote that encompasses more or less how I rationalize 1476. 1.5 million people died during this genocide, and barely anyone knows about it. Hitler knew that people have short-term memory, and exploited it. Today we have Holocaust negationists, and I assure you the future is not bright on this subject. There will come the day when Holocaust is disputed as fiercely as Climate Change is now.

It's not that the outside world "didn't know" about Dracula's genocide. News about an event of such grand scale would certainly escape the borders of Wallachia. If the Church received word of this LONG after it started, imagine neighboring countries and other institutions? Certainly word about it got out.

However, I'll quote myself here:

Quote
Imagine proving to the entire world Dracula is real when not even the people who live around his castle and the destruction he causes can remember him for 100 years.

Maintaing the Masquerade is not something that happens in one day. But that's not to say it is so hard to do in the CV universe. And that's because they fought a pretty much invisible war.

See, you know how science is done, archaeology included. It needs empirical evidence, and the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary must be your evidence. If there was a grand-scale monster invasion that got pushed back by Vampire Hunters, where then are the remains of these monsters? Forgemasters? Where are their bodies (one of them quite literally vanished)? Where is the supposedly demonic castle? Oh, writen accounts? Will you trust the account of ignorant, supersticious people shaken by mass hysteria? Were not these the same people executing other on false accusations of witchcraft?

"Oh but they could discover that these monster remains disappear" nice. However, even if you could somehow figure this out, you're now discredited. Because it is INCREDIBLY convenient that the evidence for such a fantastic story just happens to "disappear". The academia would kick you out without a second thought, exactly like it does with woo-peddlers.

In only one hundred years time, the people LIVING there had already forgotten Dracula. One hundred years is more than enough time for a powerful institution with actual knowledge of the supernatural to spread misinformation, clean up whatever evidence could be brought up to prove the supernatural, and why not, track down documented accounts of this event. The further in the future we go, the hardest it is to prove that 1476 happened. Couple that with institutions wanting to uphold the Masquerade on this universe fabricating "official" documents about Vlad Dracula fighting the Turks, and there you go.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 02:08:09 PM by theplottwist »
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Re: Is Transylvania/Wallachia in the CV universe more isolated than in reality?
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2018, 03:35:53 PM »
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give them fake human forms and dress them in armor, maybe?

i mean it worked for griffith

why is everything you say correct even if it is a theory
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Offline Nagumo

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Re: Is Transylvania/Wallachia in the CV universe more isolated than in reality?
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2018, 11:23:51 AM »
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Although it might be true that the Armenian genocide wasn't well known at that time (was it even well known before then?), I think it's safe to say the Amenians themselves didn't forget. The same would hold true for the people in Wallachia. What happend in 1476 is such an impactful event that it would be impossible not for it to live on in collective memory long after the fact. That doesn't mean accounts of what happend would just be limited to oral tradition, either. 
Let's not forget that writing is a thing, too. It would be part of official histories, educational books, diaries, etc, etc. You wouldn't be able to dismiss that with things like mass hysteria. Just imagine a totally dry document, doesn't have anything to do with any stories, talking about "and we paid five hundred gold pieces to the baron for the last shipment of goods from his landholdings, 200 gold pieces in gifts to the duke to celebrate his wedding, and one thousand gold pieces to rebuild [specific village names] because they got burned down and the inhabitants eaten by monsters."

The fact that people remember is also supported by canon. For example, the All About Akumajou Dracula guide mentions that for the village people who live in the area, Dracula is more than just a legend. And this makes a lot of sense when you take into account what I mentioned above. People within Wallachia are very much aware about what's going on, it's the people from outside that don't know.

That's why I advocated for the idea that Wallachia should be closed of from the outside world in some way. Because there will be evidence in abundance for any researchers who visits the area.                 
 

Offline theplottwist

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Re: Is Transylvania/Wallachia in the CV universe more isolated than in reality?
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2018, 12:09:41 PM »
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The fact that people remember is also supported by canon. For example, the All About Akumajou Dracula guide mentions that for the village people who live in the area, Dracula is more than just a legend. And this makes a lot of sense when you take into account what I mentioned above. People within Wallachia are very much aware about what's going on, it's the people from outside that don't know.         

Except that this guide relates to Super Castlevania IV, a very much not-canon game, and says funny things such as "all Belmonts are Dhampirs", something that contradicts even the game it's supposed to be a guide to. Didn't Ichiro Tezuka himself state that these bits of information are prototypes to his novel?

Unless you can show that this specific claim relates to the main canon even if it's inside a guide about a not-canon game (whose information does fly pretty hard in the face of actual, very well known canon), then I cannot accept this one (as argument in this discussion, I mean -- what anyone thinks is "better headcanon" or not is none of my business).

Still, "some people know" and "a lot enough of people know that proof of Dracula becomes indisputable" are really, really different things. These people are exceptions, not the rule. I can cite right now people who know Dracula to be real even after a hundred years: His cultists. This doesn't mean much on the "historical evidence" standpoint. If so many people knew for certain, Dracula wouldn't get revived as the memory of his terror wouldn't let faith die.

The other points hold some merit. I'll address them later.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 07:00:28 PM by theplottwist »
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Offline Nagumo

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Re: Is Transylvania/Wallachia in the CV universe more isolated than in reality?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2018, 01:28:03 PM »
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Hmm, well there are at least two official timelines (the one from the official website and the one from the Aria of Sorrow artbook) that mention that Simon's victory "became well known throughout the world/the land" (depending on how you translate 世界).

Offline Dracula9

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Re: Is Transylvania/Wallachia in the CV universe more isolated than in reality?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2018, 05:47:56 PM »
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and i'm quite sure the people of asia knew of the exploits of genghis khan forward and backward during his heyday

how many people in modern times do you think could remember and recite those exploits as well as the people then?

alternatively, pagans of the world before and after christianity took over

"but it was widespread and well-known then" doesn't mean anything when hundreds of years lie in transit


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Re: Is Transylvania/Wallachia in the CV universe more isolated than in reality?
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2018, 02:54:50 AM »
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People today don't believe Genghis Khan and pagans are just myths, though. If Dracula revived once in 700 A.D.  and had his monsters attack a single village or something, I could buy that perhaps there isn't sufficient documentation available that would proof it was all real, but the 1476 incident happened way to recently and was too large-scale for this explanation to work. We should also keep in mind that every time Dracula revives and his army of monster start attacking people, this would generate more dry, historical documents as the one I mentioned in my earlier post. In Soma's case, that would mean there would be reliable evidence for Dracula's existence as recent as 1999.

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