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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: cecil-kain on November 20, 2011, 09:49:11 AM

Title: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on November 20, 2011, 09:49:11 AM
After nearly 2 nearly months, Konami's Facebook team has finally opened a casual dialogue with Operation: Akumajo on the official Castlevania Page.  Up until now, the only acknowledgement from Konami had been a couple isolated incidents of censorship.   Anyone interested in our activities should find these exchanges somewhat interesting --the 3rd conversation in particular highlights some recent quotes from David Cox, Operation: Akumajo's response, and Konami's counterpoint.  Engagement on any level is progress --hopefully these discussion continue to move in a productive direction.

http://www.facebook.com/castlevania/posts/10150367949706689 (http://www.facebook.com/castlevania/posts/10150367949706689)

Quote
Victor Hunterposted toCastlevania
This is a total longshot, but I'm just incredibly curious. Is there any chance that we'll see the N64 Castlevania games appear on Wii Virtual Console? Or any of the GB games on 3DS Virtual Console? I've been hankering for some 64 action and physical copies are brutally hard to come by. Thanks!
Like · · November 14 at 1:02am ·

    Ron Loposky and 3 others like this.
        Castlevania While we don't currently have any plans for the N64 Castlevania titles and the Virtual Console, it isn't outside the realm of possibility, either! And make sure to check out Castlevania: The Adventure ReBirth on WiiWare, a fantastic re-imagining of the first GB game. Keep checking back with us on this page as we continue to provide the most current Castlevania news.
        November 14 at 5:01pm · Like
        Victor Hunter Thanks a ton for the response! I really appreciate it. I try to recommend ReBirth to everyone I can. It was a fantastic release that definitely deserves some love from more people. Guess I'll try to hunt down the N64 carts for the time being though. Thanks again and keep being awesome, Castlevania-Facebook-Representative-Dudes!
        November 14 at 5:31pm · Like
        Operation: Akumajo Although Rebirth is a decent Castlevania game in a retro sort of way, it falls painfully short of any ambition to reaching its full potential. If you consider what modern consoles can actually do, Rebirth highlights Konami's refusal to make a serious investment in the 2-D artform.
        November 15 at 9:33am · Like · 1
        Castlevania ‎Operation: Akumajo: Uh... ReBirth was a serious investment in the 2D artform, it included Castlevania ReBirth, Contra ReBirth and Gradius ReBirth. And they were all designed for the WiiWare, not full release. And have you tried Hard Corps Uprising? Amazing stuff. If you wanted another 2D Castlevania for current gen consoles you just have to say so, not jab at our attempts from 2 years ago.
        November 15 at 11:44am · Like · 1
        Operation: Akumajo
        Please don’t confuse honest criticism for disrespect. WiiWare is a venue for modest low-budget releases. It’s a cost-effective gateway for smaller independent developers to deliver their content to market. Larger companies also use WiiWare to dip their creative toes in the water without committing massive sums of money to a risky idea. Capcom’s Megaman 9 was such an experiment, and ultimately demonstrated that there was a market for low-cost products that tickle the nostalgia of mature gamers. The Rebirth games were clearly an attempt to capitalize on that market.

        Accepting Castlevania Rebirth in that context...

        The game was very short and took very few creative risks. The one caveat would be some very clever stage designs which are amongst the best of the classic-vania style. Although the aesthetics are somewhat fresh, most of the game has a very generic Castlevania feeling to it --and the remix heavy soundtrack doesn’t help Rebirth find a distinct identity from the rest of the series. Comparing it to peer games like SCV IV or Bloodlines, Rebirth feels somewhat half-hearted --much like Castlevania: Dracula X for the SNES.
        November 15 at 2:05pm · Like · 2
        Operation: Akumajo
        In terms of serious investment...

        Konami was one the right track with the Dracula X Chronicles. Not only does it appeal to the same crowd as Rebirth, but that game also demonstrates what can be achieved when Castlevania is taken seriously. The 2.5-D graphic presentation was gorgeous and refreshing --exactly the sort of treatment needed for Castlevania to compete in the modern market. Although there are a couple nitpicky details (like Rondo’s outdated play-control) the only real problem was that someone at Konami decided DXC wasn’t worthy of the full HD home console treatment.
        November 15 at 2:06pm · Like · 1
        Dengo Vlad Tepes
        dear konami you must get this game more seriously
        you have tried all kind of platforms on it

        co op game " CV HD"

        ...See More
        November 15 at 3:05pm · Like · 1
        Dengo Vlad Tepes sorry for my grammer but i came from saudi
        November 15 at 3:05pm · Like
        José Vázquez I already have DXC on the PSP and I loved it to death. I would so re-buy DXC if it came out on the PSN to be played on the PS3, rather than the PSP!
        November 15 at 3:55pm · Like
        Ron Loposky I'm still hopeful for a Castlevania 5 sidescroller with 3D elements in the same vein as Super Mario Wii, Donkey King Country Returns & Sonic Generations! Please Konami execs/Castlevania team, make it so!
        November 15 at 5:51pm · Unlike · 1

http://www.facebook.com/castlevania/posts/10150372889006689 (http://www.facebook.com/castlevania/posts/10150372889006689)

Quote
Andy Patschullposted toCastlevania
‎"If you wanted another 2D Castlevania for current gen consoles you just have to say so, not jab at our attempts from 2 years ago."
-Castlevania
Found that as a response from Operation: Akumajo's post.
Like · · Thursday at 12:39am ·

        Operation: Akumajo No hard feelings. The Konami rep probably wasn’t familiar with our group objectives. Here is our mission statement to avoid any further confusion.

        http://www.facebook.com/pages/Operation-Akumajo/243488722337560?sk=info (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Operation-Akumajo/243488722337560?sk=info)
        Operation: Akumajo
        Welcome to Operation: Akumajo! We are an activist community dedicated to preser...See More
        Page: ‎272 like this
        Thursday at 1:24am · Like ·
        Castlevania Out of context that does sound a little snarky, and we apologize. To that effect, however, we do stand by our decision to defend the ReBirth series.

        @Andy Patschull: Be careful not to post out of context in the future. Operation: Akumajo has a mission statement that we respect, but is not our own.
        Thursday at 5:06pm · Like
        Andy Patschull
        What I was trying to say as a point Castlevania, was that Castlevania games have always been hard. More recently it is not so because of the grinding you can do or a terrible pose to be an equally terrible game, God of War. I personally think that the move to make it like God of War was bad. But I also tried a suggestion, and that was to take away holding the players hand while fighting bosses, make the bosses hard and memorable again. And if you are trying to please the "casual" gamers, don't treat them like they are retarded.
        Thursday at 9:52pm · Like
        Andy Patschull And FYI, I wasn't trying to make that sound out of text, I am just bad at quoting things. But Operation: Akumajo was more pointing toward the fact of the Castlevania one didn't go too well for par for the Castlevania series.
        Thursday at 9:59pm · Like
        José Vázquez ReBirth is a series, and not just one game?!? Awesomity! Looking foeward to seeing the rest...
        Friday at 11:49am · Like
        Castlevania ‎José Vázquez: ReBirth is a series of different Konami games developed by M2, one for Contra, one for Gradius, and one for Castlevania. There may be more in the future, but we have no current plans for them at the time.
        Friday at 12:27pm · Like
        José Vázquez Oh, OK. Thanks.
        Friday at 12:34pm · Like

http://www.facebook.com/castlevania/posts/10150373409406689 (http://www.facebook.com/castlevania/posts/10150373409406689)

Quote
Operation: Akumajoposted toCastlevania
Lords of Shadow Producer, David Cox, had a very interesting conversation with an Akumajo fan on his Twitter account last week. Here it is...

(continued...)
Like · · Thursday at 9:47am ·

    2 people like this.
        Operation: Akumajo
        ‎---------------------------------
        November 11, 2011

        Stanislav Plakhov: Mr.Cox can I ask you a question? Why CLoS wasn't released in Japan as a part of Akumajo Dracula series. Just curious.

        David Cox: Because it's not part of the Akumajo Dracula series.

        Stanislav Plakhov: Simple. But isn't it a part of Castlevania series which is kind of... you know, the same thing (to me at least).

        David Cox: It's not the same thing. Castlevania: Lords of Shadow has nothing to do with Akumajo series. It's completely separate.” It's a whole new approach, a new brand that uses certain DNA from previous CV games from the series but it isn't part of it. its set in a separate universe. It's doesn't follow any other CV game. Make sense now?

        Stanislav Plakhov: All right. Thanks. I know all that. Not new to the series. Playing it since the very first game. Thanks for answering anyway.
        ----------------------------------------------------

        Cox has given the “separate universe” line dozens of times to questions like these, but in this particular case he’s also making a very clear distinction between the Akumajo and Castlevania brands. The fact is that Akumajo Dracula was rebranded as Castlevania during the localization of the original NES game, and we’ve all been playing Akumajo Dracula games under the Castlevania name for 25 years.

        Although we agree that Lords of Shadow is not an Akumajo game, we find it highly disingenuous and misleading to say that it *is* a Castlevania game. This clearly preys on the ignorance of casual fans that expect the Akumajo experience from the Castlevania games they purchase. It’s also interesting to note that Konami marketed Lords of Shadow as a reboot --not a separate universe. Cox makes no mention of the reboot here. He appears to believe in a multiversal approach to Castlevania --and we couldn’t agree more. Its time for Konami to step forward and explain their intentions on this issue.
        Thursday at 9:49am · Like · 1
        Dario Daki C Whoah... what an aggressive person he is - that Cox guy. I feel pitty for Plakhov, as it seems like he was attacked when asked about it.
        Thursday at 10:40am · Like
        José Vázquez I don't see it as an attack, even though I am an LOS fan I will not kiss Cox's ass nor will I defend him if he acts with douchebaggery. I'm glad that Cox appears to believe in a Castlevania multiverse, one with LOS Universe and a separate IGAverse. Though it is a shame that he is causing that confusion with Akumajo and Castlevania.
        Thursday at 4:06pm · Like · 1
        Castlevania
        ‎Operation: Akumajo: Sir, you wound us! LoS has been marketed as a re-imagining, which is consistent with Dave Cox's comments on how it does or doesn't relate to previous titles. (konami.com/games/cvlos) Castlevania is a series that has had many people heading the franchise over the years and the history and future are at the whim of those in charge of the project. Before IGA's involvement in SotN, many others had contributed to the series as well. Do we discount Bloodlines because it is known as Vampire Killer in Japan and not as Akumajo Dracula? How about Akumajo Densetsu (Castlevania III)?

        We're rambling, but let's stay focused here. According to David Cox, the game does not relate back to the previously established history of the Akumajo series, but we on the Social Media Team think the themes, weapons, and art do invoke the 'feel' of Castlevania. LoS is its own story, but we think you'll agree the gameplay is pure Castlevania.
        Thursday at 6:02pm · Like
        Dario Daki C I prefer IGAs Castlevanias, Michiru Yamane's music, and the artwork of Ayami Kojima. :)
        Thursday at 6:12pm · Like · 2
        Andy Patschull ‎Castlevania, LoS did not feel like a Castlevania nor did it seem like a Castlevania in any way. :/ It felt like a crappy version of God of War. And I already find that game extremely crappy.
        Thursday at 10:20pm · Like
        Ron Loposky I thought LoS was a very solid attempt at bringing the classicvania (not metroidvania) feel to the 3D arena! I've been playing the series since the original in '87, and I think MS did a great job creating a 3D classicvania platformer adventure that has linear stages (like the originals), complete with little map animations in between levels! I'm looking forward to the sequel.
        Thursday at 11:09pm · Like
        Ron Loposky I think there is room enough for 3D & 2D entries in the series with multiple universes. I'm just hoping Konami gets on board with the idea of returning some entries (not all) to a numbered order. We have Sonic 4, Contra 4, Mega Man 9 & 10, Mario Kart 7. Where's Castlevania 5, is that so much to ask for? More Simon Belmont!
        Thursday at 11:16pm · Like
        Operation: Akumajo
        ‎@ Castlevania

        Although we agree that Lords of Shadow has clearly taken inspiration from Akumajo Dracula, we believe there are enough differences to question the legitimacy of its claim to the Castlevania brand. The game is bold and divisive to say the least. The one thing our members agree on is that Lords of Shadow violates Akumajo Dracula’s core mythology --and cannot be accepted as an appropriate reboot or replacement for the existing continuity. The best thing Konami can possibly do at this point is to commit to a multiversal approach for Castlevania. Announcing the Demon Castle War would set this fanbase on fire!
        Friday at 12:45am · Like
        Ron Loposky
        I believe Konami is creating a CV multiverse for us fans. I doubt that the original canon has been retconned & I'm still hopeful for the book end of the Demon Castle storyline. I'm okay with the direction LoS has taken. A new separate storyline with re-imagined characters with familiar names is a good way to bring in new fans. My perfect scenario would be 3 versions of the franchise to exist at the same time with games being released in all 3 categories:

        1. New School 3D games in the vein of LoS. Most likely LoS storyline & it's sequels. Perfect for new-comers and younger, next-gen gamers. Personally, I'm very much looking forward to LoS's sequel. I thought LoS was near perfection! Visually it's a 10!

        2. Metroidvania 2D games that are open exploration and that focus on modern times and the latter of Iga's canon, Demon Castle Wars, etc. They would be known as the "blank" of "blank" games (name examples: Rondo of Blood, Symphony of the Night, Aria of Sorrow, Harmony of Despair, etc.) They could be 2D with 3D elements (example: Super Mario Wii, Sonic Generations, Donkey Kong Country Returns). I imagine this is what most of the hard core CV fans want.

        3. Classicvania 2D games that would be linear platformers that are in stages & would play like Castlevania 1, 3 & 4. They could focus on the early part of the series canon, Trevor, Simon, Christopher and all the years before or in between. This would be a perfect way to introduce new Belmonts we've never heard of. These games would be numbered, starting where they left off with Castlevania 5. They could be short 8 or 16-bit DLCs similar to CV Adventure ReBirth & Mega Man 9 & 10. Honestly, being a classic gamer, this is what I'd be most interested in.
        Friday at 10:07am · Like
        Castlevania ‎Operation: Akumajo: We're just trying to point out that one doesn't have to erase the other. Burton's Batman and Nolan's Batman can both exist with erasing the other, we think it shouldn't be any different with Castlevania. It may look different depending on who is working on it at the time, but each is to be judged separately.
        Friday at 11:29am · Like
        José Vázquez Castlevania: You forgot Schumacher's Batman. :P
        Friday at 11:37am · Like
        José Vázquez
        However, in all seriousness, I do agree with Ron Loposky above. I still want to see, not just the '99 game, but also the sequel to SOTN which is also the prequel to OOE, which explains how and why Richter became known as the Last Belmont for a period of time and how/why did the Morris clan wound up with the Vampire Killer as well as the beginning of the Lecarde clan (this one would probably be a OOE sequel/Bloodlines prequel) and how did Drac end up encased in that coffin thing in OOE.
        Friday at 11:41am · Like · 1
        José Vázquez ALL THAT AND the continuation of the Gabriel story.
        Friday at 11:42am · Like · 1
        Ron Loposky Castlevania, can we at least expect some news on the series soon? Keyword being "soon". A simple "yes" or "no" would be sufficient. Not looking for any specifics, just something for the fans to look forward to. I realize the last few comments I've made have been either over-looked or ignored. Thanks in advance.
        Friday at 11:45am · Like
        Castlevania ‎Ron Loposky: Unfortunately a 'yes' or 'no' at this point is anything but simple. When we are ready to announce something, it will be prominently displayed here.

        We understand this isn't the answer you are looking for, but Konami policy is not to comment on speculation or rumor. And even if we are unable to respond to your previous comments does not mean it is ignored, we are constantly vigilant. :)
        Friday at 12:25pm · Like
        Operation: Akumajo
        ‎@ Castlevania

        Just to build upon your earlier point... There was a time when some Castlevania fans were up in arms about Igarashi throwing Legends, CotM, and the N64 games out of the official continuity. At the time he said, those games just didn’t fit his vision for the Castlevania universe, so they were dismissed as mere “side stories”. It’s not like Konami sent reps door to door to confiscate those games --they can still be played and enjoyed to this very day. Victor Hunter raised an interesting question the other day, about Konami’s willingness to eventually release the N64 games on virtual console, but that’s really a separate discussion....

        The key difference with Lords of Shadow, is that half a dozen games had already whet our appetite and built massive expectations for the 1999 Demon Castle War. We believe it was irresponsible to reboot Castlevania, until the original continuity had been given proper closure. Konami’s commitment to support both universes simultaneously is the only reasonable way to address the gap that’s been created. If indeed your team has any information on Castlevania’s immediate future, it appears to be held by some sort of non-disclosure agreement. Fair enough. We can wait awhile.
        Friday at 12:56pm · Like · 1
        Ron Loposky Thanks again & always appreciate a reply. Here's hoping for an announcement sooner than later! :)
        Friday at 1:05pm · Like
        Christopher Hughes ‎:O. Intense! Offcial CV having a discussion with Operation; Akumajo!!!! Forget 1999 DCW, this is what i've been waiting for :). Nice work guys!!!!!!
        Friday at 6:10pm · Like
        Christopher Hughes Plakhov is gangsta! he struck a chord.
        Friday at 6:14pm · Like

Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Vrakanox on November 20, 2011, 10:16:48 AM
I would love to see a 1999 game and a Draculas Curse remake in full 2.5d awesomeness on the Vita or 3DS. Of course I would prefer the PS3/360 but I don't think Konami would go for it. They haven't done a full blown Castlevania on a home console since SOTN. A 3D castlevania could work on home consoles as long as it sticks to the original timeline and gets a bigger budget, in fact I would like to see one. My main concern is that the only big budget Castlevania titles we are going to see from here on out are going to be tied to the Lords of Shadow storyline which IMO kind of takes a massive dump on all the Castlevania (Akumajo Dracula) lore up until now.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: beingthehero on November 20, 2011, 12:45:14 PM
Up until now, the only acknowledgement from Konami had been a couple isolated incidents of censorship.  Engagement on any level is progress --hopefully these discussion continue to move in a productive direction.

You make it sound like you're negotiating with North Korea.

It's really interesting to watch the beginnings of a restraining order.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Ahasverus on November 20, 2011, 02:05:20 PM
Interesting, so LoS is the westernized Akumajou Dracula? sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: uzo on November 20, 2011, 02:16:08 PM
I see you're still not handling this with much civility.

This childish pouting, unwarranted self importance, misguided sense of entitlement, and continually treating Konami like the enemy, is why you guys are struggling to get off the ground. It certainly is keeping myself, and others, from showing hands of support.

I don't want to be associated with a group like this. It's honestly embarrassing to the whole community.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 20, 2011, 02:38:18 PM
^ What those two said.

you should take notes from 100,000 strong. They dont treat Capcom like the enemy. Thay conduct themselves civilly, and professionally. You guys however, sound extremely self important. You simply demand things with no good reason, just because you dont like LoS. that is the only underlying concept behind O.A.  "We don't like LoS." the problem with that though, is that you dont actually act on that. you act on OTHER demands, with that "We dont like LOS" mentality behind them. You demand big budget releases instead of games likeRebirth, without even looking at facts behind them, (Castlevania rebirth only being part of a series of "rebirth" remake games, not some halfassed attempt at a classic game)

100,000 strong is simply about reviving a cancelled game that had massive fan support and which CAPCOm cancelled without fulfilling their promise of an interest gauging prototype.

You guys should humble yourselves and just concentrate on a single goal. And that goal should be a Castlevania 25'th anniversary game.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: jestercolony on November 20, 2011, 02:53:33 PM
You make it sound like you're negotiating with North Korea.

^ - This made me LOL irl.


But seriously, it's superb to see the operation start to tug on the ears and eyes a bit at Konami.  That honestly makes me smile, as it seems they are no longer ignoring the pleas of the fans and are in fact listening (perhaps.) as I for one, enjoy all aspects of the franchise (either 2D/3D) it just pains me to know they actually had ignored the 25th anniversary of such a beloved classic when they had in fact promised the fan base something. I for one, will stand by with supporting of the project (I.e group) because I too  have a desire to see Julius and the Demon Castle War.

^ What those two said.

you should take notes from 100,000 strong. They dont treat Capcom like the enemy. Thay conduct themselves civilly, and professionally. You guys however, sound extremely self important. You simply demand things with no good reason, just because you dont like LoS. that is the only underlying concept behind O.A.  "We don't like LoS." the problem with that though, is that you dont actually act on that. you act on OTHER demands, with that "We dont like LOS" mentality behind them. You demand big budget releases instead of games likeRebirth, without even looking at facts behind them, (Castlevania rebirth only being part of a series of "rebirth" remake games, not some halfassed attempt at a classic game)

100,000 strong is simply about reviving a cancelled game that had massive fan support and which CAPCOm cancelled without fulfilling their promise of an interest gauging prototype.

You guys should humble yourselves and just concentrate on a single goal. And that goal should be a Castlevania 25'th anniversary game.

Capcom has always listened to their fans, just like Nintendo has. He honestly isn't demanding anything and it isn't the core fact of enjoying LoS or not. The reason why a lot of us are ticked off is because of the fact of what David has said, he's all talk and no show in promises. Konami states is a "reboot", as David has stated nothing of a "reboot", he probably needs to get his ego in check and is continuing to be all talk, as he did when he made his altercation to hype up (or piss off) new and old fans alike.  There is no direct attack honestly in what I see, its just intellectual conversation from a business perspective to reserve the "2D" aspect of the franchise we all grew up on.

It's not like the dude/group is holding Gabriel hostage for a ransom for $1bill *Dr. Evil pose* or threatens to use Outer Heaven against them. -_-;






Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Claimh Solais on November 20, 2011, 03:49:38 PM
I sent you a PM, Cecil. It basically can be summed up like this "tldr: Let's get our shit together."

Cuz seriously? I think OA's doing it wrong.
You are being far too demanding. I'm not even online half the time, but my brother is checking the page quite often.

I can't believe you actually attacked DXC for being on the PSP. That was one of the selling points about it. I mean, come on. It had SotN on the go. It brought us Rondo. To be honest, I would not have enjoyed it as much if it were on console. Plus, the game itself feels to short to be a full console title.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 20, 2011, 04:28:09 PM
PSP is the reason we dont have other games like DXC.

The PSP never caught on as well as in the US in Japan, at least not as fast. DXC came out 2007. Maverick Hunter X Came out in 06. The PSP was not as widespread in japan as in the US back then. They both suffered a lack of Japanese sales, and thus had no "sequels". If they had been PS2, they might have sold better.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Las on November 20, 2011, 04:57:59 PM
I agree with Claimh. But i seriously think OA also is too demanding. When you approach it like that,they are more than likely less inclined to answer your requests. Perhaps approaching it by asking would be better. I'm sure if they like what you have to say they will answer you. On a professional level it is good they got back to your and they show they have a very professional manner in which i, as a fan, would expect from such a great company as konami. However, not all request for games can be answered by a company that is going in a direction in which they feel is best, when you or others may be asking for something that may not be appealing to what will work with the general audience. It seems aswell to have patience with requests too. IT may not be that they aren't listening to what your saying. It's that it may not have the popularity or may not be popular now(maybe down the road) than something they feel they want to make now. Don't forget as awesome as games may be, there is a business side to it too. They are gonna wanna make a game that is profitalbe aswell as fun for the fan base. Not that i'm requesting it but i've seen the emergence of the castlevania arcade game, and could see the wiimote or ps3 move used as a whip like the arcaed version. Don't know if they're going in that direction but at the moment it seems doable and could make them money aswell. Well i'll say just be patient with requests, like i said you never know if they're going to hear your request and make good on it. Just suggests at this point,no need for demands.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: A-Yty on November 21, 2011, 06:01:56 AM
Quote
David Cox: It's not the same thing. Castlevania: Lords of Shadow has nothing to do with Akumajo series. It's completely separate.” It's a whole new approach, a new brand that uses certain DNA from previous CV games from the series but it isn't part of it. its set in a separate universe. It's doesn't follow any other CV game. Make sense now?

No, Cox. It really doesn't make sense. Because that means it shouldn't even use the name Castlevania.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: crisis on November 21, 2011, 06:30:32 AM
Cox pretty much confirmed LoS is Castlevania but in name only lmao
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on November 21, 2011, 07:21:12 AM
You make it sound like you're negotiating with North Korea.

It's really interesting to watch the beginnings of a restraining order.

I see you're still not handling this with much civility.

This childish pouting, unwarranted self importance, misguided sense of entitlement, and continually treating Konami like the enemy, is why you guys are struggling to get off the ground. It certainly is keeping myself, and others, from showing hands of support.

I don't want to be associated with a group like this. It's honestly embarrassing to the whole community.

^ What those two said.

you should take notes from 100,000 strong. They dont treat Capcom like the enemy. Thay conduct themselves civilly, and professionally. You guys however, sound extremely self important. You simply demand things with no good reason, just because you dont like LoS. that is the only underlying concept behind O.A.  "We don't like LoS." the problem with that though, is that you dont actually act on that. you act on OTHER demands, with that "We dont like LOS" mentality behind them. You demand big budget releases instead of games likeRebirth, without even looking at facts behind them, (Castlevania rebirth only being part of a series of "rebirth" remake games, not some halfassed attempt at a classic game)

100,000 strong is simply about reviving a cancelled game that had massive fan support and which CAPCOm cancelled without fulfilling their promise of an interest gauging prototype.

You guys should humble yourselves and just concentrate on a single goal. And that goal should be a Castlevania 25'th anniversary game.

Since when is it childish, unprofessional or uncivilized to criticize a company's products or policies?  Can anyone cite any examples of wontonly arrogant, rude, or abusive behavior toward Konami or its employees?  Can anyone cite a position taken by Operation: Akumajo, that couldn't be supported by a well-reasoned, rational argument --if not the facts?  I understand our objectives don't appeal to everyone --but can anyone cite any demands in our mission statement that the fanbase DOESN'T actually want?

I understand the comparisons to the tone of other fan-based operations, but there are plenty of apples and oranges to go around.  Operation Rainfall lobbies for the localization of 3 existing games.  100,000 Strong lobbies for the remake of a cancelled Megaman game.  And Operation Moonfall came together *after* the Zelda series producer, Eiji Aonuma, challenged the fanbase to show their support for Majora’s Mask (he’s actually interested in remaking the game).  All 3 of these operations came together in different ways for different reasons, but they had one very important thing in common *publicity for their causes* courtesy of mainstream media outlets like IGN.

Operation: Akumajo was founded right here on the CVD Forums after numerous polls revealed outrage within the fanbase over Konami’s treatment of Castlevania.  Yes the LoS reboot was an issue, but there were also many quality related grievances as well --and it was Konami’s failure to celebrate the Anniversary that really set all of this off.  Unlike Zelda's 25th, Megaman Legends 3, or the Operation Rainfall games --Castlevania’s 25th Anniversary never got any serious coverage from the mainstream gaming press, and neither did we.  Therefore, we built our community by ourselves, from the ground up, with buzz, outreach, and viral campaigning.

While both Nintendo and Capcom have engaged these other operations --they have done so under the glare of a media spotlight. Konami was never under that kind of pressure.  Until Castlevania is back in the news, the only tool we have in our belt is our activism. Telling the truth about Konami and the state of Castlevania is the difference between survival and total irrelevance.

And one last thing about our numbers...  Let's face it --Castlevania has a very, very small fanbase compared to something like Zelda or Megaman.  Even if we enjoyed all of the advantages of mainstream publicity, we would still be a smaller operation for that very reason.  The fact is that only the hardest, hardcore Castlevania fans even know about us.  Mainstream fans are playing other games right now --they won't be reachable until Castlevania is actually back in the news.

If you want to criticize our growth, methods, or mission statement --and compare what we're doing to all of these other fan operations, that's just fine.  But please have the courtesy to look at ALL of the facts and cite specific concerns that we can actually discuss.

I sent you a PM, Cecil. It basically can be summed up like this "tldr: Let's get our shit together."

Cuz seriously? I think OA's doing it wrong.
You are being far too demanding. I'm not even online half the time, but my brother is checking the page quite often.

I can't believe you actually attacked DXC for being on the PSP. That was one of the selling points about it. I mean, come on. It had SotN on the go. It brought us Rondo. To be honest, I would not have enjoyed it as much if it were on console. Plus, the game itself feels to short to be a full console title.

Ah.  I know what you're talking about.  Konami recently censored part of a comment that was posted on the Castlevania Page, so I reposted just that particular snippet on our Facebook Page.  Unfortunately, the quote is a bit misleading out of context and it's confusing people.  For the benefit of general discussion I'll repost the entire comment in full right here.

-------------------------------------------------------
Operation: Akumajo to Castlevania

Please don’t confuse honest criticism for disrespect. WiiWare is a venue for modest low-budget releases. It’s a cost-effective gateway for smaller independent developers to deliver their content to market. Larger companies also use WiiWare to dip their creative toes in the water without committing massive sums of money to a risky idea. Capcom’s Megaman 9 was such an experiment, and ultimately demonstrated that there was a market for low-cost products that tickle the nostalgia of mature gamers. The Rebirth games were clearly an attempt to capitalize on that market.

Accepting Castlevania Rebirth in that context...

The game was very short and took very few creative risks. The one caveat would be some very clever stage designs which are amongst the best of the classic-vania style. Although the aesthetics are somewhat fresh, most of the game has a very generic Castlevania feeling to it --and the remix heavy soundtrack doesn’t help Rebirth find a distinct identity from the rest of the series. Comparing it to peer games like SCV IV or Bloodlines, Rebirth feels somewhat half-hearted --much like Castlevania: Dracula X for the SNES.

In terms of serious investment...

Konami was one the right track with the Dracula X Chronicles. Not only does it appeal to the same crowd as Rebirth, but that game also demonstrates what can be achieved when Castlevania is taken seriously. The 2.5-D graphic presentation was gorgeous and refreshing --exactly the sort of treatment needed for Castlevania to compete in the modern market. Although there are a couple nitpicky details (like Rondo’s outdated play-control) the only real problem was that someone at Konami decided DXC wasn’t worthy of the full HD home console treatment. Putting DXC on the PSP was easily one of the worst Castlevania decisions that Konami has ever made. Did they really expect the fanbase to drop their DSs and shell a couple hundred more dollars for Sony’s competing system? Oh well --that’s another discussion altogether...
-------------------------------------------------------

Also Claimh, a response to your personal message is forthcoming --I appreciate your patience.

PSP is the reason we dont have other games like DXC.

The PSP never caught on as well as in the US in Japan, at least not as fast. DXC came out 2007. Maverick Hunter X Came out in 06. The PSP was not as widespread in japan as in the US back then. They both suffered a lack of Japanese sales, and thus had no "sequels". If they had been PS2, they might have sold better.

YES! YES! EXACTLY!

Cox pretty much confirmed LoS is Castlevania but in name only lmao

Amusing, isn't it?   :rollseyes:
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Nagumo on November 21, 2011, 08:16:14 AM
No, Cox. It really doesn't make sense. Because that means it shouldn't even use the name Castlevania.

Lol, I love how angry and annoyed he sounds. When did he say that?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: uzo on November 21, 2011, 08:26:14 AM
Since when is it childish, unprofessional or uncivilized to criticize a company's products or policies?

When it's the way you're going about it already.

Can anyone cite any examples of wontonly arrogant, rude, or abusive behavior toward Konami or its employees?

Your first post in this thread.

Can anyone cite a position taken by Operation: Akumajo, that couldn't be supported by a well-reasoned, rational argument --if not the facts?  I understand our objectives don't appeal to everyone --but can anyone cite any demands in our mission statement that the fanbase DOESN'T actually want?

What we want varies from person to person. Some people DO want the LoS games to continue. That right there debunks your statement.

However you are missing the real point of all of this entirely. You can't think of specifically what you, or you perceive others, to want. You need to make a reasonable suggestion and actually back it up with a logical set of reasons why they should even bother. So far, I've seen nothing in the way of this from your organization. It's always been things like "1999DCW OR WE DON'T WANT IT".



I don't have time to go through every single bullet point, so I will summarize the idea.

Big media in the industry, such as IGN and others, will not usually publish about groups like this if they're handling it like you do. Take a better look at how other petitions and such have handled their campaigns. Learn how to professionally conduct yourself. Little things like using the organization's title to speak through with your own voice dwindle your professional reputation. I really don't have time to tutor you guys on this. Just study a lot more before you jump head long into it. As much as you may not want to hear it; if you can't seem to fix it just hand the reigns off to someone else. Then again, now you have this stigma already attached to the group's name and it may not be possible to turn the image you've already presented around. As it is, and I know you may disagree but, I don't think you will be accomplishing anything in the long run.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: TheouAegis on November 21, 2011, 09:04:56 AM
I don't belong to Operation: Akumajo, so my voice doesn't much matter. But I won't play LoS because I could tell at first glance that it wasn't my preferred style of play. I also don't want another LoI, because even though I play it, I don't like it. I also don't want a CV64, because I hated trying to play a 3D Castlevania platformer. (I'll give it another try one of these days). I also don't want another Metroidvania. I haven't played anything since SOTN because as soon as I seen that a game is a Metroidvania, I think, "Oh another boring find-and-grind with even worse graphics." I would have played Chronicles if I had a PSP. In other words, I want 2.5D Castlevanias and only 2.5Dvanias. I hate 3D games, personally.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: crisis on November 21, 2011, 09:44:30 AM
Quote
I haven't played anything since SOTN

Damn, sorry to hear that. You're missing out.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 21, 2011, 10:06:46 AM
Quote
I want 2.5D Castlevanias and only 2.5Dvanias. I hate 3D games, personally.
Jesus Christ, what.

Games evolve, and should evolve. That mindset is the reason Mega Man is still stuck in 2D without a successful 3D platformer, and currently in game limbo, having slipped from public "careness"
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on November 21, 2011, 10:10:03 AM
When it's the way you're going about it already.

What are you specifically objecting to?  "the way you're going about it" is extremely vague.  Is it our mission statement?  Our images?  Our videos?  Some random comment that was made here, Facebook, or elsewhere?  What was said?  What was the context?  Etc...  The copout is "everything" so let's cut to the chase.  What would you do differently --presuming you agree with the objective?

Quote
Your first post in this thread.

The first post in this thread includes an introduction and 3 separate quoted conversations.  Could you be a little more specific?

Quote
What we want varies from person to person. Some people DO want the LoS games to continue. That right there debunks your statement.

When did we say that we DO NOT want the LoS games to continue?  We have some outspoken LoS fans in our group --because they understand Operation: Akumajo is not about Lords of Shadow, it's about preserving Akumajo Dracula.  Konami has positioned LoS as a reboot *a replacement* to Akumajo Dracula --and we are responding in that context.

Quote
However you are missing the real point of all of this entirely. You can't think of specifically what you, or you perceive others, to want. You need to make a reasonable suggestion and actually back it up with a logical set of reasons why they should even bother. So far, I've seen nothing in the way of this from your organization. It's always been things like "1999DCW OR WE DON'T WANT IT".

It sounds like you believe we shouldn't be asking for anything unless we can present Konami some kind of a market study showing point by point how and why they should make games like Demon Castle War.  What's wrong with telling Konami what we want, and letting them respond with some market study telling us why they can't?

Quote
I don't have time to go through every single bullet point, so I will summarize the idea.

Big media in the industry, such as IGN and others, will not usually publish about groups like this if they're handling it like you do. Take a better look at how other petitions and such have handled their campaigns. Learn how to professionally conduct yourself. Little things like using the organization's title to speak through with your own voice dwindle your professional reputation. I really don't have time to tutor you guys on this. Just study a lot more before you jump head long into it. As much as you may not want to hear it; if you can't seem to fix it just hand the reigns off to someone else. Then again, now you have this stigma already attached to the group's name and it may not be possible to turn the image you've already presented around. As it is, and I know you may disagree but, I don't think you will be accomplishing anything in the long run.

At the end of the day, it's usually the games that make the news --not the fans.  For example --Megaman Legends 3 was a major story when it was first announced, so naturally its cancellation and the resulting fan outrage were a natural follow up on that story.  That publicity was the fuel behind 100,00 Strong.  Majora's Mask would never have come up, if not for the massive media coverage of Ocarina 3DS --and the passive challenge from Zelda series producer, Eiji Aonuma.

Operation Rainfall is the one major exception.  They actually formed on IGN's forums and receivd favorable coverage on the IGN website just a few days after Nintendo announced that Xenoblade Chronicles, The Last Story, and Pandora's Tower would not be localized for North American release.  Although I don't have evidence, one might suspect the editors publishing the story may have had a vested interest in the group.  But even so, the games themselves were still newsworthy.

Considering that Castlevania isn't in the news, how would you have us follow any of these examples.  I know you're talking about the tone of our activism, but what you're not understanding is that these groups have had some very powerful friends carrying their water.  They never really needed to make much noise to draw attention to their causes --the media delivered their message to the masses for them.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: VladCT on November 21, 2011, 10:44:11 AM
Damn, if this keeps up I might have to nominate both uzo and cecil-kain for the Master Debater award. LOL
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Danial on November 21, 2011, 11:15:51 AM
These conversations are the first actions I've seen from Operation Akumajo, and they're a bit childish.  I don't know what else you've done so far, but here the group comes off as sniping fanboys more than an organized effort, and neither Konami or any media outlet will pay attention to you as long as that is the case.

Uzo is correct, if you want to be taken with any amount of seriousness you need to start acting more professional.

You need to decide on a very specific goal.  There's a lot of different things Konami could do for an anniversary, and you have to clearly outline what you're crusading for.  "Not LoS", isn't an adequate answer.

You should only have one mouthpiece.  It's fine for supporters to chime in with ideas, requests, and complaints on a forum or website, but when addressing Konami there should only be one voice. 

It's fine to have a Facebook presence, but if you want to speak with a company on a professional level you're going to have to do it privately.  Very few large companies will discuss their operations at all, they're definitely not going to do it on a public forum.

Leave your ego at home.  It doesn't matter if you hated LoS, insulting Cox and his team isn't going to get you anywhere.  Neither is constantly telling them how you liked Iga or any other previous CV creator better.

Keep the fire burning, but know when to turn down the heat.  We all love Castlevania, but it's ultimately Konami's property to do what they want with.  That doesn't mean you should stop (as long as you're properly run), but it does mean that you'll have to live with what Konami decides. 
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: KaZudra on November 21, 2011, 12:14:28 PM
No, Cox. It really doesn't make sense. Because that means it shouldn't even use the name Castlevania.

basically all he said was, "its a multiverse approach on castlevania, it has no ties to the Original timeline."

Does that make sense?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on November 21, 2011, 12:22:34 PM
Quote
This childish pouting, unwarranted self importance, misguided sense of entitlement, and continually treating Konami like the enemy, is why you guys are struggling to get off the ground. It certainly is keeping myself, and others, from showing hands of support.
Gee...Sounds like certain part of Castlevania fandom in a nutshell.  :rollseyes:

On a more serious note - as of now OA comes as a creation of several fanboys who want things to be their way...or the highway. I don't think that big corporation works on the wishes of the few guys who were insulted with some creative liberty.

If I were Konami staff, I'd just put some bot to answer all your pleas with a gentle "Thank You" from now on and that's it. Well, until OA will not have more substance rather than "some fans pissed of that things changed". It should be something more respectable and mature.

Quote
It sounds like you believe we shouldn't be asking for anything unless we can present Konami some kind of a market study showing point by point how and why they should make games like Demon Castle War.  What's wrong with telling Konami what we want, and letting them respond with some market study telling us why they can't?
LOS creation is the answer to your question. If Castlevania was a "healthy", very popular franchise, that was widely loved everywhere for what it is, not for what it once was, no reboot would be needed ever.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on November 21, 2011, 01:08:17 PM
These conversations are the first actions I've seen from Operation Akumajo, and they're a bit childish.  I don't know what else you've done so far, but here the group comes off as sniping fanboys more than an organized effort, and neither Konami or any media outlet will pay attention to you as long as that is the case.

Uzo is correct, if you want to be taken with any amount of seriousness you need to start acting more professional.

You need to decide on a very specific goal.  There's a lot of different things Konami could do for an anniversary, and you have to clearly outline what you're crusading for.  "Not LoS", isn't an adequate answer.

You should only have one mouthpiece.  It's fine for supporters to chime in with ideas, requests, and complaints on a forum or website, but when addressing Konami there should only be one voice. 

It's fine to have a Facebook presence, but if you want to speak with a company on a professional level you're going to have to do it privately.  Very few large companies will discuss their operations at all, they're definitely not going to do it on a public forum.

Leave your ego at home.  It doesn't matter if you hated LoS, insulting Cox and his team isn't going to get you anywhere.  Neither is constantly telling them how you liked Iga or any other previous CV creator better.

Keep the fire burning, but know when to turn down the heat.  We all love Castlevania, but it's ultimately Konami's property to do what they want with.  That doesn't mean you should stop (as long as you're properly run), but it does mean that you'll have to live with what Konami decides.

The term "professional" is being used a bit loosely in this topic.  I'm still waiting for specific examples of unprofessional actions or comments that I can respond to or perhaps even learn from.  Our goals are ambitious and very clearly outlined in our mission statement.

When it comes to Lords of Shadow, we actually AGREE with David Cox --it is not an Akumajo game --it is a completely separate universe.  Therefore, we cannot accept it as a reboot for the existing Castlevania continuity.  We have no objection whatsoever to seeing LoS continue --what we object to is seeing Akumajo Dracula discontinued.

Aside from any comments relevant to our cause, we're really not that interested in David Cox.  Although we certainly have a great many Igarashi fans within our group, our official position is that he's only needed for the Demon Castle War.

As you can see from the convos quoted in the first post, Operation: Akumajo is posting on Konami's official Castlevania Page on Facebook --so we are, in effect, speaking publicly with one voice.  As for engaging Konami privately --I can tell you that emails have been sent, but no response has been received.  And quite frankly, an official response can't be expected at this point.  In fact, it was a surprise to see Konami engaging us publicly on Facebook --thus the creation of this topic.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: A-Yty on November 21, 2011, 02:57:45 PM
basically all he said was, "its a multiverse approach on castlevania, it has no ties to the Original timeline."

Does that make sense?

That's not all he said. And I think it's up to him to clarify what he said.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: crisis on November 21, 2011, 03:02:49 PM
He's pretty much saying it's a reboot of the series, but completely separate to the series, so much that it could be it's own series.




yup.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Neobelmont on November 21, 2011, 03:28:59 PM
PSP is the reason we dont have other games like DXC.

The PSP never caught on as well as in the US in Japan, at least not as fast. DXC came out 2007. Maverick Hunter X Came out in 06. The PSP was not as widespread in japan as in the US back then. They both suffered a lack of Japanese sales, and thus had no "sequels". If they had been PS2, they might have sold better.

Odd  was not DXC a smash hit or best seller compared to MHX or UGG or something you know the little red line thing on the cover?

Konami was one the right track with the Dracula X Chronicles. Not only does it appeal to the same crowd as Rebirth, but that game also demonstrates what can be achieved when Castlevania is taken seriously. The 2.5-D graphic presentation was gorgeous and refreshing --exactly the sort of treatment needed for Castlevania to compete in the modern market. Although there are a couple nitpicky details (like Rondo’s outdated play-control) the only real problem was that someone at Konami decided DXC wasn’t worthy of the full HD home console treatment. Putting DXC on the PSP was easily one of the worst Castlevania decisions that Konami has ever made. Did they really expect the fanbase to drop their DSs and shell a couple hundred more dollars for Sony’s competing system? Oh well --that’s another discussion altogether...
-------------------------------------------------------


That is what I did heck what can I say psp looked good and DCX sold it.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: C Belmont on November 21, 2011, 04:04:14 PM
Quote
That's not all he said. And I think it's up to him to clarify what he said
Good luck getting him to
Cox doesn't answer questions anymore he prefers to just repeat the tiniest bit of praise LOS receives & make useless comments like "What a horrible night to have a curse..."
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 21, 2011, 05:00:12 PM
When did we say that we DO NOT want the LoS games to continue?
You are presenting the argument of how It isn't a true Castlevania.

Quote
Operation: Akumajo is not about Lords of Shadow, it's about preserving Akumajo Dracula.  Konami has positioned LoS as a reboot *a replacement* to Akumajo Dracula --and we are responding in that context.

Uh huh.

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi732.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww327%2Fcecil-kain%2FCVD-Harmony-of-Despair-is-L.jpg&hash=a326d03e6b5ab38c515eea69e4d104d4)

All I see here is LOS ISNT CASTLEVANIA BRING BACK WHAT WE KNOW

Also its things like that. "Its lazy but at least it's castlevania..." Those hurt your image too. You are rolling over and accepting Konami's shit, to aid your point that it is better than LoS because at least it is the Castlevania you know.

Its along the same vein as the people who are totally Ok with Mega Man X being only a card and DLC skin for Zero in MvC3 after being the top polled character in almost any poll he was in, and with the massive fan demand he had. The people who go "Well it's better than nothing... Be happy with what you got."

You are accepting HD solely on he grounds that it is not LoS. It's a game that even most of the Castlevania fanbase agrees is the laziest copout ever.

"BUT AT LEAST IT'S CASTLEVANIA!" is what you say.

The problem is you hang onto the notion of what Castlevania "should be". Something different for everyone.

Also, consistency. It's "Operation Akumajo", but you talk about Castlevania. Choose one name and stick with it.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Vrakanox on November 21, 2011, 06:09:03 PM
Yeah, the one picture that irks me is the "failure comes in 3 dimensions" and then it shows Curse of Darkness. CoD and LoI have a decent sized fan-base and they are also part of the old canon which is what Akumajo Dracula is trying to preserve.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: TheouAegis on November 21, 2011, 06:26:33 PM
I'm sure the later Metroidvanias have wonderful stories and all, but the gameplay bores me. It's like many RPGs. I used to be an avid RPG player but then I realized one day, most RPGs have crappy gameplay and I'd rather just read a book instead of grinding 7 days a week just to find out what happens next in the story. As I said, I've played LoI, but that's the extent of post-SOTN I've played. The rest... Their plots didn't appeal to me. And LoS's trailers didn't appeal to me. Although I will give Cox and his team credit for an interesting story. I actually read the whole plot summary on Castlevania Wiki and was like, "wow, someone was drunk!"
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 21, 2011, 07:23:29 PM
If you havent played Aria, then you are missing out. It is the true successor to SoTN.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sindra on November 21, 2011, 07:26:44 PM
I'm suprised this is still going, to be honest. And I'm surprised Konami or Cox gave it a response.


Cecil....you are too stuck in your ways to make OA a sizable success. You have dug your heels in regarding your "Mission Statement", and refuse to see that it is very easily seen as accusatory and aggressive towards Konami and those you see as ruining the series. Because they are. You can't see it, but they are.

I have wished you well on the venture, but unless you change how you are addressing the matter at hand (ie: learn to be more cooperative with Konami and less demanding....because they could give two shits about a fanboy crying out to get his way), you are dooming your campaign to ultimate failure.

Learn to be more fluid and learn compromise, or be prepared to lose this battle.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Vrakanox on November 21, 2011, 08:14:54 PM
If you havent played Aria, then you are missing out. It is the true successor to SoTN.

Yeah Aria, and Ecclesia also both great metroidvanias.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on November 21, 2011, 09:30:08 PM
You are presenting the argument of how It isn't a true Castlevania.

Uh huh.

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi732.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww327%2Fcecil-kain%2FCVD-Harmony-of-Despair-is-L.jpg&hash=a326d03e6b5ab38c515eea69e4d104d4)

All I see here is LOS ISNT CASTLEVANIA BRING BACK WHAT WE KNOW

Also its things like that. "Its lazy but at least it's castlevania..." Those hurt your image too. You are rolling over and accepting Konami's shit, to aid your point that it is better than LoS because at least it is the Castlevania you know.

Its along the same vein as the people who are totally Ok with Mega Man X being only a card and DLC skin for Zero in MvC3 after being the top polled character in almost any poll he was in, and with the massive fan demand he had. The people who go "Well it's better than nothing... Be happy with what you got."

You are accepting HD solely on he grounds that it is not LoS. It's a game that even most of the Castlevania fanbase agrees is the laziest copout ever.

"BUT AT LEAST IT'S CASTLEVANIA!" is what you say.

The problem is you hang onto the notion of what Castlevania "should be". Something different for everyone.

Also, consistency. It's "Operation Akumajo", but you talk about Castlevania. Choose one name and stick with it.

It's refreshing to see someone citing an actual example and making a reasonable argument to support their viewpoint.  Thank-you.

I can see the conclusions you're reaching for, but let me say this.

The Castlevania brand has been synonymous with Akumajo Dracula for 25 years.  When I named this group "Akumajo" it was out of reverence for the Japanese origin, but now that Cox has explicitly separated Lords of Shadow from the Akumajo brand, he's played right into our hands.  He said LoS is not an Akumajo game --which is in fact one of our group's core beliefs.  Although his "alternate universe" statements are still somewhat vague, it almost sounds like an endorsement of a multiversal approach instead of the reboot.  Although it would be wonderful to see him make more supportive statements, it's unlikely that he's even remotely in control of Akumajo Dracula's future.  Regardless of Cox's rather intriguing statements, the Castlevania name is still synonymous with Akumajo Dracula in the minds of many (if not most) of  fans...

Back to your main point... 

We had no intention whatsoever to say that Harmony of Despair is remotely superior to Lords of Shadow.  Even with apples and oranges, that's not really a reasonable argument.  The purpose of the piece you're showing here was to highlight the lazy treatment that a legitimate Castlevania/Akumajo game is actually getting --meanwhile Lords of Shadow *obviously* enjoyed the benefits of a serious investment.  If Akumajo games do continue as part of a multiversal approach, there's a very good chance that this sort of favoritism will be an ongoing issue.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Dremn on November 21, 2011, 09:35:00 PM
Been awhile since I logged on here.

Just popping by to say I still need a good Castlevania on the 3DS Konami.

EDIT: Actually now that I read all the hub bub, I have to say you're being awfully immature about this. I think telling them ReBirth wasn't good enough was a low blow. I for one, would welcome more games like that in the series with open arms and an eager wallet.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on November 21, 2011, 10:00:38 PM
I'm suprised this is still going, to be honest. And I'm surprised Konami or Cox gave it a response.


Cecil....you are too stuck in your ways to make OA a sizable success. You have dug your heels in regarding your "Mission Statement", and refuse to see that it is very easily seen as accusatory and aggressive towards Konami and those you see as ruining the series. Because they are. You can't see it, but they are.

I have wished you well on the venture, but unless you change how you are addressing the matter at hand (ie: learn to be more cooperative with Konami and less demanding....because they could give two shits about a fanboy crying out to get his way), you are dooming your campaign to ultimate failure.

Learn to be more fluid and learn compromise, or be prepared to lose this battle.

I have invited members of this forum publicly and privately to assist me in developing this operation from day one.  The Mission statement was written, edited, and approved by only one person, because nobody else really stepped forward to offer any serious support.  Is it any surprise then that some personal biases may have crept in?  I'd be more than happy to negotiate serious concessions in exchange for some real leadership.  I don't mind taking the criticism --especially when I've earned it --but you can't expect BIG changes to be made for people that are pulling daggers instead of offering to help out.

Been awhile since I logged on here.

Just popping by to say I still need a good Castlevania on the 3DS Konami.

EDIT: Actually now that I read all the hub bub, I have to say you're being awfully immature about this. I think telling them ReBirth wasn't good enough was a low blow. I for one, would welcome more games like that in the series with open arms and an eager wallet.

Rebirth was made on the cheap --not as cheaply as Harmony of Deapir, but still...  Konami can and should be doing *much* better.  Settling for less is not consistent with the group's mission.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 21, 2011, 10:24:34 PM
Quote
The Castlevania brand has been synonymous with Akumajo Dracula for 25 years

Yes, but it is inconsistent. Thats like, "100,000 strong for bringing back Rockman Dash 3"

and then proceeding to say how much they love Mega Man Legends 2.

You see what I'm trying to say? stick with one name. Also, try for one that represents what you want. Operation Akumajo is really vague. Its basically just Operation Castlevania. The name alone says nothing to me. Also, you have to understand that In the west, Castlevania is more known than "Akumajo Dracula". The casual gamer who stumbles across the page, might be likely to support Operation: Castlevania, since he knows what that is, other than Akumajo, which he doesnt recognize. It isnt as simple as Rockman and Mega Man, its two completely different titles, and two completely different title styles. While Castlevania has that distinct castle look to it's logo, Akumajo Dracula is written in Japanese.

Either way, It's inconsistent, and not as accessible to gamers who might otherwise support the effort. (Legends fans got support from many other capcom fans who while not particularly fond of Mega man, hated how their fellow Capcom fans were treated.

Quote
Rebirth was made on the cheap --not as cheaply as Harmony of Deapir, but still... 
There's nothing "still" about it. No buts. Rebirth doesnt reuse elements used since rondo, it is pretty much entirely original. if anything I think the bats are the same old ones. It is a completely new game in the vein of Mega Man 9 and 10, and in fact BETTER than in terms of production values. It's supposed to be a nostalgic Classicvania. not a cheap copout.

Quote
Konami can and should be doing *much* better.  Settling for less is not consistent with the group's mission.
And this is what we are talking about. This pretentious talk about how they should be doing better, and how we should all fight for better because YOU think they should be making high end HD Castleania games.

You dont see capcom fans complaiing about not getting Maverick Hunter X2. We accept games like 9 and 10, simply because they were done well, and were a good idea for the moment. We dont go and DEMAND capcom make an HD Mega Man console game.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on November 21, 2011, 11:29:22 PM
Yes, but it is inconsistent. Thats like, "100,000 strong for bringing back Rockman Dash 3"

and then proceeding to say how much they love Mega Man Legends 2.

You see what I'm trying to say? stick with one name. Also, try for one that represents what you want. Operation Akumajo is really vague. Its basically just Operation Castlevania. The name alone says nothing to me. Also, you have to understand that In the west, Castlevania is more known than "Akumajo Dracula". The casual gamer who stumbles across the page, might be likely to support Operation: Castlevania, since he knows what that is, other than Akumajo, which he doesnt recognize. It isnt as simple as Rockman and Mega Man, its two completely different titles, and two completely different title styles. While Castlevania has that distinct castle look to it's logo, Akumajo Dracula is written in Japanese. Either way, It's inconsistent, and not as accessible to gamers who might otherwise support the effort. (Legends fans got support from many other capcom fans who while not particularly fond of Mega man, hated how their fellow Capcom fans were treated.

This issue actually came up past a point of no return.  I was looking at options to modify the group's name, but Facebook wouldn't allow changes to a community name once it surpasses 100 members --so we got caught in this exposure trap where Facebook members doing a "Castlevania" search never find us.

In terms of how the Akumajo and Castlevania names are currently used in the Mission Statement and propaganda --that may actually need some review in light of Cox's latest comments.  Ultimately though, the Castlevania name needs to be used for mainstream recognition --we are in the west after all...

Quote
There's nothing "still" about it. No buts. Rebirth doesnt reuse elements used since rondo, it is pretty much entirely original. if anything I think the bats are the same old ones. It is a completely new game in the vein of Mega Man 9 and 10, and in fact BETTER than in terms of production values. It's supposed to be a nostalgic Classicvania. not a cheap copout.

The problem is that Rebirth was intended to be a cheap retro throwback, instead of a game that raised the bar.  Megaman 9 and 10 had much higher nostalgic value because Megaman Classic was essentially dead series at that point.  Meanwhile 2-D Castlevanias has been stuck on portables devices for over 10 years --with only only DXC outclassing SotN's overall quality.  Putting 2-D Castlevania back on a home console could have and should have been epic, but Konami didn't see it for the opportunity it was.

Quote
And this is what we are talking about. This pretentious talk about how they should be doing better, and how we should all fight for better because YOU think they should be making high end HD Castleania games.

You dont see capcom fans complaiing about not getting Maverick Hunter X2. We accept games like 9 and 10, simply because they were done well, and were a good idea for the moment. We dont go and DEMAND capcom make an HD Mega Man console game.

Castlevania was a high end brand during its prime.  Although I can certainly respect your appreciation of nostalgic games like Megaman 9 and 10, the DXC has proven that Castlevania still has a colossal amount of untapped potential that can compete with other modern 2-D games.  Have you seen the sales for New Super Mario Bros Wii?  It's the second best-selling game on the Wii at over 22 Million sold worldwide.  Nintendo could have gone with a "Rebirth" like some 8-bit Super Mario Bros 4, but instead they decided to make a serious investment --and they ended up outselling both of the Mario Galaxy games combined.  Who would have predicted that?  Is it so far-fetched to believe that a 2.5-D Castlevania effort *might* actually outsell Lords of Shadow?  I have faith that Konami can restore Castlevania, if only they'd think outside the box and make a serious investment.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: KaZudra on November 22, 2011, 03:08:02 AM
The Over-reacting level of this thread is overly ridiculous.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: uzo on November 22, 2011, 10:37:16 AM
It's refreshing to see someone citing an actual example

Sorry, I don't have the time to cite and correct the innumerable amount of examples individually. I gave the shortened umbrella version, which addresses the core issue that all of it stems from.

Others are doing the same, and that makes a lot of sense. It cuts to the chase and focuses on what is causing everything else.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 22, 2011, 04:21:44 PM
This issue actually came up past a point of no return.  I was looking at options to modify the group's name, but Facebook wouldn't allow changes to a community name once it surpasses 100 members --so we got caught in this exposure trap where Facebook members doing a "Castlevania" search never find us.
Make a new thread, and make a big post redirecting visitors to the new one. AKA start over. Start fresh.


Quote
The problem is that Rebirth was intended to be a cheap retro throwback,

There's nothing wrong with that.

Quote
instead of a game that raised the bar.
Why does it have to be? this is what im talking about. You must understand, Brands like Mega Man and Castlevania are in a tough spot these days because they never truly evolved into the third dimension. This can be traced back to the PS1/PS2 era. the few 3D games they made, were either bombs, or recieved poorly, or both. Both mega Man Legends games literally put Capcom in the red financially. So it was a fight to make a Legends 3, and that eventually, even that was cancelled. Mega Man X7 was a bomb because it was not only an unfinished product, but had bad decisions in it. The mixing of 2D and 3D was what pretty much broke the game.

Castlevania 64 was received poorly for basically being an unfinished product, and overshadowed by the superior 2D game released at the same time. LoI and CoD have fans, but they were both rather bland and not quite up to snuff with other games out at the time. In the end, we dont know how Konami sees them financially. They saw that 2D IGAvanias sold best, so they kept making those. Since the hardware evolved past 2D sprites, they moved to handhelds, which still used them. They made DXC. but it bombed because of the platform. So, they kept at 2D sprite based games. Judgement bombed due to the game type and art direction. Recently, they decided to allow Konami Europe work with mercurysteam on making a big budget Castlevania. To try and bring in a new crowd, they decided on a reboot, so you needed no prior knowledge going in.

If that fails, you can be assured that there WONT be another big budget Castlevania ever again for a LOOOONG time.

To tide the older fans over, they also tried to let IGA make HD, as a type I imagine, of experiment, to see how a multiplayer coop Castlevaia game would work in 2D. They also made The Adventure Rebirth, a pretty high quality 2D remake of Castlevania The Adventure, aimed especially at those who enjoyed classicvanias. it was chock full of old and beloved tunes, and not only did it LOOK great, but it played great.

Long story short, this IS their own fault, since they never properly embraced 3D, and stayed with the safe 2D. As a result, Castlevania has become not too profitable anymore. All they can sell are small 2D handheld games, sprite based games. That's pathetic, so they try to do what they can in 2D, experimenting with different things, (Co op, a Wiiware remake that doesnt really follow any particular system restrictions at all and instead tries to look like a classicvania, but with a few modern flavor available through the technology.)

But we have to support their 3D efforts better if we want anything done in HD. we have to prove to them that Castlevania is profitable in 3D/HD consoles. If they become more at ease with making HD and 3D Castlevania, then we will definitely see more things done with the Classic series eventually. Probably starting with remakes if anything.

Quote
Megaman 9 and 10 had much higher nostalgic value because Megaman Classic was essentially dead series at that point.
So were Classicvanias.
Quote
Meanwhile 2-D Castlevanias has been stuck on portables devices for over 10 years
because again, 3D console games have failed or been "meh" at best.

 
Quote
--with only only DXC outclassing SotN's overall quality.
Hardly. If only because it is a 2.5D game. Otherwise, SoTN is still high quality, even today, and still outclasses most 2Dvanias that came after.

Quote
Putting 2-D Castlevania back on a home console could have and should have been epic, but Konami didn't see it for the opportunity it was.
That's pretty ungrateful. You got a 2D classicvania, with pretty good production values, on a home console. That is far more than what we have gotten for a while. You have to give this time. Its a ladder. from 2D remake DL game, to higher fish from there.

Quote
Castlevania was a high end brand during its prime.
So was Mega Man. Mega man is one of the videogame Pioneers. It was the first game to allow players to choose what stage they wanted in whatever order they wanted. It was also high end. Especially once it went to the SNES and PS1.

Quote
Although I can certainly respect your appreciation of nostalgic games like Megaman 9 and 10
Dont get me wrong, i dont particularly LIKE 9 and 10, specifically because they are all about trying to imitate Mega Man 2, the now most overrated mega man game ever.  10 was far more original and did far more than 9 did, but I am right where you are with it- rather than making a new HD game, they make 8 bit rehashware, etc etc. But for the moment, it was not a bad idea. It was a sort of revival of the brand, back in classic, back to classic's roots. The problem comes when they start doing ONLY that. But in this case, there is no way for Fans to try and support 3D mega man, since we dont have something like LoS to support.   

Quote
the DXC has proven that Castlevania still has a colossal amount of untapped potential that can compete with other modern 2-D games.

DXC was still just a 2.5D game on the PSP. It certainly can not compete with something like God of War or Call of Duty or Gears of War. 2D games are dying out, or becoming not as commonplace, relegated to DL status.

Quote
Have you seen the sales for New Super Mario Bros Wii?  It's the second best-selling game on the Wii at over 22 Million sold worldwide.  Nintendo could have gone with a "Rebirth" like some 8-bit Super Mario Bros 4, but instead they decided to make a serious investment --and they ended up outselling both of the Mario Galaxy games combined.  Who would have predicted that?  Is it so far-fetched to believe that a 2.5-D Castlevania effort *might* actually outsell Lords of Shadow?  I have faith that Konami can restore Castlevania, if only they'd think outside the box and make a serious investment.
Nintendo also shits money. They are probably the RICHEST of any game developer.

Did you forget this?

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages4.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20060721101460%2Funcyclopedia%2Fimages%2F0%2F0d%2FPrints_money.gif&hash=5bbf1820635a9714cb8c4e7d09246132)

It's not just a joke. It's practically true. they HAVE the monetary freedom to do whatever they want. Nintendo is also headed up BY an actual former game dev, unlike most.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Vrakanox on November 22, 2011, 06:20:12 PM
But we have to support their 3D efforts better if we want anything done in HD. we have to prove to them that Castlevania is profitable in 3D/HD consoles. If they become more at ease with making HD and 3D Castlevania, then we will definitely see more things done with the Classic series eventually. Probably starting with remakes if anything.

But what if every 3d HD game from here on out is just a continuation of the LoS timeline and the old one disappears forever. Is it still worth supporting then?

I see where you're coming from though, the most important thing is that the series lives on. I'd hate to see Castlevania end up like megaman. Support for the series in general should in theory result in new games on all platforms. But it may or may not end up like that.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on November 22, 2011, 06:35:38 PM
Nintendo indeed puts all of their support behind their titles.  They really really dedicate their assets to their properties, from the low-budget start-ups (anything from the relatively ho-hum "Wii Music" to the very successful "Wii Sports") all the way to their beloved franchises (Super Mario Galaxy is a beautiful game, but so is New Super Mario Bros. Wii and Super Mario 3D Land), and even when they have other parties work on their titles, they give them their full support.  Retro Studios did a fantastic job with Donkey Kong Country Returns.  Capcom did a great job with The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap.  Even when things are not so successful (Team Ninja with Metroid: Other M), they still give them full support.

It's really admirable.

Konami seems to only put their money behind their "Tried-and-true Winner" series (which is only Metal Gear Solid right now, it seems).  I haven't seen them work on Elebits (lower-tier IP,) much.  They pretty much destroyed anything Hudson gave 'em, or did not give it marketing support (Adenture Island: The Beginning).  I was actually surprised at how good Lords of Shadow ended up becoming, but I'm beginning to think that that was more of a Kojima Productions proverbial Muscle support, rather than Konami really giving it support from the beginning.

And yes, I like Lords of Shadow... though I do admit it doesn't feel much like a Castlevania game, sometimes.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 22, 2011, 06:46:54 PM
Yeah. Having KP really helped it out. So did the fact that Mercurysteam was involved. It wasnt just Konami putting money into it. if it was solely a Konami budget, I doubt it would have ended up as "big budget" as it did.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Ahasverus on November 22, 2011, 06:47:20 PM
The Over-reacting level of this thread is overly ridiculous.
This.
At this point we'll (you'll) be considered worse than Sonic fans

CV is successful at konami's eyes now, bad luck for those who wanted to stay in the past, but there's always Megaman, it's the same shit since '85  ;D
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: DarkPrinceAlucard on November 22, 2011, 06:59:15 PM

At this point we'll (you'll) be considered worse than Sonic fans


And what is wrong with Sonic fans exactly?

As a sonic fan myself your line does draw me towards posting towards it.

Sonic fans as of late have been MUCH more pleased with the product (minus Sonic the hedgehog 4).

And its all due to the fact that Sega has actually been LISTENED to what the fans wanted.

Fans wanted Sega to get rid of the lame gimmicks (werehog stages from unleashed) and keep the awesome day time stages from unleashed.

And you know what we got?

Sonic Colors.

And its has by far been one of the most well received Sonic games in a long time.

And for the anniversary of Sonic the hedgehog you know what we got?

A awesome gift in the form of Sonic Generations which gives you the best of the old Sonic and the new Sonic all in one game.

So please do not compare this situation with Castlevania to the FORMER situation that was going on with Sonic. atleast Sega eventually started to listen to the fans and listen to what they wanted. and to top it off they actually gave their fans a anniversary game.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 22, 2011, 08:10:37 PM
The Sonic Fanbase is notorious for hating it's source almost as much as Star Wars fans. Bitching nonstop since Heroes, and generally never agreeing over anything.

Until Colors. And now Generations.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: KaZudra on November 22, 2011, 09:29:30 PM
Personally, though as Bitchy and Immature some of are on Castlevania's Issues...

We can't top how disgustedly Moronically Corrupt Sonic "Fans" are, those people simply cannot accept their classic game plummeting into mediocrity while also acquiring some cool elements along the way (which shows in Generations), they simply Bitch about whatever like SEGA can't experiment with their own fucking game, they should be happy that SEGA still give sonic love and has redeemed himself with Colors and Generations.

Castlevania fans on the other hand, while a certain few Angrier individuals simply cannot comprehend the properties of a reboot, most of the problems with the fans aren't really mediocre games, its actually mediocre subplots introduced so late in the mythos that some of us either unquestionably follow or some of us just raise the bullshit flag.
but what hurting us the most, Konami has been blowing up on one current franchise, Metal Gear Solid, it's almost to the point of butt-sniffing.
Showing no intent to effortly add to the franchise's classic storyline and unwillingly try to expand on the New storyline (with the exception of Cox, who seems to be the ONLY one who cares about CV) it looks like we just suffer from ruined Expectations.


But on a last note, Leave Cox alone, he's the only one who seems to care about castlevania and Lords of Shadow was Awesome, and at LEAST it was a REAL game, what did Konami do?

Pachislot 3, something that looks 99% Recylced and makes CoD Mw3 looks like all new material.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: crisis on November 22, 2011, 10:21:52 PM
i think it's cute how Flame finds a way to shoehorn megaman in any topic

i wanna be like Kamui Zero when i grow up..
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: thernz on November 22, 2011, 10:32:42 PM
why are we caring more about story than gameplay
in a game series that never cared about its story

baby, i just want a game that expands on the design elements and potential of the titles i loved. well, okay, that's dark souls. i think i'm pretty content at the moment then.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on November 22, 2011, 10:46:48 PM
It is precisely because it never cared, that people do care.  It's something which it's lacking, because that which it has, it has lackluster of.
Like any aspect of the game, it's a good idea if it's improved and it certainly wouldn't take away from the game if it did.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: KaZudra on November 22, 2011, 11:05:14 PM
i think it's cute how Flame finds a way to shoehorn megaman in any topic

i wanna be like Kamui Zero when i grow up..

I wanna be like macho man Randy Savage..... But I require LOTS of cocaine.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 22, 2011, 11:11:53 PM
i think it's cute how Flame finds a way to shoehorn megaman in any topic
I try. <3
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on November 23, 2011, 12:40:08 AM
Why does it have to be? this is what im talking about. You must understand, Brands like Mega Man and Castlevania are in a tough spot these days because they never truly evolved into the third dimension. This can be traced back to the PS1/PS2 era. the few 3D games they made, were either bombs, or recieved poorly, or both. Both mega Man Legends games literally put Capcom in the red financially. So it was a fight to make a Legends 3, and that eventually, even that was cancelled. Mega Man X7 was a bomb because it was not only an unfinished product, but had bad decisions in it. The mixing of 2D and 3D was what pretty much broke the game.

Castlevania 64 was received poorly for basically being an unfinished product, and overshadowed by the superior 2D game released at the same time. LoI and CoD have fans, but they were both rather bland and not quite up to snuff with other games out at the time. In the end, we dont know how Konami sees them financially. They saw that 2D IGAvanias sold best, so they kept making those. Since the hardware evolved past 2D sprites, they moved to handhelds, which still used them. They made DXC. but it bombed because of the platform. So, they kept at 2D sprite based games. Judgement bombed due to the game type and art direction. Recently, they decided to allow Konami Europe work with mercurysteam on making a big budget Castlevania. To try and bring in a new crowd, they decided on a reboot, so you needed no prior knowledge going in.

If that fails, you can be assured that there WONT be another big budget Castlevania ever again for a LOOOONG time.

To tide the older fans over, they also tried to let IGA make HD, as a type I imagine, of experiment, to see how a multiplayer coop Castlevaia game would work in 2D. They also made The Adventure Rebirth, a pretty high quality 2D remake of Castlevania The Adventure, aimed especially at those who enjoyed classicvanias. it was chock full of old and beloved tunes, and not only did it LOOK great, but it played great.

Long story short, this IS their own fault, since they never properly embraced 3D, and stayed with the safe 2D. As a result, Castlevania has become not too profitable anymore. All they can sell are small 2D handheld games, sprite based games. That's pathetic, so they try to do what they can in 2D, experimenting with different things, (Co op, a Wiiware remake that doesnt really follow any particular system restrictions at all and instead tries to look like a classicvania, but with a few modern flavor available through the technology.)

But we have to support their 3D efforts better if we want anything done in HD. we have to prove to them that Castlevania is profitable in 3D/HD consoles. If they become more at ease with making HD and 3D Castlevania, then we will definitely see more things done with the Classic series eventually. Probably starting with remakes if anything.

So were Classicvanias.because again, 3D console games have failed or been "meh" at best.

 Hardly. If only because it is a 2.5D game. Otherwise, SoTN is still high quality, even today, and still outclasses most 2Dvanias that came after.
That's pretty ungrateful. You got a 2D classicvania, with pretty good production values, on a home console. That is far more than what we have gotten for a while. You have to give this time. Its a ladder. from 2D remake DL game, to higher fish from there.
So was Mega Man. Mega man is one of the videogame Pioneers. It was the first game to allow players to choose what stage they wanted in whatever order they wanted. It was also high end. Especially once it went to the SNES and PS1.
Dont get me wrong, i dont particularly LIKE 9 and 10, specifically because they are all about trying to imitate Mega Man 2, the now most overrated mega man game ever.  10 was far more original and did far more than 9 did, but I am right where you are with it- rather than making a new HD game, they make 8 bit rehashware, etc etc. But for the moment, it was not a bad idea. It was a sort of revival of the brand, back in classic, back to classic's roots. The problem comes when they start doing ONLY that. But in this case, there is no way for Fans to try and support 3D mega man, since we dont have something like LoS to support.   
 
DXC was still just a 2.5D game on the PSP. It certainly can not compete with something like God of War or Call of Duty or Gears of War. 2D games are dying out, or becoming not as commonplace, relegated to DL status.
Nintendo also shits money. They are probably the RICHEST of any game developer.

Did you forget this?

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages4.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20060721101460%2Funcyclopedia%2Fimages%2F0%2F0d%2FPrints_money.gif&hash=5bbf1820635a9714cb8c4e7d09246132)

It's not just a joke. It's practically true. they HAVE the monetary freedom to do whatever they want. Nintendo is also headed up BY an actual former game dev, unlike most.

I actually agree with quite a few of the points that you're making here, but there's one key viewpoint we seem to disagree on.  Can you explain *why* brands like Castlevania and Megaman *must* evolve into the 3rd dimention?  Can you explain *why* 2-D Castlevanias migrated onto portables instead of using the power of home console hardware to reach their full potential?  Can you explain *why* the 2-D fans should continue supporting 3-D games, instead of demanding a serious 2-D investment for home consoles?  This really is the 3-D bias at its best --and it's the biggest challenge Operation: Akumajo is really up against.

For over 15 years, this industry has had a pervasive bias against the 2-D artform --believing it was too "old-fashioned" to sell in market dominated by trendy consumers.  I cited the sales of New Super Mario Bros Wii, specifically to call that bias out into the open.  The era of "making the leap" has long passed --it's just not fashionable or trendy anymore.  Now that 3-D games have completely flooded the market, consumers are open to a 2-D renaissance.

To say that 2-D is dead, when a game like New Super Mario Bros Wii sells over 22 million copies, is disingenuous at best.  As of right now that figure beats the entire God of War series --with its 17.57 million hard copies sold, respectively.  Feel free to verify the numbers gamrreview.vgchartz.com  And yes, Nintendo does shit money --if you sold a game as successful as NSMBW, you would too!  :-D

The whole point of my Rebirth critique was that Konami *chose* to continue embracing all the stagnation we've seen since SotN.  There was no serious investment to make the most of the hardware --and likewise, hardly any interest in pushing the game to reach its fullest potential.  It would have made just as much sense to put Rebirth out on the DS.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Foffy on November 23, 2011, 01:16:26 AM
Megaman, it's the same shit since '85  ;D

I think you mean '87, or is that some type of potshot implying the games need to enter a time paradox to never be conceived.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 23, 2011, 10:06:52 AM
Quote
Can you explain *why* brands like Castlevania and Megaman *must* evolve into the 3rd dimention?

Have you seen any quality high end mega man or Castlevania games in the vein of what fans want? (LoS aside) Have you seen anything better than 2D games? anything wiyh higher quality? have yo seen how unprofitable the brands have become?

Thats why. This isnt 1991. It's 2011. Soon to be 2012. The technology is there. Technology has EVOLVED past 2D. It has evolved past the "bit" wars. There is amazing Technology available for games, to do things that was never possible before. We have to embrace that. Metroid embraced the third dimension with Metroid Prime, and for it's time it was amazing. It took the formula of 2D Metroid, and successfully upgraded it to take advantage of the current technology. So did Mario. So did Zelda. Those franchises are now part of public consciousness. They are veterans that have survived their eras and are still around. Mega Man never successfully transitioned it's formula to the third dimension. While all it's fellow games updated to 3D, Mega Man stayed 2D. It's 3D games never sold too well or were received blandly. Look where it is now.

Castlevania never fully embraced the 3rd Dimension successfully either. it's first attempt was poorly received, and it didnt try again until the PS2 era, and those were also received blandly.

when the 2D entries in a series sell better than 3D, the series doesnt fully embrace change, and modern technology.  And as the 2D sprite based game is dying out, being replaced by newer technology, those games too, find themselves in a pinch, because the crutch they have held onto to continue, is no longer too viable.
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For over 15 years, this industry has had a pervasive bias against the 2-D artform --believing it was too "old-fashioned" to sell in market dominated by trendy consumers.  I cited the sales of New Super Mario Bros Wii, specifically to call that bias out into the open.   
its not a bias. it's called progress. Why make a game with lesser technology when you can push the envelope? I dont get you. You are all about HD high quality Castlevanias, but then you go and say something like this. Castlevanoia can NOT stay 2D forever, or it WILL die.

Again, Nintendo has the monetary freedom to do whatever the fuck they want. and Mario is a franchise that has been incredibly successful, if not the MOST successful. It has had many 3D games, all of which have sold well. so they decided to do what Mega man did. A retro revival. but in full HD 2D. but dont forget they OWN the system it's on. SO there's no licensing fees, no nothing/. they own the franchise, they own the system.

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The era of "making the leap" has long passed --it's just not fashionable or trendy anymore.
Since when? It never will pass. It is always about who has the better console.
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Now that 3-D games have completely flooded the market, consumers are open to a 2-D renaissance.
You expect too much.

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The whole point of my Rebirth critique was that Konami *chose* to continue embracing all the stagnation we've seen since SotN.
Stagnation... Do tell, what about it is stagnant? I see brand new sprites, brand new areas, original ideas, and they didnt reuse the same spritres since Rondo. The reuse was so minimal you dont notice it. That's not stagnation. It's progress. It's a PSX quality game, with bright colors and a great soundtrack, on a home console. You should be practically worshipping this game as a step in the right direction.

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There was no serious investment to make the most of the hardware
It makes pretty good use of the hardware. Or do you dislike it because it doesnt have polygons?
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and likewise, hardly any interest in pushing the game to reach its fullest potential.  It would have made just as much sense to put Rebirth out on the DS.
But they didnt put it on the DS. they put it on the Wii.  That's what matters.

Jesus you are so damn pretentious. You expect Konami to cater exclusively to YOUR tastes. That is all i get from Operation Akumajo. It isnt some big fan movement, It's you voicing YOUR opinions on what YOU think Konami should be doing for YOU, because YOU didnt like Lords of Shadow.

You have forgotten that Konami needs to make money too. They are a business. They make decisions that will make them money. If they see the brand isnt as profitable, they take less risks. If they think it will be profitable, they make bigger risks. (Lords of Shadow)
 

I want you to tell my why YOU think Konami should do the things you are suggesting. WHAT exactly would you suggest Konami do? and WHY should they do it? Humor me here. and remember they are a business and need to make a profit.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: A-Yty on November 23, 2011, 10:50:29 AM
I'm not one to say Castlevania can only work in 2D, but saying that 3D is inevitable progress is kind of like how they thought photography would make painting obsolete.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Kusanagi on November 23, 2011, 11:18:09 AM
Have you seen any quality high end mega man or Castlevania games in the vein of what fans want? (LoS aside) Have you seen anything better than 2D games? anything wiyh higher quality? have yo seen how unprofitable the brands have become?

...

Thats why. This isnt 1991. It's 2011. Soon to be 2012. The technology is there. Technology has EVOLVED past 2D. It has evolved past the "bit" wars. There is amazing Technology available for games, to do things that was never possible before. We have to embrace that. Metroid embraced the third dimension with Metroid Prime, and for it's time it was amazing. It took the formula of 2D Metroid, and successfully upgraded it to take advantage of the current technology. So did Mario. So did Zelda. Those franchises are now part of public consciousness. They are veterans that have survived their eras and are still around. Mega Man never successfully transitioned it's formula to the third dimension. While all it's fellow games updated to 3D, Mega Man stayed 2D. It's 3D games never sold too well or were received blandly. Look where it is now.

...
 You are all about HD high quality Castlevanias, but then you go and say something like this. Castlevanoia can NOT stay 2D forever, or it WILL die.

Ok, now I don't mind the "progress" to 3D, but one thing that should still be appreciated is 2D games and 2D artwork. Most consumers/game companies now-a-days seem more concerned for looks over actual gameplay, that's pretty much why I gave up gaming for a while (and for that reason among others is why Keiji Inafune left capcom). Just because a game is 3D doesn't make it any better than a 2D game.

Take a look at Rayman Origins for example, the game looks beautiful and plays amazingly. Castlevania Harmony of Despair, despite it not matching every persons tastes, I still find a blast to play. Street Fighter 2 HD remix, they could have simply made it 3D and be done with it, but they choose 2D HD sprites. 2D visuals can still be breathtaking, and that's also pushing the limits of the system but in a different direction. Given two out of the three I've mentioned were DL titles, but sticking strictly with the 3D base doesn't always guarantee success, nor does sticking with just 2D. The whole package must deliver (in order of importance in my opinion):
1) Game play
2) Content and re-playability
3) Visuals/Story

When a company's first thought is only profit, us gamers won't feel the dedication or hard work put into the game (Which for some franchises, can easily be seen).Whether that presentation is in 2D or 3D it doesn't matter. If the whole package can deliver a fun and entertaining experience, that will sell the game better. Symphony of the Night for example has always been held as one of the greatest Castlevania's of all time, first on the PS1, then was ported to the PSP, PS3, and the XBox 360. Many people still play this game to this day, mostly because the whole package was amazing. The attention to detail, gameplay, incorporation of both 2D and 3D elements, the story, even the cheesy original voice actors; all of that contributed to making that amazing game. To be fair, I'll also look at Lords of Shadow; fun gameplay (though a little like GoW, which isn't bad), interesting story line (from what I had seen at least), and great visuals. The only difference is that it's supposedly rebooting the original series, and that part isn't swinging too well with the fanbase.

Im not going to argue that Castlevania should stay away from 3D entirely (I also enjoyed Lord's of Shadow for what it's worth), but 2D games still have their pull and their appealing points. I personally don't believe the 2D games will die, maybe in the industry (and that's a pretty big maybe), but certainly not from those who appreciate the art style. If done right, 2D games can still sell well alongside their 3D counterparts, only issue is as you said: "If they see the brand isnt as profitable, they take less risks. If they think it will be profitable, they make bigger risks". It's a risk to stay just in 3D, all the same to stay just in 2D. That is, if visuals/profit is all they care about.

They only need place the time and effort towards making a game - as a whole - be an enjoyable and fun experience. If they can do that, regardless of 2D or 3D, I can buy into that game. And Im pretty certain a good amount of other people can as well.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on November 23, 2011, 11:31:05 AM
Have you seen any quality high end mega man or Castlevania games in the vein of what fans want? (LoS aside) Have you seen anything better than 2D games? anything wiyh higher quality? have yo seen how unprofitable the brands have become?

Thats why. This isnt 1991. It's 2011. Soon to be 2012. The technology is there. Technology has EVOLVED past 2D. It has evolved past the "bit" wars. There is amazing Technology available for games, to do things that was never possible before. We have to embrace that. Metroid embraced the third dimension with Metroid Prime, and for it's time it was amazing. It took the formula of 2D Metroid, and successfully upgraded it to take advantage of the current technology. So did Mario. So did Zelda. Those franchises are now part of public consciousness. They are veterans that have survived their eras and are still around. Mega Man never successfully transitioned it's formula to the third dimension. While all it's fellow games updated to 3D, Mega Man stayed 2D. It's 3D games never sold too well or were received blandly. Look where it is now.

Castlevania never fully embraced the 3rd Dimension successfully either. it's first attempt was poorly received, and it didnt try again until the PS2 era, and those were also received blandly.


I'm not disputing your analysis about games that have struggled with their 3-D transitions --that's not the issue.  I was probing you for bias.  So to answer my question, you believe hi-end technologies are just too powerful to be wasted on lowly 2-D gameplay, because 3-D equals progress and is therefore superior by default --am I correct?

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when the 2D entries in a series sell better than 3D, the series doesnt fully embrace change, and modern technology.  And as the 2D sprite based game is dying out, being replaced by newer technology, those games too, find themselves in a pinch, because the crutch they have held onto to continue, is no longer too viable.

Super Mario 64 practically invented the 3-D platformer, and yet we still have the 22 million sold by New Super Mario Bros Wii.  And I should have clarified earlier 2-D gameplay is the issue --I'm not talking strictly about sprites.  And I don't really mean to harp on NSWBW as much as I am --that just happens to be the best example.  We could just as easily talk about the Paper Mario games, Sonic Generations, Donkey Kong Country Returns, or Little Big Planet --and the list goes on...

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its not a bias. it's called progress. Why make a game with lesser technology when you can push the envelope? I dont get you. You are all about HD high quality Castlevanias, but then you go and say something like this. Castlevanoia can NOT stay 2D forever, or it WILL die.

2-D gameplay is an artform.  Do we stop painting just because we can sculpt?  You talk about progress --since when is it progress to abandon an art?

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Again, Nintendo has the monetary freedom to do whatever the fuck they want. and Mario is a franchise that has been incredibly successful, if not the MOST successful. It has had many 3D games, all of which have sold well. so they decided to do what Mega man did. A retro revival. but in full HD 2D. but dont forget they OWN the system it's on. SO there's no licensing fees, no nothing/. they own the franchise, they own the system.

All true.  Nintendo reached the pinnacle of success, because they understood that leaders of industry don't follow trends set by the market --leaders of industry set trends for the market to follow.  Konami could become just as successful as Nintendo, if they had a little more vision and a lot more ambition.

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Since when? It never will pass. It is always about who has the better console.You expect too much.

"Making the leap" was fashionable when it was new.  Remember this is a trendy industry, and there's certainly nothing new about Konami trying to make Castlevania work in 3-D.

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Stagnation... Do tell, what about it is stagnant? I see brand new sprites, brand new areas, original ideas, and they didnt reuse the same spritres since Rondo. The reuse was so minimal you dont notice it. That's not stagnation. It's progress. It's a PSX quality game, with bright colors and a great soundtrack, on a home console. You should be practically worshipping this game as a step in the right direction.

The ambition is stagnant.  You've sang a few legitimate praises that I actually agree with, but Rebirth was intended to be a 16-bit/PSX quality game --just like we've been playing on handhelds for the past 10 years.  How can you call that progress?

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It makes pretty good use of the hardware. Or do you dislike it because it doesnt have polygons?But they didnt put it on the DS. they put it on the Wii.  That's what matters.

Never said I didn't like Rebirth, I can point out the flaws and enjoy it all the same.  I've been too busy explaining and defending my critique  to give credit where credit is due --but you've covered the merits quite nicely.  I'll go on to say though that the stage designs are amongst the best of the classicvania style.

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Jesus you are so damn pretentious. You expect Konami to cater exclusively to YOUR tastes. That is all i get from Operation Akumajo. It isnt some big fan movement, It's you voicing YOUR opinions on what YOU think Konami should be doing for YOU, because YOU didnt like Lords of Shadow.

I understand you're offended and you're trying to personalize this.  But the fact is that 90% Operation: Akumajo's mission statement was inspired by poll results taken on this very forum.  And like I mentioned in an earlier post, I was looking for help putting this operation together from day one.  You can't expect one person to do all the work and get flawless results.  By the way, Operation: Akumajo currently has 278 other members, presumably because they agree with the mission statement.  And I'm glad you brought up Lords of Shadow again.  Since so many critics aren't paying any attention whatsoever --I'll post the first paragraph of the Mission Statement right here.

-----------------------------------------------------

We are an activist community dedicated to preserving the heart and soul of Castlevania as we have known it for 25 years. We fully embrace the legacy of 2-D action-platforming, as well as the legendary rivalry between Count Dracula and the Belmont Clan. We have named ourselves "Akumajo" in honor of Castlevania's Japanese origins, but also as a counterpoint to Konami's recent attempt to reboot and westernize the Castlevania brand. Although we accept Lords of Shadow as a fine game on its own merits, we cannot accept the desecration it brings to the Akumajo mythology. Therefore, we reject the game as a reboot, and encourage Konami to reposition it as a separate universe that can coexist with a continuing line of Akumajo Dracula games.

------------------------------------------------------

As for hating Lords of Shadow, feel free to check my PSN profile.

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You have forgotten that Konami needs to make money too. They are a business. They make decisions that will make them money. If they see the brand isnt as profitable, they take less risks. If they think it will be profitable, they make bigger risks. (Lords of Shadow)

Pushing mediocre 3-D games over and over was more than risky --it was reckless and I daresay damaging.  Lords of Shadow was definitely an Ace in the hole.

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Its groups like you that are keeping Castlevania where it is, and CAUSING this stagnation.

Respectfully disagree.  Castlevania's been stagnating for a decade, we've only been around a few months.  Are there any other groups like Operation: Akumajo?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: thernz on November 23, 2011, 12:11:24 PM
It is precisely because it never cared, that people do care.  It's something which it's lacking, because that which it has, it has lackluster of.
Like any aspect of the game, it's a good idea if it's improved and it certainly wouldn't take away from the game if it did.
i personally never saw the absence of story in the games as a big detriment, because there was nothing to rely on that story. so i see the story complaint about not fixing a problem, but a necessarily big expansion when in the recent years, the gameplay has started to suffer. this is why i think we should still be emphasizing gameplay over story.

though concerning story:

i think the problem herein lies in the fact that castlevania is more about a lone warrior taking on a castle of monsters, which doesn't provide much narrative freedom, besides more subtle things like item descriptions or action like super metroid. because of that, i don't think a "good" story is really something castlevania needs, but rather a better incorporation of story or storytelling into the game. a well-written story is superfluous in the context of castlevania.

for example, in something like demon's souls, things are rather implied by names, descriptions, and casual npc dialogue while lords depends on large amounts of narration and cutscenes. despite souls' more simplistic story, it still has the better one by virtue of combining storytelling and gameplay. plus souls still creates an uneasiness and distrust that's a tangent to the isolation felt in castlevania.

that and i don't trust people's standards for what good stories are. a lot of game stories are pretty stupid!
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Kusanagi on November 23, 2011, 01:06:41 PM
i personally never saw the absence of story in the games as a big detriment, because there was nothing to rely on that story. so i see the story complaint about not fixing a problem, but a necessarily big expansion when in the recent years, the gameplay has started to suffer. this is why i think we should still be emphasizing gameplay over story.

though concerning story:

i think the problem herein lies in the fact that castlevania is more about a lone warrior taking on a castle of monsters, which doesn't provide much narrative freedom, besides more subtle things like item descriptions or action like super metroid. because of that, i don't think a "good" story is really something castlevania needs, but rather a better incorporation of story or storytelling into the game. a well-written story is superfluous in the context of castlevania.

for example, in something like demon's souls, things are rather implied by names, descriptions, and casual npc dialogue while lords depends on large amounts of narration and cutscenes. despite souls' more simplistic story, it still has the better one by virtue of combining storytelling and gameplay. plus souls still creates an uneasiness and distrust that's a tangent to the isolation felt in castlevania.

that and i don't trust people's standards for what good stories are. a lot of game stories are pretty stupid!
I can much agree that the gameplay should be prioritized over the story, though as Jorge said the story telling could be better built upon. Certainly wouldn't hurt, but even if the story was bad, as long as the gameplay doesn't suffer I'd say the game would still be alright. Unless the cutscenes are unskippable and a whole bunch of loading times, then that would be bad.

It is precisely because it never cared, that people do care.  It's something which it's lacking, because that which it has, it has lackluster of.
Oh right, this quote right here is Alucard worthy. I can already imagine the cheesy voice actor of the original Symphony of the Night reading this line  :P (though that may be in part because of Jorge's avatar, but anyways).

Edit: Although, Alucard's original voice actor is a whole lot better than the PSP remake version. And personally Alucard's original voice is just as epic as it could get; the voice actor just fit him very well.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: DarkPrinceAlucard on November 23, 2011, 01:20:08 PM
The Sonic Fanbase is notorious for hating it's source almost as much as Star Wars fans. Bitching nonstop since Heroes, and generally never agreeing over anything.

Until Colors. And now Generations.

Hence the reasons why I said FORMER situation.

You guys are talking as if the Sonic fanbase is still the majorly bitchy fanbase it ONCE was which is not true.

Its not 100% perfect now by any means but it has calmed down quite bit and is pretty pleased with the current product (Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations).

And you know why?

Because Sega actually LISTENED to what the fanbase wanted.

If Konami actually LISTENED to the fans we would have had the battle of 1999 AGES ago.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 23, 2011, 08:58:41 PM
I'm really just tired of this discussion... I wont go any further. Ive said what I had to say, I'm gonna withdraw from this now.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: KaZudra on November 24, 2011, 07:21:24 PM
Just got done playing Mario 3d Land, and I have to say....

Super Mario Land 3d was a 3d game developed like a 2D game, the end result?

An amazing 3D game that uses a fixed camera to it's full potential.

Why is this relevent? Just Swap Mario with Castlevania and you'll have the BEST AROUND! NOTHING'S EVER GONNA TAKE IT DOWN!
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Kusanagi on November 24, 2011, 09:40:36 PM
Just got done playing Mario 3d Land, and I have to say....

Super Mario Land 3d was a 3d game developed like a 2D game, the end result?

An amazing 3D game that uses a fixed camera to it's full potential.

Why is this relevent? Just Swap Mario with Castlevania and you'll have the BEST AROUND! NOTHING'S EVER GONNA TAKE IT DOWN!
Yeah, 2.5 graphics for the win  ;D

Although, I hope for the next castlevania game to follow this trend, that they make it run a little faster. The rondo of blood remake I found was slower than the original, and because of that I preferred the original (among other reasons)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Maedhros on November 25, 2011, 11:38:07 AM
Have you seen any quality high end mega man or Castlevania games in the vein of what fans want? (LoS aside) Have you seen anything better than 2D games? anything wiyh higher quality? have yo seen how unprofitable the brands have become?

Thats why. This isnt 1991. It's 2011. Soon to be 2012. The technology is there. Technology has EVOLVED past 2D. It has evolved past the "bit" wars. There is amazing Technology available for games, to do things that was never possible before. We have to embrace that. Metroid embraced the third dimension with Metroid Prime, and for it's time it was amazing.

I find Metroid Prime pretty fucking boring. I can't even finish the game because I get bored after some time. The DS one just cemented my oppinion.

I want 2D Metroid back. Some series just don't translate well for 3D without changing a lot of what made them good in the first place. I think Castlevania is a good example of this.

2D isn't dead. With the same technology you're talking about, they could make a 2D game with 3D/Stylized assets (what you guys call 2.5D). We have a LOT of examples like this, just this year.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on November 25, 2011, 02:07:13 PM
Just got done playing Mario 3d Land, and I have to say....

Super Mario Land 3d was a 3d game developed like a 2D game, the end result?

An amazing 3D game that uses a fixed camera to it's full potential.

Why is this relevent? Just Swap Mario with Castlevania and you'll have the BEST AROUND! NOTHING'S EVER GONNA TAKE IT DOWN!
I think Mario is a great example that you dont' need to abandon "what's good" or iconic about a classic series just to appeal to a new fanbase. Sure, there IS a difference between 2D and 3D gameplay, but with Mario, Nintendo basically goes the route I, personally, believe is the best way to approach new games: "Take everything good about the older games, keep it, don't fix what isn't broke, fix what IS and introduce new things to keep it fresh!". Even if you soley pick a side, like, say, music, the style of music in the Mario games haven't really changed much either. You still have that very light-hearted styled music, mixed with some ragtime-inspired and early 20th century styled music. When I think of Mario, musically, I think of THAT "type" of music, and it's stood the test of time(despite being, even in the 80s, our of pop cultural relevance for MANY decades). With Mario, he doesn't approach things like other games. It's almost like the whole, "Be true to yourself" mantra, which we are taught as kids, that you should always be who you are, even if other people don't think you'r cool, and you shouldn't try to be who you aren't just to be accepted(and they hand a mess load of afterschool specials about that type of thing). That's Mario, doing what he's been doing since the 80s, and people LOVE him for that. Other franchises are basically the opposite. They are trying to appeal to new tastes by addopting new styles. Sometimes it works, but in a lot of cases, it just doesn't feel right. It's almost pathetic in the way it would be if you saw Wayne Newton trying to appeal to Lady Gaga fans, or your grandpa trying to force his way into a mosh pit. It's like those old people trying to hold on to their strands of youth by showing kids that they are hip and cool(like mothers who try to be friends with their daughters and friends, and go out to malls, listen to Justin Beiber and read every Twilight book). Sometimes it just looks pathetic. It's the case of, "We like you for who you are, not who you try to be!".  :)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Dark Nemesis on November 25, 2011, 02:12:30 PM
I think Mario is a great example that you dont' need to abandon "what's good" or iconic about a classic series just to appeal to a new fanbase. Sure, there IS a difference between 2D and 3D gameplay, but with Mario, Nintendo basically goes the route I, personally, believe is the best way to approach new games: "Take everything good about the older games, keep it, don't fix what isn't broke, fix what IS and introduce new things to keep it fresh!". Even if you soley pick a side, like, say, music, the style of music in the Mario games haven't really changed much either. You still have that very light-hearted styled music, mixed with some ragtime-inspired and early 20th century styled music. When I think of Mario, musically, I think of THAT "type" of music, and it's stood the test of time(despite being, even in the 80s, our of pop cultural relevance for MANY decades). With Mario, he doesn't approach things like other games. It's almost like the whole, "Be true to yourself" mantra, which we are taught as kids, that you should always be who you are, even if other people don't think you'r cool, and you shouldn't try to be who you aren't just to be accepted(and they hand a mess load of afterschool specials about that type of thing). That's Mario, doing what he's been doing since the 80s, and people LOVE him for that. Other franchises are basically the opposite. They are trying to appeal to new tastes by addopting new styles. Sometimes it works, but in a lot of cases, it just doesn't feel right. It's almost pathetic in the way it would be if you saw Wayne Newton trying to appeal to Lady Gaga fans, or your grandpa trying to force his way into a mosh pit. It's like those old people trying to hold on to their strands of youth by showing kids that they are hip and cool(like mothers who try to be friends with their daughters and friends, and go out to malls, listen to Justin Beiber and read every Twilight book). Sometimes it just looks pathetic. It's the case of, "We like you for who you are, not who you try to be!".  :)

You have a strong point here mate. I too believe in most of what you are saying, but casual gamers, won't agree with what you, me and everyone else old school gamers think..........
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 25, 2011, 05:32:01 PM
You people keep forgetting how much money Nintendo has, and that they can pretty much allot as much as they need to their projects.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: C Belmont on November 25, 2011, 06:24:59 PM
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You people keep forgetting how much money Nintendo has, and that they can pretty much allot as much as they need to their projects.
Money has very little to do with with a video games appeal, nobody is paying Nintendo customers to buy each new Mario game that they release & you could add the shiniest new graphics & latest innovations to any game and still have nobody care.

Also how come you don't seem to apply this kind of thinking to Capcom?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 25, 2011, 06:42:16 PM
Because Capcom isnt Nintendo. Nintendo is as rich as they are because they are good at what they do. They stick with the likes of Mario, Metroid, LoZ, and usually do interesting things with them.

But they also make consoles. They make consoles and have made famous best selling consoles since back in the day. That has made them rich. They used to have the monopoly on the games market too. it was NES or bust. And people who had the NES, would usually go for the nintendo console over say, the Sega Console. NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube Wii, Gameboy, Gameboy Color, Gameboy Advance, DS... all of those made Nintendo fucktons of money. And Since its their console, theres no licensing fees involved in putting games out on their own systems. And they have release a bunch of games on those consoles.

No other Gaming company today, has had the ridiculous success that Nintendo has had. That success has left Nintendo filthy rich.

Also, Capcom? All theyve been doing lately is releasing new versions of Street fighter, or mucking up their other franchises and pissing off their fanbase.

Nintendo on the other hand, knows how to appease their fanbase. mainly because they know that they will make money by doing what they do. They dont really have to worry too much about if  agame might not be profitable. They KNOW if it has Mario, Link, Pokeymanz, or Samus, or any other of their more profitable characters, it will sell. And therefore, they arent afraid to do different things. To make that Super Mario Galaxy, to make that Skyward Sword.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: crisis on November 25, 2011, 06:47:16 PM
There is also nintendogs+cats
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on November 26, 2011, 01:18:21 AM
Because Capcom isnt Nintendo. Nintendo is as rich as they are because they are good at what they do. They stick with the likes of Mario, Metroid, LoZ, and usually do interesting things with them.

But they also make consoles. They make consoles and have made famous best selling consoles since back in the day. That has made them rich. They used to have the monopoly on the games market too. it was NES or bust. And people who had the NES, would usually go for the nintendo console over say, the Sega Console. NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube Wii, Gameboy, Gameboy Color, Gameboy Advance, DS... all of those made Nintendo fucktons of money. And Since its their console, theres no licensing fees involved in putting games out on their own systems. And they have release a bunch of games on those consoles.

No other Gaming company today, has had the ridiculous success that Nintendo has had. That success has left Nintendo filthy rich.

Also, Capcom? All theyve been doing lately is releasing new versions of Street fighter, or mucking up their other franchises and pissing off their fanbase.

Nintendo on the other hand, knows how to appease their fanbase. mainly because they know that they will make money by doing what they do. They dont really have to worry too much about if  agame might not be profitable. They KNOW if it has Mario, Link, Pokeymanz, or Samus, or any other of their more profitable characters, it will sell. And therefore, they arent afraid to do different things. To make that Super Mario Galaxy, to make that Skyward Sword.

Nobody here is challenging your points about Nintendo being wealthy and advantaged, but you need to remember that even the Big N had to start somewhere.  There was a time during the Atari era, when the market became so saturated with shovelware --that the entire industry came crashing down.  Nintendo was one of the few companies to survive, and it wasn't because the were wealthy or advantaged at that time --it was because they never stopped investing in quality.  Experts and analyists were saying it was Game Over.  But when the NES launched, Nintendo enforced extremely high quality standards on their licensees to help repair the damage.  Anyone remember this?

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi732.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww327%2Fcecil-kain%2Fsealqual_cs_0315.jpg&hash=14ca8478b7abe1dc13e6d712d1c6eb1f)

Nintendo saved the whole industry --and they did by holding themselves and their business partners to a higher standard.  The resulting renaissance not only gave birth to Super Mario, Zelda, and Metroid --but also Megaman and Castlevania itself...  Money isn't everything --enforcing quality mitigates risk --and that's a lesson both Capcom and Konami need to study.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: crisis on November 26, 2011, 08:45:15 AM
I can't believe Nintendo started off as a playing card company in 1889... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Nintendo)


It
s almost as if they were preordained "by a higher power" to rule.. hence their company name. kind of weird if you think about it..
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: X on November 26, 2011, 12:01:57 PM
Quote
I can't believe Nintendo started off as a playing card company in 1889...

This was news to me not too long ago. And since they had such an early start you can imagine the amount of funds they've accumulated over the past century.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 26, 2011, 01:00:00 PM
Weren't they also a Love Hotel and Taxi service at one point?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Kusanagi on November 26, 2011, 01:07:36 PM
Nobody here is challenging your points about Nintendo being wealthy and advantaged, but you need to remember that even the Big N had to start somewhere.  There was a time during the Atari era, when the market became so saturated with shovelware --that the entire industry came crashing down.  Nintendo was one of the few companies to survive, and it wasn't because the were wealthy or advantaged at that time --it was because they never stopped investing in quality.  Experts and analyists were saying it was Game Over.  But when the NES launched, Nintendo enforced extremely high quality standards on their licensees to help repair the damage.  Anyone remember this?

Nintendo saved the whole industry --and they did by holding themselves and their business partners to a higher standard.  The resulting renaissance not only gave birth to Super Mario, Zelda, and Metroid --but also Megaman and Castlevania itself...  Money isn't everything --enforcing quality mitigates risk --and that's a lesson both Capcom and Konami need to study.
Very good points right there. What I find with the industry now-a-days is that not many are willing to experiment and try to introduce something new. Back in the day, there were so many remember-able faces in gaming, mostly because its never been done before. Now more than half of the time we see a generic game title or we see the old faces coming in to pick up with their usual gameplay. Granted, some of those games now have really good gameplay and I can't complain about the old games coming back, but I'm still waiting for something more defining to show up.

I want to see characters that really stick out and are memorable, gameplay that just works (even through glitches and slight bugs), something that can stand alongside the classics. Perhaps that's just me being bias towards the olden era, but back then I could see the effort they had put into the games to make them as enjoyable as possible. Today, half the time it feels like they're only after the money. And it's not hard to do so when they can just make a generic FPS character and use the unreal engine or something along that line. Visuals also seemed to be the only thing games have cared about over the past couple of years, with only a few titles that still made the gameplay fun.

I don't know how to express this properly, and I might be coming off as ignorant towards the other game genres like the FPS, sports, or those motion control games (which some of them are good, just most are not my cup of tea). I dunno, there are just less and less game companies willing to challenge the classics as being the most respected in gaming. Though that may be because gaming has become so divided with the different genres and the occasional elitists here and there.

After reading this through, even Im lost at what I was going for :P

I can't believe Nintendo started off as a playing card company in 1889... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Nintendo)


It
s almost as if they were preordained "by a higher power" to rule.. hence their company name. kind of weird if you think about it..
Side note, thats news to me  :o
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Kingshango on November 26, 2011, 01:42:04 PM
Side note, thats news to me  :o


Ditto, I've always thought that Nintendo started in the 1930's but the late 1800's? No wonder they got money to burn.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: A-Yty on November 26, 2011, 02:04:34 PM
Just because they started ages ago, doesn't mean they have an underground treasure chamber, guys. A long time in business doesn't mean a long time of sheer profit.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 26, 2011, 03:20:55 PM
Just because they started ages ago, doesn't mean they have an underground treasure chamber, guys. A long time in business doesn't mean a long time of sheer profit.
Except for Nintendo
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: shelverton. on November 26, 2011, 03:27:48 PM

The Nintendo we know today hardly has anything to do with the original company, but it's cool anyway. It's also amusing that it would take roughly ONE HUNDRED YEARS for the company to really take off. I mean, they probably did alright before (otherwise they wouldn't have been around for so long) but with the release of the NES, Nintendo suddenly became known to EVERYONE. Even my grandma who's 94 years old knows what it is, and she's never played a video game in her life.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sam Belmont on November 26, 2011, 04:57:44 PM
You people keep forgetting how much money Nintendo has, and that they can pretty much allot as much as they need to their projects.

^^
Also i see ppl is also forgetting that nintendo 2D mario leader of the games with million of copies sold is a FAMILY game, lot of fun come son check this, come bro, hey cusin look that koopa, dad see how i kick the turtle....
obviously its the leader becuase the market it aims lets be rational its like comparing "Kung Fu Panda" against "300" for me 300 is lot better but in marketing Kung Fu Panda will be much more profitable is soemthing everybody normally enjoys.

im a big supporter of 2D Castlevanias but sadly as someone already said and i cant quote it cuz im on my phone and its a pain to look for the post, there are looooot of hardcore fans out there but unless a new game arise and make sound many wont find this awwesome forum , i ut myself as example never ever knew this existed i grew up playing Castlevania in fact beside mario and zelda i think Castlevania (Akumajo Dracula) was the third game i played as a kid in my NES brother how i got here? i was amuzed for the new CV LOS i cant believe my beloved series was having a big game even if it was a reeboot,  played liked it a lot even when its an alternate reality of the original, what happened? i saw the reception was good and started looking for news about other CV games on production and BAM!!!!! find the CV paradise here, and i think you are doing great with OA and i will support you guys in anything as long as severals boardies have told, trying not to attack Konami or LOS cuz that will take us nowhere and the company ignoring us, lets face it right now LOS have happy konami thats why the sequel is in work, a different proffesional approach will benefit us more.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on November 26, 2011, 06:01:12 PM
^^^ That settles it, we need a family-friendly Castlevania title! ;D
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: uzo on November 26, 2011, 06:03:48 PM
Kid Dracula?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: C Belmont on November 26, 2011, 06:21:30 PM
Perhaps setting up a place specifically where fans can show how much they love the things that OA is fighting for would be a more effective approach, currently the operation does seem focused a lot on highlighting what has been done wrong instead of what has been done right.
Konami is probably more likely to be receptive to positive feedback than criticism (even if some of it could be considered constructive criticism)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sam Belmont on November 26, 2011, 10:12:00 PM
^^^ That settles it, we need a family-friendly Castlevania title! ;D


ROFL this post put a smile on my face for about an hour!! I know you're joking but having a family friendly CV will be worser than LOS or even  PoR.

I think that CV won't enter in that category never that's why it's not fair to match it with those, cuz the plot and gothic themes on the game it has a very specific market and it mainly survives thanks to the fanbase like Megaman. Konami has 2 options please the fan base and keep it small or try to attract new fans which I think they are aiming with LoS.

Returning to AO I agree a lot with C BelmOnt idea it sound pretty nice, I'll e looking this operation closely hope it flourish.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on November 27, 2011, 11:14:19 AM
Perhaps setting up a place specifically where fans can show how much they love the things that OA is fighting for would be a more effective approach, currently the operation does seem focused a lot on highlighting what has been done wrong instead of what has been done right.
Konami is probably more likely to be receptive to positive feedback than criticism (even if some of it could be considered constructive criticism)
The question is, how do you handle positive feedback when they've been totally pulling bullshit lately? It's kinda like sweet talkin someone who burned your house down and finding good within the bad things they've done. It's like, "Paul W. S Anderson, your Resident Evil movies are crap, but, I have to applaud your.... enthusiasm.". LOL!

I bring up this question because, so many times, people get mixed signals. Even if they are trying to be the most kind when dealing with someone, sometimes what they are trying to get across is read the wrong way. And if it feels MORE like praise(and ego stroking), Konami might just see NOTHING wrong with what they are doing and think that they are actually getting commended for everything wrong they are doing. Hence, will find no reason to change what they are doing and keep on heading their merry way down whatever way they plan to.

If you CAN get the message across and get their attention using honey, then by all means, do it. The thing is, if you can also get your message across, break through that barrier and if it's by ranting, what ever works. Of course, I agree, if the terms are more open than the specifics addressed in OA, it might be a little better for everyone, but there should really be an open channel for different fans to voice their opinions regarding what they feel is going wrong and right in the CV series to Konami.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Ghetto-blasteR on November 27, 2011, 01:08:24 PM
everyone needs to rally under one banner. it wouldn't make sense for people within the same movement to have conflicting opinions, and nobody will listen to any of you. that being said, people don't think exactly the same way about every specific little detail in castlevania, but as long as there is agreement about more general key points, then the movement is consistent.

maybe O:A succeeds in this; maybe it doesn't. perhaps the mere fact that this isn't entirely clear is an issue that people will want to think about addressing. granted, i haven't spent too much time checking out what O:A is really about.

anyway, for the most part, i think that 1) if you agree with O:A's mission, then you should individually voice your support so that it doesn't seem like one person is leading this whole thing, injecting his own personal opinion into the whole group. whatever is really going on is beside the point; this is the impression i get. 2) if you don't agree with the mission, then stay away from O:A. it's your privilege to offer helpful/unhelpful advice, but i suspect that unsolicited advice is going to be largely useless if it's unnecessarily harsh and negative. for those people criticizing O:A for its lack of tact, you would do well to set an example that O:A can follow. 3) in acknowledging the divide, O:A should be careful not to give the impression that they represent all fans. not saying you do or you don't, but always keep that in mind.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on November 27, 2011, 01:24:22 PM
I kinda have the hidden sense that Konami DOESN'T think OA is representing all fans. If they were the type to jump to that conclusion, they'd be awefully stupid, wouldn't they. Just because there are a few openly vocal and opinionated CV fans doesn't mean all of the fans feel the same way.

Though I agree, if we were to address this in a civil way, we might want to start a committee where we poll and discuss what exactly we want from this.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Ghetto-blasteR on November 27, 2011, 02:21:34 PM
I kinda have the hidden sense that Konami DOESN'T think OA is representing all fans.

actually, this is probably true. my first reaction to this is that O:A should seek to remold itself until it does represent some category of fans. it could do something such as "original/longtime fans of the series", or "classicvania fans", just to give a few examples. define and target accordingly. and it will have to make some revisions to its mission statement to do so.

basically, the idea is that if O:A can't even encapsulate a well-defined and well recognized category of fans, then konami doesn't have much incentive to pay attention to its cause.

i realize i'm probably repeating some of the things others have said already in this thread, but i guess i don't really have qualms about saying them again.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sam Belmont on November 27, 2011, 05:12:10 PM
That's good stuff and great ideas guys and I agree  that Konami may not feel that way over the operation.
More important I think it will may be a wise move to take this lot more Pro and like a bussines company making them see that it's still a bussines to go along with us even if it sounds funny in the end they are a company and like  business and green stuff so if we make them see it, when I close a deal I never go on making any kind of criticism or even told the persons projects or ideas are wrong or marking his mistakes, I try to focus on make him see I'm a nice partner to stick along as long as I get my own ending I don't care what other ideas or projects he has going on, I simply focus on closing my deal.
Konami needs all of us when I mean all is everybody who will buy the game show and raise the hand and like our has been said look at us as a biiiiig group, in the end they will see there's money in there and will pay attention, let's face it if Konami doesn't see any good bussines there as a company it will simply abandon or proceed with the reboots or simply nail down the coffin, that's why I think its a nice approach to show it more as a bussines proposal than an ultimatum.


By the way agree totally I think Dracula X Chronicles really hit the nail in mixing the platforms but sadly it seems it had very poor support.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on November 27, 2011, 06:58:41 PM
That last page was a very refreshing read.  Just a few thoughts I'd like to share about what's been said...

^^^ That settles it, we need a family-friendly Castlevania title! ;D

Family friendly?  No.  But the "M" rating immediately limits the market to adult gamers.  If Konami's number one goal is growing the Castlevania Brand, the "T" rating might be a better target for reaching a wider audience.

Perhaps setting up a place specifically where fans can show how much they love the things that OA is fighting for would be a more effective approach, currently the operation does seem focused a lot on highlighting what has been done wrong instead of what has been done right.
Konami is probably more likely to be receptive to positive feedback than criticism (even if some of it could be considered constructive criticism)

This is an excellent observation.  I think most of the critics' comments about Operation: Akumajo being "uncivil" or "unprofessional" are really turned off by the negative tone that goes hand in hand with our activist slant.  Activists always complain about the status quo and make demands for change --so naturally, this creates a somewhat negative aura.  But remember, Operation: Akumajo never had any media muscle to carry our message, so the activism was necessary just to stir things up and move the fanbase out of its complacency.  Are there more positive and constructive ways to make some our points?  Absolutely.  But our mistakes are always more obvious in hindsight than from the outset.  Going forward, we need to find a way to lighten up and focus on the positive a bit more.

The question is, how do you handle positive feedback when they've been totally pulling bullshit lately? It's kinda like sweet talkin someone who burned your house down and finding good within the bad things they've done. It's like, "Paul W. S Anderson, your Resident Evil movies are crap, but, I have to applaud your.... enthusiasm.". LOL!

I bring up this question because, so many times, people get mixed signals. Even if they are trying to be the most kind when dealing with someone, sometimes what they are trying to get across is read the wrong way. And if it feels MORE like praise(and ego stroking), Konami might just see NOTHING wrong with what they are doing and think that they are actually getting commended for everything wrong they are doing. Hence, will find no reason to change what they are doing and keep on heading their merry way down whatever way they plan to.

If you CAN get the message across and get their attention using honey, then by all means, do it. The thing is, if you can also get your message across, break through that barrier and if it's by ranting, what ever works. Of course, I agree, if the terms are more open than the specifics addressed in OA, it might be a little better for everyone, but there should really be an open channel for different fans to voice their opinions regarding what they feel is going wrong and right in the CV series to Konami.

Agreed.  Sometimes there's just not a nice way to make a critical point.

everyone needs to rally under one banner. it wouldn't make sense for people within the same movement to have conflicting opinions, and nobody will listen to any of you. that being said, people don't think exactly the same way about every specific little detail in castlevania, but as long as there is agreement about more general key points, then the movement is consistent.

maybe O:A succeeds in this; maybe it doesn't. perhaps the mere fact that this isn't entirely clear is an issue that people will want to think about addressing. granted, i haven't spent too much time checking out what O:A is really about.

anyway, for the most part, i think that 1) if you agree with O:A's mission, then you should individually voice your support so that it doesn't seem like one person is leading this whole thing, injecting his own personal opinion into the whole group. whatever is really going on is beside the point; this is the impression i get. 2) if you don't agree with the mission, then stay away from O:A. it's your privilege to offer helpful/unhelpful advice, but i suspect that unsolicited advice is going to be largely useless if it's unnecessarily harsh and negative. for those people criticizing O:A for its lack of tact, you would do well to set an example that O:A can follow. 3) in acknowledging the divide, O:A should be careful not to give the impression that they represent all fans. not saying you do or you don't, but always keep that in mind.

First, thank-you for calling out these hypocritical comments.  Like I said before, I don't mind answering the criticism, but it's hard to take people seriously when they don't practice what they preach.

Uniting the fanbase has been unexpectedly difficult.  From the outset, there was a general philosophy to take on "consensus issues"  Most Castlevania fans want Akumajo Dracula to continue.  Most Castlevania fans want 2-D to continue.  Most Castlevania fans want more investment in quality.  Most Castlevania fans wanted to see the 25th Anniversary observed with some kind of Tribute.  Most fans want to see the 1999 Demon Castle War.  Most fans want to see a remake of Dracula's Curse.  All of these things were rolled into one big mission --which perhaps was trying to do too much...

Unfortunately, some lasting impressions were also made that Operation: Akumajo is anti-3D and anti-LoS --neither of which is entirely true.  The truth is we believe 2-D is Castlevania's superior artform, and we reject how Konami positioned LoS as an Akumajo Dracula reboot.  Quite frankly, some flaws in our mission statement and propaganda didn't clearly articulate these positions --so we've paid a price by alienating some potentially supportive fans.

I kinda have the hidden sense that Konami DOESN'T think OA is representing all fans. If they were the type to jump to that conclusion, they'd be awefully stupid, wouldn't they. Just because there are a few openly vocal and opinionated CV fans doesn't mean all of the fans feel the same way.

Though I agree, if we were to address this in a civil way, we might want to start a committee where we poll and discuss what exactly we want from this.

Most activist groups tend to be in the minority, but even a minorities can motivate change --it's really the power of the message that makes a difference.  The "consensus issues" I mentioned earlier came from various polls that myself and others had done over the past year.  Fresh polling certainly wouldn't hurt anything though.

actually, this is probably true. my first reaction to this is that O:A should seek to remold itself until it does represent some category of fans. it could do something such as "original/longtime fans of the series", or "classicvania fans", just to give a few examples. define and target accordingly. and it will have to make some revisions to its mission statement to do so.

basically, the idea is that if O:A can't even encapsulate a well-defined and well recognized category of fans, then konami doesn't have much incentive to pay attention to its cause.

i realize i'm probably repeating some of the things others have said already in this thread, but i guess i don't really have qualms about saying them again.

I'm not opposed to a rewrite of the mission statement, but considering that I've done that once already --I may not be the right man for the job at this point.  The original was just a few sentences, that came off as unprofessional and way too demanding.  So the rewrite focused on defining the group's core philosophy --giving background and context for the main objectives.  Since then, there have been just a couple of minor tweaks --one after the 25th Anniversary date actually passed, and one in response to David Cox's recent acknowledgment that LoS is not an Akumajo Dracula game.

That's good stuff and great ideas guys and I agree  that Konami may not feel that way over the operation.
More important I think it will may be a wise move to take this lot more Pro and like a bussines company making them see that it's still a bussines to go along with us even if it sounds funny in the end they are a company and like  business and green stuff so if we make them see it, when I close a deal I never go on making any kind of criticism or even told the persons projects or ideas are wrong or marking his mistakes, I try to focus on make him see I'm a nice partner to stick along as long as I get my own ending I don't care what other ideas or projects he has going on, I simply focus on closing my deal.
Konami needs all of us when I mean all is everybody who will buy the game show and raise the hand and like our has been said look at us as a biiiiig group, in the end they will see there's money in there and will pay attention, let's face it if Konami doesn't see any good bussines there as a company it will simply abandon or proceed with the reboots or simply nail down the coffin, that's why I think its a nice approach to show it more as a bussines proposal than an ultimatum.


By the way agree totally I think Dracula X Chronicles really hit the nail in mixing the platforms but sadly it seems it had very poor support.

The recent engagement we've seen from Konami over Facebook was completely unexpected.  Our numbers don't really give us any leverage for their attention on a professional level, so maintaining a casual dialogue will be the focus for now.  In the meantime, our top priority should be to continue building bridges within the Castlevania fanbase, so we can eventually outgrow this activist phase and eventually reach for that professional level everyone really wants to see..
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Ghetto-blasteR on November 27, 2011, 10:36:41 PM
cecil, you've said numerous times that nobody has really stepped up and offered to take your place. nobody can really blame you for that. i also don't think you've gotten some of the recognition that i think you deserve for having pulled together what you have. regardless of varying opinions on the whole matter, at least i don't think anyone doubts your dedication.

if i were in your position, i'd probably keep the offer open to anyone who wants to help out, while at the same time, keep trying to head the operation as best you can until someone lends a hand. but i hope that when someone steps up, you're not going to just pass it off altogether because it sounds like you're selling yourself short. for now just keep using the community as a resource. there's a lot you can learn from other people.

that being said, i took a look at the statement on the FB page, and i feel like the most conspicuous contradiction comes from considering the following excerpts in parallel:

Quote
1. Although we accept Lords of Shadow as a fine game on its own merits, we cannot accept the desecration it brings to the Akumajo mythology. Therefore, we reject the game as a reboot, and encourage Konami to reposition it as a separate universe that can coexist with a continuing line of Akumajo Dracula games.

2. Secondly, we concede the Castlevania brand needs a reboot --however, we insist the Akumajo mythology be respected in doing so.
(numbers inserted.)

here's what i don't understand. first of all, what do you mean when you say "reject the game as a reboot"? taken alone, this statement could mean one of several things: you don't think the game is a reboot at all, or you don't think the series should be rebooted, or you don't believe the game is a satisfactory reboot. perhaps there are other interpretations.

the first interpretation is obviously not the case; LoS sticks out from the rest of the series story-wise. could it be the second? well, you say later on that the brand needs a reboot after all. so, the third? well, what exactly is your criticism of LoS as a reboot? like you said, it's a good game on its own merits, but you criticize it because it doesn't follow akumajo mythology. but that's the whole point of a reboot.

so, simply put, it's tricky when you say simultaneously that CV needs a reboot but that akumajo mythology should be respected, because it's not entirely clear what that means.

i've heard some people say that the story should just be treated as a multiverse, and that they should wrap up the IGA universe while doing whatever they please with the LoS universe. let's assume that this is your goal. i get this, and i do think it's possible to convince konami of this (somehow), but criticizing LoS in any capacity is like contradicting your own goal, because that's the whole second half of what you're asking for.

final point: perhaps confounding variables like "IGA storyline vs LoS storyline" and "2D vs 3D" is going to hurt the chances of revisiting the IGA universe. seems to me like nowadays companies will choose a 3D concept by default; they have to be convinced by very compelling reasons to pick 2D over 3D. not the other way around. if 2D is going to be at a disadvantage, maybe fans of IGA's universe will have to be more open minded to a 3D game for 1999 or whatever. food for thought.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on November 28, 2011, 09:24:23 AM
Mistake.
This post could be removed.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on November 28, 2011, 12:33:49 PM
cecil, you've said numerous times that nobody has really stepped up and offered to take your place. nobody can really blame you for that. i also don't think you've gotten some of the recognition that i think you deserve for having pulled together what you have. regardless of varying opinions on the whole matter, at least i don't think anyone doubts your dedication.

if i were in your position, i'd probably keep the offer open to anyone who wants to help out, while at the same time, keep trying to head the operation as best you can until someone lends a hand. but i hope that when someone steps up, you're not going to just pass it off altogether because it sounds like you're selling yourself short. for now just keep using the community as a resource. there's a lot you can learn from other people.

that being said, i took a look at the statement on the FB page, and i feel like the most conspicuous contradiction comes from considering the following excerpts in parallel:
(numbers inserted.)

here's what i don't understand. first of all, what do you mean when you say "reject the game as a reboot"? taken alone, this statement could mean one of several things: you don't think the game is a reboot at all, or you don't think the series should be rebooted, or you don't believe the game is a satisfactory reboot. perhaps there are other interpretations.

the first interpretation is obviously not the case; LoS sticks out from the rest of the series story-wise. could it be the second? well, you say later on that the brand needs a reboot after all. so, the third? well, what exactly is your criticism of LoS as a reboot? like you said, it's a good game on its own merits, but you criticize it because it doesn't follow akumajo mythology. but that's the whole point of a reboot.

so, simply put, it's tricky when you say simultaneously that CV needs a reboot but that akumajo mythology should be respected, because it's not entirely clear what that means.

i've heard some people say that the story should just be treated as a multiverse, and that they should wrap up the IGA universe while doing whatever they please with the LoS universe. let's assume that this is your goal. i get this, and i do think it's possible to convince konami of this (somehow), but criticizing LoS in any capacity is like contradicting your own goal, because that's the whole second half of what you're asking for.

final point: perhaps confounding variables like "IGA storyline vs LoS storyline" and "2D vs 3D" is going to hurt the chances of revisiting the IGA universe. seems to me like nowadays companies will choose a 3D concept by default; they have to be convinced by very compelling reasons to pick 2D over 3D. not the other way around. if 2D is going to be at a disadvantage, maybe fans of IGA's universe will have to be more open minded to a 3D game for 1999 or whatever. food for thought.

I can see the confusion here.  Considering how long the mission statement already was, a few specifics needed to be passed over for brevity's sake.  But let's examine these issues in some more detail.

Reboots have a fine tradition of retelling epic tales in a modern way for a new generation, but they do so in a way that *respects* the source material. The many retellings of Batman are a terrific example --there’s a core mythology there that’s always constant. Wealthy man uses his millions to dress up like a bat and fight crime --none of the Batman retellings in any comic books, television, or film violate that central core.

Defining Castlevania's core mythology is a bit trickier due to certain liberties Igarashi had taken late in the series.  But if you go back to the origin, it was always about the Holy Belmont Warriors storming the Demon Castle to hunt Count Dracula.  And even the Igarashi games, with all of their liberties, built upon that core mythology.  Therefore, we believe the Belmont vs Dracula rivalry is the very thing that defines Castlevania.  For whatever reason, Lords of Shadow's writers brazenly disrespected that core to a point far beyond reasonable artistic liberties.

The story (including the DLC) is about the denigration and desecration of Gabriel, the Holy Belmont Warrior --as he is ultimately transformed into the villainous Dracula.  Considering Gabriel is the only Belmont, and Marie died without bearing him an heir --the Belmont Clan died with her.  Therefore the entire Belmont vs Dracula rivalry has been completely destroyed.  Moreover, Satan's presence further undermined Dracula's supreme villainy.

I hope that explains why we reject Lords of Shadow as a reboot/replacement for the Akumajo Dracula games we've been playing up until now.  It simply doesn't respect the source material as any honest reboot should.  And even Cox is admitting "it's not an Akumajo game" and "it's a separate universe" --so it's up to Konami to reposition LoS so it can coexist with a continuing line of Akumajo Dracula games.

Does Castlevania even need a reboot?  Yes.  We acknowledge Konami has legitimate problems marketing these games to younger generations that never grew up with Simon Belmont.  Rebooting would give these new players a fresh entry point into the Akumajo Dracula universe --and ultimately help revive the Castlevania brand.  There is one caveat however --it was irresponsible for Konami to take us down this road before giving the existing continuity proper closure.  Half a dozen games have been whetting our appetite for the 1999 Demon Castle War --and we expect Konami to deliver on that promise before any additional reboots are attempted.


Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on November 29, 2011, 09:02:29 AM
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It simply doesn't respect the source material as any honest reboot should.
Honest reboots must only use basic outline of the story and that's that (LOS did that). There is no neccesity to adhere to the past ideas as if they were sacred and untouchable - that is the meaning of the REboot.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: KaZudra on November 29, 2011, 01:14:34 PM
Honest reboots must only use basic outline of the story and that's that (LOS did that). There is no neccesity to adhere to the past ideas as if they were sacred and untouchable - that is the meaning of the REboot.

to be honest, most of these people don't even know what a reboot is.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Ghetto-blasteR on November 29, 2011, 04:58:19 PM
to be honest, most of these people don't even know what a reboot is.

i don't think it's as precisely defined as you're implying. the artist doing the reboot is at liberty to keep or disregard as much of the old material as he chooses. that's all there is to it.

cecil, this is also why the people who created LoS probably don't really care that O:A thinks it diverged too much from the "core mythos". unless you can somehow get O:A to represent the majority of fans. but i wonder if that's possible. using very loose logic... the people who care most about the original story are probably the old school fans, and honestly it doesn't seem like they're going to cater to them anymore. the new gamers probably care a lot less about the reboot.

(despite not liking the reboot, i for one still think the LoS story is great on its own. yes, even that belmont = dracula. i'm sure at least some number of people out there don't mind this either.)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on November 29, 2011, 07:10:34 PM
I went into LoS with an open mind and accepted everything it threw at me. LoS as a whole is a creative liberty with Castlevania. I jist went in with that mindset, enjoying it for what is is, and not based on "how faithful" it is. The story is far from perfect, granted, and in fact the transition to Dracula in the DLC just seems too rushed, (it's something that would have been better with more time to see Gabriel fall deeper and deeper into darkness. Not just suddenly turn into a merciless killer in the snap of a finger. Perhaps a sequel would have been better for this, or depending on how the sequel will go, in flashbacks or exposition) But in all, it wasn't too bad at all. Just your classic fall to darkness story.

Hell, it's almost like a creative reinterpretation of  Mathias Cronqvist's origins and transformation. EG: A former knight loses his beloved and becomes Dracula. (Only this knight wasn't a complete immature douche about it, and not quite as insane)

Which in turn is inspired by Brahm Stoker's Dracula.

Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on November 29, 2011, 08:56:27 PM
Honest reboots must only use basic outline of the story and that's that (LOS did that). There is no neccesity to adhere to the past ideas as if they were sacred and untouchable - that is the meaning of the REboot.


"Castlevania means different things to different people" -David Cox
”For me, Castlevania was always about lone warrior battling supernatural creatures with a whip.” -David Cox

These quotes clearly illustrate that David Cox defines Castlevania much differently than we do.  It's also interesting to note that he's never really talked about the original storyline --or even Dracula-- being any inspiration to him whatsoever.  As a matter of fact, it's just a little shocking how callous he seems toward the Akumajo continuity --and its fans.

"Forget what you know, or think you know, about Castlevania."  -David Cox
"We can’t make games for such a narrow audience and keep the series relevant." -David Cox

But just for curiosity's sake, how would you define "the basic outline of the story" when it comes to Castlevania?

to be honest, most of these people don't even know what a reboot is.

i don't think it's as precisely defined as you're implying. the artist doing the reboot is at liberty to keep or disregard as much of the old material as he chooses. that's all there is to it.

The term "reboot" is not clearly defined, but there are many other examples we can look to throughout comic books, film, and television...  I gave Batman as an example, but we could also discuss the reboots of other iconic mythologies like the Transformers, Star Trek, or Hulk --all of which respect their source material by the way...

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cecil, this is also why the people who created LoS probably don't really care that O:A thinks it diverged too much from the "core mythos". unless you can somehow get O:A to represent the majority of fans. but i wonder if that's possible. using very loose logic... the people who care most about the original story are probably the old school fans, and honestly it doesn't seem like they're going to cater to them anymore. the new gamers probably care a lot less about the reboot.

(despite not liking the reboot, i for one still think the LoS story is great on its own. yes, even that belmont = dracula. i'm sure at least some number of people out there don't mind this either.)

We're not interested in reaching the people that made LoS --those folks at Mercury Steam have a mandate to go their own way.  And like I've said before, we have no objection whatsoever to seeing LoS continue.  What we object to is seeing Akumajo Dracula discontinued --and that issue needs to be taken up with Konami directly.  As for winning the majority, that's a tough sell.  So many of these recent games have muddied the water so badly, that Castlevania really does mean different things to different people.  If this fanbase is so fractured and so petty, that we can't even agree on the basics --then Operation: Akumajo surely deserves to fail.  And if it does, it's not likely another Castlevania fan operation will ever be attempted.


Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on November 30, 2011, 09:49:53 AM
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I went into LoS with an open mind and accepted everything it threw at me. LoS as a whole is a creative liberty with Castlevania. I jist went in with that mindset, enjoying it for what is is, and not based on "how faithful" it is.
Bravo!!

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These quotes clearly illustrate that David Cox defines Castlevania much differently than we do.
No need to generalize. I more or less support this idea of what Castlevania is.
While Dracula is a big part of the mythos I always felt that the series could become much more if it threw away its old formula where the Dracula is a centerpiece villain. There is many other dark monsters in the world for Belmonts to fight to, and besides in later years Dracula value as main villain was really cheapened by the fact that practically everyone and they mother defeated "the most powerfull dark creature in the world that could bring an End of the World and plunge it into darkness". His cheap ressurection almost every 15 minutes didn't help either. He should be a formidable powerfull monster, not a scarecrow of a final boss for every game.

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As a matter of fact, it's just a little shocking how callous he seems toward the Akumajo continuity --and its fans.
He is a new developer - he has right to do with the series what he want to do. Not everyone like it, but I don't want to bash him for having his own perception of the series. Especially if his games take place in different continuty alltogether. Such approach doesn't bother me at all.

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But just for curiosity's sake, how would you define "the basic outline of the story" when it comes to Castlevania?
Belmonts fight monsters in the world. Dracula is an ultimate powerfull villain who's presence is not mandatory in a every single instance of conflict.
He should be like a supervisor for forces of darkness. He controls them, but not present every time, when Belmonts bash his forces or attacks one of his strongholds. And he must have many charismatic liutenants like Carmilla, Orlox, Bartley, Reaper who could take mantle of the final boss in some instances. And maybe some rivals who fight him for dominance (Galamoth).

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I gave Batman as an example
Considering how much interpretations Batman had in the past I don't think that is a good example.

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So many of these recent games have muddied the water so badly, that Castlevania really does mean different things to different people.
I'd say it's not a bad thing if everyone could find something in the series that hook them up.
The biggest problem in this case is that with so many various ideas of what the series should be, it would be hard to please absolutely everyone within the fanbase. Exactly what we have here.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on November 30, 2011, 10:18:53 AM
Gabriel is only a Belmont by name, he's not a true Belmont.
In fact, he's a Cronqvist, sooooooooooo not really a Holy Warrior, though he does start out that way (even his order isn't really holy).

I'm not sure what Konami is going to do with Castlevania.  I just hope it doesn't languish for years the way some of their other properties have.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Kingshango on November 30, 2011, 02:51:06 PM
I posted a theory on how the Belmont clan could still live on despite Gabriel being Dracula in the LOS megathread. I'd repeat it here but im a lazy bastard, plus it will most likey be buried alive, which is a shame since it's a good theory. :-\
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: X on November 30, 2011, 06:07:41 PM
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I posted a theory on how the Belmont clan could still live on despite Gabriel being Dracula in the LOS megathread. I'd repeat it here but im a lazy bastard, plus it will most likey be buried alive, which is a shame since it's a good theory. :-\

What is buried alive in Castlevania eventually rises with the next resurrection  ;)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on November 30, 2011, 08:58:59 PM
No need to generalize. I more or less support this idea of what Castlevania is.
While Dracula is a big part of the mythos I always felt that the series could become much more if it threw away its old formula where the Dracula is a centerpiece villain. There is many other dark monsters in the world for Belmonts to fight to, and besides in later years Dracula value as main villain was really cheapened by the fact that practically everyone and they mother defeated "the most powerfull dark creature in the world that could bring an End of the World and plunge it into darkness". His cheap ressurection almost every 15 minutes didn't help either. He should be a formidable powerfull monster, not a scarecrow of a final boss for every game.

Belmonts fight monsters in the world. Dracula is an ultimate powerfull villain who's presence is not mandatory in a every single instance of conflict.

He should be like a supervisor for forces of darkness. He controls them, but not present every time, when Belmonts bash his forces or attacks one of his strongholds. And he must have many charismatic liutenants like Carmilla, Orlox, Bartley, Reaper who could take mantle of the final boss in some instances. And maybe some rivals who fight him for dominance (Galamoth).

Lots of good points here, but you can just as easily fault Konami for over-milking the cow.  The original Castlevania was remade what, 4 times?  Granted SCV4 and Chrociles were fantastic, but both of those games could have explored new narratives instead of recycling the Simon story constantly.  More recently, some of the portable games really could have used more time in development --PoR immediately comes to mind with its cheaply remixed portraits...  Although DoS had some excellent features (like Julius Mode) most of those innovations should have been developed for its immediate predecessor.  If only Konami had given AoS more time in development, it could have been that much more amazing --and DoS wouldn't have even been necessary.  Sadly, these are the sort of things that happen when businessmen dominate the arts --because unlike artists, businessmen really don't mind cutting corners for a quick profit.

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He is a new developer - he has right to do with the series what he want to do. Not everyone like it, but I don't want to bash him for having his own perception of the series. Especially if his games take place in different continuty alltogether. Such approach doesn't bother me at all.

Cox can design whatever game he wants, but when you invoke a brand like Castlevania --then you're wandering into the murky realm of expectations.  Fortunately for Cox, Castlevania is the just about the only video game series with whip-centric monster-combat gameplay --otherwise there's no way he could have possibly gotten away with a statement like that.  Imagine if he tried to reboot Metroid and said "it's about a space warrior who likes to run around and shoot things."  Either way --Lords of Shadow is here to stay.  The real issue right now is the future of Akumajo Dracula.

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Considering how much interpretations Batman had in the past I don't think that is a good example.

Why not?  Multiple reboots shouldn't make a difference --they all respect the same source material.  "Wealthy man uses his millions to dress up like a bat and fight crime"  But if you prefer, we can certainly narrow it down.  Take your pick.

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi732.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww327%2Fcecil-kain%2FAdam2.jpg&hash=4a3ec7a1af4b62f0d5c5d9dd8375080d) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi732.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww327%2Fcecil-kain%2FBatman1.jpg&hash=fe1dd61adf769dd5009f0798fc670051)

No pretenders here --both are Batman.  Obviously a couple generations apart...
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: KaZudra on November 30, 2011, 10:56:30 PM
As for Batman, Nolan's Batman Flicks suffer to sloppy writing particularly with Batman himself.
as for example, he broods on for most of the first movie about being a symbol that is uncorruptible yet in the next movie try to pass the torch to Harvey Dent (I might add who has very, very little in common with the original) who predictably and foolishly corrupts.

As for Castlevania, the mythos is actually pretty retarded when you think about it enough. Dracula rises every time he's got a chance just to be struck down by the belmont clan and thier mystic weapon that's origin is just as ridiculous as Bionic Commando's Wife Arm.
Why do we enjoy them? Simple. The Gameplay, the setting, the lone warrior who kills horror movie icons and mythological and Middle Earth creatures, sometimes we enjoy the cheesy story, but how many times can they repeat themselves?
Did you know they did the Cv2 scenario 3 times already?
As enjoyable the games are and the characters are too, even I admit the story is incredibly redundant.

As for Reboot, a Reboot is a Re imagining of a story as a whole, taking the parts seen as good and discarding the rest.
In castlevania terms, The setting, the gameplay, and characters were kept.

The Story and Mythos were discarded for reasons I understand.

As individual games, Castlevania is great. but as a whole, the story and mythos gets broken and much more confusing, especially as of late with IGA's team. Some games actually amount to nothing, while others are shitty direct sequels.
Some where great, some were not so great. but the broken, confusing mythos can be appreciated as is...

As much as I love the classic games, I really want LoS to be as Distant to the original in terms of story, I love castlevania, but I really want to see something new.

but the real point is this:
Most fan will not accept LoS simply because they cannot let go of thier classic Characters, I say this; Let the classic games be, If you wanna see them again... GO play that game!

I love the old timeline with its nonsensical values and events, but Que Sera Sera.
I'm moving on, but I'm not gonna forget the old Games, and no-one is telling anyone to forget them either. 
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: A-Yty on December 01, 2011, 02:12:40 AM
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Most fan will not accept LoS simply because they cannot let go of thier classic Characters,

1. What exactly proves this? Most of the criticism towards LoS hardly ever mentions characters as its weak point (mostly, it's about the name-dropping).

2. Even if that were true, so what? What's the point of getting rid of those characters? A random guy doesn't know a thing about "Gabriel Belmont", but "Simon Belmont" might ring a bell.

If "most fans" want to have the characters be reborn in a reboot, trying to make them feel silly for it is trolly logic. If you're fine with not recreating the characters to prove yourself that you're not fixated on the past, good for you. Some people don't see it the same way, but it doesn't mean they're not ready to get something fresh. That's lazy generalizing, IMO.

And yeah, a reboot is about keeping the important things. Which is why I hope LoS is just an alternate universe instead of a reboot.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on December 01, 2011, 12:39:26 PM
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Lots of good points here, but you can just as easily fault Konami for over-milking the cow. Sadly, these are the sort of things that happen when businessmen dominate the arts --because unlike artists, businessmen really don't mind cutting corners for a quick profit.
I agree with this.
And I understand that in many ways it's a Konami fault that series become what it is now. For example if not for their interference CV64 could be much more awesome and push general series into 3D instead of alienating many people about this idea.

However there is one aspect that I think didn't entirely depend on money - it was storytelling. I mean was it that hard for IGA to write something more competent about Belmont's struggle with Dracula? He could consult with some other people or at least make his storylines simplier, instead trying to apply "twist-after-twist" approach. In many ways his attempt at making "rich" storyline for the games ruined some of them. Some of them failed because he didn't have resources to pull quality execution of his ideas, others because the plot was bad by default. In the worst case scenario those two problems overlapped with each other.

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Cox can design whatever game he wants, but when you invoke a brand like Castlevania --then you're wandering into the murky realm of expectations.
I once again agree, but still in some cases there are reasonable expectations and unreasonable ones.

After LOS was given to the completely different developer it was only natural to wait some (radically) different approach to the series. After first materials about the game were shown I don't think that there were any reasons to wait for this Castlevania to be in vain of the previous games. And even if someone still had any illusions about this - they should've been canceled when it was said that this game will be a reboot.
I undersatnd that some people didn't want to believe that they favorite series will be (could be) changed in this insatllment so much, but waiting for the game to be "like the previous ones", when everything points to the contrary is even less reasonable.

I have another example of this - recently MK9 was released - this game was a reboot of the series / remake of MK1-MK3 and continuation of the series at the same time. Some people firmly believed that the story of the MK1, MK2 and MK3 will be completely recreated in MK9 to a "T". However all recent examples, when developers revisited that era (in MK Shaolin Monks and MK vs DC Universe) told about contrary - that they will not hesitate to change things even if some of them didn't need any changing in mind of the many fans.
In this case it was tottally reasonable to wait that some elements of the old storyline will be changed, simply because developers did it in the past with even less reasons to do so and because this game was a "reboot" (hence bound to have some changes by default).
Seems some people didn't take all this information to a heart and, when story was unveiled and the fact that there were some major changes was discovered those people were SHOCKED that it happened (commencing unholy amount of shitstorm in the process), when everything pointed that it WILL happen.
Fans want to believe in something, but sometimes they need to be reasonable with their expectations.

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Why not?  Multiple reboots shouldn't make a difference --they all respect the same source material. "Wealthy man uses his millions to dress up like a bat and fight crime"
It's practically as vague (if not even more so) as "Lonely warrior fights monsters with the whip". With such description you can make practically everything - from absurd comedy to the grim dark action, gothic fairy tale or even high school comedy-action (http://unrealitymag.com/index.php/2011/01/11/gotham-high-the-animated-batman-teen-show-that-never-was/).
And I believe opinion of how much new work respects source material would differ from fan to fan (basically open-minded vs close-minded). Especially in extreme cases.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on December 02, 2011, 03:03:18 PM
However Operation: Akumajo goes on, there IS hope(even if it's slim). I'm really estatic today because I just found out Nintendo of America is releasing Xenoblade!!! The rumor was posted by Gamestop and Nintendo of America's twitter confirmed it. Operation: Rainfall was a success. So, the hope is there. Let's just see how we can unite to achieve similar results. It might be harder, as Xenoblade was already in existence. We're asking for things that don't exist(yet). Oh well, callooh! Callay! What a frabjous day!
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 02, 2011, 03:04:05 PM
As for Castlevania, the mythos is actually pretty retarded when you think about it enough. Dracula rises every time he's got a chance just to be struck down by the belmont clan and thier mystic weapon that's origin is just as ridiculous as Bionic Commando's Wife Arm.

Why do we enjoy them? Simple. The Gameplay, the setting, the lone warrior who kills horror movie icons and mythological and Middle Earth creatures, sometimes we enjoy the cheesy story, but how many times can they repeat themselves?

Did you know they did the Cv2 scenario 3 times already?
As enjoyable the games are and the characters are too, even I admit the story is incredibly redundant.

This has much to to with over-milking the cow, like I mentioned earlier.  The premise of the mythos was always the Belmont vs Dracula rivalry, but each game built on that premise in their own unique ways --and not always too constructively I might add...  Instead of the instant gratification of fighting Dracula in almost every single game, it might have been a good idea to see a Castlevania explore more "cat and mouse" styles of storytelling.  Imagine for example, if Dracula's Curse were expanded to cover to 2 or 3 games --where Dracula's character is present in the story menacing and taunting the player, but sending his undead lieutenants to destroy you...  A cliffhanger ending or 2 --then you get treated to a satisfying epic battle in a later game.  Oh well, just a thought...

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As for Reboot, a Reboot is a Re imagining of a story as a whole, taking the parts seen as good and discarding the rest.  In castlevania terms, The setting, the gameplay, and characters were kept.

These points are highly debatable --most notably due to the many obvious non-Castlevania influences.  God of War, Shadow of the Colossus, Dante's Inferno (to name a few) had just as much influence (if not more) than Akumajo Dracula on Lords of Shadow's development.  The fundamental question that needs to be answered is "just how much liberty can be taken reimagining a mythology before it becomes something else entirely?"  Reimagining without any limits can be used as excuse to sell anything --and we believe it has.

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As much as I love the classic games, I really want LoS to be as Distant to the original in terms of story, I love castlevania, but I really want to see something new.

It's a big world out there with plenty of other fantastic games to chose from.  Lords of Shadow is the only one that's deliberately trying to bury Akumajo Dracula.  Hopefully that changes...

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The Story and Mythos were discarded for reasons I understand.

As individual games, Castlevania is great. but as a whole, the story and mythos gets broken and much more confusing, especially as of late with IGA's team. Some games actually amount to nothing, while others are shitty direct sequels.
Some where great, some were not so great. but the broken, confusing mythos can be appreciated as is...

I think we can agree that Castlevania needed a reboot.  There's generation gap that never grew up with Simon Belmont and Konami needs to tap that market.  In fact reboots were first conceived by the comic book industry to sell classic characters and stories to new generations --not to entirely reimagine and reinvent everything (at the risk of alienating older fans).  After almost 75 years, Superman is still Superman.  If Lords of Shadow can throw the Belmont/Dracula rivalry under the bus, what do you think Castlevania might look like 50 years from now --after a couple more of these "reimaginings"?  Twilight, anyone?

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but the real point is this:
Most fan will not accept LoS simply because they cannot let go of thier classic Characters, I say this; Let the classic games be, If you wanna see them again... GO play that game!

I love the old timeline with its nonsensical values and events, but Que Sera Sera.

I'm moving on, but I'm not gonna forget the old Games, and no-one is telling anyone to forget them either.

Perhaps not, but we *are* being told to forget about the 1999 Demon Castle War.

1. What exactly proves this? Most of the criticism towards LoS hardly ever mentions characters as its weak point (mostly, it's about the name-dropping).

2. Even if that were true, so what? What's the point of getting rid of those characters? A random guy doesn't know a thing about "Gabriel Belmont", but "Simon Belmont" might ring a bell.

If "most fans" want to have the characters be reborn in a reboot, trying to make them feel silly for it is trolly logic. If you're fine with not recreating the characters to prove yourself that you're not fixated on the past, good for you. Some people don't see it the same way, but it doesn't mean they're not ready to get something fresh. That's lazy generalizing, IMO.

And yeah, a reboot is about keeping the important things. Which is why I hope LoS is just an alternate universe instead of a reboot.

Well said.

However there is one aspect that I think didn't entirely depend on money - it was storytelling. I mean was it that hard for IGA to write something more competent about Belmont's struggle with Dracula? He could consult with some other people or at least make his storylines simplier, instead trying to apply "twist-after-twist" approach. In many ways his attempt at making "rich" storyline for the games ruined some of them. Some of them failed because he didn't have resources to pull quality execution of his ideas, others because the plot was bad by default. In the worst case scenario those two problems overlapped with each other.

Igarashi clearly had some story-telling ideas that didn't fit very well, but there were some problems before he took over the series...  First off Castlevania had written itself into a corner with Dracula rising once every 100 years, so Igarashi was out to create some fluff to explain what was happening between resurrections.  And there was one other pre-IGA problem I've mentioned a couple time before --the story of Castlevania Bloodlines.  Without Bloodlines desperately trying to make its connection to Bram Stoker's novel, we wouldn't have had PoR or OoE giving us all this nonsense about Belmonts disappearing, not being able to touch the whip and so on...  Then you have other fluff stories CoD and DoS --both of which were disappointing sequels to 2 of the best games in the series...  Still I'm not sure how anyone else could have done much better with the limitations he was working under.  These problems highlight the need for a real reboot --after Demon Castle War, of course.

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I once again agree, but still in some cases there are reasonable expectations and unreasonable ones.

Nothing unreasonable about a Belmont vs Dracula story, is there?

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After LOS was given to the completely different developer it was only natural to wait some (radically) different approach to the series. After first materials about the game were shown I don't think that there were any reasons to wait for this Castlevania to be in vain of the previous games. And even if someone still had any illusions about this - they should've been canceled when it was said that this game will be a reboot.
I undersatnd that some people didn't want to believe that they favorite series will be (could be) changed in this insatllment so much, but waiting for the game to be "like the previous ones", when everything points to the contrary is even less reasonable.

I think most of the fans may have played LoS regardless --most of us do enjoy playing other games besides Castlevania.  LoS was actually strong enough to stand on its own as a separate IP, without capitalizing on the Castlevania brand.  Still I'm sure there were some mainstream players that bought LoS, expecting a legitimate Akumajo Dracula experience, and got hit with some massive buyers remorse when they found out what it really was.

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I have another example of this - recently MK9 was released - this game was a reboot of the series / remake of MK1-MK3 and continuation of the series at the same time. Some people firmly believed that the story of the MK1, MK2 and MK3 will be completely recreated in MK9 to a "T". However all recent examples, when developers revisited that era (in MK Shaolin Monks and MK vs DC Universe) told about contrary - that they will not hesitate to change things even if some of them didn't need any changing in mind of the many fans.
In this case it was tottally reasonable to wait that some elements of the old storyline will be changed, simply because developers did it in the past with even less reasons to do so and because this game was a "reboot" (hence bound to have some changes by default).
Seems some people didn't take all this information to a heart and, when story was unveiled and the fact that there were some major changes was discovered those people were SHOCKED that it happened (commencing unholy amount of shitstorm in the process), when everything pointed that it WILL happen.
Fans want to believe in something, but sometimes they need to be reasonable with their expectations.

Ironically, Mortal Kombat did almost exactly the same thing Star Trek did for its big reboot.  The characters and relationships were remarkably faithful to their origins --but still the story is completely fresh...  Worlds different from what we see happening in LoS.

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It's practically as vague (if not even more so) as "Lonely warrior fights monsters with the whip". With such description you can make practically everything - from absurd comedy to the grim dark action, gothic fairy tale or even high school comedy-action.
And I believe opinion of how much new work respects source material would differ from fan to fan (basically open-minded vs close-minded). Especially in extreme cases.

This gets back to the question I posed earlier "just how much liberty can be taken reimagining a mythology before it becomes something else entirely?"  I've also been thinking about how Cox said ”For me, Castlevania was always about a lone warrior battling supernatural creatures with a whip.” and I realized something rather shocking.  I already mentioned how that comment has nothing to do with the storytelling or mythology, but there's something else...  I realized that's exactly how my wife would describe Castlevania.  Either Cox has a very narrow view --defining the entire Akumajo Dracula series by just one of its many, many gameplay elements --or he's actually played it about as much as my wife.  Go figure.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on December 02, 2011, 03:54:21 PM
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The fundamental question that needs to be answered is "just how much liberty can be taken reimagining a mythology before it becomes something else entirely?"
I stand that if authors have they own vision of the subject nothing should limit them in their creativity. Experiments could have interesting consequences and open possibilities that no-one have ever thought about before.
Of course a win-win situation is when you have two teams - one working on experimental approach, another on the traditional one.

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Lords of Shadow is the only one that's deliberately trying to bury Akumajo Dracula.
I don't think that was the intention. They wanted create a modern blockbuster. The fact that it "blocked" the way to the older approach is not an evil intent by Konami or Cox. It just desire of Konami to make money and give series a much needed new blood.

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If Lords of Shadow can throw the Belmont/Dracula rivalry under the bus, what do you think Castlevania might look like 50 years from now --after a couple more of these "reimaginings"?
AOS / DOS, - those games wasn't that close related to the source material and took plenty of freedom with the mythos. And Dracula wasn't in them, so LOS didn't invent that.
And as I that before there is plenty of stuff to explore in the series besides Dracula. Let's give  the old count some rest.

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Still I'm not sure how anyone else could have done much better with the limitations he was working under.
I think there could be a way to make them good. POR for example had an excellent premise, but it's execution killed it without any mercy.
And I'm agree about Bloodlines - though if IGA really wanted to solve this problem he could retconned it - like he did with CV64 and Legends.

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Still I'm sure there were some mainstream players that bought LoS, expecting a legitimate Akumajo Dracula experience, and got hit with some massive buyers remorse when they found out what it really was.
In the age when there is internet and tonnes of gaming magazines one could blame only himself for such..."unexpected" turn of events.

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Nothing unreasonable about a Belmont vs Dracula story, is there?
I meant that expecting presentation and traditional approach from LOS, when everything pointed out to the contrary was unreasonable.

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The characters and relationships were remarkably faithful to their origins
Nope.
Kitana was victimized, instead of being amazon warrior princess, Raiden become human-like unlike any of his previous versions in the games, Liu become less goody-goody-two shoes and comes of as living human instead of archetype, Mileena became insane monster with a body of porn actress and mind of 5 year old, insted of cunning and treacherous strategist like in the past games. I think if I count how many small and big changes characters had in this game, then it would be easier to point out who wasn't changed in any way at all.

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Either Cox has a very narrow view --defining the entire Akumajo Dracula series by just one of its many
Or maybe it's just his general perception of the series because he deliberately don't want to use pre-existing mythology and want create something of his own.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 02, 2011, 05:10:57 PM
I stand that if authors have they own vision of the subject nothing should limit them in their creativity. Experiments could have interesting consequences and open possibilities that no-one have ever thought about before.
Of course a win-win situation is when you have two teams - one working on experimental approach, another on the traditional one.

There's a significant difference between the author that's writing his own original story, and the author that's been invited to reboot someone else's story.  The reboot author has a much harder job appealing to a new generation of fans, without alienating the old guard.  As for the win-win scenario, we are agreed.  The multiversal approach is the very best solution for the gap that's been created --so we've officially endorsed the idea by incorporating it into our Mission Statement.

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I don't think that was the intention. They wanted create a modern blockbuster. The fact that it "blocked" the way to the older approach is not an evil intent by Konami or Cox. It just desire of Konami to make money and give series a much needed new blood.

A clear example of businessmen dominating the art --but in this case, you also have artists that were more interested in making their own game, than respecting their predecessors' work.

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AOS / DOS, - those games wasn't that close related to the source material and took plenty of freedom with the mythos. And Dracula wasn't in them, so LOS didn't invent that.

This is fundamentally true, but you can't deny that AoS/DoS were still building on the Belmont vs Dracula mythology.  Aria's whole premise was the epilogue for Dracula's destruction --it would have been the perfect way to end the series.  While Dawn was very nicely executed, it ultimately came off as redundant and unnecessary.  If only Aria had spent more time in development, Dawn's best features (like its Julius Mode) could have been implemented to make an amazing game that much more godly.

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In the age when there is internet and tonnes of gaming magazines one could blame only himself for such..."unexpected" turn of events.
I meant that expecting presentation and traditional approach from LOS, when everything pointed out to the contrary was unreasonable.

In terms of the LoS' atmosphere and gameplay, you are certainly correct.  But in terms of the story --Gabriel's descent, Dracula's role, and the Final Boss were all closely guarded secrets.  Some of the trailers were also a tad misleading in these regards --the TGS trailer in particular...
 
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Nope.
Kitana was victimized, instead of being amazon warrior princess, Raiden become human-like unlike any of his previous versions in the games, Liu become less goody-goody-two shoes and comes of as living human instead of archetype, Mileena became insane monster with a body of porn actress and mind of 5 year old, insted of cunning and treacherous strategist like in the past games. I think if I count how many small and big changes characters had in this game, then it would be easier to point out who wasn't changed in any way at all.

And Kirk was born in outer space instead of Iowa.

Look, I get what you're saying here, I really do.  What I'm pointing out is that the tournament, the characters, the alliances, and the motivations are faithful and familiar --even if some of the finer details don't match up 100%.

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Or maybe it's just his general perception of the series because he deliberately don't want to use pre-existing mythology and want create something of his own.

Exactly.  He wanted to do his own thing.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: meanguyjones on December 02, 2011, 07:08:52 PM
I honestly have no idea why you're still using New Super Mario Bros Wii as a reason why Konami should make a 2D Castlevania. If you showed that banner to anyone working in the game industry as to why 2D games are still viable or can still sell well (not saying they can't) you'd get laughed at so hard.

Theres a huge difference between Nintendo doing a 2D game and other companies doing one. If you want this to be successful you're going to have to be a bit more realistic in your approach.

Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on December 02, 2011, 08:48:00 PM
I don't know how many times I've said it. At least twice. Nintendo is made of money and has former game devs in the upper management. The difference between Nintendo making a 2D game and Konami making a 2D game, is that Nintendo can afford a bomb. It doesn't matter if it succeeds or fails, they can afford it.

Capcom Made Mega Man Legends. It bombed. Still, they greenlit Legends 2, and it in fact had higher production values. It still did not do well.

Both games actually ended up putting Capcom in the red.

The difference between Nintendo and Capcom, for example, is Nintendo would not have gone in the red because of 2 bombed 3D games.

(Theres my trademark Capcom/Megaman example XD )

Do you understand what I mean?  Nintendo can make a 2.5D Mario game. Konami cant afford to take the financial risk.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 02, 2011, 09:00:09 PM
I honestly have no idea why you're still using New Super Mario Bros Wii as a reason why Konami should make a 2D Castlevania. If you showed that banner to anyone working in the game industry as to why 2D games are still viable or can still sell well (not saying they can't) you'd get laughed at so hard.

Theres a huge difference between Nintendo doing a 2D game and other companies doing one. If you want this to be successful you're going to have to be a bit more realistic in your approach.

As noted earlier, New Super Mario Bros Wii is particularly relevant, because Super Mario 64 practically invented 3-D platforming as we know it.  Moreover, the Super Mario Galaxy Games were absolutely AMAZING!  If I had predicted that a 2-D Mario game could outsell Super Mario Galaxy 1 & 2 combined, sure I would have been laughed at.  But that wouldn't have made them any less wrong, would it?  Makes we wish I could go back and bet my life savings to take advantage of all that 3-D bias --I'd be able to retire. lol

As for Nintendo being Nintendo, that was discussed ad Nauseum a couple pages back if you want to read up.  The bottom line is that Nintendo is successful because they they invest in ideas, and more importantly --they invest in quality.  If the rest of the industry had the ambition to be like Nintendo, there would be a lot less shovelware --and choosing the right games might actually be difficult.

I don't know how many times I've said it. At least twice. Nintendo is made of money and has former game devs in the upper management. The difference between Nintendo making a 2D game and Konami making a 2D game, is that Nintendo can afford a bomb. It doesn't matter if it succeeds or fails, they can afford it.

Capcom Made Mega Man Legends. It bombed. Still, they greenlit Legends 2, and it in fact had higher production values. It still did not do well.

Both games actually ended up putting Capcom in the red.

The difference between Nintendo and Capcom, for example, is Nintendo would not have gone in the red because of 2 bombed 3D games.

(Theres my trademark Capcom/Megaman example XD )

Do you understand what I mean?  Nintendo can make a 2.5D Mario game. Konami cant afford to take the financial risk.

I get it.  What you're trying to say is that Nintendo has more venture capital.  Point taken.  But what I was saying a few pages back was that Nintendo wasn't always the all-powerful company it is today.  Nintendo suffered with the rest of the industry when everything crashed back in the early 80's --and Nintendo's response was to gamble their entire future on the Famicom/NES --and force high quality standards on themselves and all of their licensees.  Talk about taking a risk --for Konami to take a 2-D Castlevania seriously is risking nothing in comparison.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Dremn on December 02, 2011, 09:13:55 PM
Man you are a spoiled shit. This constant ego trip you have like you own some part of the franchise is extremely immature, I bet Konami's PR hates you.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 02, 2011, 09:20:24 PM
Man you are a spoiled shit. This constant ego trip you have like you own some part of the franchise is extremely immature, I bet Konami's PR hates you.

Flamebait.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: crisis on December 02, 2011, 09:40:20 PM
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Made Mega Man Legends. It bombed. Still, they greenlit Legends 2, and it in fact had higher production values. It still did not do well.

The Legends series isn't the only Capcom license that bombed, they have quite a few *coughLostPlanet2cough*
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on December 02, 2011, 09:43:42 PM
We aren't talking about then, Cecil. We are talking about NOW.

Back then, 2D games were the norm.

Nowadays, 2D games are a bigger risk. Why? Because they are not quite the norm they used to be. Technology has evolved way past that. And therefore, making a game like that, is a financial risk. They cannot be sure that people will buy it. People might not go for a "lower tech" game, a 2D game, in a world of 3D games.

There are a ton of different factors, but the main fact is it is a financial risk. it deviates from the current norm, and therefore, is a risk.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: meanguyjones on December 02, 2011, 10:20:28 PM
New Super Mario Bros Wii didn't sell that many copies because it was 2D, it sold that well because FOUR PLAYER MARIO.


It outsold Galaxy 1 and 2 because OH MY GOD FOUR PLAYER MARIO WITH AGGRESSIVE AD CAMPAIGN. I'm pretty sure it would have sold the same amount if it was a 3D game.

Using it as an example for Operation Akumajo is silly. Why not use Little Big Planet as an example instead?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: TheouAegis on December 02, 2011, 11:31:44 PM
People might not go for a "lower tech" game, a 2D game, in a world of 3D games.

*looks at the last three games he played on his brand new Nintendo 3DS*
(Advance Wars Dual Strike)
(Order of Ecclesia)
(The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords)

What is this "3D" that you kids speak of?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: C Belmont on December 02, 2011, 11:50:18 PM
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There are a ton of different factors, but the main fact is it is a financial risk. it deviates from the current norm, and therefore, is a risk

You do realise that Rebooting a long running franchise is a pretty risky move as well right?
and besides it's not like Konami hasn't created a modern 2D game before, I suspect that their reason for not making another probably has more to do with greed than it being such a huge financial risk to them.

Also we've had quite a few 2D games released lately and Konami seemed relatively content to continue creating 2D Castlevania games when this was an even less common occurrence.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Ghetto-blasteR on December 03, 2011, 02:30:25 AM
New Super Mario Bros Wii didn't sell that many copies because it was 2D, it sold that well because FOUR PLAYER MARIO.

this.

sorry, but i don't think that the success of new super mario bros wii is indicative of anything for 2d games in general.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: C Belmont on December 03, 2011, 03:10:39 AM
seriously?
you really think that people bought the game just because more than one person can play it at the same time?
Gee maybe they should have just made castlevania a 4 player game instead of rebooting it then or better yet a 1000 player game then it would sell like hotcakes right?!

I certainly didn't buy Super Mario Bros Wii just because of it's multiplayer options, and even if people did buy it for it's multiplayer options it's sucess would still indicate that the genre is not entirely outdated yet.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: A-Yty on December 03, 2011, 05:24:22 AM
Something that shifts between 2.5D and 3D might be the way to go for CV.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: DarkPrinceAlucard on December 03, 2011, 05:36:14 AM
Something that shifts between 2.5D and 3D might be the way to go for CV.

You mean like Megaman X7?

But better?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: A-Yty on December 03, 2011, 05:53:50 AM
I can't name any examples of that style right away, but I'm sure all you guys can :)

All in all, MM might not be a bad example, as it's another 20+ old series that seems to have trouble moving beyond 2D.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on December 03, 2011, 08:09:32 AM
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There's a significant difference between the author that's writing his own original story, and the author that's been invited to reboot someone else's story.
I agree somewhat.
Though there is thin line between what defines reboot and original work sometimes. As for me LOS is on the fine line between being based on past CV's and being new.

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This is fundamentally true, but you can't deny that AoS/DoS were still building on the Belmont vs Dracula mythology.
I agree that it was based on the Castlevania mythos. However, in my opinion, AOS did it in a very wrong way, turning plot into typical anime ripoff and shifting the tone of the story very far from what I expected from Castlevania.
It's practically the same thing that was done with LOS, aside from being continuation of the original story.

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But in terms of the story --Gabriel's descent, Dracula's role, and the Final Boss were all closely guarded secrets.  Some of the trailers were also a tad misleading in these regards --the TGS trailer in particular...
It should have been this way - what interest in playing the game when you know the whole story beforehand?
It was not obvious that story would be so different from previous games, however that could've been expected.

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What I'm pointing out is that the tournament, the characters, the alliances, and the motivations are faithful and familiar --even if some of the finer details don't match up 100%.
Still it pissed of many fans who considered that any changes in the story were horrible and ruined series forever. Some even declined to buy any MK games until there would be another reboot with a new story. Doesn't it remind you about anything?  ;)

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Gee maybe they should have just made castlevania a 4 player game instead of rebooting it then or better yet a 1000 player game then it would sell like hotcakes right?!
Harmony of Despair?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Ghetto-blasteR on December 03, 2011, 09:18:14 AM
seriously?
you really think that people bought the game just because more than one person can play it at the same time?

yes. are you denying that the multiplayer component contributed to its sales? not only that, but it's multiplayer MARIO.

Gee maybe they should have just made castlevania a 4 player game instead of rebooting it then or better yet a 1000 player game then it would sell like hotcakes right?!

where did anyone say or even suggest this?

I certainly didn't buy Super Mario Bros Wii just because of it's multiplayer options, and even if people did buy it for it's multiplayer options it's sucess would still indicate that the genre is not entirely outdated yet.

i don't buy this. everyone citing the mario example needs to remember that it's mario. it's always been a household name.

again, i maintain that the success of new super mario bros wii is not indicative of anything for 2d games in general.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on December 03, 2011, 11:35:20 AM
You mean like Megaman X7?

But better?

Or... Sonic Unleashed/Colors/Generations.

Which switches between 2D and 3D.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 03, 2011, 11:47:26 AM
We aren't talking about then, Cecil. We are talking about NOW.

I understand that.  You made a point about how Nintendo has massive amounts of venture capital to risk --I was trying to explain how they arrived in that position.  And more importantly, how Nintendo was much worse off then than Konami is now --but still managed to claw their way out of the abyss with the entire industry riding on their back.  Quality mitigates risk.

If a company has a good idea, and they invest in quality to help that idea reach its fullest potential --they will not only be successful, they will be the envy of their industry --much like Nintendo is today.

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Back then, 2D games were the norm.

Nowadays, 2D games are a bigger risk. Why? Because they are not quite the norm they used to be. Technology has evolved way past that. And therefore, making a game like that, is a financial risk. They cannot be sure that people will buy it. People might not go for a "lower tech" game, a 2D game, in a world of 3D games.

There are a ton of different factors, but the main fact is it is a financial risk. it deviates from the current norm, and therefore, is a risk.

The only real risk for the 2-D artform is the 3-D bias that still exists in some corners of the marketplace.  Like I've been saying, this is a trendy industry.  3-D games have been around for 15 years and the market is fully saturated --they just don't have the *wow* factor they did back in the 90's.  Now that we have machines that are powerful enough to render every blade of grass and every grain of dirt, the quality of a game's content is far more relevant than flashy graphics or even this 2-D vs 3-D paradigm.  Overpriced shovelware won't sell anymore just because it has flashy 3-D graphics.

As for the technology evolving past 2-D...  Let me put this a different way...  The Dracula X Chronicles could NOT have been ported over to the DS --or the GBA, the SNES, or the NES.  Why?  Because it was made for the PSP and actually *USED* the power of technology that was available to reach its full potential for that system.  If it had been made for the PS3 or Xbox 360, it could have used the power of those technologies for even more impressive results.  We talked about Rebirth earlier.  Rebirth is an example of NOT using the power of the available technology and failing to reach its full potential.

New Super Mario Bros Wii didn't sell that many copies because it was 2D, it sold that well because FOUR PLAYER MARIO.

It outsold Galaxy 1 and 2 because OH MY GOD FOUR PLAYER MARIO WITH AGGRESSIVE AD CAMPAIGN. I'm pretty sure it would have sold the same amount if it was a 3D game.

New Super Mario Bros Wii didn't sell just because it was 2-D, it sold because it was a very high-quality product that just happened to be executed in 2-D.  Moreover, it outsold both Super Mario Galaxy games because it was far more committed to tickling the nostalgia of mature gamers --many of whom now have families.  The simultaneous multiplayer is a selling point for parents sharing Mario with the kids, but excluding it wouldn't have damaged the sales as much as you're probably thinking.  Just look at where the inspiration came from --New Super Mario Bros for the DS has 26 Million sold, and that was strictly a single player experience.

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Using it as an example for Operation Akumajo is silly. Why not use Little Big Planet as an example instead?

Little Big Planet is just a more complicated comparison.  Unlike Mario and Castlevania, LBP is a new IP with no 3-D counterpart to compare it to --so the only real talking point would be the sales data.  Although I have good sources for hard copy sales, I can't find any reliable sources for digital distribution.  This game was also available free of charge for 30 days to anyone that signed into the PSN as part of Sony's "Welcome Back" program --I suspect that alone made quite an impact on LBP's exposure.  And if that weren't enough, there's a major genre gap due to the game's world builder features.  Like I said, a more complicated comparison.

yes. are you denying that the multiplayer component contributed to its sales? not only that, but it's multiplayer MARIO.

i don't buy this. everyone citing the mario example needs to remember that it's mario. it's always been a household name.

again, i maintain that the success of new super mario bros wii is not indicative of anything for 2d games in general.

The concept here is 2-D Mario outselling 3-D Mario to the point of humiliation --and you're struggling to explain it.  Multiplayer is a nice feature, but its absence would hardly break the game.  Again I would point to the DS version sales to support that view.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Ghetto-blasteR on December 03, 2011, 01:11:26 PM
The concept here is 2-D Mario outselling 3-D Mario to the point of humiliation --and your 3-D bias can't explain it.  Multiplayer is a nice feature, but its absence would hardly break the game.  Again I would point to the DS version sales to support that view.

i don't actually disagree that certain games are better in 2d. in fact i haven't commented on this. but notice how you had to rely on the DS mario to demonstrate your point. which leads me back into saying, again, that the wii mario doesn't say anything for 2d games in general. it confounds way too many variables. i realize this point may seem relatively trivial; fine. but that's why the banner in your sig isn't very convincing to me, when it shows four players reliving one of the most classic videogames of all time. (i think that's how this topic got brought up.)

also, i don't think people appreciate being told they apparently have a "3d bias". why would you go and assume that, cecil?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 03, 2011, 01:35:35 PM
i don't actually disagree that certain games are better in 2d. in fact i haven't commented on this. but notice how you had to rely on the DS mario to demonstrate your point. which leads me back into saying, again, that the wii mario doesn't say anything for 2d games in general. it confounds way too many variables. i realize this point may seem relatively trivial; fine. but that's why the banner in your sig isn't very convincing to me, when it shows four players reliving one of the most classic videogames of all time. (i think that's how this topic got brought up.)

You're certainly correct about all the variables --and discerning which ones are most relevant certainly widens the debate.  Bringing up New Super Mario Bros for DS gives the multiplayer issue some extra context, but it also muddies the water by comparing a portable game to a console game.

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also, i don't think people appreciate being told they apparently have a "3d bias". why would you go and assume that, cecil?

Sorry Ghetto, that's my mistake.   :-[  I got lazy and wasn't paying close attention to who's comment I was responding to --that's what I get for responding to so many at once.  I called out Flame for 3-D bias earlier in the topic and you had nothing to do with that part of the discussion.  I'll correct my last post.  Please accept my apology.   :)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sindra on December 03, 2011, 05:46:35 PM
Alright Cecil.....you asked for any aid in the cause of relying fans to your plight, and I am here to deliver.

However, I think Operation: Akumajou has received too negative a light. Perhaps I can suggest something else:

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsindra.brinkster.net%2Fmisc%2Foccupy%2520copy.jpg&hash=f66bcd1c5e9fe4503203542f158444d8)

OCCUPY: CASTLEVANIA

Just as O:A has banked on the success of Operation Rainfall, Occupy Castlevania can bank on the...errr....well, popularity of Occupy Wallstreet.

With Occupy: Castlevania, you can easily simplify your goals, while not making them unattainable or outrageous.

Notice how these are all fan-based appeals to Konami, that are both polite and not overreaching. They ostracize neither the new games or the old games, and simply make suggestions for compromise between the two types of fans of the series. There are no demands. There is no begging. There is only invitation to Konami and all those involved in the current development of the Castlevania series to consider these ideas from long-time devoted fans of the series. You use this polite, concise type of request, and BASH THEM OVER THE HEAD with it, over and over again. Every week, a new tweet or poke to their social media pages about it. Kill them with steadfast kindness and considerate determination.....and you can be surprised what it gets you.

(that 85% thing is a estimation of how many oldschool fans there are compared to new-school fans who'd be up for this....if anyone has more realistic numbers, please let me know and I'll change it. It's probably closer to 60% or less)

If you don't feel this is your type of thing...I'll see if one of the other organizations will handle the idea. Simply a suggestion.

Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Vrakanox on December 03, 2011, 06:00:14 PM
How about doing like. "10,000 strong for making SotN2." Ya know that Alucard game from TGS 2008  ;)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on December 03, 2011, 06:30:47 PM
Occypy Castlevania... I had myself a good lol.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: C Belmont on December 03, 2011, 06:32:43 PM
Quote
How about doing like. "10,000 strong for making SotN2." Ya know that Alucard game from TGS 2008 

Bah! there is no way that I would support something like that

@Sindra
If dot point two were less specific to that darn demon castle war people keep making a big fuss over I'd probably be 100% behind those points
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sindra on December 03, 2011, 06:39:15 PM
@Sindra
If dot point two were less specific to that darn demon castle war people keep making a big fuss over I'd probably be 100% behind those points

Well, I only put it specifically because it was pretty much the one thing people WERE calmouring for the most to be made, that would wrap up the original timeline. I didn't say it had to be the only game, but it made the most sense.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 04, 2011, 12:04:51 AM
Alright Cecil.....you asked for any aid in the cause of relying fans to your plight, and I am here to deliver.

However, I think Operation: Akumajou has received too negative a light. Perhaps I can suggest something else:

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsindra.brinkster.net%2Fmisc%2Foccupy%2520copy.jpg&hash=f66bcd1c5e9fe4503203542f158444d8)

OCCUPY: CASTLEVANIA

Just as O:A has banked on the success of Operation Rainfall, Occupy Castlevania can bank on the...errr....well, popularity of Occupy Wallstreet.

With Occupy: Castlevania, you can easily simplify your goals, while not making them unattainable or outrageous.
  • Consideration from Konami to wrap up the original timeline (presumably with the Demon Castle War) if they plan on going ahead with the new timeline exclusively
  • If the Demon Castle War game is made, the request to make it 2D or 2.5D in the vein of the older games
  • Suggestions that compilations be released, such as a Castlevania Classic Collection of the old games (NES-->Rondo/Bloodlines)
  • Request that more common ground be found between the Lords of Shadow games and the original games (ie: catchier music, deeper connection between vampire lore, slightly less high-fantasy and more gothic creepy adventure, etc.)

Notice how these are all fan-based appeals to Konami, that are both polite and not overreaching. They ostracize neither the new games or the old games, and simply make suggestions for compromise between the two types of fans of the series. There are no demands. There is no begging. There is only invitation to Konami and all those involved in the current development of the Castlevania series to consider these ideas from long-time devoted fans of the series. You use this polite, concise type of request, and BASH THEM OVER THE HEAD with it, over and over again. Every week, a new tweet or poke to their social media pages about it. Kill them with steadfast kindness and considerate determination.....and you can be surprised what it gets you.

(that 85% thing is a estimation of how many oldschool fans there are compared to new-school fans who'd be up for this....if anyone has more realistic numbers, please let me know and I'll change it. It's probably closer to 60% or less)

If you don't feel this is your type of thing...I'll see if one of the other organizations will handle the idea. Simply a suggestion.

Sindra, I just sent you a personal message.  You should find its contents most interesting...
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: kadosho on December 04, 2011, 07:40:49 PM
When I hear about articles like this, its tough to turn away. I adhere to the LoS being in CV title only.. honestly its meant to be a side saga, not part of the entire lineage. Otherwise we have a broken series all over again. Honestly I find myself in the middle regarding whether to check out LoS, or let it be. I've heard and read so many mixed comments its tough to actually validate what I think unless I actually play it. But seeing this fandom shifting gears, I can't help but support some ideas.

For one, don't attack those who are actually creating the title. Vouch for some missed ideas, don't put anyone down. We might actually see future chapters evolve from this new engine, and it could envelope both 2D or 3D.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on December 05, 2011, 11:07:47 AM
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they just don't have the *wow* factor they did back in the 90's
Neither have 2D games.
Nowadays games are recoginzed for its graphics and for its gameplay. However 3D is still more popular simply because it was more prevalent in the last decade and 2D games are viewed as thing of the past or stuff for portable consoles.

As for "Occupy Castlevania" - it's goals sound more plausiable than OA, however I think such name have negative, almost forcible connotation.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 05, 2011, 09:31:09 PM
Neither have 2D games.
Nowadays games are recoginzed for its graphics and for its gameplay. However 3D is still more popular simply because it was more prevalent in the last decade and 2D games are viewed as thing of the past or stuff for portable consoles.


Video games have always been recognized for their graphics and gameplay, but there was a once a time when the novelty of a 3-D presentation had such "wow factor" that it blinded players to the awful, clunky, polygon graphics of the N64/PSX --that era is long past.  If you go back and play games like Mario 64, Final Fantasy VII, Resident Evil, Ocarina of Time, etc --it's quite obvious that most of those graphics haven't aged as gracefully as the SNES generation.  In fact, the best games of that generation have mostly been remade already.  Although 3-D games dominate retail, that really has more to do with developers flooding the market, than the sales of individual games.  When you look at what's out there, only a few 2-D games have been made for home consoles, but those few are remarkable, high quality products that sell very, very well.  It's also worth noting that most of those games have a high nostalgia factor that appeals to mature gamers.  There may well be a generation gap, but that's hard to say without an in-depth market analysis.  One thing is for certain though --2-D gameplay can compete and outsell 3-D when given proper treatment.  There's more than enough evidence to challenge anyone who believes 2-D games are a dead, obsolete artform.  And there's a whole world of possibilities for Castlevania if the suits at Konami set aside their 3-D biases and think outside the box.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Ghetto-blasteR on December 05, 2011, 11:13:16 PM
One thing is for certain though --2-D gameplay can compete and outsell 3-D when given proper treatment.  There's more than enough evidence to challenge anyone who believes 2-D games are a dead, obsolete artform.  And there's a whole world of possibilities for Castlevania if the suits at Konami set aside their 3-D biases and think outside the box.

i dig this. well, going as far as to say that 2d can outsell 3d isn't entirely clear, but it's not unbelievable either.

probably the choice of 2d or 3d though is going to be largely dependent on the type of game you're talking about. easiest example: i don't see how you could possibly have a baseball game in 2d. for something like CV, on the other hand, i can understand why you'd say that the suits are 3d-biased in terms of selecting 3d over 2d (but i wouldn't necessarily extend that generalization to all games).

i think 2d gameplay can thrive, especially if you throw in little camera tricks to make it look 3d. or, for example, in duke nukem manhattan project, even though the stages were essentially 2d, sometimes the ground would jut out into the third dimension and the character's path would just follow it, with the camera turning along to match. so basically 2d but not purely so.

but despite my skepticism about 3d CV, i think 1) LoS really wasn't bad at all (its 3d-ness was not the real source of its flaws), and 2) they shouldn't stop at least trying to help CV make the dimensional leap. here, two simultaneous projects would be convenient. probably something like 2d for handhelds, 3d for console, kinda like it is right now. let's be realistic: it's hard to imagine a reason for them to make a 2d CV ONLY for consoles (other than HoD in which you have to view a giant freaking map all at once)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: KaZudra on December 06, 2011, 12:05:22 AM
i dig this. well, going as far as to say that 2d can outsell 3d isn't entirely clear, but it's not unbelievable either.

probably the choice of 2d or 3d though is going to be largely dependent on the type of game you're talking about. easiest example: i don't see how you could possibly have a baseball game in 2d. for something like CV, on the other hand, i can understand why you'd say that the suits are 3d-biased in terms of selecting 3d over 2d (but i wouldn't necessarily extend that generalization to all games).

i think 2d gameplay can thrive, especially if you throw in little camera tricks to make it look 3d. or, for example, in duke nukem manhattan project, even though the stages were essentially 2d, sometimes the ground would jut out into the third dimension and the character's path would just follow it, with the camera turning along to match. so basically 2d but not purely so.

but despite my skepticism about 3d CV, i think 1) LoS really wasn't bad at all (its 3d-ness was not the real source of its flaws), and 2) they shouldn't stop at least trying to help CV make the dimensional leap. here, two simultaneous projects would be convenient. probably something like 2d for handhelds, 3d for console, kinda like it is right now. let's be realistic: it's hard to imagine a reason for them to make a 2d CV ONLY for consoles (other than HoD in which you have to view a giant freaking map all at once)

Konami should REALLY play Sonic Generations (either versions) on Modern sonic.

The Console version Knew that sonic could not be in full 3D and have all of it's charm, so they added 2d platforming sections in the stage, a Castlevania game with a simular design would unarguably please both the fans of the 3d vanias as well as the 2dvanias.

The 3DS version, acts like Duke: Manhattan with a full scaled 2d stage which uses various camera tricks to add the not-so-flat effect.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on December 06, 2011, 11:42:57 AM
Another thing is that 3D games add a third dimension, which changes things. Makes a game bigger and well, 3D. you can do more with 3D.

you can have environments and such. 3D adds more options for the game.

Thats a reason why 2D has sort of been left behind or left for portables. Because 3D in terms of gameplay, offers more.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 06, 2011, 01:39:45 PM
Another thing is that 3D games add a third dimension, which changes things. Makes a game bigger and well, 3D. you can do more with 3D.

you can have environments and such. 3D adds more options for the game.

Thats a reason why 2D has sort of been left behind or left for portables. Because 3D in terms of gameplay, offers more.

The best 3-D games are those that use the X Y and Z axises effectively.  Sadly, some games are 3-D for the sake of presentation moreso than actual gameplay.  For example, Curse of Darkness could have easily been on overhead perspective 2-D game --anyone remember that clocktower stage?  One thing Lords of Shadow fixed was reintroducing vertical environments --unfortunately, this created more wall crawling than actual Castlevania-style platforming.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on December 06, 2011, 03:44:40 PM
Another thing is that 3D games add a third dimension, which changes things. Makes a game bigger and well, 3D. you can do more with 3D.

you can have environments and such. 3D adds more options for the game.

Thats a reason why 2D has sort of been left behind or left for portables. Because 3D in terms of gameplay, offers more.
I think what 3D adds also limits it, to an extent. Sure, you can go in more directions, but the awkwardness of "invisible walls" never been more, well, awkward. You can also only do so much, rendering-wise, unless you want to waste years trying to create a fully 3D, high detailed world. You could always opt for a sandbox title, but even those have their limitations. I always found that rather disheartening, though. With high res 3D games, you can render so much and squeeze that on a single disc. What you dream of, back in the day when 2D gaming was more mainstream, was how 3D would "flesh out" the 2D worlds's porportions so that, maybe one day, we MIGHT get a CV game where you traverse a castle as big as that in SotN, including the depth you COULDN'T venture into but was always aparent in the backgrounds(doors, staircases, spacious areas and corridors). But in the end, it seems like with each advance, they tighten the hands a little more. "Oh, that would take too much time! You can't possibly render ALL of that in 3D!". I'd actually love a massive 3D castle(have a 3D CV game take place solely in a castle, and make it gigantic), but that would probably never happen. To me, it's like that one episode of Twilight Zone, where they guy finally has all the peace and time in the world to read all the books in the library, but breaks his glasses. You get a good thing, and it comes with a sacrifice.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Ghetto-blasteR on December 06, 2011, 04:56:56 PM
One thing Lords of Shadow fixed was reintroducing vertical environments --unfortunately, this created more wall crawling than actual Castlevania-style platforming.

hmm, this could've been easily fixed if there was some simple combat that happened while wall crawling (you'd get attacked, and you'd be equipped with a very basic attack) and if the path of the wall crawl wasn't linear, so you'd have to make strategic choices.

To me, it's like that one episode of Twilight Zone, where they guy finally has all the peace and time in the world to read all the books in the library, but breaks his glasses. You get a good thing, and it comes with a sacrifice.

ahahahahahaha gold.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Anonym on December 09, 2011, 10:43:18 AM
Sindra, I just sent you a personal message.  You should find its contents most interesting...

Ok, so what just happened here? I'm not going to ask what you wrote to her but clearly it was something intimidating since she's nowhere to be seen.
Which is a shame because her suggestions were all fine and, most noteworthy, there were no demands being made, just polite language all through.

While I admire your willingness to take a stand and honestly express how you are feeling, in my mind, there is no doubt that Sindras approach is overwhelmingly more appealing to both fans and developers.

Your initiave was a great achievement but I feel the whole operation can reach more people if you think about the language you are using. One of the reasons I personally chose not to join in the effort was because of it.

Be well and good luck! :)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on December 09, 2011, 10:53:17 AM
Ok, so what just happened here? I'm not going to ask what you wrote to her but clearly it was something intimidating since she's nowhere to be seen.
Which is a shame because her suggestions were all fine and, most noteworthy, there were no demands being made, just polite language all through.

While I admire your willingness to take a stand and honestly express how you are feeling, in my mind, there is no doubt that Sindras approach is overwhelmingly more appealing to both fans and developers.

Your initiave was a great achievement but I feel the whole operation can reach more people if you think about the language you are using. One of the reasons I personally chose not to join in the effort was because of it.

Be well and good luck! :)

I don't think that's it.  Sindra's just not as active as the rest of us.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: A-Yty on December 09, 2011, 12:03:41 PM
Just playing hard to get amirite guys
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 09, 2011, 12:56:38 PM
Ok, so what just happened here? I'm not going to ask what you wrote to her but clearly it was something intimidating since she's nowhere to be seen.
Which is a shame because her suggestions were all fine and, most noteworthy, there were no demands being made, just polite language all through.

While I admire your willingness to take a stand and honestly express how you are feeling, in my mind, there is no doubt that Sindras approach is overwhelmingly more appealing to both fans and developers.

Your initiave was a great achievement but I feel the whole operation can reach more people if you think about the language you are using. One of the reasons I personally chose not to join in the effort was because of it.

Be well and good luck! :)

Don't read too much into it.  Sindra's been somewhat critical but always fair-minded, and I respect her greatly.  I passed along some private information that I'm not ready to make public --gave her just a few things to think about.  When she suggested Occupy Castlevania, it sounded like she was willing to take the initiative and lead by example.  I am patiently awaiting her response...
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: uzo on December 09, 2011, 01:56:32 PM
I'd follow Sindra if she leads the charge in a completely new organization with no ties of Operation Akumajo.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Esco on December 09, 2011, 05:34:54 PM
11 pages of this........... really?

With all the whining about Konami that goes on in these forums here is a thought: why don't you all stop being lazy, go out and teach yourselves some basic coding/game design, gather up your talents, get together, and MAKE A GAME!?

Seriously.......... it's not that hard peoples.  And stuff like this (complaining about recent Castlevania games) has been going on for AT LEAST 2-3 years here. In that time many of you could have learned sooooooo much about doing it already. :rollseyes:
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Anonym on December 09, 2011, 05:48:26 PM
Don't read too much into it.  Sindra's been somewhat critical but always fair-minded, and I respect her greatly.  I passed along some private information that I'm not ready to make public --gave her just a few things to think about.  When she suggested Occupy Castlevania, it sounded like she was willing to take the initiative and lead by example.  I am patiently awaiting her response...

I see.
By the way, what did you think about her project, as a whole and the specific appeals she mentioned.
Is there something from it you think you could use?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: C Belmont on December 09, 2011, 06:10:42 PM
Quote
With all the whining about Konami that goes on in these forums here is a thought: why don't you all stop being lazy, go out and teach yourselves some basic coding/game design, gather up your talents, get together, and MAKE A GAME!?


Two reasons
1. Fangames are illegal, they are a breach of copyright and
2. If the community were to actually band together and create a quality Fangame game then Konami would be well within their rights to shut it down whenever they felt like it and the likelihood of this occurring would only increase with the quality of such a project.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Neobelmont on December 09, 2011, 07:16:11 PM
I'am so freaking lost right now I have not been in here for a while what the crap is happening? To stressed right now with finals coming up so be gentle on me. Are we talking 2-d, new teams what? I am lost  :-\
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: uzo on December 09, 2011, 07:20:04 PM
go out and teach yourselves some basic coding/game design, gather up your talents, get together, and MAKE A GAME!?

 8)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Esco on December 09, 2011, 07:44:54 PM


Two reasons
1. Fangames are illegal, they are a breach of copyright and

This in itself is wrong; there are plenty of fan games out there that say INSPIRED BY **INSERT GAME NAME**, and are made from scratch, and thus are not illegal.  Even though we all know what they are actually a clone of. :rollseyes:

On that note: if you are soooooooooo worried about the legality of such things, why do you have signature that uses copyright material in itself? That is what we call hypocrisy.  :-\

Quote
2. If the community were to actually band together and create a quality Fangame game then Konami would be well within their rights to shut it down whenever they felt like it and the likelihood of this occurring would only increase with the quality of such a project.

What a piss poor excuse to be lazy, and not even try. Never heard of the SOR remake have you? Or SOG I assume (quake 2: generations basically)?

Plenty of community projects get completed, without issues.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: TheouAegis on December 09, 2011, 08:06:47 PM
It's only illegal if you use the same graphics and use the same title. Leave "Castlevania" out of the title until Konami OKs it. Simple as that.

Then you have stuff int he history of gaming like the Shining series. USed to be made by Camelot, now it's made by some guys who for whatever reason gave their own game the Shining name even though it doesn't play like any of the Shining games (except maybe Wisdom). Then there's Counter-Strike. Originally was a free-to-play mod for Half-Life, then Valve turned its Source Engine sequel into a money-maker (for a year or two). The They Hunger mod for Half-Life is even distributed by Steam, even though it would fall under the "illegal fan game" category.

Seem also to forget that Konami isn't a single group of programmers, it's a company that hires various programmers to make games for it. Same with Sega and Nintendo and Microsoft. Even Square(soft) is comprised of differing groups of programmers. Probably no one has offered up a tantalizing sequel for Castlevania to IGA, that's why we only got LoS.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 09, 2011, 08:32:16 PM
11 pages of this........... really?

With all the whining about Konami that goes on in these forums here is a thought: why don't you all stop being lazy, go out and teach yourselves some basic coding/game design, gather up your talents, get together, and MAKE A GAME!?

Seriously.......... it's not that hard peoples.  And stuff like this (complaining about recent Castlevania games) has been going on for AT LEAST 2-3 years here. In that time many of you could have learned sooooooo much about doing it already. :rollseyes:

In a perfect world, the fans would have all the time, resources, passion, and talent for that sort of thing...  Hats off to those of you that do --your guys' handiwork really puts Konami to shame sometimes.

I see.
By the way, what did you think about her project, as a whole and the specific appeals she mentioned.
Is there something from it you think you could use?

I think the differences she's highlighting are more in style of engagement than the substance of the objectives.  With that said, a competition would be counter-productive if we ultimately want the same things --especially when you consider how fractured the Castlevania fanbase already is.  As for implementing her ideas --my door is wide, wide open.  I'm more than willing to negotiate with anyone who's ready to step up and make some real contributions with their time and energy --even if that means compromising the activism.  Just remember, even if drastic changes are made, there's always going someone complaining about something.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: C Belmont on December 09, 2011, 09:29:18 PM
@Esco: Judging by the fact that your own pet project is a hack of a popular Castlevania game it would be pointless arguing the legality of fangames. Nothing short of a cease and desist notice would sway your stance.

The main point that I am trying to get across is OA has very little to gain from a fan game project. It isn't going to help the operation's reputation with Konami by pursuing illegal means and they would have no issues with shutting down such a project.

The possibility of a fangame project being shutdown is not a "piss poor excuse to be lazy". It would be stupid to pursue something you know is going to get pulled the moment it gains any popularity. Chrono resurrection is a perfect example of this.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Esco on December 10, 2011, 12:01:11 AM
runs in a circle

(POSTED BY ME ABOVE)
Quote
On that note: if you are soooooooooo worried about the legality of such things, why do you have signature that uses copyright material in itself? That is what we call hypocrisy.  :-\

You also obviously ignored when I stated that there are in fact ways to make fan games that are 100% legal.  :rollseyes:


In a perfect world, the fans would have all the time, resources, passion, and talent for that sort of thing...  Hats off to those of you that do --your guys' handiwork really puts Konami to shame sometimes.

Don't get me wrong Cecil: I give you mad props for getting active and actually doing something. Especially in the face of all those people who just seem to be criticizing every stupid little thing about what you are doing. My comment was geared more towards all those people who have the dedication level of a grapefruit, and can do nothing but criticize everyone else's work all day long, while contributing little to nothing at all. Which is a big reason why most professional game developers, and even fan project members generally do not associate with the public much, if at all.

I will say this also: a perfect world has nothing to do with it. Taking the initiative (like you have done) and not being lazy is what makes the difference. And sadly, most people don't want to do that. It is this exact reason why so many projects go unfinished, with their makers saying that it is due to life being too busy, or lack of support, or the sky not being the right color, or **INSERT EXCUSE HERE.**

If we had more people with your level of drive, this "community" would be much better off than it is, as would the Castlevania franchise in general. Kudos to you for not being like 90% of the masses, and actually getting up and doing something.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: TheouAegis on December 10, 2011, 01:02:04 AM
Esco's project isn't just a hack, it's a PC remake.

And people are forgetting Mega Man 7! (and 8...) The Famicomization of Mega Man 7 is still available for download at its site, and if that ain't an "illegal fan game", I don't know what is. Capcom hasn't done anything to stop it. And Konami has yet to even try to put a halt to Castlevania clones. Komajou Densetsu II is still up for download at its site, and it's a blatant "ripoff" of SOTN. So all this "illegal fan game" talk is pointless. Konami wants people to make fan games, otherwise the company will completely lose its foothold in the market.

What it boils down to is Konami won't go after fan games unless there's money to be made in doing so. Most fan games won't step into the realm of cutting into Konami's profits, at least in the Castlevania franchise. Yugioh was a different matter, since shutting down a free-to-play online Yugioh game meant Konami could then market a pay-to-play Yugioh online game. In the case of Castlevania, there's nothing for Konami to worry about and it might cost them more money to worry about it. Esco may be playing with fire, but he's about the only one. ... Well, ROM hax themselves are bad too, but that's not what we're talking about here.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Esco on December 10, 2011, 02:33:11 AM
Let me make something crystal clear: if a cease and desist was ever ordered on me, the only people it would hurt is ALL OF THE FANS! It would mean no more blog, no more demo releases, no more public nothing. I would instantly go underground, and that would be that.

However, what I then do in the privacy of my home, would be my own business. And I guarantee you all that I would not lose out at all. You can all come to your own conclusions as to what I mean by that.  8)

Considering how few descent projects this "community" has, if I were most of you, I would hope that I actually succeed, rather than anyone wishing malice on me for doing what EVERYONE here should be trying to do, but many are too lazy too attempt.

On that note, I will thank you all NOT to start saying things like "I am playing with fire" or how my project will be "shut down." I don't need that bad juju sent my way, and the negative attention/suggestion are not wanted. It is however a quick way to get yourself put on my ignore list.

Just about everyone here is technically using intellectual property that doesn't belong to them, so before anyone points at anyone else, they might want to take a look at themselves.  8)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: A-Yty on December 10, 2011, 04:24:06 AM
Yeah, you guys. It's so simple and we're being such whiny lazy tards. Let's just add a PayPal donation system so we can buy the rights to Castlevania. And if that doesn't work, we'll keep that money for legal defense.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: uzo on December 10, 2011, 10:34:31 AM
Fan game legality basics:

1) Companies that own intellectual property can shut you down for unauthorized use of it, regardless if it is for profit or non profit.
2) They can outright sue you, without warning, for unauthorized use of their property.
3) They have the right to deny any request for use of their property.
4) Parody material is exempt from this. You can make fun of anything without permission.

Why does it happen?:

It makes the company look loose with their IP. It's seen by some to be tolerance on the use of their property, which makes them look weak, or unable to handle people using it without permission. A corporate pissing contest so to speak. It can also be seen as other people making non-money profit; hits to a webpage, merchandising, popularity, etc. These can lead to actual derived money profits.

What usually happens if they want to shut you down:

They give you a warning to cease and desist. Law suits cost money, so they'd rather intimidate you into doing what they want for free. Refusal to that can go to a law suit, but they usually will try and persuade you once more. Again, law suits cost money. Eventually they will sue you, and it will be a lose lose situation for you.

Not all companies are the same:

Not all companies have the same tolerances and policies, outside of selling it as they all crack down on that. Some companies do not allow fan games to even exist, while others encourage it. Here are some examples;

Paramount - Unauthorized Star Trek IP did not exist. You made so much as a fan website, you got sued, end of story. Ever wonder why there were so many PARODY (see above) Star Trek sites?
Funimation - You try to make a fan game of DBZ, and you will be facing a real law suit threat. They do NOT fuck around.
Nintendo - Does not allow actual/quality fan games. Flash games you may get away with, but anything actually good will be shut down (ie that Metroid Remake).
Konami - While they have no official stance on things, as far as I've heard, they seem to let fan games go. I don't recall a single fan game being shut out.
Capcom - Encourages fan sites, games, and more. They even have fan page starter kits, and officially allow the unauthorized uploading and sharing of their game music, believe it or not (I have asked and verified it myself). Their relatively new website (http://www.capcom-unity.com/ (http://www.capcom-unity.com/)) is dedicated to fan interaction and content.

Final comments about this issue, especially for Konami:

I really haven't seen a true high quality fan game to come of Konami's IP. It is possible Esco and I could become the first 'examples' of a crack down. Not often do we the fans have an opportunity to make a game noticeably BETTER than the official titles. That may NOT be taken lightly. Only time can tell though. This is also another reason I dont publicly update too much, keeping it on the low.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: X on December 10, 2011, 11:30:46 AM
Quote
Paramount - Unauthorized Star Trek IP did not exist. You made so much as a fan website, you got sued, end of story. Ever wonder why there were so many PARODY (see above) Star Trek sites?
Funimation - You try to make a fan game of DBZ, and you will be facing a real law suit threat. They do NOT fuck around.
Nintendo - Does not allow actual/quality fan games. Flash games you may get away with, but anything actually good will be shut down (ie that Metroid Remake).
Konami - While they have no official stance on things, as far as I've heard, they seem to let fan games go. I don't recall a single fan game being shut out.
Capcom - Encourages fan sites, games, and more. They even have fan page starter kits, and officially allow the unauthorized uploading and sharing of their game music, believe it or not (I have asked and verified it myself). Their relatively new website (http://www.capcom-unity.com/ (http://www.capcom-unity.com/)) is dedicated to fan interaction and content.

You forgot about Square Enix and Sega. I'm curious as to what they say about fan-based projects. I had heard that Sega gave a cease & desist order to the creators of SoR Remake and Sqare Enix did them same with that fan project of Chrono Trigger.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Esco on December 10, 2011, 12:10:48 PM
You forgot about Square Enix and Sega. I'm curious as to what they say about fan-based projects. I had heard that Sega gave a cease & desist order to the creators of SoR Remake and Sqare Enix did them same with that fan project of Chrono Trigger.

Yes Sega did; but it was after it was completed, and everything was released already.

Square Enix shut down the chrono trigger remake; mostly because they wanted to make chrono cross, and were going to re-release chrono trigger it appears.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: C Belmont on December 10, 2011, 04:11:09 PM
Quote
Konami - While they have no official stance on things, as far as I've heard, they seem to let fan games go. I don't recall a single fan game being shut out
Oh they have an official stance, people just aren't willing to ask them about it because they know very well that they won't like it.Here is what Konami told me in an email I sent them a while back "We are sorry to inform you that Konami of America does not allow outside parties to create games or business around our licensed material due to legal reasons"

Quote
I really haven't seen a true high quality fan game to come of Konami's IP. It is possible Esco and I could become the first 'examples' of a crack down. Not often do we the fans have an opportunity to make a game noticeably BETTER than the official titles. That may NOT be taken lightly. Only time can tell though. This is also another reason I dont publicly update too much, keeping it on the low.
This gave me a good laugh, Creating any kind of game is certainly an achievement but I’ve yet to see anything more ambitious than any of Konami's official titles not even there lazily made ones just more sprite recycling and remakes.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on December 10, 2011, 07:34:22 PM
Unless you profit off of the IP, most companies don't really care if you make fan games. At least Sega and Capcom dont. and I havent heard of Konami putting their foot down on any Castlevania fan material.

Meanwhile, Nintendo even shut down a fan film.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Danial on December 10, 2011, 10:11:12 PM
Didn't Konami put a stop to Ben Isaac's CV movie?  I don't remember if he was trying to make a profit on it, but they still kept him from distributing it.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: TheouAegis on December 10, 2011, 10:52:40 PM
Konami shut down an online card game. I found out about that googling.

I'm not saying anything bad about anybody, I'm just pointing out that maybe someday Konami will want to do what some of you are doing. Of course it would just be in their best interests to buy people off rather than hiring a new team of programmers at higher wages/salaries to do what you're already doing. Orchestra Of The Evening could be a lucrative venture for them. ... *Copyrights the title "Orchestra of the Evening" for himself *

Castlevania Wiki says Isaac's movie was shut down,and his site is gone too. Actually yeah, it's been shut down. Supposedly Isaac himself created a petition to Konami to have it released. But that could maybe mean Konami has something bigger planned and they just don't want anyone cutting into it.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: JR on December 11, 2011, 10:36:36 PM
I really like the Occupy: Castlevania concept...it's something I could support without hesitation. Although I have to admit my indifference to seeing the Demon Castle War storyline being concluded (I mostly like the story itself, but don't know if I want to see it finished), I feel comfortable supporting all points because of the approach.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Omegasigma on December 16, 2011, 11:51:45 PM
being the director of several projects, I can say, its impossible to please everyone, however in this case, Konami can please the majourity, issue is, would it please konami's higherups, every company has expectations of their products, to cover the costs of development, and then funding for the next project and payment for the employees, but all we can really do is sit back and watch
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Koutei on December 17, 2011, 02:24:51 AM
KONAMI Style Japan has begun such project.

Social Factory (Japanese)
http://www.konamistyle.jp/sp/social_factory/index.html (http://www.konamistyle.jp/sp/social_factory/index.html) (Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=ja&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.konamistyle.jp%2Fsp%2Fsocial_factory%2Findex.html))

*Attention: This is for Japanese Language only. Hash Tag: #ソーシャルファクトリー ("#social factory" hash tag is NOT working)

KONAMI may be asking for the user's voice.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 17, 2011, 11:39:55 AM
KONAMI Style Japan has begun such project.

Social Factory (Japanese)
http://www.konamistyle.jp/sp/social_factory/index.html (http://www.konamistyle.jp/sp/social_factory/index.html) (Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=ja&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.konamistyle.jp%2Fsp%2Fsocial_factory%2Findex.html))

*Attention: This is for Japanese Language only. Hash Tag: #ソーシャルファクトリー ("#social factory" hash tag is NOT working)

KONAMI may be asking for the user's voice.

Now this is interesting...  Unfortunately the translator isn't much help...   :-\
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Neobelmont on December 18, 2011, 07:11:53 PM
KONAMI Style Japan has begun such project.

Social Factory (Japanese)

KONAMI may be asking for the user's voice.

First off why Japan where they do not even give a crap about Cv. What about the other countries?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on December 19, 2011, 10:29:04 AM
Quote
First off why Japan where they do not even give a crap about Cv. What about the other countries?
I think it's because for the last few years Konami really tried to make Castlevania relevant in Japan.

Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 19, 2011, 09:20:03 PM
I think it's because for the last few years Konami really tried to make Castlevania relevant in Japan.

Examining the data....
Lords of Shadow PS3 http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35059/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35059/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/)
Lords of Shadow 360 http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35060/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35060/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/)

Total US Sales:  473,654 (55.64% of Global Sales)
-- 16.39% sold the first week
-- 53.83% sold the first ten weeks
--still going strong after the first 3 months

Total EU Sales:  265,754 (31.21% of Global Sales)
-- 17.07% sold the first week
-- 69.60% sold the first ten weeks
--sales weakened after 3 months

Total JP Sales:  111,827 (13.13% of Global Sales)
-- 33.17% sold the first week
-- 75.87% sold in the first 10 weeks
--major sales decline after 3 months

...it looks like Lords of Shadow may not have impressed the Japanese as much as Konami hoped.  Although 111,827 copies have sold there, that currently amounts to less than 14% of the total global sales.   It's also interesting to note 37,000 of those copies were sold the first week, followed by a much sharper decline than the western sales.  Dedicated fans and hardcore gamers tend to line up for the day one purchase whenever possible, but a mainstream audience is needed to keep sales going strong over time.  The US definitely had the buzz and the glowing reviews to lure the mainstream, but Japan is looking like another story...
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Neobelmont on December 19, 2011, 11:48:00 PM
When it comes to Japan it is always one week and that is it hell even Zelda skyward sword is not selling that much over there the only game series I have found to do well in Japan are Final Fantasy,Dragon Warrior,Mario, and hell even to a point Devil May Cry (which is funny I do not see how the hell Devil may cry is more popular than castlevania it's like DMC is like Castlevania's hyperactive off spring that every one just loves while CV is just that once well respected adult that just got put into a retirement home to be put into a corner playing bingo and tapioca pudding), and to a point the tales of series, Xilla did really and I mean really well. At least from my understanding Lords has reached over 1million copies now I believe the ps3 sold 0.64m and 360 0.37m which is better than it's competition vanquish and enslaved. Vanquish did well in japan,but due to Japan's sale's tendency to drop like a ton of bricks it just crashed in the end sort of.
Enslaved on the other hand just crashed and burned all the way to the deepest part of hell.

Here are the sales from top best to worst bottom.

PS3

http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35059/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35059/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/)

http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/42969/vanquish/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/42969/vanquish/)

http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/44878/enslaved-odyssey-to-the-west/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/44878/enslaved-odyssey-to-the-west/)

360

http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/44879/enslaved-odyssey-to-the-west/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/44879/enslaved-odyssey-to-the-west/)

http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35060/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35060/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/)

http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/42970/vanquish/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/42970/vanquish/)

Now let's take Los success into some kind of consideration it did well it has reached the one 1 million mark, heck it did better than Other M 0.93M  http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35086/metroid-other-m/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35086/metroid-other-m/)

Los combined 0.64M + 0.37M = 1.01M and remember Los did not have commercials of any sort it for the most part except in Japan compared to others from my understanding.



Enslaved: Odyssey To The West TV Spot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT03OH2d-vQ#ws)



Vanquish - Spot TV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_dlj5MYI5M#ws)



Vanquish - Launch Trailer (made by Maverick) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKbsulgMWv4#ws)



Metroid Other M Live Action Commercial [HD] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlmMDbXxLw4#ws)


[Minna no NC] Metroid: Other M - Commercial 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIiYslRItYM#ws)


Vanquish 1st commercial sony ps3 xbox x360 xbox360 JP jpn japanese japan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzkA7RNNNwI#ws)


Castlevania Lords of Shadow commercial PS3 sony playstation3 JP jpn japanese japan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u6fsFnS6sM#ws)




I think it's because for the last few years Konami really tried to make Castlevania relevant in Japan.


Look at this 


Castlevania-Lords of Shadow- SPECIAL STAGE(2010年9月19日) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUR256E2TFE#ws)


Some kind of attempt has been made, but one way I think for castlevania to gain the heart of japan again is to beat other action games to me it has to be dmc.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on December 20, 2011, 11:48:58 AM
Quote
...it looks like Lords of Shadow may not have impressed the Japanese as much as Konami hoped.
I should have added that I talked about pre-LOS games. Since it's kind of obvious that LOS was created with western fans in mind.

Basically every 2D CV game after HOD was made to cater to japanese tastes (save for 3D titles). AOS had anime-inspired stoyline, DOS had animeisque illustrations and story, POR had the same animeique style and characters were tailored to fit animeish stereotypes. OOE was more mature, but still it had japanese influence in the design of the main heroine. Happily that pretty much where that previously overwhelming influence ended.
Then there is Judgement, wjich I believed had Obata as character designer for the sole reason to sell this game to the Death Note fans.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: GummiCandyful on December 20, 2011, 06:49:50 PM
After everything that has happened, why do I feel like 2011 was the worst year to be a Castlevania AND Megaman fan?

I really hope that next year, things will be better, but with Konami and Capcom's attitude as of late, it seems extremely unlikely. Only time will tell, I suppose. =/
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on December 21, 2011, 09:38:18 AM
^^^ Add on to that it's the 25th FUCKIN Anniversary of CV! These things are supposed to be GREAT, not let downs.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Nagumo on December 21, 2011, 10:00:31 AM
The 25th anniversary of Zelda was what I imagined this year would have looked like for Castlevania.

Oh well.   
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: kadosho on December 21, 2011, 11:55:35 AM
For CV to make a truthful return, let's revisit with a 2D adventure. Not a 3d spectacle.
We have explored 3d enough, and know its a difficult terrain to cover. (*Honestly I don't agree with having to buy a separate chapter just to finish a game. Its sounds ridiculous and a crummy idea to begin with) Seeing how LOS delivered content in such a manner is negative aspect towards the fanbase. And there are many of us out there. If CV can make a comeback, give it time, and deliver a solid title. We know that it can be done.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 21, 2011, 12:34:28 PM
After everything that has happened, why do I feel like 2011 was the worst year to be a Castlevania AND Megaman fan?

I really hope that next year, things will be better, but with Konami and Capcom's attitude as of late, it seems extremely unlikely. Only time will tell, I suppose. =/

^^^ Add on to that it's the 25th FUCKIN Anniversary of CV! These things are supposed to be GREAT, not let downs.

The 25th anniversary of Zelda was what I imagined this year would have looked like for Castlevania.

Oh well.

For CV to make a truthful return, let's revisit with a 2D adventure. Not a 3d spectacle.
We have explored 3d enough, and know its a difficult terrain to cover. (*Honestly I don't agree with having to buy a separate chapter just to finish a game. Its sounds ridiculous and a crummy idea to begin with) Seeing how LOS delivered content in such a manner is negative aspect towards the fanbase. And there are many of us out there. If CV can make a comeback, give it time, and deliver a solid title. We know that it can be done.

2011 may be a lost cause, but there's no sense dwelling on it.  The big question we should be asking is "What do we do now?"  The fact is that Konami will never heed our cries as long as we're squabbling amongst ourselves.  We Castlevania fans really need to start building bridges and working together on the causes that we can agree on.  Operation: Akumajo hasn't been entirely successful, but it hasn't been a complete failure either.  And it's probably a good thing to be working out the growing pains now, before Castlevania is back in the news.  So when the publicity comes, we're a little wiser in our approach.  A couple pages back, someone asked me about the message I sent to Sindra...  Let me share a just small part of that message with you now....

Quote
....

You've also pointed out a few times in the past that Operation: Akumajo has some negative baggage.  This isn't as pervasive as you're thinking and what is out there can be overcome by making changes in management, a little diplomacy, and some retooling of the existing Mission Statement and related media.  Also consider that Operation: Akumajo has had almost zero publicity in the mainstream gaming press, because Castlevania just wasn't making any hard news these last few months that we came together.  The fact is that only the hardest of the hardcore even know about us --most Castlevania fans are preoccupied enjoying other games that are out there right now.  But when the next Lords of Shadow game is finally announced, the opportunities to ride that publicity for positive exposure will be nearly limitless.

Just a few numbers to help put this in perspective.  The DS Castlevanias sold an average of about 320,000 copies each.  The Dracula X Chronicles sold about 350,000 copies (not including digital downloads). Konami's official Castlevania page currently has about 157,000 fans (with just a few hundred actively engaged and participating).  The Castlevania Dungeon has around 1600 members, with perhaps a hundred participating regularly (and maybe a couple hundred more lurking).  Operation: Akumajo has almost 300 members, and our most popular Youtube video (The Anniversary Tribute) has about 3200 views.  The bottom line?  An untapped Castlevania fanbase --and a potential audience of supporters yet to be reached, that still numbers in the tens of thousands...

....

So take heart my friends, and don't worry --this isn't over...   ;)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Maedhros on December 21, 2011, 01:15:52 PM
Guys, GUYSSSS!

VGchartz FUCKING SUCKS. Stop getting numbers from that horrible site.

The only numbers you can count on are NPD, Media Create/Famitsu/Enterbrain (for japanese games). VGchartz are simply ridiculous, with no official source to backup them at all.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on December 22, 2011, 01:05:10 PM
Quote
For CV to make a truthful return, let's revisit with a 2D adventure. Not a 3d spectacle.
And this project will bring money because...?
In order for CV to be big, it must be a hit, not nostalgia filled "king-for-a-day" that will be forgotten, when another "remix form the past" will be released. And I don't think that developers will put big money into creation of 2D game for the PS3 / BOX360. If anything it could be project for the NDS / Vita or for Live or PSN, but it's unlikely that it would be an imminent sensation that make think Konami that they "doing something wrong" with the series.

Quote
Seeing how LOS delivered content in such a manner is negative aspect towards the fanbase.
It's normal business model in modern gaming. Practically every big project nowadays have some DLC content, be it new levels, modes or costumes. I dislike it, but it's not deliberate insult towards fanbase, just the way how developers make money nowadays.

Quote
But when the next Lords of Shadow game is finally announced, the opportunities to ride that publicity for positive exposure will be nearly limitless.
There is no words how to describe, how I doubt that possibility.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 22, 2011, 03:50:26 PM
And this project will bring money because...?
In order for CV to be big, it must be a hit, not nostalgia filled "king-for-a-day" that will be forgotten, when another "remix form the past" will be released. And I don't think that developers will put big money into creation of 2D game for the PS3 / BOX360. If anything it could be project for the NDS / Vita or for Live or PSN, but it's unlikely that it would be an imminent sensation that make think Konami that they "doing something wrong" with the series.

QUALITY makes money.

Lords of Shadow didn't sell just because it was 3-D, it sold because it was a high quality product.  New Super Mario didn't sell just because it was 2-D, it sold because it was a high quality product.  Now Konami could go off and make another cheap, mishmash full of recycled ideas and recycled graphics --or they could get serious about developing an ambitious 2-D game to its fullest creative and technical potential.  Dracula X Chronicles was a big step in the right direction, but it was a remake and it certainly wasn't developed for the most ideal system to reach the Castlevania fanbase...

We could certainly settle for handhelds, but why?  We've been settling for handhelds for nearly 15 years.  Just consider the 3DS is far more powerful than the N64, and I can remember when the N64 was just "too powerful" to be wasted on 2-D games.  And if I recall correctly, the Vita is about as powerful as the PS3 anyway, so what's the difference?  Some of us are getting too old to be squinting at these tiny handheld screens for hours at a time.

Quote
There is no words how to describe, how I doubt that possibility.

It's very simple.  When Castlevania is back in the news, the wayward fans will start coming home.  They'll visit Castlevania websites.  They'll commune on Castlevania forums.  They'll read Castlevania news.  They'll search Google, Facebook, and Youtube for all things Castlevania...

And we will be there, waiting with open arms to welcome them.   :D
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on December 24, 2011, 10:08:16 AM
Quote
Now Konami could go off and make another cheap, mishmash full of recycled ideas and recycled graphics --or they could get serious about developing an ambitious 2-D game to its fullest creative and technical potential.  Dracula X Chronicles was a big step in the right direction, but it was a remake and it certainly wasn't developed for the most ideal system to reach the Castlevania fanbase...
Now this is where I see the biggest problem with 2D Castlevanias.
Development of the high quality 2D game will take, most likely, as much money nowadays as development of the 3D title. I don't think that Konami honestly believes in 2D future of the series, especially given Harmony of Despair treatment, that by the end was filled wth lazy copypaste from 8bit games (!!).
If there will be a new fresh 2D title in the series, it probably will be a downloadable relatively short game. And I doubt that is exactly what OA strives to.
In other words - Konami want to make money and they'll do what is considered popular nowadays. 2D games are a mostly a niche market for netwroks and portable consoles and I doubt that Konami will consider a really big 2D title for the PS3 / Box360. Or even if they do, it will not be a Castlevania.

Quote
It's very simple.  When Castlevania is back in the news, the wayward fans will start coming home.  They'll visit Castlevania websites.  They'll commune on Castlevania forums.  They'll read Castlevania news.  They'll search Google, Facebook, and Youtube for all things Castlevania...
And they'll see group of old-school fans who demand Castlevania to be made by standards of 1997. [sarcasm]Sure it would rise the popularity of the project.[/sarcasm]
In reality it will may attract certain people (read: old school fans, who disatisfied with changes for whatever reason), but I doubt it will get major coverage in gaming press and all that jazz. Most likely OA would be seen as another attempt of antique fanboys to turn time backwards.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 28, 2011, 12:30:10 PM
Now this is where I see the biggest problem with 2D Castlevanias.
Development of the high quality 2D game will take, most likely, as much money nowadays as development of the 3D title. I don't think that Konami honestly believes in 2D future of the series, especially given Harmony of Despair treatment, that by the end was filled wth lazy copypaste from 8bit games (!!).
If there will be a new fresh 2D title in the series, it probably will be a downloadable relatively short game. And I doubt that is exactly what OA strives to.
In other words - Konami want to make money and they'll do what is considered popular nowadays. 2D games are a mostly a niche market for netwroks and portable consoles and I doubt that Konami will consider a really big 2D title for the PS3 / Box360. Or even if they do, it will not be a Castlevania.

Unfortunately, we're at a disadvantage since the industry doesn't routinely publish their data on the cost of game development.  People are usually the primary expense in any industry, and since most people are paid by the hour --the most expensive games are probably those that spend the most time in development --regardless of whether it's a 2-D or a 3-D game.  But without any hard data, that's just idle speculation...

As for Konami doing what's popular to make money...  Well that's really the heart of the game industry, isn't it?  Konami is content being just  another trend-chasing drone like Capcom and Square Enix --hardly any innovation or ambition between the 3 of them whatsoever.

Quote
And they'll see group of old-school fans who demand Castlevania to be made by standards of 1997. [sarcasm]Sure it would rise the popularity of the project.[/sarcasm]
In reality it will may attract certain people (read: old school fans, who disatisfied with changes for whatever reason), but I doubt it will get major coverage in gaming press and all that jazz. Most likely OA would be seen as another attempt of antique fanboys to turn time backwards.

In the first half of your response, you just acknowledged OA wants a "high quality 2D game".  But here you just wrote us off as a bunch of "antique fanboys" that seeks to "turn time backwards" by demanding "standards of 1997".  It may be several pages back now, but I explained to Flame in some detail why CV Rebirth fell short of what OA stands for.  If you want, you can go back and read it...  Long story short --Rebirth had tons of wasted potential, and it doesn't make sense to keep producing games that could've been made for the PS1 over 15 years ago.  OA believes in seeing 2-D Castlevania retake its rightful place as a state of the art franchise.  Here is an excerpt from the Mission Statement to help clarify some of the specifics....
 
Quote
First, we believe Konami should finish the original continuity by reinstating Koji Igarashi to produce the "1999 Demon Castle War" as it was originally foretold by Aria of Sorrow over 8 years ago. Naturally, we expect this game to honor the Castlevania legacy by embracing the highest standards of 2-D gameplay, graphics, and design.

Secondly, we concede the Castlevania brand needs a reboot --however, we insist the Akumajo mythology be respected in doing so. Therefore, we believe Konami needs to redesign and remaster Castlevania III: Dracula's Curse. Revisiting these old roots will properly introduce a new generation of players to the original Castlevania story, and also pay appropriate tribute to longtime fans of the series. We expect this remake to honor the original, but also demonstrate the same modern standards desired of the Demon Castle War.

Castlevania has been in decline for a very long time. Therefore, these games must be treated as serious investments with adequate resources, time, and attention to reach their fullest creative and technical potential. Moreover, we also insist that both games be developed in high definition for release on modern home consoles.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Neobelmont on December 28, 2011, 04:56:15 PM
Man so much bickering just move foward with the franchise I love me some good old 2-d goodness but hell look towards the future we have to crack open that door. For way too long these other action games have over shadowed cv it has to move foward to just even survive, yet people still want to hold on to blah blah 2-d stay 2-d boat what is so bad about moving foward an to try to better it's self? Hell in the end I really do not care, all what I just want is a awesome well polished Cv game just give time,effort the series deserves and it should sell well right?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Las on December 28, 2011, 07:44:29 PM
My honest opinion is both 2-d and 3-d cv games are good. Whatever direction they decide to go is up to them. I like both those types plus the differences between standard cv1,3,4,rondo style and games more like cv2 or sotn metroidvania styles are nice too. The fact that they change it up and try different things each game is exciting. I honestly think for me a good storyline,strong gameplay and well rounded characters,enemies and bosses make a great game. I'd say stay away from regurgated enemies or bosses. Something with uniqueness would be great, something not yet done. Maybe a storyline or gameplay that hasn't  really happened. Unigue storylines are key. 8)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Joachimdragoon on December 29, 2011, 07:58:57 AM
I think castlevania is still relevant and I really enjoy the story in Castlevania although it takes some work to get a timeline down as for Lament of Innocence I actually enjoyed it quite a bit especially the fact that you could play as one of the bosses which I thought was one of the coolest vamps in the game. I found Walter just a little boring my taste but the bossfight with him was pretty interesting. Compared to Castlevania legacy of Darkness I think Lament of Innocence is alot shorter but it doesn't bore you like Legacy of Darkness (although I do give props for trying to expand on something that was pretty cool in Castlevania symphony of the Night familiars, different weapons etc.) I for one love this origin story and yeah many people don't play it for the story but hey at least Konami tries sometimes.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Ookalf on December 29, 2011, 11:51:33 AM
I have to say, cecil-kain, I'm not sure I understand your current sig. You want Konami to "think outside the box" by... just retreading the same old gameplay and stories? Isn't that kinda the definition of thinking inside the box?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on December 29, 2011, 08:58:20 PM
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yet people still want to hold on to blah blah 2-d stay 2-d boat what is so bad about moving foward an to try to better it's self? Hell in the end I really do not care, all what I just want is a awesome well polished Cv game just give time,effort the series deserves and it should sell well right?
I am with you on this. Some people just couldn't accept that they favorite series could be done differently.

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Konami is content being just  another trend-chasing drone like Capcom and Square Enix --hardly any innovation or ambition between the 3 of them whatsoever.
And how its different from what game companies did in the past?
Stop living in nostalgia. It was always the case with the video games, music, cinema - as soon as one theme become widely popular, it usually become copied (and sometimes elaborated) by everyone else in idustry.

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OA believes in seeing 2-D Castlevania retake its rightful place as a state of the art franchise.  Here is an excerpt from the Mission Statement to help clarify some of the specifics....
Naturally, we expect this game to honor the Castlevania legacy by embracing the highest standards of 2-D gameplay, graphics, and design.
And that's what I called "attempt of antique fanboys to turn time backwards".

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Compared to Castlevania legacy of Darkness I think Lament of Innocence is alot shorter but it doesn't bore you like Legacy of Darkness (although I do give props for trying to expand on something that was pretty cool in Castlevania symphony of the Night familiars, different weapons etc.)
I believe. You meant Curse of Darkness.

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I have to say, cecil-kain, I'm not sure I understand your current sig. You want Konami to "think outside the box" by... just retreading the same old gameplay and stories? Isn't that kinda the definition of thinking inside the box?
That's the basic definition of the old "hardcore" fans of any franchise.
Just don't tell it to them or they tell you that they most advanced and out of the box thinking guys ever existed.  ;D
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 29, 2011, 09:09:47 PM
I have to say, cecil-kain, I'm not sure I understand your current sig. You want Konami to "think outside the box" by... just retreading the same old gameplay and stories? Isn't that kinda the definition of thinking inside the box?

"Restore Castlevania" refers to how Konami mismanaged and allowed Akumajo Dracula to become a faint shadow of its former glory.  Since I first designed this particular banner, I found a more appropriate image for the "Restore Castlevania" part of the message.  And that will find its way onto the dungeon sometime soon...  As for "Think outside the Box" this was a deliberate comparison to Metal Gear Solid and how Konami gives Kojima Productions preferential treatment at the expense of all of their other IPs, including Castlevania.  The new message attached to "think outside the box" is simply "Celebrate Castlevania" referring to how MGS got an HD collection about the time Castlevania had a very sad and uneventful 25th birthday....
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: C Belmont on December 29, 2011, 09:26:26 PM
Change the question mark to an exclamation point and the crate to a Cardboard box with Kojima or MGS's logo on it and the message would probably have been a lot clearer, I actually thought it was about not following trends or something like that.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on December 29, 2011, 09:39:52 PM
And how its different from what game companies did in the past?  Stop living in nostalgia. It was always the case with the video games, music, cinema - as soon as one theme become widely popular, it usually become copied (and sometimes elaborated) by everyone else in industry

In the past, selling video games to a much smaller (and younger) audience was a hell of a lot more challenging --especially after the fad that was the Atari crashed and burned.  Back in the NES era, it was "quality or die".  It wasn't until we grew up and new generations came, that companies like Konami became fat and complacent.

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And that's what I called "attempt of antique fanboys to turn time backwards".

We could only dream of games like this back in the early 90s...

Sonic Generations Sky Sanctuary playthrough (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjDJd6Ay5jw#ws)

How would you categorize this game?  Antique?  Perhaps?
 :rollseyes:
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: e105beta on December 29, 2011, 09:45:01 PM
"Restore Castlevania" refers to how Konami mismanaged and allowed Akumajo Dracula to become a faint shadow of its former glory.  Since I first designed this particular banner, I found a more appropriate image for the "Restore Castlevania" part of the message.  And that will find its way onto the dungeon sometime soon...  As for "Think outside the Box" this was a deliberate comparison to Metal Gear Solid and how Konami gives Kojima Productions preferential treatment at the expense of all of their other IPs, including Castlevania.  The new message attached to "think outside the box" is simply "Celebrate Castlevania" referring to how MGS got an HD collection about the time Castlevania had a very sad and uneventful 25th birthday....

"Preferential treatment"? Really?

These are video game franchises, we're talking about, not people.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Ghetto-blasteR on December 30, 2011, 10:25:53 PM
it'd be sick to play CV in a level with architecture similar to that video. there's a perfect example of the looks-3d-but-is-really-2d topic we were discussing a few pages back.

Sonic Generations Sky Sanctuary playthrough (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjDJd6Ay5jw#ws)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on December 31, 2011, 12:49:30 PM
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Back in the NES era, it was "quality or die".  It wasn't until we grew up and new generations came, that companies like Konami became fat and complacent.
You say it like there never was anything between nowadays and NES.

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How would you categorize this game?  Antique?  Perhaps?
Old-fashioned.
It's nothing new. Just a 2,5 sidescroller.

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"Preferential treatment"? Really?
Those arguments about "Konami make MGS games by limiting resources of other projects" sounds more like green-eyed jealousy of CV-fans.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: e105beta on December 31, 2011, 04:18:27 PM
Those arguments about "Konami make MGS games by limiting resources of other projects" sounds more like green-eyed jealousy of CV-fans.

Those kinds of comments and arguments are the reasons why I don't see success in Operation: Akumajo's future.

It's full of bitching, moaning, and self-entitled demands like those from a bratty kid who didn't get exactly what they wanted for Christmas.

Let's be straight about it: Metal Gear Solid sells multi-millions and Castlevania struggles to break the 500k barrier. Thus, Konami, as a business whose ultimate goal is to make money, is going to take the obvious step and make more Metal Gear Solid instead of investing in a series that has proven to be largely unprofitable. Considering that, I'm bewildered as to why anyone thinks that Konami is going to listen to the group that is being stubbornly indignant and demanding its high budget, HD, but ultimately niche game, when those same people have only proven to move roughly 300k copies per game.

As much as it might pain some to hear, Lords of Shadow has sold more than any Castlevania save for maybe Symphony of the Night or the original three, and did so with little effort on Konami's part to actually sell the game, so ultimately, unless you can assure Konami that the theoretical 2D, HD, high budget game would be a sounder investment, no amount of petty demands from a niche fan group is going to change their mind.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on December 31, 2011, 04:23:33 PM
I still dont know what OA's goals are, and no matter how many times they get stated, they must be forgettable bland goals if I can never remember them.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Ookalf on January 01, 2012, 10:23:25 AM
I still dont know what OA's goals are, and no matter how many times they get stated, they must be forgettable bland goals if I can never remember them.

As I recall, it basically amounts to telling Konami to need to make the "1999 Game," which has to be in glorious two dimensional HD!, and then "reboot" the series by remaking Castlevania III in glorious two dimensional HD! instead of, y'know, actually trying to do anything new, or else they'll hate Konami forevers!!1... It's all really vague and kinda whiny, if you ask me.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 02, 2012, 04:54:21 PM
It's full of bitching, moaning, and self-entitled demands like those from a bratty kid who didn't get exactly what they wanted for Christmas.

This isn’t about Castlevania, but humor me a moment and watch the entire video.
**not safe for work**

Capcom Says Fans Are to Blame for Mega Man Legends 3 Being Cancelled (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqwYDdTl-tc#ws)

This man is bitching, moaning, self-entitled, demanding, vulgar, and unprofessional --he IS the bratty kid that didn't get the game he wanted for Christmas....  But you know what?  He has a legitimate complaint and a rational argument, and I support his message and his cause 110% --because he's right.

Operation: Akumajo is a protest against Konami's treatment of Castlevania.  Our cause is the preservation of Akumajo Dracula and the 2-D artform.  Our specific goals are the development of both the Demon Castle War and the remastering of Dracula's Curse.  And contrary to all the sanctimonious comments in this topic, OA doesn't produce or circulate anything close to this kind of vulgar, vitriolic material.  We intend to make our points forcefully, because that's the nature of activism --but we intend to do so as reasonably and as responsibly as possible.

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Let's be straight about it: Metal Gear Solid sells multi-millions and Castlevania struggles to break the 500k barrier. Thus, Konami, as a business whose ultimate goal is to make money, is going to take the obvious step and make more Metal Gear Solid instead of investing in a series that has proven to be largely unprofitable. Considering that, I'm bewildered as to why anyone thinks that Konami is going to listen to the group that is being stubbornly indignant and demanding its high budget, HD, but ultimately niche game, when those same people have only proven to move roughly 300k copies per game.

When you see a game selling multi-millions like Metal Gear Solid, you can look at a variety of reasons why --genre, story, gameplay, marketing, etc... But I’ll stand by what I’ve said over and over throughout this topic about quality.

MGS games are high quality products designed by some of the most experienced and talented professionals in the industry.  With that said, MGS also enjoys the rare luxury of a producer who is the sitting Vice President of Konami Digital Entertainment.  Wielding that kind of power immediately eliminates many of the financial obstacles that most other game producers are forced to deal with.  Looking at this situation objectively, you can’t possibly deny that these are the ideal conditions for any game to be developed --MGS or otherwise.

While Castlevania’s 25th Anniversary passed without any fanfare, Konami made it a higher priority to repackage HD versions of their PS2 MGS games that are already widely owned and abundantly available to those that don’t at cheap prices.  Let’s consider the example of Snake Eater.  Metal Gear Solid 3 had its original release way back in 2004, Subsistence in 2006, the Essential Collection in 2008, the HD Collection in 2011, and now the 3DS version is due in the next couple months.  This kind of saturation almost harkens back to how greedily Capcom exploited Street Fighter II back in the 90’s --and we all know how that eventually ended...

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As much as it might pain some to hear, Lords of Shadow has sold more than any Castlevania save for maybe Symphony of the Night or the original three, and did so with little effort on Konami's part to actually sell the game, so ultimately, unless you can assure Konami that the theoretical 2D, HD, high budget game would be a sounder investment, no amount of petty demands from a niche fan group is going to change their mind.


You’d think Konami might have some people studying the console market, people who take notice when a 2-D game like Super Mario Bros Wii sells 24 million copies...  Sonic Generations has only been out for a couple months, and it’s already started running circles around Lords of Shadow’s Global sales...  Of course, you could easily chalk that up to the genre or brand recognition, but the fact is if Konami really wanted to dip their toe in the water (at a bare minimum of expense) they could easily do so by giving the Dracula X Chronicles the Peace Walker treatment.  As for OA, give it time...
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Green Stranger on January 02, 2012, 06:57:16 PM
I'm curious to see if Cecil has made a video like this or is planning to. Nevertheless that's a nice little video of a guy who's probably never had sex.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on January 02, 2012, 08:36:39 PM
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Our specific goals are the development of both the Demon Castle War and the remastering of Dracula's Curse.
You are basically just demanding games with no justifiable reason.

That is why your goals are forgettable and nobody takes OA seriously.

They are not serious goals, but you take them as seriously as a plate of beans.

Those goals are the kind of goals you just make petitions for and hope Konami pays attention and cares. For OA to even be a MOVEMENT, you need to have real goals.

Operation Rainfall is about getting Nintendo of America to Localize 3 particular high profile games (Xenoblade, The Last Story, Pandora's Tower) that American gamers have been highly expecting since their announcement, and have been snubbed, with Xenoblade being the only of the 3 with a planned American Release, the other 2 so far only having European Loalizations planned.

100,000 strong is about getting Capcom to resume development of Mega Man Legends 3, a game that many Mega Man fans have waited for 10 years to happen, finally got their wish, and then had Capcom pull the plug, breaking their own promises that the prototype would be the test run to gauge interest, and instead basing their estimated unit sales on the Devroom member numbers, when they themselves stated that fans were not required to join the Devroom to follow the game's development, and citing unspecified "criteria" that was not met as the reason for cancellation. And later had Capcom of Europe blame the cancellation on Fans not caring enough.

Those are real, legitimate Goals. The American Localization by NoA of 3 High profile games that have already been stated to have PAL releases, and the revived Development of a cancelled Game that Capcom broke their word on.

None of them are just DEMANDING new games. Operation Rainfall's games are very real and existent, and 100,000 strong's Legends 3 Prototype was practically already finished and awaiting release before it was cancelled. All Capcom needs to do is honor their original promise of gouging interest via the Prototype's sales. AKA Release the prototype that was already finished.

Ge'choo some real goals, and maybe a better name,(OA just cant stay, sorry. Many people outside the fanbase wouldnt get what it means. Try for "Operation Castlevania" even.) then we can all talk.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 03, 2012, 05:54:00 AM
You are basically just demanding games with no justifiable reason.

That is why your goals are forgettable and nobody takes OA seriously.

In your humble opinion, Flame.  I understand that the CVD has a handful of critics, but outside of this echo chamber Castlevania has tens of thousands of fans --most of whom have never even heard of OA.  Do you really presume to speak for all of them?  Or are you comfortable enough in your opinions to let them judge OA for themselves?

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They are not serious goals, but you take them as seriously as a plate of beans.

Those goals are the kind of goals you just make petitions for and hope Konami pays attention and cares. For OA to even be a MOVEMENT, you need to have real goals.

How is Demon Castle War not a serious goal?  You of all people should remember that Megaman Legends 3 was the stuff of fanboy fairytales just a few years ago.

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Operation Rainfall is about getting Nintendo of America to Localize 3 particular high profile games (Xenoblade, The Last Story, Pandora's Tower) that American gamers have been highly expecting since their announcement, and have been snubbed, with Xenoblade being the only of the 3 with a planned American Release, the other 2 so far only having European Loalizations planned.

100,000 strong is about getting Capcom to resume development of Mega Man Legends 3, a game that many Mega Man fans have waited for 10 years to happen, finally got their wish, and then had Capcom pull the plug, breaking their own promises that the prototype would be the test run to gauge interest, and instead basing their estimated unit sales on the Devroom member numbers, when they themselves stated that fans were not required to join the Devroom to follow the game's development, and citing unspecified "criteria" that was not met as the reason for cancellation. And later had Capcom of Europe blame the cancellation on Fans not caring enough.

Those are real, legitimate Goals. The American Localization by NoA of 3 High profile games that have already been stated to have PAL releases, and the revived Development of a cancelled Game that Capcom broke their word on.

None of them are just DEMANDING new games. Operation Rainfall's games are very real and existent, and 100,000 strong's Legends 3 Prototype was practically already finished and awaiting release before it was cancelled. All Capcom needs to do is honor their original promise of gouging interest via the Prototype's sales. AKA Release the prototype that was already finished.

Then by your own logic, Megaman Legends 3 should never have happened --because it was the vocal demands of the fans that got the project started in the first place.  As a matter of fact, if Capcom had never announced Legends 3, it would still be just another pipe dream --much as the Demon Castle War remains today.  With all this talk about what is or isn't a worthy goal, I wonder...  Do you have the honesty to admit the Demon Castle War is at least a more ambitious goal, precisely because it was never in development?  Either way, these operations should be about WHAT THE FANS WANT, not these sleazy, double-crossing business practices, or how far project X was actually in development.  I understand your passion, but why are you going so far out of your way to make this a contest, Flame?

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Ge'choo some real goals, and maybe a better name,(OA just cant stay, sorry. Many people outside the fanbase wouldnt get what it means. Try for "Operation Castlevania" even.) then we can all talk.

With Cox admitting, Lords of Shadow is not an Akumajo Dracula game --he’s given us an even stronger platform.  Why would we throw away the name, when it so clearly illustrates who we are and what we stand for?  As for the Castlevania fans that have never heard of Akumajo Dracula, that’s a shame in itself and worthy challenge to overcome.  I’m looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on January 03, 2012, 10:36:38 AM
In your humble opinion, Flame.  I understand that the CVD has a handful of critics, but outside of this echo chamber Castlevania has tens of thousands of fans --most of whom have never even heard of OA.  Do you really presume to speak for all of them?  Or are you comfortable enough in your opinions to let them judge OA for themselves?
Im not speaking for anyone else. Im speaking from my own opinions- You are just demanding games through this movement. For no other reason than because you think they should make those games. What if I dont like CV3, and instead want CV2 remastered in HD? I might start my own facebook group! Ill call it... "Bloody Tears Movement"

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How is Demon Castle War not a serious goal?  You of all people should remember that Megaman Legends 3 was the stuff of fanboy fairytales just a few years ago.
Indeed it was. But Fans did not demand Capcom to make the game like you are. We constantly bombarded Inafune and Capcom with the question of when they would make Legends 3. Even petitions might have circulated. but nothing like what you are doing. This movement you are heading is about demanding Konami make you games. Let's concentrate for the sake of comparisons, on the Demon Castle War. We dont DEMAND from Konami, we just show support, and ask of them and IGA when they will make it. And hope they someday will. It's nice that you want to be proactive about it, but demanding they make it is not going to get you anywhere.

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Then by your own logic, Megaman Legends 3 should never have happened --because it was the vocal demands of the fans that got the project started in the first place.
except that vocal demand was not in the same manner as OA. It was the vocal demand of fans, who simply kept asking for the game for 10 years straight, asking inafune, giving him lottery tickets to use on the game if he won, and showing fan support of the Legends series. petitions, independent fan letters to capcom, etc. And Inafune eventually decided to try to make it, and managed to get the authorization for a prototype which would ultimately decide the Game's greenlight.

what eventually became 100,000 strong, started BEFORE the cancellation- during that period when Universe was cancelled, and there was no news regarding Legends 3 and it's development. It was a fan movement to show support for the game, asking fans to mail letters to Capcom to show them that the fans do care about the game, since we were all worried about it possibly being cancelled. Unfortunately, it cancelled just about when that started.

 
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As a matter of fact, if Capcom had never announced Legends 3, it would still be just another pipe dream --much as the Demon Castle War remains today.
Yes. And Fans would still be wondering when Capcom would make it.

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With all this talk about what is or isn't a worthy goal, I wonder...  Do you have the honesty to admit the Demon Castle War is at least a more ambitious goal, precisely because it was never in development?
Oh ill admit that. Demon Castle War is definitely a far better goal than demanding a remastered CV3, but that doesnt quite make it a good goal itself. At least not the way you are currently handling it.

 
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Either way, these operations should be about WHAT THE FANS WANT, not these sleazy, double-crossing business practices, or how far project X was actually in development.  I understand your passion, but why are you going so far out of your way to make this a contest, Flame?
There's no contest. It IS about what fans want. Simply I do not think you are handling your operation properly, and have unrealistic demanding goals.

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With Cox admitting, Lords of Shadow is not an Akumajo Dracula game --he’s given us an even stronger platform.  Why would we throw away the name, when it so clearly illustrates who we are and what we stand for?  As for the Castlevania fans that have never heard of Akumajo Dracula, that’s a shame in itself and worthy challenge to overcome.  I’m looking forward to it.
I wouldnt put too much stock in Cox's blabbering about Akumajo Dracula and Castlevania. Its the same thing, different name. Only difference is one refers to Dracula specifically, the other doesnt. Rockman/Megaman.    Akumajo Dracula/Castlevania

I suggest Operation Castlevania simply because Operation Akumajo is a more cumbersome name reliant upon people's knowledge about Akumajo Dracula being the Japanese name of the Castlevania franchise. Operation Castlevania rolls off the tongue easier, and simply is more accessible to those outiside the castlevania fanbase.

If I were to give you a suggestion on HOW to do this, I would suggest dropping the CV3 demand, and making it about the Demon Castle war, and instead of making it about DEMANDING it from Konami, make it a fan support thing. try and gather as many supporters as possible, do fan stuff, show support for the idea, and show Konami that fans really want it. Make it so the fans are a bit more vocal.

I hate to keep using it as an example, but make it like 100,000 strong basically. I cant quite explain what i mean, but look at their leadership structure. I cant quite tell who is in charge, because it is more than just one person, and each one does different things. And the fans themselves are very active in participation. To the point that you could be forgiven for not realizing there even is a leadership.

You get what im digging at? make it about fan support, not baseless demands.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 04, 2012, 12:13:29 AM
Im not speaking for anyone else. Im speaking from my own opinions- You are just demanding games through this movement. For no other reason than because you think they should make those games. What if I dont like CV3, and instead want CV2 remastered in HD? I might start my own facebook group! Ill call it... "Bloody Tears Movement"

OA never came together to tell Konami what a great job they’re doing.  We came together as hardcore fans to protest and make our desires known.  The Demon Castle War and the CV3 remake have been widely speculated, discussed, and coveted by the fans for many, many years prior to OA’s founding.  Both games polled favorably here at the CVD, and both games were consistently requested on the Official Castlevania Facebook Page’s 25th Anniversary Topic.  So like I said before, this is about what the fans want, so if you don’t believe in the legitimacy of Operation: Akumajo’s goals, then you need not participate.  But you serve no one in this community by belittling a cause nearly 300 of your fellow Castlevania fans believe in.

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Indeed it was. But Fans did not demand Capcom to make the game like you are. We constantly bombarded Inafune and Capcom with the question of when they would make Legends 3. Even petitions might have circulated. but nothing like what you are doing. This movement you are heading is about demanding Konami make you games. Let's concentrate for the sake of comparisons, on the Demon Castle War. We dont DEMAND from Konami, we just show support, and ask of them and IGA when they will make it. And hope they someday will. It's nice that you want to be proactive about it, but demanding they make it is not going to get you anywhere.

Just a couple points here...  First, you’re making an argument of style over substance, in terms of how fans communicate their needs to companies like Capcom or Konami.  Using the social media as a tool for the fans to speak collectively is a new idea --an idea that simply didn’t exist in the long years leading up to Capcom’s announcement of Legends 3.  OA is attempting to capitalize on the precedent that’s been set by these other fan operations, but as you’ve already pointed out, there is one very important difference.  OA seeks the development of Castlevania games that do not currently exist, and without a newsworthy game to help raise awareness of our cause --we’re building our community without the luxury of the mainstream publicity that these other fan operations have enjoyed.

Castlevania also doesn’t seem to have many champions in the media, like those supporting the Rainfall games or Legends 3.  I suppose it made sense to bombard Inafune when was the go-to guy for all things Megaman, but Castlevania is really in a much different situation.  Think about it.  Would it really make sense to harass IGA about the Demon Castle War if Konami’s already handed Castlevania over to someone else?  And what good would it do to pester David Cox when he’s clearly more interested  in pursuing his own agenda?  There’s no sympathetic go-to guy for Castlevania fans to cling to, just a faceless company that seems oblivious...

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except that vocal demand was not in the same manner as OA. It was the vocal demand of fans, who simply kept asking for the game for 10 years straight, asking inafune, giving him lottery tickets to use on the game if he won, and showing fan support of the Legends series. petitions, independent fan letters to capcom, etc. And Inafune eventually decided to try to make it, and managed to get the authorization for a prototype which would ultimately decide the Game's greenlight.

Fans show their support by purchasing the games, but being proactive about telling the company what you actually want takes it to a whole new level.  Operation: Akumajo is a centralized approach where the fans have a collective voice, but what you’re talking about here is a decentralized approach where the fans speak with their own voices through fan letters and such...  It certainly helps when you can direct that fanmail to a willing insider like Kenji Inafune, but now that he’s gone --all Megaman fans can do is vent their anger to yet another faceless company...

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what eventually became 100,000 strong, started BEFORE the cancellation- during that period when Universe was cancelled, and there was no news regarding Legends 3 and it's development. It was a fan movement to show support for the game, asking fans to mail letters to Capcom to show them that the fans do care about the game, since we were all worried about it possibly being cancelled. Unfortunately, it cancelled just about when that started.

The writing was on the wall, the moment Inafune left.  It’s really too bad he couldn’t stay long enough to see it through...

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Yes. And Fans would still be wondering when Capcom would make it.
Oh ill admit that. Demon Castle War is definitely a far better goal than demanding a remastered CV3, but that doesnt quite make it a good goal itself. At least not the way you are currently handling it.

The goals should focus on what the fans want --simple as that.  As for how the group works toward those goals, that’s really a separate discussion.  If you don’t agree with how I’m handling the operation, you’re more than welcome to step up and set a better example.

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There's no contest. It IS about what fans want. Simply I do not think you are handling your operation properly, and have unrealistic demanding goals.
I wouldnt put too much stock in Cox's blabbering about Akumajo Dracula and Castlevania. Its the same thing, different name. Only difference is one refers to Dracula specifically, the other doesnt. Rockman/Megaman.    Akumajo Dracula/Castlevania

Yes. That’s the way we look at it.  But Cox’s recent comments clearly indicate that he views Castlevania as its own brand, with LoS as a “separate universe” from Akumajo Dracula under that brand.  It muddies the water, but it’s certainly more appealing than calling LoS a reboot.  This is part of the reason why the Mission Statement was changed to endorse a multiversal approach to Castlevania.  It’s a live and let live philosophy that really opens the door to fans of both universes.

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I suggest Operation Castlevania simply because Operation Akumajo is a more cumbersome name reliant upon people's knowledge about Akumajo Dracula being the Japanese name of the Castlevania franchise. Operation Castlevania rolls off the tongue easier, and simply is more accessible to those outiside the castlevania fanbase.

I know what you’re saying, and I gave it serious consideration at one point, but the name simply fits.  Operation Rainfall did alright without mentioning each of its 3 games, so I’m sure we’ll be alright.

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If I were to give you a suggestion on HOW to do this, I would suggest dropping the CV3 demand, and making it about the Demon Castle war, and instead of making it about DEMANDING it from Konami, make it a fan support thing. try and gather as many supporters as possible, do fan stuff, show support for the idea, and show Konami that fans really want it. Make it so the fans are a bit more vocal.

We haven’t done any viral campaigning in about 3 months, but there is a Demon Castle War project in the works.  It may take some time, but it will be the centerpiece of the next viral campaign.  As for CV3, it’s still on the Mission Statement, but it’s going to be treated as the secondary priority for now.

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I hate to keep using it as an example, but make it like 100,000 strong basically. I cant quite explain what i mean, but look at their leadership structure. I cant quite tell who is in charge, because it is more than just one person, and each one does different things. And the fans themselves are very active in participation. To the point that you could be forgiven for not realizing there even is a leadership.

You get what im digging at? make it about fan support, not baseless demands.

Capcom has truly galvanized the Megaman Community with their incompetence --it was one terrible decision after another...  I endorsed 100,000 Strong a couple months ago --not only because I believe in the cause, but because I understand that the outcome will impact the whole industry, and help legitimize hardcore gaming fans as a force to be reckoned with.  But I digress...

Leadership is not easy to come by.  People have school, careers, familes, social lives, and of course hardcore gaming...  I’ve had a couple people offering private advice, but nobody can commit the time and energy for full-time leadership.  Hopefully that changes --my door is always open.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Successor The Cruel on January 04, 2012, 12:46:50 AM
^ You sent me a message long ago about forming some kind of council, which I just now got the chance to read. I may be able to help so long as it doesn't involve harassing anyone or making a fool of myself.

My thought is that you'd have to take things out of fan forums and try to get acknowledgment from a more general crowd for this type of thing to be worth a damn.

You'd need a clear, well-defined goal.

You'd need to not appear desperate, bizarre, or like a crazy fan, because you'd lose everyone's sympathy and support, even people who may want the same thing you do.

You'd also need some kind of better, more consistent base to clarify your goals and important messages. A forum is for active content, and important things can be buried there. You'd need something for static content. I do have a big ass website that I keep meaning to do something with, but, you know, life. I'm just now getting over a terrible illness, and I've been wrapped up in some other projects of mine, but I am interested in working on some Castlevania stuff again.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Danial on January 04, 2012, 10:22:42 AM
Trying to get Konami to make a game that goes against their current plan for the CV franchise will be nearly impossible at the moment.  They are invested in the LoS series, and it's going to take a major financial failure for them to change their minds and directions.

What you should have been focusing on this entire time is their dismissal of the franchises 25th anniversary.  Not every fan wants the games you're trying to push, but I'm pretty sure most of the fans were expecting some sort of celebratory product and acknowledgment of Castlevania's history and its importance as a property.  Hell, even non-CV fans can recognize it as one of the original pillars of the industry, so they would probably support this idea also.

Something like this would have allowed Konami to continue with their current plans while appeasing the fractured fanbase and touting their own horn to the rest of the gaming community that they created one of the more important original franchises.  This would have been a much easier goal to start with and accomplish.  Plus, if it succeeded, it would have given OA a sturdier platform of support to base its next request on.

Unfortunately the 25th is over.  Next best thing is the 30th I guess...
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on January 04, 2012, 03:33:37 PM
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We intend to make our points forcefully, because that's the nature of activism --but we intend to do so as reasonably and as responsibly as possible.
There is no need for bitching to be taken rather not seriously. Too many  demands AKA "Forceful demands" is enough.

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With that said, MGS also enjoys the rare luxury of a producer who is the sitting Vice President of Konami Digital Entertainment.
He became vice-president in the past year. Before this he was the head of the substudio of Konami. He was very influental I guess, but not in that position anyway.

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Looking at this situation objectively, you can’t possibly deny that these are the ideal conditions for any game to be developed --MGS or otherwise.
It doesn't make Castlevania less niche game. As it was said before it is natural that Konami will cash in on something succesfull. CV is not that successfull at the moment, so it take a sit. And in case of CV there is nothing to rerelease in HD, considering that 3D games by your favorite IGA were not that succesfull.

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You’d think Konami might have some people studying the console market, people who take notice when a 2-D game like Super Mario Bros Wii sells 24 million copies...  Sonic Generations has only been out for a couple months, and it’s already started running circles around Lords of Shadow’s Global sales...
Considering that Mario and Sonic are amongst most popular characters / brands in video game history it shouldn't be that surprising. Practically any other game will lose to them in terms of sales, so it's have nothing to do with LOS being Castlevania. Any other Castlevania or practically any other franchise will lose to them too.

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How is Demon Castle War not a serious goal?  You of all people should remember that Megaman Legends 3 was the stuff of fanboy fairytales just a few years ago.
But there is quite difference - MML3 was being made (at least as prototype), while DCW was never real game to begin with.

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But you serve no one in this community by belittling a cause nearly 300 of your fellow Castlevania fans believe in.
"Nearly 300"? I'm in awe!! That's like the whole lot of people.

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Something like this would have allowed Konami to continue with their current plans while appeasing the fractured fanbase and touting their own horn to the rest of the gaming community that they created one of the more important original franchises.
That's the problem: some guys couldn't accept LOS-style as Castlevania. And it'll boil to the fact that this guys either need to forget about glorious 2D-HD version (that ineviatbly cause more whining) or not demand it at all.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Vrakanox on January 04, 2012, 04:30:24 PM
Trying to get Konami to make a game that goes against their current plan for the CV franchise will be nearly impossible at the moment.  They are invested in the LoS series, and it's going to take a major financial failure for them to change their minds and directions.

Can we really be so sure that IGA or someone else isn't developing the demon castle wars or something similar for the 3DS or VITA?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 04, 2012, 04:40:39 PM
^ You sent me a message long ago about forming some kind of council, which I just now got the chance to read. I may be able to help so long as it doesn't involve harassing anyone or making a fool of myself.

You had suggested a fan council a long time ago and I really liked the idea, but I was a little confused if you were talking about using it to lead OA --or if you had something entirely separate in mind.  I started a topic about the time I sent you that PM but nobody else really seemed committed to the idea.  And I don't think it's because the fans don't care, everyone just seems to be very very busy.  I happen to be at a unique point in my life where I have some extra time that I can really dedicate myself to something like this, but that luxury won't last forever --and that's why I'm willing to compromise some ideals to get some help managing OA.

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My thought is that you'd have to take things out of fan forums and try to get acknowledgment from a more general crowd for this type of thing to be worth a damn.

You're absolutely right.  The viral campaigning has already reached the hardest of the hardcore here and elsewhere.  Regardless of the tweaks that have (and still can) be made to the Mission Statement, most of the hardcore have already made their judgments.  The mystery right now is how to reach thousands of wayward fans that are preoccupied with other games --without the advantage of mainstream media support.

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You'd need a clear, well-defined goal.

I'm planning to sharpen the focus on the Demon Castle War, but there is a problem with the Mission Statement being a bit long-winded.  The very first draft of the mission was just a few sentences that came across way too abrasive without any context or explanation for the demands.  The rewrite focused on explaining the group philosophy, the grievances with Konami, and detailing the goals.  Since then, about half a dozen tweaks have softened the language, embraced the multiverse, and clarified the pro-Akumajo Dracula philosophy.

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You'd need to not appear desperate, bizarre, or like a crazy fan, because you'd lose everyone's sympathy and support, even people who may want the same thing you do.

Passion comes across to different people in different ways.  I know some fans are turned off by the zeal, but the alternative is to let a few condescending critics disparage and smear the group, and I just can't allow that.  There's really nothing wrong with fair and thoughtful criticism --as long as it *is* fair and thoughtful.

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You'd also need some kind of better, more consistent base to clarify your goals and important messages. A forum is for active content, and important things can be buried there. You'd need something for static content. I do have a big ass website that I keep meaning to do something with, but, you know, life. I'm just now getting over a terrible illness, and I've been wrapped up in some other projects of mine, but I am interested in working on some Castlevania stuff again.

YES!  You are absolutely right about this!  I can't tell you how many times I've needed to reexplain something because someone either hasn't read the whole topic, or isn't familiar with past topics!  When I started the operation on Facebook, I really underestimated the value of static page content.  The Mission Statement *really* needs to be more easily accessible --I wish I could make it required reading for anyone interested in the group.

Trying to get Konami to make a game that goes against their current plan for the CV franchise will be nearly impossible at the moment.  They are invested in the LoS series, and it's going to take a major financial failure for them to change their minds and directions.

Konami doesn't need to stop supporting Akumajo Dracula just because LoS2 is in the works.  That's just an illusion we've been living under ever since LoS was first labeled a "reboot".  The fact is Konami *can* do both at the same time --that's why the Mission Statement was changed to endorse a Multiversal approach to Castlevania.

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What you should have been focusing on this entire time is their dismissal of the franchises 25th anniversary.  Not every fan wants the games you're trying to push, but I'm pretty sure most of the fans were expecting some sort of celebratory product and acknowledgment of Castlevania's history and its importance as a property.  Hell, even non-CV fans can recognize it as one of the original pillars of the industry, so they would probably support this idea also.

Something like this would have allowed Konami to continue with their current plans while appeasing the fractured fanbase and touting their own horn to the rest of the gaming community that they created one of the more important original franchises.  This would have been a much easier goal to start with and accomplish.  Plus, if it succeeded, it would have given OA a sturdier platform of support to base its next request on.

Unfortunately the 25th is over.  Next best thing is the 30th I guess...

Our last campaign actually started on the 25th Anniversary --we posted the tribute video, started an email campaign, and publicly encouraged our fellow fans to purchase HD, Rebirth, or VC games to show their support.  That was also when we started engaging the Official Castlevania Facebook Page directly by posting group propaganda and critical commentary regarding Konami's handling of the Anniversary. Unfortunately, OA was only a couple months old at the time --with less than 200 members, there was only so much that we could do.  Its' also important to note, the mainstream gaming media pretty much snubbed Castlevania's 25th as well --if they had raised the awareness a bit more, that would have put some more public pressure on Konami...
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: beingthehero on January 04, 2012, 05:18:35 PM
If you post that CV 1999 trailer with my voice over, I guarantee the game will become reality.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 04, 2012, 05:57:56 PM
There is no need for bitching to be taken rather not seriously. Too many  demands AKA "Forceful demands" is enough

I'm sorry, this comment isn't quite coherent...  Are you trying to say that it's bitchy for the fans to come together and tell Konami what they really want?

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He became vice-president in the past year. Before this he was the head of the substudio of Konami. He was very influental I guess, but not in that position anyway.

Before he was Vice President of Konami Digital Entertainment, he was Vice President of Konami Computer Entertainment of Japan.  Although I have no sources to confirm the complete chronology of his career, I'll bet he had a nice seat at Konami's corporate table long before either Vice Presidency.

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It doesn't make Castlevania less niche game. As it was said before it is natural that Konami will cash in on something succesfull. CV is not that successfull at the moment, so it take a sit.

I never denied Castlevania's niche status.  I was simply illustrating how a well connected producer gets the top talent and funding he needs to make the high quality games he wants.  The fact is most other producers actually need to sell their ideas and live on limited budgets awarded by the brass that hardly give a damn about their art.

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And in case of CV there is nothing to rerelease in HD, considering that 3D games by your favorite IGA were not that succesfull.

I must admit, I have a soft spot for Lament, but I agree the 3-D games have damaged the Castlevania brand.  Also, I never said IGA was my favorite.  He's needed for the Demon Castle War, because that was his story and his vision.  Beyond that, I'm sure there are other men that can do Akumajo Dracula justice.

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Considering that Mario and Sonic are amongst most popular characters / brands in video game history it shouldn't be that surprising. Practically any other game will lose to them in terms of sales, so it's have nothing to do with LOS being Castlevania. Any other Castlevania or practically any other franchise will lose to them too.

I acknowledge that.  Still, it will be interesting to see how Generations' sales ultimately compares to Sonic's recent 3-D outings...

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But there is quite difference - MML3 was being made (at least as prototype), while DCW was never real game to begin with.

I've already acknowledged that numerous times *see conversation with Flame on this very page!*

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"Nearly 300"? I'm in awe!! That's like the whole lot of people.

The fact is every movement begins with one person's idea, and no matter how many other people join, there will always be trolls saying 500 isn't enough, 1000 isn't enough, 2000 isn't enough, 5000 isn't enough, 10,000 isn't enough... etc, etc, etc...

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That's the problem: some guys couldn't accept LOS-style as Castlevania. And it'll boil to the fact that this guys either need to forget about glorious 2D-HD version (that ineviatbly cause more whining) or not demand it at all.

Did it occur to you that Konami may actually be able to support both forms of Castlevania?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Danial on January 04, 2012, 05:58:28 PM
Can we really be so sure that IGA or someone else isn't developing the demon castle wars or something similar for the 3DS or VITA?

Never absolutely sure, because Konami's not going to divulge that level of information.  But they've stated they want to take the franchise in a different direction.  That leads me to believe they don't want to continue down Iga's path.

Konami doesn't need to stop supporting Akumajo Dracula just because LoS2 is in the works.  That's just an illusion we've been living under ever since LoS was first labeled a "reboot".  The fact is Konami *can* do both at the same time --that's why the Mission Statement was changed to endorse a Multiversal approach to Castlevania.

They don't have to, but they probably will.  Konami's looking for a fresh take on CV, hoping to make it relevant to the majority of the gaming community again.  They want people to pay attention to this new project, which is why they don't want to distract from it by making another new game that doesn't tie in somehow.  It's not about a multiverse for them, it's about focusing on one specific brand image.

Our last campaign actually started on the 25th Anniversary --we posted the tribute video, started an email campaign, and publicly encouraged our fellow fans to purchase HD, Rebirth, or VC games to show their support.  That was also when we started engaging the Official Castlevania Facebook Page directly by posting group propaganda and critical commentary regarding Konami's handling of the Anniversary. Unfortunately, OA was only a couple months old at the time --with less than 200 members, there was only so much that we could do.  Its' also important to note, the mainstream gaming media pretty much snubbed Castlevania's 25th as well --if they had raised the awareness a bit more, that would have put some more public pressure on Konami...

The biggest problem for all of the fans is that we learned there wasn't any plans for the 25th Anniversary until after it was too late to really do anything about it.  That's Konami's bad, and it's one of the things that we should hold them to task for.

Another easier goal would have also been to push for more content and levels for Harmony of Despair.  I bought that game when it finally came to the Playstation and I was surprised to discover it was actually fun, especially when you're playing with a group.  It's biggest problem is that it gets repetitive quickly with only so many areas and characters, which is something that shouldn't happen since CV has an enormous catalog of protagonists, bosses, and locations to choose from.

Small things like this, which can be done with limited financial requirements and that don't take away from their larger goals, are what Konami is likely to meet you half way on.   

Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: beingthehero on January 04, 2012, 06:34:40 PM
If Konami wanted the series to be relevant, they'd tried to be ahead of the curve with their 3D games, rather than rip-off various existing franchises from the PS2 generation. Castlevania still appears to be a niche series even now. Even though they were released long before Lords, God of War III and/or Bayonetta seem to be the focus of attention on other gaming forums when there is discussion of the best 3D action games. Lords is hardly ever mentioned, if at all.

Frankly, Konami is right that their focus shouldn't be 2D games. Those are great for handhelds, and I hope IGA does one for the 3DS. But 3D is where the money is, but Konami really ought to go back to the roots, and I don't mean vague bullshit like 'it's linear! so that means it's like the old games!" which is as much justification as saying God of War is a classic castlevania game because it's also linear or any other linear game in the world. Castlevania needs to do something to set itself apart, and having a game with god of war controls/weapon, shadow of the colossus boss fights, metal gear solid twist-ending, Internet Meme Jokes, and Lord of the Rings aesthetics isn't the way to go. You can't appeal to a mass Western audience by saying "look at our game, it's exactly like the things you all liked 6 years ago, back in 2006!" It's no better than KCET shoe-horning anime plots/designs/grinding to appeal to the Japanese market. Such as then, they're still playing catch-up to an audience that already moved on. I'm surprised they didn't add Nazis Zombies, because Call of Duty has Nazi Zombies and those sell and please buy our game we have everything cool that you kids like just please like us we'll even give you our lunch money please please please. Even this site's founder, Kurt Kalata-kun, pointed out the severe deficit of originality in Lords and how it made him want to play Lament of Innocence instead. And Kurt is not much of a Lament fan.

(Of course, Lords also did several things right. The graphics and the sheer detail in the stages were slick, very slick, and the Castle was beautifully done.)

They ought to ditch high fantasy and go back to vampires (and not Warcraft Eradar labeled as vampires.) Cox-kun and the like need to watch Nosferatu and the 1992 Dracula. No games today opt for a classic vampiric feel, but too many have already emulated the high-fantasy, lord of the rings shtick. Have the other games try to emulate you, rather than vice-versa.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Neobelmont on January 04, 2012, 10:58:15 PM

Did it occur to you that Konami may actually be able to support both forms of Castlevania?

True if nintendo can do it for mario and heck if my memory serves me correct Namco Bandai had team symphonia AND team destiny work on the tales series both 2D and 3D. symphonia with games like well symphonia,abyss and vesperia I believe and team destiny with destiny, destiny 2 , and tales of rebirth,  now anyone can correct me if I am wrong but having two talents is better than one and if both had a budget than all would be good.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on January 05, 2012, 04:42:15 AM
Castlevania needs to do something to set itself apart, and having a game with god of war controls/weapon, shadow of the colossus boss fights, metal gear solid twist-ending, Internet Meme Jokes, and Lord of the Rings aesthetics isn't the way to go. You can't appeal to a mass Western audience by saying "look at our game, it's exactly like the things you all liked 6 years ago, back in 2006!" It's no better than KCET shoe-horning anime plots/designs/grinding to appeal to the Japanese market. Such as then, they're still playing catch-up to an audience that already moved on.

It may be too late for that, at least in the 3D third-person action genre. It seems like most truly original avenues in that genre have been explored. The SotC boss fights scattered here and there were actually one of the less all-pervasive mechanics they could've used, but it didn't really help set the game apart since it's just one small aspect of the game anyway rather than something that had an effect on the majority of the game. I get the feeling that in order to not be thought of as "another God of War clone" by the gaming public at large, a 3D Castlevania would have to go with a different genre, yet a genre that still works for its themes and atmosphere.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Nagumo on January 05, 2012, 04:58:14 AM
random question: if you post on the wall of the offical castlevania fanpage, can anyone see it or only the person who maintains it?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: JR on January 05, 2012, 05:29:59 AM
Not by default, but someone could easily see it by toggling the wall view to "Everyone (Most Recent)" at the top of the page.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on January 05, 2012, 08:00:27 AM
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There is no need for bitching to be taken rather not seriously. Too many  demands AKA "Forceful demands" is enough
I'll explain: what you made are sevearl "forcefull demands". But demanding too much is practically as bad as demanding something forcefully, especially, when the people you demanding from, are not exactly in position where they MUST cater to your demands.

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He's needed for the Demon Castle War, because that was his story and his vision.  Beyond that, I'm sure there are other men that can do Akumajo Dracula justice.
Sorry, but this is where I am completely in disagreement with you. Given that it was exactly IGA's vision that make the series canon what it is now, I personally don't want to trust to him any key decisions regarding that matter. As for "his vision" mostly it was work of Ayami Kojima - she created that unique atmospehre with her concepts. As soon as art direction changed to animeisque most of the IGA's vision (if not all of it) went out of the window.
If anything she is the key member of the previous CV team(s) that should return on board. As for IGA - he did his part. He outlined the storyline of DCW and thing that someone else must elaborate on it, otherwise it would end up as crazy mess like AOS or execution completely kill anything good about the story (like POR or to lesser degree LOI).

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I acknowledge that.  Still, it will be interesting to see how Generations' sales ultimately compares to Sonic's recent 3-D outings...
It is not very fair to compare different outing by the same franchise, when we talk about other series in general.
Aside from that, given how notorious 3D Sonic games were, it would be a rather a dubious attempt.

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there will always be trolls saying 500 isn't enough, 1000 isn't enough, 2000 isn't enough, 5000 isn't enough, 10,000 isn't enough... etc, etc, etc...
1000 maybe enough. But 300 is not very much really. Konami must be interested to sell this game. And 300 people is not a serious consumer base. Especally given the scope of the project you propose.

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Did it occur to you that Konami may actually be able to support both forms of Castlevania?
And they should do it because you desire it personally?
It was already explained why Konami most likely will abandon previous formulas. They want to make CV big franchise once again and for that there should be only one version of it. Otherwise it would confuse potential buyers and ultimately could even harm sales, if there would be two radicaly different big projects under the same name. Talking about stepping on your own toes.

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They ought to ditch high fantasy and go back to vampires (and not Warcraft Eradar labeled as vampires.)
Considering how little CV had vampires in the past, that statement is strange to say the least.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: beingthehero on January 05, 2012, 08:18:47 AM
You don't remember the vampires from CV64? That was one of the best things about the game.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on January 05, 2012, 11:34:56 AM
Thats the one game.

Every other game only has Vampires as bosses/main story enemies.

LoS is the only other game besides CV64 to have stage enemy vampires.

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crazy mess like AOS
Whats wrong with AoS?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: beingthehero on January 05, 2012, 01:12:26 PM
You also forgot OoE's vampire waifus and SotN's Bitterflies (Mayan vampires). But what I really meant was, a vampiric mood. Like SCIV, Bloodlines, CV2...not the epic fantasy merlin sword in the stone schlock.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: e105beta on January 05, 2012, 02:00:51 PM
Flame already made many of my points, perhaps in a nicer way than I would have put it, but:

This isn’t about Castlevania, but humor me a moment and watch the entire video.
**not safe for work**

Capcom Says Fans Are to Blame for Mega Man Legends 3 Being Cancelled (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqwYDdTl-tc#ws)

This man is bitching, moaning, self-entitled, demanding, vulgar, and unprofessional --he IS the bratty kid that didn't get the game he wanted for Christmas....  But you know what?  He has a legitimate complaint and a rational argument, and I support his message and his cause 110% --because he's right.

Operation: Akumajo is a protest against Konami's treatment of Castlevania.  Our cause is the preservation of Akumajo Dracula and the 2-D artform.  Our specific goals are the development of both the Demon Castle War and the remastering of Dracula's Curse.  And contrary to all the sanctimonious comments in this topic, OA doesn't produce or circulate anything close to this kind of vulgar, vitriolic material.  We intend to make our points forcefully, because that's the nature of activism --but we intend to do so as reasonably and as responsibly as possible.

I will give you as many points as you want for not being an angry basement kid posting videos like this.

And to be honest, while it might not seem like it, I appreciate your goals. I loved Lords of Shadow, and while I'm a bit ambivalent on the fate of the Metroidvania, I wouldn't want to see the Classicvania's I so love disappear from the face of the earth. I, however, accept the fact that, before Lords of Shadow, Castlevania had dropped off the map and that the people who want a game such as you are proposing are very few and far in between in comparison to the overall market.

But that's the thing, you're not proposing. You're demanding. They've given you a Castlevania game, and you didn't like it, and now you're fighting against every purchase that has made Lords of Shadow more profitable to Konami than all of the low selling Castlevania games of yesteryear.

It's not like Konami canceled the Demon Castle War game or is failing to bring it overseas. It doesn't exist. It's never existed. There's never been any plans for it, and in order to not look like a complaining niche fan group, you're going to have to provide Konami with some big numbers and some hard facts if you want to convince them to make your game. It's essentially a pitch, and half of a pitch is market statistics. Outside of that, the movement comes off as exceedingly entitled because it is sending the message that Konami owes them a game, which they absolutely do not, and Operation Akumajo will be better off when it understands that.

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When you see a game selling multi-millions like Metal Gear Solid, you can look at a variety of reasons why --genre, story, gameplay, marketing, etc... But I’ll stand by what I’ve said over and over throughout this topic about quality.

MGS games are high quality products designed by some of the most experienced and talented professionals in the industry.  With that said, MGS also enjoys the rare luxury of a producer who is the sitting Vice President of Konami Digital Entertainment.  Wielding that kind of power immediately eliminates many of the financial obstacles that most other game producers are forced to deal with.  Looking at this situation objectively, you can’t possibly deny that these are the ideal conditions for any game to be developed --MGS or otherwise.

While Castlevania’s 25th Anniversary passed without any fanfare, Konami made it a higher priority to repackage HD versions of their PS2 MGS games that are already widely owned and abundantly available to those that don’t at cheap prices.  Let’s consider the example of Snake Eater.  Metal Gear Solid 3 had its original release way back in 2004, Subsistence in 2006, the Essential Collection in 2008, the HD Collection in 2011, and now the 3DS version is due in the next couple months.  This kind of saturation almost harkens back to how greedily Capcom exploited Street Fighter II back in the 90’s --and we all know how that eventually ended...

You’d think Konami might have some people studying the console market, people who take notice when a 2-D game like Super Mario Bros Wii sells 24 million copies...  Sonic Generations has only been out for a couple months, and it’s already started running circles around Lords of Shadow’s Global sales...  Of course, you could easily chalk that up to the genre or brand recognition, but the fact is if Konami really wanted to dip their toe in the water (at a bare minimum of expense) they could easily do so by giving the Dracula X Chronicles the Peace Walker treatment.  As for OA, give it time...

Whether or not Kojima is flouting his status in order to pump out Metal Gear Solid games is irrelevant. It's like complaining that Nintendo makes less Metroid games than Mario games because Miyamoto didn't make Metroid. When it comes to brass tacks, Mario sells more than Metroid, despite the high quality of such titles as Metroid Prime. Likewise, Metal Gear Solid, for one reason or another, has a larger market appeal and a larger fanbase, and thus Metal Gear Solid games are lower risk and higher reward than a Castlevania game. That's just how it is.

That's the thing. While both are important, in the end, market appeal is hugely important. The fact that there are high quality games every year that don't become blockbuster hits proves that.

I too was bummed that there was no fanfare for the 25th anniversary, and that's a great platform to base Operation: Akumajo off of, but going after Metal Gear Solid because of it just makes you look jealous.

Also, I'd like to point out, that while you keep pointing out Mario and Sonic, please remember that they are Mario and Sonic.

Mario and Sonic.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Esco on January 05, 2012, 07:57:21 PM
Goddamn..... this thing is up to 16 pages now!? Wow.... simply amazing.

I will say only this at this point: CECIL-KAIN I give you mad props for continuing trying to make a difference even in the face of all the adversity you are receiving from this "community."

What you are doing is definitely a way more productive attempt at getting results than all of those people in here who have nothing to offer but negative critiques of the way you are making your attempt. Most of them couldn't even commit to something like what you are doing for more than a week without going insane to the point of shaving themselves bald, gluing feathers to their asses, and calling themselves a goddamn chicken.  :P

I truly hope that you somehow get results thru some miracle; we would all probably benefit from it. And if not, well props to you for being one of the few people around who actually TRIES to get some kind of result.  8)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on January 05, 2012, 10:39:05 PM
So we are not allowed to criticize him?
Criticism is "nothing to offer"?
It's "Not productive"?

We are not bashing him or flaming him, we are giving him constructive criticism. He is heading a movement which claims to speak for Castlevania fans. And as Castlevania fans, we  are criticizing what we see as flaws in his movement. Simple as that. We just dont like his demanding self entitled approach to OA, and are presenting our opinions on why and how he should change it.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 06, 2012, 12:02:28 AM
I'll explain: what you made are sevearl "forcefull demands". But demanding too much is practically as bad as demanding something forcefully, especially, when the people you demanding from, are not exactly in position where they MUST cater to your demands.

 I see.  So you believe we’re asking too much of Konami.  Fair enough.

Quite frankly, it would be naive to believe that Konami will do everything that we’re asking for --even if we had thousands of fans behind our cause.  But the fact is that by boldly put our demands on the table, we’ve raised the expectation and applied pressure that otherwise would not exist.

I don’t know if you have children...  But if I tell my daughters to fold 6 loads of laundry before bed (knowing full well they usually do 2 or 3) they may strive for the 6, but only get 4 or 5 done loads folded.  Have they failed to meet my demands?  Yes, but they haven’t failed to improve --and improvement was the real expectation all along.  And who knows, maybe those girls would surprise me by working their tails off and getting the 6 loads folded after all --the door is certainly open for that.

My point to you is this.  The demands are a starting point for a negotiation.  Excellent results never come from lowballing the expectations.

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Sorry, but this is where I am completely in disagreement with you. Given that it was exactly IGA's vision that make the series canon what it is now, I personally don't want to trust to him any key decisions regarding that matter. As for "his vision" mostly it was work of Ayami Kojima - she created that unique atmospehre with her concepts. As soon as art direction changed to animeisque most of the IGA's vision (if not all of it) went out of the window.

If anything she is the key member of the previous CV team(s) that should return on board. As for IGA - he did his part. He outlined the storyline of DCW and thing that someone else must elaborate on it, otherwise it would end up as crazy mess like AOS or execution completely kill anything good about the story (like POR or to lesser degree LOI).

When I was talking about IGA’s vision, I was referring specifically to his plans to wrap up the continuity with 1999 storyline --not the atmosphere or art direction...  I suppose someone else could pick up where he left off, but I honestly don’t see the harm in letting him finish the job.

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It is not very fair to compare different outing by the same franchise, when we talk about other series in general.
Aside from that, given how notorious 3D Sonic games were, it would be a rather a dubious attempt.

I don’t know about that...  If we’re seriously going to evaluate the viability of the 2-D artform, it seems the most logical sales comparison would be 3-D games within the same franchise.  2-D Mario Vs 3-D Mario --2-D Sonic Vs 3-D Sonic --etc...

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1000 maybe enough. But 300 is not very much really. Konami must be interested to sell this game. And 300 people is not a serious consumer base. Especally given the scope of the project you propose.

At this point, exposure is the bigger problem.  Like I mentioned before, the DS Castlevanias sold an average of about 325,000 copies each.  And the DXC sold 354,000 copies (not including PSN downloads)  These are the fans that need to be reached to grow the movement, but let’s compare those figures to OA’s actual exposure.  The Official Castlevania Facebook page has about 158,500 fans --only a few hundred of which appear to be actively engaged.  The Castlevania Dungeon has about 1600 members --only about 100 of which appear to be actively engaged.  And finally, OA’s most popular Youtube video has about 3,300 views.  Taking these figures into consideration, we can speculate that OA has only reached a few thousand Castlevania fans AT BEST...  Meaning --many tens of thousands more have yet to be reached...

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And they should do it because you desire it personally?

No.  They should do it because there is still a well-established, extremely loyal fanbase numbering 300,000+ that is consistently willing to buy.

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It was already explained why Konami most likely will abandon previous formulas. They want to make CV big franchise once again and for that there should be only one version of it. Otherwise it would confuse potential buyers and ultimately could even harm sales, if there would be two radicaly different big projects under the same name. Talking about stepping on your own toes.

Aren't you forgetting someone?

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi732.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww327%2Fcecil-kain%2F175px-Mega_Man_Mega_Man_9.png&hash=dbce681723b79b0141553884495fafcf)

Megaman is a textbook example of how to do a Multiverse successfully.  We have Classic, X, Legends, Battle Network, Zero, ZX, and Star Force --on second thought, maybe Capcom overdid it toward the end...  Oh well, you get the idea.

Flame already made many of my points, perhaps in a nicer way than I would have put it, but:

Awe c'mon --is it that hard to be nice?  jk ;-)

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I will give you as many points as you want for not being an angry basement kid posting videos like this.

And to be honest, while it might not seem like it, I appreciate your goals. I loved Lords of Shadow, and while I'm a bit ambivalent on the fate of the Metroidvania, I wouldn't want to see the Classicvania's I so love disappear from the face of the earth. I, however, accept the fact that, before Lords of Shadow, Castlevania had dropped off the map and that the people who want a game such as you are proposing are very few and far in between in comparison to the overall market

While it's true Castlevania has declined since SotN, the handheld 2-D games maintained stable sales with the support of a very loyal fanbase.  The problem as I see it though is stagnation.  Think about it.  SotN and OoE were released nearly 12 years apart --but the graphics and overall design are so very similar, that a mainstream gamer could barely tell the difference.  Konami could have raised the bar years ago by putting a 2-D game like the DXC on a popular home console like the PS2 --instead they let Castlevania's 2-D games languish on the portables while pushing mediocre 3-D games on the consoles...

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But that's the thing, you're not proposing. You're demanding.

Have you read the Mission Statement lately?  I know it's not perfect, but it has been completely rewritten once and further tweaked half a dozen times.  The word "demand" has not appeared in the mission statement in over 5 months, and most of the other abrasive language has been significantly softened or removed.  Reading comments like this I wonder why I even bothered.  Either you're not paying any attention or there's just no pleasing you.

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They've given you a Castlevania game, and you didn't like it, and now you're fighting against every purchase that has made Lords of Shadow more profitable to Konami than all of the low selling Castlevania games of yesteryear.

There is a distinction that needs to be made here.  Rejecting LoS as a reboot doesn't necessarily equate to hating the game.  Although that is sometimes the case, you need to understand that some Akumajo fans, while appreciating LoS, also see it for the unique IP it is.  Now that the fans have had a chance to digest LoS, their continued loyalty to the Castlevania brand remains to be seen.  If I were David Cox I'd be paying *very* close attention...

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It's not like Konami canceled the Demon Castle War game or is failing to bring it overseas. It doesn't exist. It's never existed. There's never been any plans for it, and in order to not look like a complaining niche fan group, you're going to have to provide Konami with some big numbers and some hard facts if you want to convince them to make your game. It's essentially a pitch, and half of a pitch is market statistics. Outside of that, the movement comes off as exceedingly entitled because it is sending the message that Konami owes them a game, which they absolutely do not, and Operation Akumajo will be better off when it understands that.

Konami already has a wealth of sales data, so they already have a good idea how large the Castlevania fanbase actually is.  But for all of their numbers, they don't hear the voice of the fans --OA is an opportunity for the fans to speak out and tell Konami what we want.  Once Konami actually hears that voice and acknowledges our desires, then it's up to them to do their homework, and then decide if they are willing and able to meet those needs.

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Whether or not Kojima is flouting his status in order to pump out Metal Gear Solid games is irrelevant. It's like complaining that Nintendo makes less Metroid games than Mario games because Miyamoto didn't make Metroid. When it comes to brass tacks, Mario sells more than Metroid, despite the high quality of such titles as Metroid Prime. Likewise, Metal Gear Solid, for one reason or another, has a larger market appeal and a larger fanbase, and thus Metal Gear Solid games are lower risk and higher reward than a Castlevania game. That's just how it is.

Unfortunately.  It's just a matter of time before Konami overmilks their cash-cow and realizes what a bad idea it was to put so many eggs in one basket.  Reselling the same games every 2 years will not take MGS or Konami to a good place.

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That's the thing. While both are important, in the end, market appeal is hugely important. The fact that there are high quality games every year that don't become blockbuster hits proves that.

Marketing and competition are major factors as well.

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I too was bummed that there was no fanfare for the 25th anniversary, and that's a great platform to base Operation: Akumajo off of, but going after Metal Gear Solid because of it just makes you look jealous.

The 25th Anniversary was a central platform prominently featured in the Mission Statement.  The Metal Gear Solid comparison was just a bullet point on a propaganda piece.  But honestly, as a Castlevania fan, what's not to be jealous of?

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Also, I'd like to point out, that while you keep pointing out Mario and Sonic, please remember that they are Mario and Sonic.

Fair enough.

Goddamn..... this thing is up to 16 pages now!? Wow.... simply amazing.

I will say only this at this point: CECIL-KAIN I give you mad props for continuing trying to make a difference even in the face of all the adversity you are receiving from this "community."

What you are doing is definitely a way more productive attempt at getting results than all of those people in here who have nothing to offer but negative critiques of the way you are making your attempt. Most of them couldn't even commit to something like what you are doing for more than a week without going insane to the point of shaving themselves bald, gluing feathers to their asses, and calling themselves a goddamn chicken.  :P

I truly hope that you somehow get results thru some miracle; we would all probably benefit from it. And if not, well props to you for being one of the few people around who actually TRIES to get some kind of result.  8)

Esco, your comment gave very good chuckle after a very, very long day.  Thanks man.  8)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on January 06, 2012, 05:41:15 AM
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But the fact is that by boldly put our demands on the table, we’ve raised the expectation and applied pressure that otherwise would not exist. My point to you is this.  The demands are a starting point for a negotiation.  Excellent results never come from lowballing the expectations.

There is difference in how you state your demands.
One thing is to ask: "Why don't you (Konami), please, consider making a game that will be based on previous (good) 2D outings of the series? We have some stats to back up that it could be profitable project."
And another is to shout: "Hey, Konami, give us 2D Demon Castle Wars HD and remake of CV3 and forget about LOS, because WE WANT IT, DAMMIT!!!"
See the difference?

In the first you maybe will be listened. In the second you will be regarded as obsessed fanboy. The most you''ll get would a polite reply: "Thank you for your support =)." And that's that.
As others already said, only demands, epsecially if they are stated quite forcefully, wouldn't be enough to kickstart anything. Only if you have some people at Konami that will back you up. But it's likely not the case.

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When I was talking about IGA’s vision, I was referring specifically to his plans to wrap up the continuity with 1999 storyline --not the atmosphere or art direction...

I believe IGA himself not needed to finish the project. An ideal team would be: Kojima + designers behind OOE / SOTN + Ayane (possibly) + big budjet and IGA somewhere overseeing it.

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I don’t know about that...  If we’re seriously going to evaluate the viability of the 2-D artform, it seems the most logical sales comparison would be 3-D games within the same franchise.  2-D Mario Vs 3-D Mario --2-D Sonic Vs 3-D Sonic --etc...
Considering its Mario and Sonic, that's not exactly right decision.

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Meaning --many tens of thousands more have yet to be reached...
Or were reached, but not ultimately interested at all.
You need something to unite fans. And demands, especially that specific is not the way to do it. Besides, do you seriously believe that even if Konami listen to your ply, they will make the game exactly like you see it in your brain? I doubt it. So there is no neccessity to demand something that specific from them.

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No.  They should do it because there is still a well-established, extremely loyal fanbase numbering 300,000+ that is consistently willing to buy.
Loyality is such thing that it could easily go away. Especially if you demand something tailored to your own taste.

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Megaman is a textbook example of how to do a Multiverse successfully.  We have Classic, X, Legends, Battle Network, Zero, ZX, and Star Force --on second thought, maybe Capcom overdid it toward the end...  Oh well, you get the idea.
There is difference. MegaMan was like that for the last decade, this series practically breathes this trope. Castlevania never embraced this idea, except for few games that were tossed out of the canon. In general I couldn't remember any big Konami franchise that had several subseries going on at the same time (CV, Contra, MGS, SH).

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Reselling the same games every 2 years will not take MGS or Konami to a good place.
Sounds like jelaousy.
On note: last big MGS project wasn't released twice. And Peace Walker was rereleased for the new platform, so it not like it was released twice on the same console.

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Most of them couldn't even commit to something like what you are doing for more than a week without going insane to the point of shaving themselves bald, gluing feathers to their asses, and calling themselves a goddamn chicken.
 
There is difference between activity that could result in something and activity that could result in nothing. As far as I can say OA is not something that could make "a something good". But making Konami thing that old CV dans are obsessive group that lives in the past - could be a result. Besides I personally against ressurection of the 2D metroidvanias any soon. There was too many of them that offered too much of the same. I don't want CV fall into the self-repetition yet again, not after series seemingly more or less climbed out of that puddle of mud and moved on.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on January 06, 2012, 09:05:36 AM
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Megaman is a textbook example of how to do a Multiverse successfully.

Correction; Mega Man is textbook example of how to do a timeline successfully.

You've got in Mega Man, a franchise who's story successfully spans centuries.

Classic ->100yr-> X ->100yr-> Zero ->200yr-> ZX ---->undisclosed amount, possibly thousands----> Legends

There is only 1 other universe, that being the Battle Network universe, which goes Battle Network ->200yr-> Star Force

And there is one alternate timeline, which is Rockman Online, which seems to run parallel to the Zero series.


Castlevania does a timeline good too, buuuut not AS good. the Mega Man world, and everything in it consistently evolves with the time that passes. Specifically the technology within the story.

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    When I was talking about IGA’s vision, I was referring specifically to his plans to wrap up the continuity with 1999 storyline --not the atmosphere or art direction...

The problem with having IGA involved is that he tries to come up with gameplay before story or atmosphere or anything. Which affects things a bit. Especially when he tries to make sequels. I mean, look at what happened with PoR.

I just don't trust him to make a good Demon Castle War game. I feel his style of game making would mess it up. He would put too much time into trying to come up with some "unique" gameplay style, and not enough into the rest.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: e105beta on January 06, 2012, 01:44:17 PM
Awe c'mon --is it that hard to be nice?  jk ;-)

No its not. I just have a tendency to be blunt.

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While it's true Castlevania has declined since SotN, the handheld 2-D games maintained stable sales with the support of a very loyal fanbase.  The problem as I see it though is stagnation.  Think about it.  SotN and OoE were released nearly 12 years apart --but the graphics and overall design are so very similar, that a mainstream gamer could barely tell the difference.  Konami could have raised the bar years ago by putting a 2-D game like the DXC on a popular home console like the PS2 --instead they let Castlevania's 2-D games languish on the portables while pushing mediocre 3-D games on the consoles...

We can agree on stagnation, which is why I can't agree on "the highest standards of 2-D gameplay, graphics, and design."
I'm completely ambivalent on 2D vs 3D. If it's good, I'll like it, if its not, I won't, but demanding 2D (i.e. Sonic Fans) got us Generations, which, while an excellent game, feels dated and old fashioned on the Act 1 levels. In fact, the area where the game really excels is all of the improvements they made in the Act 2 levels

The handheld games also thrived on a loyal fanbase of people willing to buy anything as long as it resembled SotN, and the real reason IGA could get away with releasing so many was BECAUSE of the cheap production values and the recycled content. Only with a low budget could the games turn a significant profit off of 300,000 sales.

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Have you read the Mission Statement lately?  I know it's not perfect, but it has been completely rewritten once and further tweaked half a dozen times.  The word "demand" has not appeared in the mission statement in over 5 months, and most of the other abrasive language has been significantly softened or removed.  Reading comments like this I wonder why I even bothered.  Either you're not paying any attention or there's just no pleasing you.

Oh, I've read it. It still sounds demanding.

You used the parallel of your kids earlier, and that's not applicable here. Here, Konami has the money. Konami has the power. If you want Konami to make you something big and fancy, you need to come from a positive direction, praising previous efforts and supporting Konami to make more, because frankly, 300,000 fans, many of which probably not nearly as adamant as OA, are not going to move mountains.

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There is a distinction that needs to be made here.  Rejecting LoS as a reboot doesn't necessarily equate to hating the game.  Although that is sometimes the case, you need to understand that some Akumajo fans, while appreciating LoS, also see it for the unique IP it is.  Now that the fans have had a chance to digest LoS, their continued loyalty to the Castlevania brand remains to be seen.  If I were David Cox I'd be paying *very* close attention...

Never said anyone HATED LoS, but OA is going beyond "a future LoS game needs more Castlevania elements" like many, include myself, have said about LoS.

No, in rejecting LoS and responding with "Remake CV:III plz" you're essentially rejecting anything LoS or Konami did right because the overall game doesn't fit into your idea of what a Castlevania game should be.

And the problem with that is that the sales completely disagree with you.

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Konami already has a wealth of sales data, so they already have a good idea how large the Castlevania fanbase actually is.  But for all of their numbers, they don't hear the voice of the fans --OA is an opportunity for the fans to speak out and tell Konami what we want.  Once Konami actually hears that voice and acknowledges our desires, then it's up to them to do their homework, and then decide if they are willing and able to meet those needs.

That's what LoS was...

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Unfortunately.  It's just a matter of time before Konami overmilks their cash-cow and realizes what a bad idea it was to put so many eggs in one basket.  Reselling the same games every 2 years will not take MGS or Konami to a good place.

I highly doubt Metal Gear solid is going anywhere, and Kojima productions releases more than enough new titles, and the re-released titles are all released either a number of years later or to consumer bases which never got the chance to play the games before.

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Marketing and competition are major factors as well.

...yes? Your point?

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The 25th Anniversary was a central platform prominently featured in the Mission Statement.  The Metal Gear Solid comparison was just a bullet point on a propaganda piece.  But honestly, as a Castlevania fan, what's not to be jealous of?

Jealousy doesn't win people over. You have to understand, OA should be much like a pitch, and when pitching, game developers don't go into a producer studios saying "Yo, your last games sucked ass, and the fans deserve better, so we're going to remake a really old game and market it to 300,000 people with a budget that should be aiming for multi-millions."
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 06, 2012, 01:53:29 PM
There is difference in how you state your demands.

One thing is to ask: "Why don't you (Konami), please, consider making a game that will be based on previous (good) 2D outings of the series? We have some stats to back up that it could be profitable project."

I agree Koanmi deserves to be treated with professional courtesy, but they also deserve honest feedback as well.  As for using statistical evidence to make a case, you're forgetting a few things...

First, Konami doesn't release all of the relevant data to the public.  Although retail sales are routinely published, DLC sales are not --so we have no way of knowing the sales for games like Rebirth or Harmony of Despair.  Furthermore, none of the dollar revenues or production costs are published either, so there's no way for us to compare the profit margins of any Castlevania games.  For example --we know that LoS has sold 1.06 Million copies, but we don't any have data on the revenues produced by those sales.  And since we also don't know the production costs, there's no way to produce any kind of cost/revenue analysis to measure profit margins.  These figures would be central to any serious statistical discussion.  I'd love to compare the figures for SotN, the GBA games, the DS games, DXC, Rebirth, and HD --but I just don't have access to the data.

Secondly, even if Konami published all of the relevant data --OA doesn't have the financing to hire professional market analysts, so any statistical arguments would be an amateur endeavor.

And finally, it's not the place of the consumer to make these kinds of statistical arguments to begin with.  It's the consumer's role to provide the demand, and the business' role to provide the product.  The challenge here is simply making the business aware of what product is desired.

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And another is to shout: "Hey, Konami, give us 2D Demon Castle Wars HD and remake of CV3 and forget about LOS, because WE WANT IT, DAMMIT!!!"
See the difference?

Certainly.  I'll concede the very first Mission Statement had some inappropriate, demanding, and abrasive language without any context whatsoever, but you've given zero credit for the rewrite or any other concessions that have already been made over these past 6 months.  This comment also misrepresents OA's official position on LoS, and completely ignores the live and let live endorsement of a multiversal approach, which I have overstated numerous times throughout this topic.

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As others already said, only demands, epsecially if they are stated quite forcefully, wouldn't be enough to kickstart anything. Only if you have some people at Konami that will back you up. But it's likely not the case.

You're right.  OA needs an outpouring of fan support to show Konami that our demands are viable, and worthy of further analysis.  And like I had mentioned to Flame, Legends 3 had the concrete advantage of a sympathetic insider, and now that IGA has been "retired" from Castlevania, we don't really have that kind of advantage... 
 

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Or were reached, but not ultimately interested at all.

No.  OA's exposure has come primarily from the CVD, Facebook, Youtube, and to a much lesser degree --Rely on Horror, the Castlevania Syndicate, and just a handful of other forums (most of them foreign).  I know you can't see the Facebook or Youtube analytics, but I can assure you that about 90% of the fans that have visited our page or viewed our videos originate from the CVD, Facebook, or Youtube.  That was why I specifically cited those particular figures.  It should also be noted, that the 4000 estimate precludes impact of lurkers, the overlap of multiple exposures, and the repeated viewings of the videos.

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You need something to unite fans. And demands, especially that specific is not the way to do it. Besides, do you seriously believe that even if Konami listen to your ply, they will make the game exactly like you see it in your brain? I doubt it. So there is no neccessity to demand something that specific from them.

Are you still talking about the Demon Castle War and CV3?  Because I've already made my case that the hardcore fans want those particular games...  Or are you still talking about the quality demands?  Things like a "serious investment" "2-D on HD console" "highest standards of gameplay, graphics, and design" etc...

Well this gets back to the point I just made about the negotiation strategy.

I see.  So you believe we’re asking too much of Konami.  Fair enough.

Quite frankly, it would be naive to believe that Konami will do everything that we’re asking for --even if we had thousands of fans behind our cause.  But the fact is that by boldly put our demands on the table, we’ve raised the expectation and applied pressure that otherwise would not exist.

I don’t know if you have children...  But if I tell my daughters to fold 6 loads of laundry before bed (knowing full well they usually do 2 or 3) they may strive for the 6, but only get 4 or 5 done loads folded.  Have they failed to meet my demands?  Yes, but they haven’t failed to improve --and improvement was the real expectation all along.  And who knows, maybe those girls would surprise me by working their tails off and getting the 6 loads folded after all --the door is certainly open for that.

My point to you is this.  The demands are a starting point for a negotiation.  Excellent results never come from lowballing the expectations.

And furthermore, demanding the mediocre will guarantee mediocre results.


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Loyality is such thing that it could easily go away.

Loyalty by definition doesn't easily go away, but things like unwanted change, dishonesty, and being taken for granted are all *very* real threats to the loyalty in any relationship --business or otherwise.

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Especially if you demand something tailored to your own taste.

Your personalizing.  And not giving any consideration to what your fellow fans want.

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There is difference. MegaMan was like that for the last decade, this series practically breathes this trope. Castlevania never embraced this idea, except for few games that were tossed out of the canon. In general I couldn't remember any big Konami franchise that had several subseries going on at the same time (CV, Contra, MGS, SH).

That doesn't mean it can't be done.

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On note: last big MGS project wasn't released twice. And Peace Walker was rereleased for the new platform, so it not like it was released twice on the same console.

I was specifically referring to the Snake Eater example I posted a couple days ago --perhaps you missed it...

Let’s consider the example of Snake Eater.  Metal Gear Solid 3 had its original release way back in 2004, Subsistence in 2006, the Essential Collection in 2008, the HD Collection in 2011, and now the 3DS version is due in the next couple months.  This kind of saturation almost harkens back to how greedily Capcom exploited Street Fighter II back in the 90’s --and we all know how that eventually ended...

I suppose I could cite Sons of Liberty as well, but no matter --Snake Eater makes the point.
 
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There is difference between activity that could result in something and activity that could result in nothing. As far as I can say OA is not something that could make "a something good". But making Konami thing that old CV dans are obsessive group that lives in the past - could be a result. Besides I personally against ressurection of the 2D metroidvanias any soon. There was too many of them that offered too much of the same. I don't want CV fall into the self-repetition yet again, not after series seemingly more or less climbed out of that puddle of mud and moved on.


OA never specifically endorsed the Metroidvania format.  Regardless, this comment (like so many others) clearly reveals a bias against OA's old-school ideals --and I'm sad to say there's just no reasoning with personal biases.

Correction; Mega Man is textbook example of how to do a timeline successfully.

You've got in Mega Man, a franchise who's story successfully spans centuries.

Classic ->100yr-> X ->100yr-> Zero ->200yr-> ZX ---->undisclosed amount, possibly thousands----> Legends

There is only 1 other universe, that being the Battle Network universe, which goes Battle Network ->200yr-> Star Force

And there is one alternate timeline, which is Rockman Online, which seems to run parallel to the Zero series.

Castlevania does a timeline good too, buuuut not AS good. the Mega Man world, and everything in it consistently evolves with the time that passes. Specifically the technology within the story.

You're making a fair point here, but the continuity connections tend to be somewhat loose --with Classic, X, and Zero probably being the tightest of the bunch --meanwhile Legends is really another story altogether...  Megaman Classic has about as much in common with Legends, as Akumajo Dracula has in common with Lords of Shadow.

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The problem with having IGA involved is that he tries to come up with gameplay before story or atmosphere or anything. Which affects things a bit. Especially when he tries to make sequels. I mean, look at what happened with PoR.

I just don't trust him to make a good Demon Castle War game. I feel his style of game making would mess it up. He would put too much time into trying to come up with some "unique" gameplay style, and not enough into the rest.

Demon Castle War would probably work best as a Classicvania.  I for one was really surprised how well IGA's team reworked Rondo for the DXC --I'd really love an encore.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on January 06, 2012, 02:04:36 PM
The problem with having IGA involved is that he tries to come up with gameplay before story or atmosphere or anything. Which affects things a bit. Especially when he tries to make sequels. I mean, look at what happened with PoR.

I just don't trust him to make a good Demon Castle War game. I feel his style of game making would mess it up. He would put too much time into trying to come up with some "unique" gameplay style, and not enough into the rest.

Somehow I doubt IGA is as at the forefront in the design in the more recent games as people seem to give him credit for (positive or negative). He hasn't been the director of a Castleroid since SotN, just the producer, which acts as more of an overseer, frontman (which is partly why he gets so much of the praise/blame) and financial organizer rather than someone who really gets into the nitty gritty of the gameplay design choices. Now ironically given your statement, he has been credited with writing for HoD, AoS, DoS, and PoR. Not OoE though, which accounts for the somewhat different tone of its story.

No, in rejecting LoS and responding with "Remake CV:III plz" you're essentially rejecting anything LoS or Konami did right because the overall game doesn't fit into your idea of what a Castlevania game should be.

And the problem with that is that the sales completely disagree with you.

I'm not so sure LoS sold quite as well as your tone there seems to indicate, at least given the sales numbers I've seen. It certainly sold better than the 2D games; that's expected given its genre (3D action), but that was also to be expected given its budget. The 2D games generally have a small budget, while LoS had a medium sized budget. Those result in very different sales levels needed to declare success or failure. By all the metrics I've seen both LoS and the 2D games have gotten past the "success" lines. What they haven't done is go insanely far beyond that to the point where they're making money hand over fist like some of the really well known and big name games out this gen.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Successor The Cruel on January 06, 2012, 02:56:29 PM
People should not act like they know for sure how Lords of Shadow sold unless they have reliable figures to back it up. There is a difference in how many copies are shipped to stores and how many are actually bought by consumers.

The completed listings on eBay, which I've found to be a decent measure of something's worth, tell me that Lords of Shadow can now be had at bargain bin prices (as low as $10, usually $15). For a game that was released a year and a few months ago, I'm not sure that is very promising. This generally means that there are more Lords of Shadow games out there than people want.

http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_nkw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_okw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_oexkw=&_adv=1&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=200&_fpos=Zip+code&_fsct=&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50 (http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_nkw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_okw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_oexkw=&_adv=1&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=200&_fpos=Zip+code&_fsct=&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50)

I mean, hell. Order of Ecclesia is commanding and selling for more respectable prices than that thing, and it was a $30 handheld.

http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_nkw=castlevania+order+of+ecclesia&_sacat=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&LH_Complete=1&_odkw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313 (http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_nkw=castlevania+order+of+ecclesia&_sacat=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&LH_Complete=1&_odkw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: crisis on January 06, 2012, 03:24:12 PM
I'm sure if I were to sell my Limited Edition Konamistyle Order of Ecclesia w/rare signed promo material, translucent Shanoa poster & specialized enhanced game cartridge, i would get at least $300.00 #ballin
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: C Belmont on January 06, 2012, 04:48:19 PM
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Konami already has a wealth of sales data, so they already have a good idea how large the Castlevania fanbase actually is.  But for all of their numbers, they don't hear the voice of the fans --OA is an opportunity for the fans to speak out and tell Konami what we want.  Once Konami actually hears that voice and acknowledges our desires, then it's up to them to do their homework, and then decide if they are willing and able to meet those needs.
That's what LoS was...

Hardly
LOS was aimed at drawing in new fans first and appealing to the current fanbase second, Cox practically said so himself.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: e105beta on January 06, 2012, 06:17:01 PM
I'm not so sure LoS sold quite as well as your tone there seems to indicate, at least given the sales numbers I've seen. It certainly sold better than the 2D games; that's expected given its genre (3D action), but that was also to be expected given its budget. The 2D games generally have a small budget, while LoS had a medium sized budget. Those result in very different sales levels needed to declare success or failure. By all the metrics I've seen both LoS and the 2D games have gotten past the "success" lines. What they haven't done is go insanely far beyond that to the point where they're making money hand over fist like some of the really well known and big name games out this gen.

1,000,000 sales is 1,000,000 sales. Each of those copies was money in the pocket for Konami.

People should not act like they know for sure how Lords of Shadow sold unless they have reliable figures to back it up. There is a difference in how many copies are shipped to stores and how many are actually bought by consumers.

The completed listings on eBay, which I've found to be a decent measure of something's worth, tell me that Lords of Shadow can now be had at bargain bin prices (as low as $10, usually $15). For a game that was released a year and a few months ago, I'm not sure that is very promising. This generally means that there are more Lords of Shadow games out there than people want.

http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_nkw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_okw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_oexkw=&_adv=1&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=200&_fpos=Zip+code&_fsct=&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50 (http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_nkw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_okw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_oexkw=&_adv=1&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=200&_fpos=Zip+code&_fsct=&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50)

I mean, hell. Order of Ecclesia is commanding and selling for more respectable prices than that thing, and it was a $30 handheld.

http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_nkw=castlevania+order+of+ecclesia&_sacat=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&LH_Complete=1&_odkw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313 (http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_nkw=castlevania+order+of+ecclesia&_sacat=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&LH_Complete=1&_odkw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313)

Well, combine the "at least 1,000,000 shipped" and the, despite its flaws, VGchartz sales numbers:
http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35060/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35060/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/)
http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/game/35059/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/game/35059/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/)

500,000 copies aren't going to be shipped to suit a 10,000 copy demand, so I think it's reasonable enough to assume that Lords of Shadow sold at least 900,000, which, yes, could leave 100,000 copies floating around with very little demand and thus justify the current price listings. Either way, Lords of Shadow didn't have close to a blockbuster budget (marketing can make up to 60% of a game's budget and LoS had little to none, the engine was developed in-house which saves plenty of money, etc.) and managed to sell, at the lowest estimate, more than twice as well as the handhelds, and made more than enough money for Konami to justify a bigger budgeted sequel.

That's what LoS was...

Hardly
LOS was aimed at drawing in new fans first and appealing to the current fanbase second, Cox practically said so himself.

Yes. Konami knew what Castlevania fans have been buying, knew it wasn't very profitable, then decided they weren't willing to continue on the current course and made Lords of Shadow. They decided they didn't want to cater to the "300,000" and made something new.

All OA is stating is that they want the handhelds or the classics, or something akin, only shinier. Konami not giving IGA big budgets was the decision not to do that back then.

Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: beingthehero on January 06, 2012, 06:39:39 PM
I really, really wouldn't trust VGChartz for anything, for better or for worse.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: e105beta on January 06, 2012, 07:00:57 PM
You know, I constantly hear people say that, but yet to hear why.

Sure it tends to overcut and undercut the mark by the occasional point or two, but it's accurate within reasonable expectations.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Neobelmont on January 07, 2012, 12:06:50 AM
You know, I constantly hear people say that, but yet to hear why.

Sure it tends to overcut and undercut the mark by the occasional point or two, but it's accurate within reasonable expectations.

Heck Los did better than Enslaved, Other M, Vanquished and I recall posting a long comment on that but I do not have any other source for sells also it would have done better if other bigger games did not come out at that time. Meanwhile it did not get a big budget like other actioners for commercials and stuff God of war, darksiders,dante's inferno, and bayonetta even with the lack of sales compared to them Los still did good. all of them broke 2 million sales at least at one point. Los is really a mouth to mouth kind of thing not only that it would of sold more if it did not cause so much chaos within the fanbase, but then again how much fanbase is there to make a difference. Meanwhile back to what I was saying this is the only way for me to get my information on sale's as well I have no other way what is the saying hater's going to hate or something right?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on January 07, 2012, 12:14:19 AM
1,000,000 sales is 1,000,000 sales. Each of those copies was money in the pocket for Konami.

People wouldn't last long in business if they only looked at sales and ignore costs. Both have to be considered to calculate profit and actually determine how well something did.

You know, I constantly hear people say that, but yet to hear why.

I don't know if it's true or not, but I have heard at least one explanation on other boards as to why. Supposedly in the past that they've accidentally posted sales numbers for games that were delayed a few weeks and not shipped on the week they were supposed to. Thus comes the criticism that they're "just making it up."

Sure it tends to overcut and undercut the mark by the occasional point or two, but it's accurate within reasonable expectations.

Are you using the sales numbers they post for games that are also released in the same period by NPD as a control?

Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: e105beta on January 07, 2012, 01:51:25 AM
People wouldn't last long in business if they only looked at sales and ignore costs. Both have to be considered to calculate profit and actually determine how well something did.

Of course, but between the sales, Konami's excitement at said sales, Cox's claimed budget, the confirmation of a sequel, and my knowledge of the industry, I'd be more than willing to argue it was successful.

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I don't know if it's true or not, but I have heard at least one explanation on other boards as to why. Supposedly in the past that they've accidentally posted sales numbers for games that were delayed a few weeks and not shipped on the week they were supposed to. Thus comes the criticism that they're "just making it up."

Ah, that WOULD be a problem. Still, I've never seen them be so far off that they need to be discredited outright.

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Are you using the sales numbers they post for games that are also released in the same period by NPD as a control?

NPD and any other source I can get my hands on, but unfortunately I cannot find any NPD numbers on Lords of Shadow.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on January 07, 2012, 05:11:21 AM
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I agree Koanmi deserves to be treated with professional courtesy, but they also deserve honest feedback as well.
Honest feedback does not equals only your opinion.

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For example --we know that LoS has sold 1.06 Million copies, but we don't any have data on the revenues produced by those sales.

I am sorry, but it's called "grasping on straws". No matter how you look at it LOS sold more than previous CV games in the past ten years and that what ultimately matters. And I believe it is exactly what Konami will be looking at, choosing direction for the next CV title.

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Secondly, even if Konami published all of the relevant data --OA doesn't have the financing to hire professional market analysts, so any statistical arguments would be an amateur endeavor.
Still, it would be better, than just demands.

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And finally, it's not the place of the consumer to make these kinds of statistical arguments to begin with.
Considering that you try to provide "demand" for something that is "remake a really old game and market it to 300,000 people with a budget that should be aiming for multi-millions", I doubt Konami will take it seriously. They want good sells, not realization of your desires. So, your demands need at least some sort of base to them. Not just "WE WANT IT!!".

Actually such project should have been started around the POR (or maybe even DOS) times, when the series began to go awry. Then it could have a chance to establish some connection with Konami, while IGA was at the helm, and probably more or less have some influence on their design decisions. As of now, this project comes a bit too late, when the major decisions regarding series future already have been made. In the essence OA fights with the consequences, not with the reason. And that's why I actually doubt it will have major influence (if any at all) on the Konami politics regarding the Castlevania.

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That was why I specifically cited those particular figures.  It should also be noted, that the 4000 estimate precludes impact of lurkers, the overlap of multiple exposures, and the repeated viewings of the videos.
And in the end it basically reduces number of people who aware about OA initiative.

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Are you still talking about the Demon Castle War and CV3?  Because I've already made my case that the hardcore fans want those particular games...  Or are you still talking about the quality demands?  Things like a "serious investment" "2-D on HD console" "highest standards of gameplay, graphics, and design" etc...
I meant overall thing. Like demanding certain games with certain conditions, that probably only you want to see.
You misundersatnd me. It's not about "demanding mediocre", it's about making demand less specific to your taste. Make them more general, not like "return IGA or ELSE".

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Let’s consider the example of Snake Eater.  Metal Gear Solid 3 had its original release way back in 2004, Subsistence in 2006, the Essential Collection in 2008, the HD Collection in 2011, and now the 3DS version is due in the next couple months.  This kind of saturation almost harkens back to how greedily Capcom exploited Street Fighter II back in the 90’s --and we all know how that eventually ended...
I wouldn't count handheld port as major rerelease. If the game released on the platform, where it was never released before, than it hardly could be conted as rerelease - its a simple port.

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Regardless, this comment (like so many others) clearly reveals a bias against OA's old-school ideals --and I'm sad to say there's just no reasoning with personal biases.
The same could be said about OA "movement". Wasn't it your personal bias against new approach to the CV that made you start this project?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: beingthehero on January 07, 2012, 05:25:34 AM
You know, I constantly hear people say that, but yet to hear why.

Sure it tends to overcut and undercut the mark by the occasional point or two, but it's accurate within reasonable expectations.

tends to overcut and undercut the mark by the occasional point or two


occasional point or two

point or two

ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Actually, they've been waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy off the mark more than a point or two multiple times in the past. That's why people say 'don't trust VGchartz. Most of their numbers are pure speculation btw
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: crisis on January 07, 2012, 08:13:18 AM
LoS was also packed in as a "special edition" PS3 bundle (not sure about the 360)

So whoever bought a PS3 around that time, also bought LoS, they didn't have a choice. Do those sales incidentally count for anything?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: e105beta on January 07, 2012, 10:48:04 AM
ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Actually, they've been waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy off the mark more than a point or two multiple times in the past. That's why people say 'don't trust VGchartz. Most of their numbers are pure speculation btw

Example?

LoS was also packed in as a "special edition" PS3 bundle (not sure about the 360)

So whoever bought a PS3 around that time, also bought LoS, they didn't have a choice. Do those sales incidentally count for anything?

It was in Japan, in which Lords of Shadow sold the worst.
And bundles don't work like that outside of release bundles, because there's plenty of other PS3s floating around, and in Japan, there's plenty of bundles to choose from.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 07, 2012, 11:24:54 AM
We can agree on stagnation, which is why I can't agree on "the highest standards of 2-D gameplay, graphics, and design."

I'm not sure if I understand you here.  If you agree Castlevania had become stagnant, why would you disagree with raising these basic standards?  Or do you feel like 2-D itself was stagnant?

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I'm completely ambivalent on 2D vs 3D. If it's good, I'll like it, if its not, I won't, but demanding 2D (i.e. Sonic Fans) got us Generations, which, while an excellent game, feels dated and old fashioned on the Act 1 levels. In fact, the area where the game really excels is all of the improvements they made in the Act 2 levels

It looks like we agree on quality being more important than 2-D vs 3-D --although I still believe 2-D is the superior artform for Castlevania.  And yes Sonic Generations is a conceptual throwback for updating some old stages, but the execution of the 2-D gameplay was absolutely marvelous!  The real challenge with these kinds of games is to keep it fresh and innovative without using nostalgic elements as a constant crutch to carry the game.

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The handheld games also thrived on a loyal fanbase of people willing to buy anything as long as it resembled SotN, and the real reason IGA could get away with releasing so many was BECAUSE of the cheap production values and the recycled content. Only with a low budget could the games turn a significant profit off of 300,000 sales.

This begs the question.  How much are Castlevania fans willing to pay for higher standards of quality?  And what new audience could be reached with a higher quality product?

Let's consider this simplified, hypothetical scenario.

Suppose a DS Castlevania game sold 300,000 copies for about $30.00 each, producing 9 million dollars in total sales revenue.  And (just for example) let us also suppose the production costs amount to a grand total of 3 million dollars.  This comes to 6 million dollars worth of profits with a profit margin of about 66%

Now...

If the fans are willing to pay $50.00 for a higher quality console game, Konami could hypothetically increase their investment (production costs) from 3 million to 5 million dollars, sell to the same 300,000 fans, and increase the sales revenue from 9 million to 15 million dollars.  Total profits would increase from 6 million to 10 million dollars while maintaining a 66% profit margin.

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Oh, I've read it. It still sounds demanding.

Like you, I suppose it is blunt.  But it's disingenuous to suggest that it's over-the top or hasn't been improved since the founding --and I take issue with that.  Why is it so hard to give credit where credit is due?

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You used the parallel of your kids earlier, and that's not applicable here. Here, Konami has the money. Konami has the power. If you want Konami to make you something big and fancy, you need to come from a positive direction, praising previous efforts and supporting Konami to make more, because frankly, 300,000 fans, many of which probably not nearly as adamant as OA, are not going to move mountains.

The example I gave with the kids and the laundry was specifically about the relationship between high-pressure demands and realistic expectations --nothing whatsoever to do with who has the money or the power.  Although that is a legitimate consumer vs business debate, we don't need to go there.

Also, if we agree Castlevania had grown stagnant for over 10 years, and the sales remained consistently above 300,000 --how can we not agree that those sales represent a loyal, hardcore fanbase that's willing pay up for a higher quality product? *presuming of course that system ownership is not an issue*

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Never said anyone HATED LoS, but OA is going beyond "a future LoS game needs more Castlevania elements" like many, include myself, have said about LoS.

No, in rejecting LoS and responding with "Remake CV:III plz" you're essentially rejecting anything LoS or Konami did right because the overall game doesn't fit into your idea of what a Castlevania game should be.

Like the Mission Statement said...

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...Although we accept Lords of Shadow as a fine game on its own merits, we believe the writers took far too many liberties and ultimately disrespected Castlevania's core Akumajo mythology. Therefore, we reject the game as a reboot, and encourage Konami to reposition it as a separate universe that can coexist with a continuing line of Akumajo Dracula games...

Let LoS series go its own way and tell its own story, but not over Akumajo Dracula's grave.  I really don't understand this --why should a multiverse be such a divisive idea?  It really is the best of both worlds for everyone involved.

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And the problem with that is that the sales completely disagree with you.

Not neccessarily...

Like I've pointed out, the sales alone don't always tell the whole story --there is a wealth of other data measured in dollars and percentages that we are not privy to.  For example, I think it would be very interesting to compare Harmony of Despair's profit margin % to LoS' profit margin %. And the compare the DXC and the DS games for good measure...  But alas, I have not the data...

Moreover, the Successor had a very good point about resale values being a fair and legitimate measure of a game's reputation and success.  Like I've said before, Castlevania fans are a very loyal bunch, and I'm sure most of them gave LoS the benefit of the doubt...  But now we're left to ponder --how many of those traditional fans will be lining up to buy the sequel?

The logistical problem is that even if there is an exodus of Castlevania fans, there may still be an influx of God of War consumers to fill the void.  And Konami *none the wiser* will count the sales and call it a success --completely ignorant of any loyal fans they may have alienated...

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That's what LoS was...

Lords of Shadow had absolutely nothing to do with what the fans wanted.  Cox himself has repeatedly dismissed the Castlevania fanbase as "irrelevant" and needing to "forget what they know about Castlevania" etc...  LoS is about greed.  Konami saw a game like God of War sweeping the market, and the wanted a piece of the action.  Regardless of *how* it happened, LoS hijacked the Castlevania brand to sell a product that is remarkably foreign to many of the fans.  What more need be said?

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I highly doubt Metal Gear solid is going anywhere, and Kojima productions releases more than enough new titles, and the re-released titles are all released either a number of years later or to consumer bases which never got the chance to play the games before.

Never said MGS is going away --I was simply pointing out how Konami was over-milking the brand, much like Capcom did to Street Fighter 2 back in the 90s.  Every good investor knows that you need to diversify your portfolio to mitigate risk.  Investing so much into the MGS brand may have short term rewards --but when you reach the point of releasing the same game every couple years oversaturation becomes a legitimate threat.  It's not good business.  If Konami bets the farm on MG Rising or MGS5 and it suddenly doesn't sell like it should, Konami stands to take some serious damage.

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...yes? Your point?

You had made a legitimate point about how high quality games sometimes fail to become "blockbuster hits" based on market appeal...

 First, I was was pointing out how marketing the game is very important, because consumers generally have trouble finding high quality products they don't even know about.

And secondly, is the factor of competition.  People only have so much money.  If a consumer has to choose between a familiar brand he loves, and an allegedly high quality product he's never tried --which way do you suppose he's going to go?

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Jealousy doesn't win people over. You have to understand, OA should be much like a pitch, and when pitching, game developers don't go into a producer studios saying "Yo, your last games sucked ass, and the fans deserve better, so we're going to remake a really old game and market it to 300,000 people with a budget that should be aiming for multi-millions."

OA is still at the "reach out to the fans" stage of development.  There is no serious effort to engage Konami on a professional level at this time --and as many critics have pointed out, we don't have the numbers for them to take us seriously yet anyway.  All of the propaganda that exists, is for the purpose of reaching out to like minded fans --it is not a conscious effort to engage Konami.  Of course Konami is free to observe what we're doing and make their own judgments --but that won't necessarily determine the success or failure of the effort in the longer run.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on January 07, 2012, 02:33:03 PM
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Let LoS series go its own way and tell its own story, but not over Akumajo Dracula's grave.  I really don't understand this --why should a multiverse be such a divisive idea?  It really is the best of both worlds for everyone involved.
I don't divide Castlevania for "Castlevania" and "Akumajou Dracula".
SOTN is Castlevania, but so is LOS. It's different games, set in different worlds, but part of the same series with the same name.

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Like I've pointed out, the sales alone don't always tell the whole story --there is a wealth of other data measured in dollars and percentages that we are not privy to.  For example, I think it would be very interesting to compare Harmony of Despair's profit margin % to LoS' profit margin %. And the compare the DXC and the DS games for good measure...  But alas, I have not the data...
It doesn't matter in the end. We know that LOS sequel is produced and HD was canned with ridicilous 8-bit rehash. It speaks for itself.

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The logistical problem is that even if there is an exodus of Castlevania fans, there may still be an influx of God of War consumers to fill the void.  And Konami *none the wiser* will count the sales and call it a success --completely ignorant of any loyal fans they may have alienated...
And they wouldn't care about them as long as the game will bring them money. And honestly they not that obligated to do so.

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LoS is about greed.  Konami saw a game like God of War sweeping the market, and the wanted a piece of the action.  Regardless of *how* it happened, LoS hijacked the Castlevania brand to sell a product that is remarkably foreign to many of the fans.  What more need be said?
And you tell that you are not biased against LOS after that? LOL.

LOS is about trying to get profit from the exhausted series, applying to it generous amount of paint and cement of modern action game philosophy. Exactly what should be done with the franchise that literally stucked in the past and abysmal copypasting of itself. Reinvention by modernization and radical change of approach. In many ways it is experimental and alienating for some, but exactly that allows to see the potential, where previously people saw nothing.
Besides fans already were disappointed with direction of the DOS, POR and some were disappointed with OOE. Even if LOS was never created any next Castlevania most likely completely shattered fanbase for the group who wanted more "metroidvanias" and for the people who wanted something else (anything else). LOS just made it in differen way, but, ironically, still in the same vein.
I hope that LOS's sequel will change this situation and LOS subseries will be hailed as modern 3D view of what Castlevania should be in general.

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Let LoS series go its own way and tell its own story, but not over Akumajo Dracula's grave.  I really don't understand this --why should a multiverse be such a divisive idea?  It really is the best of both worlds for everyone involved.
I don't divide Castlevania for "Castlevania" and "Akumajou Dracula".
SOTN is Castlevania, but so is LOS. It's different games, set in different worlds, but part of the same series with the same name.

Quote
Like I've pointed out, the sales alone don't always tell the whole story --there is a wealth of other data measured in dollars and percentages that we are not privy to.  For example, I think it would be very interesting to compare Harmony of Despair's profit margin % to LoS' profit margin %. And the compare the DXC and the DS games for good measure...  But alas, I have not the data...
It doesn't matter in the end. We know that LOS sequel is produced and HD was canned with ridicilous 8-bit rehash. It speaks for itself.

Quote
The logistical problem is that even if there is an exodus of Castlevania fans, there may still be an influx of God of War consumers to fill the void.  And Konami *none the wiser* will count the sales and call it a success --completely ignorant of any loyal fans they may have alienated...
And they wouldn't care about them as long as the game will bring them money. And honestly they not that obligated to do so.

Quote
LoS is about greed.  Konami saw a game like God of War sweeping the market, and the wanted a piece of the action.  Regardless of *how* it happened, LoS hijacked the Castlevania brand to sell a product that is remarkably foreign to many of the fans.  What more need be said?
And you tell that you are not biased against LOS after that? LOL.

LOS is about trying to get profit from the exhausted series, applying to it generous amount of paint and cement of modern action game philosophy. Exactly what should be done with the franchise that literally stucked in the past and abysmal copypasting of itself. Reinvention by modernization and radical change of approach. In many ways it is experimental and alienating for some, but exactly that allows to see the potential, where previously people saw nothing.
Besides fans already were disappointed with direction of the DOS, POR and some were disappointed with OOE. Even if LOS was never created any next Castlevania most likely completely shattered fanbase for the group who wanted more "metroidvanias" and for the people who wanted something else (anything else). LOS just made it in differen way, but, ironically, still in the same vein.
I hope that LOS's sequel will change this situation and LOS subseries will be hailed as modern 3D view of what Castlevania should be in general.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: DarkPrinceAlucard on January 07, 2012, 02:48:30 PM

 It's different games, set in different worlds,

wait what?

Please tell me by "different worlds" you mean "different gampelay".

Because last I checked symphony is part of the original canon and LOS is not.

Or maybe I have read it wrong......
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: TheouAegis on January 07, 2012, 04:54:17 PM
This is the problem with sales logistics. You see it all the time in the movie industry.

Pirates Of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides was a domestic FLOP, but internationally it was a success, grossing over a billion dollars in sales. That could be compared in a way to LoS - domestically (within the CV fanbase) it may be a flop, but if it snags a large number of GoW fans, enough to cover the costs, it's a success.

Tangled was another domestic flop but international success. Golden Compass was nearly a flop on both fronts, but all combined it was profitable. That's another problem with this. If LoS is a flop with the CV fanbase and a flop with the GoW fanbase, but all totaled it is profitable, then it's still profitable in Konami's eyes.

Then we look at films like Paranormal Activity, supposedly made on a budget of $15k and making $300k total (domestic and internationally). $300k gross sales would be a flop in Hollywood, but for the guys that made Paranormal Activity, that's a huge profit. If Konami gets trapped in the Hollywood mindset, it could fail to see insanely profitable ventures to fruition simply because they might compare end profits to different tiers. If you're going to earmark a game with a $500k budget, you damn well better make $1m in sales. But if you earmark a game with a $20k budget, $100k in sales is 250% more profitable for them. But then, if that $500k game grosses $580k in sales, how is that any different than the $20k game making $100k? The point is, it was a riskier venture for a $500k movie. Also, the $20k game could have probably sold for half the price of the $500k game, meaning that $100k sales translates into an even higher profit. But high volume sales isn't for everyone. (My boss has one of the most expensive stores cuz she marks everything at 50% markup, even shit she buys from Dollar Tree.)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: e105beta on January 07, 2012, 06:35:06 PM
Tangled was a flop?

Now I'm sad. That movie was adorable.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 07, 2012, 06:51:17 PM
Honest feedback does not equals only your opinion.

Agreed.  That’s why the Mission Statement was carefully tailored to appeal to hardcore Castlevania fans based on CVD polling, popular topics, common complaints, and a couple of “dream project” games that have been widely speculated, discussed, and coveted by the fans for many, many years...  Why is it such a stretch for you to believe that some of your fellow fans may not share your opinions that old-school Castlevanias should be replaced by Lords of Shadow?  Naturally, you would hawk LoS’ sales in response, so let me take my point a step further and point out that the sales only represent the mass market, not necessarily the loyalty of the Castlevania fanbase.  David Cox himself had repeatedly said that mass market appeal was the LoS’ primary objective all along...

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I am sorry, but it's called "grasping on straws". No matter how you look at it LOS sold more than previous CV games in the past ten years and that what ultimately matters. And I believe it is exactly what Konami will be looking at, choosing direction for the next CV title.

I’ve already acknowledged LoS’ sales, Konami’s satisfaction, and the real likelihood of a sequel.  But you need to understand that while businesses do care about their sales, their main concern is the bottom line --it’s all about PROFIT.  And at 1 million copies sold, we have only the vaguest idea how profitable LoS was compared to other games in the seires.  Without the hard data on revenue and production costs, the real profits are unknowable both in terms of dollars and percentages.  Therefore we are not in a position to have any intelligent debate about the merits of any particular games’ performance --especially if you want to gloat and make comparisons.  Any argument to that end would be *highly* speculative.

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Considering that you try to provide "demand" for something that is "remake a really old game and market it to 300,000 people with a budget that should be aiming for multi-millions", I doubt Konami will take it seriously. They want good sells, not realization of your desires. So, your demands need at least some sort of base to them. Not just "WE WANT IT!!".

OA has never specifically requested “multi-millions” to be budgeted for these games.  We’re not pretending to know the relevant production costs, because Konami really doesn’t even publish that kind of data.  What we’re requesting is a “serious investment” which is wide open to *professional* interpretation.  And just for the sake of argument, let’s suppose the market is locked at 300,000 hardcore fans.  Konami should respond by asking “how much money are these fans willing to pay for a “serious investment?”  And the more I think about it, the more I’m realizing that’s a question that will eventually need to be answered....

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Actually such project should have been started around the POR (or maybe even DOS) times, when the series began to go awry. Then it could have a chance to establish some connection with Konami, while IGA was at the helm, and probably more or less have some influence on their design decisions. As of now, this project comes a bit too late, when the major decisions regarding series future already have been made. In the essence OA fights with the consequences, not with the reason. And that's why I actually doubt it will have major influence (if any at all) on the Konami politics regarding the Castlevania.

You know what, I think we can agree on this.  We really deserve some blame for sitting on our asses for too long.  Now the stakes are higher and the challenges are severe --not to mention there’s no sympathetic insider to lend a hand...

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And in the end it basically reduces number of people who aware about OA initiative.

The best we can do is to work on raising awareness for the cause, and then let the fans decide if it’s worth supporting.  If OA grows with exposure, we’ll eventually get the numbers we need to make our case to Konami.  But if we stagnate in spite of the exposure, the members will lose faith, and we’ll eventually fade into the sunset.  Right now it’s really too early to say, one way or the other.
 
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I meant overall thing. Like demanding certain games with certain conditions, that probably only you want to see.

You’re personalizing again.  There are more opinions on this forum and within this fanbase than yours and mine.  Have you asked anyone else what they want?

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You misundersatnd me. It's not about "demanding mediocre", it's about making demand less specific to your taste. Make them more general, not like "return IGA or ELSE".

There's certainly a broader appeal by generalizing...  But if we’re not specific about demanding a certain level of quality, there’s a danger that Konami would think we can be pacified by inferior or mediocre products.

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The same could be said about OA "movement". Wasn't it your personal bias against new approach to the CV that made you start this project?


No.  Operation: Akumajo was founded on the CVD back in July in reaction to Konami’s imminent failure to celebrate the 25th Anniversary.  Most of the active members here already know that, and for those that don't it's also explained in the Mission Statement.

Also, I know you gave me more to respond to by addressing my points to e105beta...  I'll respond to those points when I find a little more time.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Neobelmont on January 07, 2012, 08:10:36 PM
Ok what I am about to post might been seen as odd heck even dumb but I don't care. Just forget the matter of a 2-D or even 3-D game and which to give priority to. Instead of all this bickering on what is cv and not just concretrate on one point the quality and time taken care into the series. Why so over complicated? Why this and that and the other just make it a point just to put quality no thinking outside boxes or no failure in 3D or something that might just proper time I think that would be the most reasonable thing to do not ask for game a or remake b just move foward but with the time and investment just a simple request damn now my body feels all odd I do not know why I put this it feels redundant but there is just one thing we all should do. Just join together and not be divided and stuff join for a common cause that great quality I think that is something we all can agree on(yeah I'am done now, yet for some reason I just cannot explain what I want to type down all that well).
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on January 07, 2012, 10:53:27 PM
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OA has never specifically requested “multi-millions” to be budgeted for these games. We’re not pretending to know the relevant production costs, because Konami really doesn’t even publish that kind of data.  What we’re requesting is a “serious investment”
 
Yet you ask for remastered HD 2D games, which generally, if as you are saying, you want to be of good quality- will cost a pretty penny. All games these days cost a ton of money to make. And buy as well. So if you are asking for HD high quality 2D games, well first, lets think of on what platform they would be on. They would most likely currently be the 3DS, since that is the newest handheld next gen. it could be a downloadable on the Wii, but with the Wii-U in the works, I dont think they would try and release the game for a system that will die down soon enough. not to mention a downloadable game will not garner as much attention, nor exposure. (ill get back to that in a bit) But then theres the matter of what exactly you want with "HD" "High Quality". Do you want super high quality 3D/2.5D models? or Hand Drawn animated types like Blazblue and Bloodrayne Betrayal? Either of those could easily cost a lot of money. Every decision of the game you have to take into consideration when you say you want Konami to make you a game.

And then Konami before even THINKING about lifting a finger has to estimate how many units they might sell, or, if that data isnt available, set a standard, a bar, a sales number. So they make the game and sell it. if it does not meet their financial standards, then konami lost money from that move. They used more than they regained, and will never cave to fan wants again.

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I really don't understand this --why should a multiverse be such a divisive idea?

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Let LoS series go its own way and tell its own story,
Because some of us prefer our multiverses to be neat and tidy. just rejecting LoS and saying "let it go it's own way, we will stick to what we know and like", isnt the approach many of us want. We like out traditional vanias, and we liked aspects and parts of LoS, and want to include it into our tastes by changing things we felt did not work or should not work.

the majority of us dont distinguish between "Akumajo Dracula" and "Castlevania" because its the same damn thing. you are just taking Cox's words way too literally. And it's not like the "Castlevania" title hasnt gone to Japan before either.

why should we just abandon LoS? I for one, would rather work with it so future entries can be enjoyable to both sides of the argument. The hardcore fans of the franchise, and the outside crowd that the fresh different approach is meant to bring in.

Also, I simply just dont really agree with your idea of bringing back Akumajo Dracula. or the "soul" of the series. You insist upon 2D. and while 2D is nice and all, I for one, would much rather Konami perfect their 3D formula. Seriously, it took them an outside team to make a high quality well made 3Dvania? (say what you will about the story, the gameplay and everything about that is great, and fun.)

before I forget, back to what I said about downloadable games.

You insist on 2D, when these days, no matter how high quality they may be, they are 1 of 2 things. Either a handheld, or a downloadable. And the higher the quality and production values, the more likely it is to be a downloadable console title. but the problem with those is, they do not get any attention outside of those who actively seek them. AKA they dont go onto store shelves where they are easier to market and/or/ buy

Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 08, 2012, 01:09:21 AM
I don't divide Castlevania for "Castlevania" and "Akumajou Dracula".
SOTN is Castlevania, but so is LOS. It's different games, set in different worlds, but part of the same series with the same name.

I have always believed Castlevania = Akumajo Dracula.  It was my opinion that Los is not an Akumajo Dracula game, and therefore LoS is not Castlevania.

Enter David Cox to explain.  November 11, 2011 on Twitter

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Stanislav Plakhov: Mr.Cox can I ask you a question? Why CLoS wasn't released in Japan as a part of Akumajo Dracula series. Just curious.

David Cox: Because it's not part of the Akumajo Dracula series.

Stanislav Plakhov: Simple. But isn't it a part of Castlevania series which is kind of... you know, the same thing (to me at least).

David Cox: It's not the same thing. Castlevania: Lords of Shadow has nothing to do with Akumajo series. It's completely separate.” It's a whole new approach, a new brand that uses certain DNA from previous CV games from the series but it isn't part of it. its set in a separate universe. It's doesn't follow any other CV game. Make sense now?

Stanislav Plakhov: All right. Thanks. I know all that. Not new to the series. Playing it since the very first game. Thanks for answering anyway.

Just curious --how you would interpret this conversation?

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It doesn't matter in the end. We know that LOS sequel is produced and HD was canned with ridicilous 8-bit rehash. It speaks for itself.

Again, this is completely speculative scenario, but...  How do we know Harmony of Despair didn’t have a massive profit margin?  We don’t know the DLC sales, nor do we know the revenues.  Although we don’t know the production cost, we can see quite clearly that it may be the most cheaply produced game in the whole series --undeniably peanuts compares to LoS’s budget.  The only thing we really know for certain is that Konami thought it would be worthwhile to port over to the PSN, and that’s about it...  Don’t mistake this as me defending HD, because I’m not --but you are making a mistake writing this game off without knowing the facts of how it affected Konami’s bottom line.

I've suspected both Rebirth and HD may be trial balloons to help Konami decide what to do with the Akumajo series.  They may be far more profitable than any of us realize...

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And they wouldn't care about them as long as the game will bring them money.

My point exactly.

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And honestly they not that obligated to do so.

Agreed, but throwing loyal fans under the bus is kinda shitty.

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And you tell that you are not biased against LOS after that? LOL.

Am I biased in the sense that LoS is not a legitimate Akumajo Dracula reboot?  ABSOLUTELY!

Am I biased against LoS as high-quality hardcore gamer’s game?  ABSOLUTELY NOT!

I happen to enjoy both Twix and Snickers candy bars.  But if someone slips a Twix in a Snickers wrapper, I have the intellectual honesty to stand up and say “this Twix is NOT a Snickers bar!”

And on the subject of bias, you should expect than I am biased in favor of Operation: Akumajo --I am after all, the founder.  I haven’t made any false pretenses of objectivity here, so I make no apologies for espousing these views.

Quote
LOS is about trying to get profit from the exhausted series, applying to it generous amount of paint and cement of modern action game philosophy. Exactly what should be done with the franchise that literally stucked in the past and abysmal copypasting of itself. Reinvention by modernization and radical change of approach. In many ways it is experimental and alienating for some, but exactly that allows to see the potential, where previously people saw nothing.

Besides fans already were disappointed with direction of the DOS, POR and some were disappointed with OOE. Even if LOS was never created any next Castlevania most likely completely shattered fanbase for the group who wanted more "metroidvanias" and for the people who wanted something else (anything else). LOS just made it in differen way, but, ironically, still in the same vein.

I hope that LOS's sequel will change this situation and LOS subseries will be hailed as modern 3D view of what Castlevania should be in general.

Quality problems don’t necessarily mean you need to reinvent the wheel.  There is such a thing as going too far, and that’s where the discord comes from.  As for the sequel addressing fans’ concerns and complaints, that’s an interesting possibility.  It would be nice to think David Cox is considering critical feedback, but he seems rather ambivalent toward the fans and indignant toward critics...  I seem to remember him getting upset over IGN’s LoS review in particular...
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 08, 2012, 02:35:05 AM
Ok what I am about to post might been seen as odd heck even dumb but I don't care. Just forget the matter of a 2-D or even 3-D game and which to give priority to. Instead of all this bickering on what is cv and not just concretrate on one point the quality and time taken care into the series. Why so over complicated? Why this and that and the other just make it a point just to put quality no thinking outside boxes or no failure in 3D or something that might just proper time I think that would be the most reasonable thing to do not ask for game a or remake b just move foward but with the time and investment just a simple request damn now my body feels all odd I do not know why I put this it feels redundant but there is just one thing we all should do. Just join together and not be divided and stuff join for a common cause that great quality I think that is something we all can agree on(yeah I'am done now, yet for some reason I just cannot explain what I want to type down all that well).

I understand what you're saying here, but we really can't deny that LoS had already delivered high quality and secured the future of the 3-D games.  The only real quality problems that exist right now are on the 2-D side, which also face the possibility of utter extinction.

Yet you ask for remastered HD 2D games, which generally, if as you are saying, you want to be of good quality- will cost a pretty penny. All games these days cost a ton of money to make. And buy as well. So if you are asking for HD high quality 2D games, well first, lets think of on what platform they would be on. They would most likely currently be the 3DS, since that is the newest handheld next gen. it could be a downloadable on the Wii, but with the Wii-U in the works, I dont think they would try and release the game for a system that will die down soon enough. not to mention a downloadable game will not garner as much attention, nor exposure. (ill get back to that in a bit) But then theres the matter of what exactly you want with "HD" "High Quality". Do you want super high quality 3D/2.5D models? or Hand Drawn animated types like Blazblue and Bloodrayne Betrayal? Either of those could easily cost a lot of money. Every decision of the game you have to take into consideration when you say you want Konami to make you a game.

OA endorsed HD home consoles for 2 reasons.  First, because HD consoles have more potential in terms of quality.  And secondly, to help the 2-D games escape the portable rut.  Hard copy vs digistrib really shouldn't matter, but you may have a legitimate point about exposure --OA hasn't taken a position either way.

The artform of 2.5 models vs Hi-res Sprites was left open to Konami's interpretation.  Although I personally enjoyed the 2.5 D style of the DXC --I know of some fans would actually prefer the hi-res sprites.  Either way, Castlevania really needs to get beyond recycling these 18 year old Rondo graphics.

And yes, a "serious investment" is meant to imply larger budgets.  But since neither you nor I know how anything about real production costs, we're better off not even speculating of the specifics --let the professionals who have access to that kind of information make their own judgments about what constitutes a serious investment, relative to the high-quality standards that have been requested.

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And then Konami before even THINKING about lifting a finger has to estimate how many units they might sell, or, if that data isnt available, set a standard, a bar, a sales number. So they make the game and sell it. if it does not meet their financial standards, then konami lost money from that move. They used more than they regained, and will never cave to fan wants again.

Considering the last 4 portable games sold well over 300,000 copies, that would seem to be a reasonable benchmark.  But the key thing they really need to know is "How much are those fans willing to pay to offset the production cost and generate profits?"  That would be a determining factor in determining the size of a "serious investment"

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Because some of us prefer our multiverses to be neat and tidy. just rejecting LoS and saying "let it go it's own way, we will stick to what we know and like", isnt the approach many of us want. We like out traditional vanias, and we liked aspects and parts of LoS, and want to include it into our tastes by changing things we felt did not work or should not work.

LoS2 may possibly well have some sort of redemption, but that really depends on Cox opening himself up to fan feedback.  I could be wrong, but I'm guessing he's caught up in an echo chamber of positive reviews and praise from the new fans that his game has attracted.

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the majority of us dont distinguish between "Akumajo Dracula" and "Castlevania" because its the same damn thing. you are just taking Cox's words way too literally. And it's not like the "Castlevania" title hasnt gone to Japan before either.

Cox specifically noted Akumajo and Castlevania are not the same thing.  Here's the quote again.

Quote
Stanislav Plakhov: Mr.Cox can I ask you a question? Why CLoS wasn't released in Japan as a part of Akumajo Dracula series. Just curious.

David Cox: Because it's not part of the Akumajo Dracula series.

Stanislav Plakhov: Simple. But isn't it a part of Castlevania series which is kind of... you know, the same thing (to me at least).

David Cox: It's not the same thing. Castlevania: Lords of Shadow has nothing to do with Akumajo series. It's completely separate.” It's a whole new approach, a new brand that uses certain DNA from previous CV games from the series but it isn't part of it. its set in a separate universe. It's doesn't follow any other CV game. Make sense now?

Stanislav Plakhov: All right. Thanks. I know all that. Not new to the series. Playing it since the very first game. Thanks for answering anyway.

You and I can disagree with his views, but Cox is the man in charge right now.  :-S

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why should we just abandon LoS? I for one, would rather work with it so future entries can be enjoyable to both sides of the argument. The hardcore fans of the franchise, and the outside crowd that the fresh different approach is meant to bring in.

I never suggested abandoning LoS.  The lesson here was to live and let live, and make everyone happy with a multiversal approach.  If LoS2 is has the ambition to be a redemption, that's just fine --either way it IS Konami's vision for 3-D Castlevania.  All the more reason for OA to focus on the 2-D side of the equation...

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Also, I simply just dont really agree with your idea of bringing back Akumajo Dracula. or the "soul" of the series. You insist upon 2D. and while 2D is nice and all, I for one, would much rather Konami perfect their 3D formula. Seriously, it took them an outside team to make a high quality well made 3Dvania? (say what you will about the story, the gameplay and everything about that is great, and fun.)

The gameplay and format are really issues of personal taste.  I enjoyed the gameplay much more than the format actually --the combat cross was THE best feature of the game IMO.  And again.  Regardless of my personal taste, OA's primary concern is the mythology, and secondly westernizing of the brand.

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before I forget, back to what I said about downloadable games.

You insist on 2D, when these days, no matter how high quality they may be, they are 1 of 2 things. Either a handheld, or a downloadable. And the higher the quality and production values, the more likely it is to be a downloadable console title. but the problem with those is, they do not get any attention outside of those who actively seek them. AKA they dont go onto store shelves where they are easier to market and/or/ buy

Perhaps...  But we do have a few shining exceptions that have been very successful.  I'm very anxious to see what Sonic Generation's sale look like a year from now....
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on January 08, 2012, 03:11:09 AM
Of course, but between the sales, Konami's excitement at said sales, Cox's claimed budget, the confirmation of a sequel, and my knowledge of the industry, I'd be more than willing to argue it was successful.

I agreed that it was successful. I mentioned in the first post that by all the metrics I've seen both LoS and the 2D games have gotten past the "success" lines. The question is more about the degrees of success, which is somewhat hard to gauge beyond a murky guess without info that isn't really out there in the public domain.

As far as another issue brought up in the last couple posts, it doesn't really seem like Konami has the number of 2D artists needed to do HD sprites. They'd have to outsource or Vanillaware or something. Supposedly there's a big shortage of well trained 2D sprite artists as it is and very few who have ventured into HD spriting. It probably wouldn't be that reasonable for them profit-wise to go for HD sprites when it's difficult for them to make a new SD sprite for each enemy for every new game (although I don't really have as much of a problem with sprite reuse as other people seem to since there's only so many ways to design a skeleton, minotaur or a medusa head; I have more of a problem with copy-paste level design). They'd need to actually have a decent amount of spriters before they could even think of making a new HD sprite for each enemy in a new game and acquiring that many might not be within the budget possibilities on the 2D CVs.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Neobelmont on January 08, 2012, 03:33:49 AM
Something just hit me in the head right now. Now why is it that CV has never sold really well LoS 1million now let's see a high quality (2d/3d) game right on a console no less. Well here is the perfect answer. Target audience Cv is not for eveyone do not know why but it's just not so connect with the ones that could connect like for example there is a new cv coming out right? well let's see it has that demonic flair right well bam put it on ktla5 on supernatural and sppeaking of supernatural what about adult swim great place for some new fans or what about that show true blood hell why does not konami connect the dots it  just seems so simple do major marketing during october, sales would boost like crazy like in the pool business it is at it's peak during the summer cv october supernatural/horror shows hell put a crap load of commercials onto channels like sci-fi and chiller and bam something will happen just something.

Now that alone would boost sales and fans like ourselfs would get it so bam! Now there is only one problem when it comes to 2d game on a disc on a current gen system the fact that some people think 2d is dead  ( MARIO AND SONIC WILL ALLWAYS SELL. A PLATNIUM TURD WITH THEIR NAMES ON IT WILL SELL DON'T KNOW WHY BUT THEY JUST DO). Now that is out of my system take a look at current 2d disc games otomedius did not sell all well,record of argest(cannot remeber how to spell it) not great either, and 3d dot game heros that looked like time and effort was put into it and even that did not sell a crap load heck the game even made a point that 2d is sort of looked down upon.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: C Belmont on January 08, 2012, 04:23:49 AM
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As far as another issue brought up in the last couple posts, it doesn't really seem like Konami has the number of 2D artists needed to do HD sprites. They'd have to outsource or Vanillaware or something. Supposedly there's a big shortage of well trained 2D sprite artists as it is and very few who have ventured into HD spriting. It probably wouldn't be that reasonable for them profit-wise to go for HD sprites when it's difficult for them to make a new SD sprite for each enemy for every new game (although I don't really have as much of a problem with sprite reuse as other people seem to since there's only so many ways to design a skeleton, minotaur or a medusa head; I have more of a problem with copy-paste level design). They'd need to actually have a decent amount of spriters before they could even think of making a new HD sprite for each enemy in a new game and acquiring that many might not be within the budget possibilities on the 2D CVs

Konami could always outsource the work to a professional animation studio themselves, I believe that is what was done with Warioland: The Shake dimension they went to Production I.G for their character animation and another company that specialised in backgrounds for the rest of their art. But trying to create HD pixel art (like what SNK is doing with KOF) would be just insane and a little pointless really when it can be done so well without spending months pushing individual pixels around.

A Castlevania game with animation done by Madhouse (the studio responsible for Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust) would probably look pretty sweet.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Successor The Cruel on January 08, 2012, 05:49:25 AM
It's funny how absurd a full 2-D game for sale on a home console sounds to some people now. If a very stunning 2-D game with excellent gameplay was made, which had all the other bases down, such as music, atmosphere, and so forth, that was also well advertised, I bet it would be a hit. Of course, that probably sounds silly to many people, because, "No one will buy a 2-D console game these days."

The people who are real visionaries are the ones who do things no one else is doing, and make them work. Way back in the day, many of the classical composers broke "the rules" of music at the time and did their own thing. Nowadays, they're revered as legends of the highest order, and the new rules have been written around them. They did stuff no one thought or dared to do at the time, and they did it well.

It would be great if Konami made a 2-D Castlevania on a home console, but cast aside that "hardcore retro video game player" stuff that's often associated with 2-D games now, and made it approachable for everyone without compromising it to be stupid or simple. This is something that many developers who make 2-D games do not do.

When people make 2-D games while pretending that it's freaking 1991 and making it seem as though you retrieved the game from a time capsule, it will, of course, only appeal to people who like retro games. 2-D needs to become separate from the retro deal that's it's associated with and become approachable to everyone to become recognized as a respectable medium in which to make serious games again. It can do that, but people within the industry need to seriously back it and stop developing 2-D games that try so hard to appeal to people's nostalgia. They need to treat it not as though it's an old way to make games, but just that it's another way to make games that is in no way inferior to 3-D.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on January 08, 2012, 08:21:21 AM
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Why is it such a stretch for you to believe that some of your fellow fans may not share your opinions that old-school Castlevanias should be replaced by Lords of Shadow?  Naturally, you would hawk LoS’ sales in response, so let me take my point a step further and point out that the sales only represent the mass market, not necessarily the loyalty of the Castlevania fanbase.  David Cox himself had repeatedly said that mass market appeal was the LoS’ primary objective all along...
No need to change topic.
I know that my sentiment is not shared by everyone. However, what you call "a honest feedback" as of now looks like your own opinion about series. And most likely not every single "old school fan" share your own thoughts.
As for mass market appeal - it is excatly why big corporation create games. And, yes, sells are natural showcase of the game quality and appeal. Previous CV games wasn't thta succesful, so its natural that they will be replaced by something more interesting to the people.

The same actually happened in the CV early history. CV2 tried to go into different direction rather than the first part. It wasn't that succesful and CV3 returned to CV1 formula with few twists, practically removing almost every innovation CV2 brought. Much to my disappointment, I must add.

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But you need to understand that while businesses do care about their sales, their main concern is the bottom line --it’s all about PROFIT.
And it's wrong in the big businees because?
I understand that you're hurt, by Konami abandoment of the old formula(s) and 2D direction. However you need to approach this maturely and understand that in the world of big money (and video game industry is about big money, like it or not), PROFIT means much more than hurt feeling of old school fans. And no matter how you try to hide that fact, LOS sold more and this is deciding factor in the Konami politics. As it always had been.

Besides, technical advancement creates neccesity for the games (and developers) to adopt to the new rules and powers. It's only natural that games will change, sometimes radically. I bet some of the fans of TEXT RPG were enraged, when they favorite interactive books were replaced with kiddish primitive graphics. And can you imagine majority of the people playing those games today? I don't think so. The same thing happening with 2D games. There are niche market, living on the life support provided by enthusiasts, DLC and portable consoles. And even portable console nowadays grow powerful enough that many of the games step into 3D. It's only question of time, when 2D will completely disappear as a commercialy relevant product. It's evolution, and as much you can disagree with it, hate it, it couldn't be stopped. Old things will be replaced or lose they value. Its inevitable and, when we talk about big money title, it's very unlikely that big corp. decide to spent they time and efforts on something oldfashioned, that will take time and resources, but will not guarantee any positive outcome.

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What we’re requesting is a “serious investment” which is wide open to *professional* interpretation.
Essentially requesting the same "big budget" title, but with roundabout words.

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And just for the sake of argument, let’s suppose the market is locked at 300,000 hardcore fans.  Konami should respond by asking “how much money are these fans willing to pay for a “serious investment?”  And the more I think about it, the more I’m realizing that’s a question that will eventually need to be answered....
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I've suspected both Rebirth and HD may be trial balloons to help Konami decide what to do with the Akumajo series.  They may be far more profitable than any of us realize...
In another words you think that Konami obligated to create game for the old fans, just to know how well it would sell?
I think they already did it with Harmony of Despair. The fact that they had nothing to present on the CV 25th birthday and lack of any information about future 2D titles is kind of telling in that situation.

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You know what, I think we can agree on this.  We really deserve some blame for sitting on our asses for too long.  Now the stakes are higher and the challenges are severe --not to mention there’s no sympathetic insider to lend a hand...
Indeed. Fans should have started some movement at the times, when CV went into the odd directions, starting with DOS. The time was lost, partially because it were "metroidvania" games and some people still were "charmed" by SOTN to eat anything that resembled that game. As of now, I think its too late too turn this locomotive to the other railroad track.

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But if we’re not specific about demanding a certain level of quality, there’s a danger that Konami would think we can be pacified by inferior or mediocre products.
Once again: Quality is not limited to your desires and vision.

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Just curious --how you would interpret this conversation?
That Castlevania: Lords of Shadow is a different kind of Castlevania. That simple. If Cox called it just "Lords of Shadow" we had something to talk about. As he put it - LOS is still Castlevania, no matter how some people want to think that its not.

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Am I biased in the sense that LoS is not a legitimate Akumajo Dracula reboot?  ABSOLUTELY!
I much prefer to see LOS as something that separate from old CV canon.
Partially because I HATE reboots of the existing storylines or "retelling" of the same events with new twists, that set in the old universe (MK9).

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Quality problems don’t necessarily mean you need to reinvent the wheel.  There is such a thing as going too far, and that’s where the discord comes from.
While I agree with this, I also think that "metroidvania" formula was milked for all its worth and it was time to change "foundation" onto something else. Even good qality "metroidvania" would be a "metroidvania" - copy of the SOTN. That's not what I personally want to see from the series. At least not now.

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Hard copy vs digistrib really shouldn't matter,
Actually it should. Digi.restribution only is a sigh that the project is pretty small scaled.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Malus793 on January 08, 2012, 09:59:19 AM
That Castlevania: Lords of Shadow is a different kind of Castlevania. That simple. If Cox called it just "Lords of Shadow" we had something to talk about. As he put it - LOS is still Castlevania, no matter how some people want to think that its not.

Hands down, that's the most liberal interpretation of a statement I've ever read in my whole entire life--and one with which I would totally disagree, if only because I'm taking what Cox said at face value and am reading absolutely nothing into his words as far as what he "really meant" or what I would like him to mean.

Indeed, Cox's words imply that he believes "Castlevania" to be a separate series from "Akumajo Dracula", which is a relatively novel idea considering the only differences between the two in the past have been title (likely due to 1980s censorship differences between regions) and maybe the occasional nude or overly demonic-looking sprite.  Sure, one could argue that even IGA attempted to differentiate between "Castlevania" and "Akumajo Dracula" with Lament of Innocence, Harmony of Dissonance, and Aria of Sorrow--but later entries into the Akumajo Dracula series by IGA suggest that, again, the difference was ultimately to be superficial at best (related only to title and nothing more). 

No, Cox has struck new and, as far as I'm concerned, unnecessary (and unnecessarily vague) territory with how he views Castlevania vs. Akumajo Dracula, and really shows that he has sort of a fratboyish understanding of what made the two different in the first place (i.e. nearly nothing).

But, if Cox's view is to be taken seriously (seriously enough to be shared by, say, the higher-ups at Konami), then that just goes to prove that LoS is not an entry into Akumajo Dracula, and is therefore part of a different series--and thus there's little reason to NOT continue Akumajo Dracula as a series simply because LoS (which by Cox's own admission is not connected) exists.  Hence, IMO, Operation: Akumajo's existence is completely validated by Cox's own words.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
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Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 08, 2012, 12:41:58 PM
It's funny how absurd a full 2-D game for sale on a home console sounds to some people now. If a very stunning 2-D game with excellent gameplay was made, which had all the other bases down, such as music, atmosphere, and so forth, that was also well advertised, I bet it would be a hit. Of course, that probably sounds silly to many people, because, "No one will buy a 2-D console game these days."

The people who are real visionaries are the ones who do things no one else is doing, and make them work. Way back in the day, many of the classical composers broke "the rules" of music at the time and did their own thing. Nowadays, they're revered as legends of the highest order, and the new rules have been written around them. They did stuff no one thought or dared to do at the time, and they did it well.

It would be great if Konami made a 2-D Castlevania on a home console, but cast aside that "hardcore retro video game player" stuff that's often associated with 2-D games now, and made it approachable for everyone without compromising it to be stupid or simple. This is something that many developers who make 2-D games do not do.

When people make 2-D games while pretending that it's freaking 1991 and making it seem as though you retrieved the game from a time capsule, it will, of course, only appeal to people who like retro games. 2-D needs to become separate from the retro deal that's it's associated with and become approachable to everyone to become recognized as a respectable medium in which to make serious games again. It can do that, but people within the industry need to seriously back it and stop developing 2-D games that try so hard to appeal to people's nostalgia. They need to treat it not as though it's an old way to make games, but just that it's another way to make games that is in no way inferior to 3-D.

Bravo.  Well said.   :D
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: e105beta on January 08, 2012, 12:50:28 PM
I agreed that it was successful. I mentioned in the first post that by all the metrics I've seen both LoS and the 2D games have gotten past the "success" lines. The question is more about the degrees of success, which is somewhat hard to gauge beyond a murky guess without info that isn't really out there in the public domain.

As far as another issue brought up in the last couple posts, it doesn't really seem like Konami has the number of 2D artists needed to do HD sprites. They'd have to outsource or Vanillaware or something. Supposedly there's a big shortage of well trained 2D sprite artists as it is and very few who have ventured into HD spriting. It probably wouldn't be that reasonable for them profit-wise to go for HD sprites when it's difficult for them to make a new SD sprite for each enemy for every new game (although I don't really have as much of a problem with sprite reuse as other people seem to since there's only so many ways to design a skeleton, minotaur or a medusa head; I have more of a problem with copy-paste level design). They'd need to actually have a decent amount of spriters before they could even think of making a new HD sprite for each enemy in a new game and acquiring that many might not be within the budget possibilities on the 2D CVs.

Agreed.

And to what you're saying, I would bet most of the HD sprite artists have been gobbled up by the fighting game companies. Seeing as they're the ones in the greatest demand for them. I can't even imagine the fan backlash if SNK released a 3D model based King of Fighters game.

It's funny how absurd a full 2-D game for sale on a home console sounds to some people now. If a very stunning 2-D game with excellent gameplay was made, which had all the other bases down, such as music, atmosphere, and so forth, that was also well advertised, I bet it would be a hit. Of course, that probably sounds silly to many people, because, "No one will buy a 2-D console game these days."

The people who are real visionaries are the ones who do things no one else is doing, and make them work. Way back in the day, many of the classical composers broke "the rules" of music at the time and did their own thing. Nowadays, they're revered as legends of the highest order, and the new rules have been written around them. They did stuff no one thought or dared to do at the time, and they did it well.

It would be great if Konami made a 2-D Castlevania on a home console, but cast aside that "hardcore retro video game player" stuff that's often associated with 2-D games now, and made it approachable for everyone without compromising it to be stupid or simple. This is something that many developers who make 2-D games do not do.

When people make 2-D games while pretending that it's freaking 1991 and making it seem as though you retrieved the game from a time capsule, it will, of course, only appeal to people who like retro games. 2-D needs to become separate from the retro deal that's it's associated with and become approachable to everyone to become recognized as a respectable medium in which to make serious games again. It can do that, but people within the industry need to seriously back it and stop developing 2-D games that try so hard to appeal to people's nostalgia. They need to treat it not as though it's an old way to make games, but just that it's another way to make games that is in no way inferior to 3-D.

Theoretically, if any game had the full-package it would sell well, but that ignores the stigma of a 2D game. For one, from a design standpoint, you can do more in a 3D game. Two, where as a 3D game can look like and be marketed as some sort of cinematic experience in a new quasi-world, a 2D game, lacking that third dimension, will psychologically always look like and play like a game, and while this might be engaging to some people (i.e. hardcore gamers) that base is everyday shrinking rapidly in relative comparison to gamers as a whole. And that matters, because games are all about money, and the market has tended to gravitate towards cheap, simple looking 2D games while leaving the high budget games to the 3D devs.

But I don't disagree with you in the slightest. 2D developers have definitely gotten this idea of "2D games are old-fashioned", thus why I applaud companies like Vanillaware who acknowledge 2D limitations try and artistically adapt their games to the medium, or Retro who revived the Donkey Kong series by augmenting the gameplay with technology that wasn't possible back in the early 90s.

However I don't think it's just the developer's fault. From what I've noticed, after the influx of 2D series switching to 3D games in the late 90s, all a lot of fans want is to sit there and play the games they grew up with, whether they're dated or not. I won't bother touching the mess that is Sonic fans, but significantly large portions of fans from numerous other fanbases explode in protest when developers try and expand their audience, either with arguments of "too casual!" or "too different!" whether those claims are warranted at all. This ultimately drove the whole retro thing, and we started getting games like Megaman 9 and 10, or Sonic the Hedgehog 4, which good or bad, did absolutely nothing for gaming as a whole.

Thus why I can't support OA. I don't want Castlevania III HD or Castlevania Demon Castle War of the Night. I want a new game.

Hands down, that's the most liberal interpretation of a statement I've ever read in my whole entire life--and one with which I would totally disagree, if only because I'm taking what Cox said at face value and am reading absolutely nothing into his words as far as what he "really meant" or what I would like him to mean.

Indeed, Cox's words imply that he believes "Castlevania" to be a separate series from "Akumajo Dracula", which is a relatively novel idea considering the only differences between the two in the past have been title (likely due to 1980s censorship differences between regions) and maybe the occasional nude or overly demonic-looking sprite.  Sure, one could argue that even IGA attempted to differentiate between "Castlevania" and "Akumajo Dracula" with Lament of Innocence, Harmony of Dissonance, and Aria of Sorrow--but later entries into the Akumajo Dracula series by IGA suggest that, again, the difference was ultimately to be superficial at best (related only to title and nothing more). 

No, Cox has struck new and, as far as I'm concerned, unnecessary (and unnecessarily vague) territory with how he views Castlevania vs. Akumajo Dracula, and really shows that he has sort of a fratboyish understanding of what made the two different in the first place (i.e. nearly nothing).

But, if Cox's view is to be taken seriously (seriously enough to be shared by, say, the higher-ups at Konami), then that just goes to prove that LoS is not an entry into Akumajo Dracula, and is therefore part of a different series--and thus there's little reason to NOT continue Akumajo Dracula as a series simply because LoS (which by Cox's own admission is not connected) exists.  Hence, IMO, Operation: Akumajo's existence is completely validated by Cox's own words.

I agree with you in that I'm pretty sure the word Castlevania is an 1980's attempt at getting Americans to play a Japanese game by making it sound less Japanese.

Which is why I have to ask: didn't Cox only say Lords of Shadow wasn't an Akumajo game AFTER Operation Akumajo made the distinction? Because by his own words he sees it as a Castlevania game, and if his ultimate goal is to differentiate Akumajo Dracula and Castlevania, then he'd be putting Lords of Shadow in the same bin as Harmony of Dissonance, Aria of Sorrow, and Lament of Innocence.

It's a title, and everyone needs to get over it.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 08, 2012, 12:51:31 PM

No need to change topic.
I know that my sentiment is not shared by everyone. However, what you call "a honest feedback" as of now looks like your own opinion about series. And most likely not every single "old school fan" share your own thoughts.

Looking back on this topic, it occurred to me that you may not know of my reputation for polling this forum.  I’ve always been interested in asking my fellow fans for their opinions and have polled a variety of topics over the last few years.  I can guarantee you that nobody has setup more polls on this forum than I have.  With that said, the CVD may not be the most accurate place to take the pulse of the Castlevania fanbase, but it is better than making the kind of arrogant presumptions you seem to think I’m guilty of making...  And it’s certainly more than Konami itself has ever done to engage the fans.

And no, it’s not realistic for 100% of the fans to reach an agreement, however it is possible to build a consensus and set an agenda around that consensus.  Like I’ve already explained OA’s Mission Statement was largely tailored to address popular topics and issues where there was a consensus of opinion.  The problem was that the Mission Statement tried addressing too many of these issues at once.  Someone opened a poll quite a few months ago now, asking “why haven’t you joined Operation: Akumajo?” and the majority of those that hadn’t joined responded that “they don’t agree with the mission 100%”  It may well be possible to broaden the base by trimming the mission, but I’d like to see the results of the next viral campaign before making any cuts or radical changes .

Unless of course, a visionary partner came aboard to take some of the workload of my shoulders..  lol

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As for mass market appeal - it is excatly why big corporation create games. And, yes, sells are natural showcase of the game quality and appeal. Previous CV games wasn't thta succesful, so its natural that they will be replaced by something more interesting to the people.

The same actually happened in the CV early history. CV2 tried to go into different direction rather than the first part. It wasn't that succesful and CV3 returned to CV1 formula with few twists, practically removing almost every innovation CV2 brought. Much to my disappointment, I must add.

CV2 was simply a different format, the gameplay was actually very faithful to the original.  Or at least moreso than the other oddball sequels of the time --like Super Mario 2, or Zelda 2...

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And it's wrong in the big businees because?

Nothing wrong with profit.  I’m self employed and I LOVE PROFIT!  :-D

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I understand that you're hurt, by Konami abandoment of the old formula(s) and 2D direction. However you need to approach this maturely and understand that in the world of big money (and video game industry is about big money, like it or not), PROFIT means much more than hurt feeling of old school fans. And no matter how you try to hide that fact, LOS sold more and this is deciding factor in the Konami politics. As it always had been.

Where did you get this idea that I don’t like profit?  I was simply pointing out that Konami will measure LoS’ success in terms of the profits that are generated (dollars and percent) --moreso than the sales.  And also since you and I are not privy to the relevant data (production cost and revenues) the real profits are unknowable to us.  Therefore, debating LoS’ relative success compared to any other Castlevania game would be a *highly* speculative discussion.

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Besides, technical advancement creates neccesity for the games (and developers) to adopt to the new rules and powers. It's only natural that games will change, sometimes radically. I bet some of the fans of TEXT RPG were enraged, when they favorite interactive books were replaced with kiddish primitive graphics. And can you imagine majority of the people playing those games today? I don't think so.  The same thing happening with 2D games. There are niche market, living on the life support provided by enthusiasts, DLC and portable consoles. And even portable console nowadays grow powerful enough that many of the games step into 3D. It's only question of time, when 2D will completely disappear as a commercialy relevant product. It's evolution, and as much you can disagree with it, hate it, it couldn't be stopped. Old things will be replaced or lose they value. Its inevitable and, when we talk about big money title, it's very unlikely that big corp. decide to spent they time and efforts on something oldfashioned, that will take time and resources, but will not guarantee any positive outcome.

You obviously have a strong point of view on this matter.  I don’t want to take this topic in pointless circles, as the merits of the 2-D artform were thoroughly debated several pages go, but I will say this.

We didn’t stop drawing because we could sculpt.  We didn’t stop painting because we could snap photos.  We still have Broadway stage productions, even though we have big budget Hollywood films playing at the cinema.  We didn’t retire symphony orchestras, just because we had rock and roll.  And we didn’t stop going for a walk just because we can drive everywhere.

There IS a market for 2-D.  If what you believe is true, there is no way *NO WAY* a 2-D Mario game could possibly outsell a flagship 3-D Mario game *much less two 3-D flagship Mario games combined* on the 3rd generation of 3-D home consoles.  I just don’t see how you can possibly rationalize that position, and I don’t understand why you can’t see the potential for Castlevania to capitalize on that example.  24 Million copies sold is a MONUMENTAL ACHIEVEMENT in this industry by any reasonable measure.  This kind of willful blindness is honestly beyond me.

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Essentially requesting the same "big budget" title, but with roundabout words.

“Big budget” is a relative term.  Relative to the system.  Relative to the developer.  Relative to the genre.  Etc...  Perhaps 3-D games have higher production costs than 2-D games.  Perhaps these 2.5-D models have higher production costs than high res sprites.  The fact of the matter is we don’t know because we don’t have access to that kind of data.

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In another words you think that Konami obligated to create game for the old fans, just to know how well it would sell?

No.  I’m suggesting that Rebirth and HD may have already tested the market to see how much interest exists in the Akumajo series.  Konami may want to study the sales, the revenues, the costs, the profits, and the margins to help determine what they should be doing next.

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The fact that they had nothing to present on the CV 25th birthday and lack of any information about future 2D titles is kind of telling in that situation.

My cynical side thinks that Konami’s avoiding the past to hunker down and sell the reboot .  But who knows, maybe they’re just really callous.

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Once again: Quality is not limited to your desires and vision.

No it isn’t.  Quality is a consensus issue.

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While I agree with this, I also think that "metroidvania" formula was milked for all its worth and it was time to change "foundation" onto something else. Even good qality "metroidvania" would be a "metroidvania" - copy of the SOTN. That's not what I personally want to see from the series. At least not now.

Putting out a new game every couple years certainly didn’t help matters.  Saturation may have also been a problem appealing to a wider market, but I still think quality was a far bigger factor than the format.

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Actually it should. Digi.restribution only is a sigh that the project is pretty small scaled.

I am a huge fan of digistrib!  I’d love to see the entire retail sector (Best Buy/Gamestop/etc) kicked out of the market, so I can buy the games I want without any middleman markup.  Not to mention having a huge collection of disc media eventually leads to unwanted clutter...

Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on January 08, 2012, 04:03:24 PM

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I could totally dig a Castlevania that plays like Betrayal. (And looks as pretty as it too) Will never happen though.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: TheouAegis on January 09, 2012, 06:20:41 PM
Anyone else here play(ed) the PC game Trickster Online? It was an MMORPG in 2D (hell, you could even hack the sprite files fairly easily). Simplistic graphics. Enemies themselves had only a handful of frames of animation. And it made Ntreev hundreds of thousands of dollars, even when they gave away cash points freely to players on numerous occasions (my cash item box was nearly full from stuff i bought with the free cash). And like I said, IT WAS ENTIRELY IN 2D.  It had SNES-quality graphics (not dissing on the SNES, mind you) but was still fun for the most part (until they nerfed drilling).

Granted, the PC isn't the same as a console, but that has nothing to do with the hardware -- many console gamers view PCs with disdain and likewise many PC gamers view consoles with disdain. I finally bought a PS2 recently just so I could play Front Mission 5, but most console games I would just download and play via emulator. Hell, you can play N64 games in 3D even without a 3DS! (Not shitting you, Mario 64 in 3D is pretty fun.) You couldn't do that on a real N64 prior to modern 3D TVs, but I was playing Mario 64 in 3D four years ago on my PC.

But that's beside the point. Make 2D games with some sort of 3D aspect, either 2.5D or Paper Mario style, and it might be ok. But anyway, my buddy and I are both saving up for Shinobi 3DS. Sure, it's on a handheld, but it's a classic 2D(ish) platformer, which is what it should have always been.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Neobelmont on January 10, 2012, 06:08:24 PM
I love my sidescrollers.
Me too....
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Malus793 on January 10, 2012, 08:14:43 PM
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I love my sidescrollers.

Me, three.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on January 11, 2012, 12:17:07 PM
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With that said, the CVD may not be the most accurate place to take the pulse of the Castlevania fanbase, but it is better than making the kind of arrogant presumptions you seem to think I’m guilty of making...
If anything, I believe, CVD is one of the balanced CV communities I ever encountered. Others were very one-sided (fans of Classic CV only / rabid haters of everything IGA ever done awkwardly  save for SOTN and big fans of CV Legends and Sonia; fans of IGAvanias only / semi-rabid haters of everything that is not IGAvania acting like they are higher than commoners who couldn't appreciate true beauty of those games).

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And it’s certainly more than Konami itself has ever done to engage the fans.
Now, that's arrogant. =)

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It may well be possible to broaden the base by trimming the mission, but I’d like to see the results of the next viral campaign before making any cuts or radical changes .
It's better to change some stuff on the way, rather than wait for the results, when it would be to late to change anything.

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CV2 was simply a different format, the gameplay was actually very faithful to the original.

Still it was a different approach, that was axed in favor of more "traditional one" after gamers reaction. And I think Super Mario 2 is a bad example - it wasn't even Mario game to begin with.

Though there is opinion that is supposed to be Mario game from the begining and then changed to see if formula worked or something, but its to convoluted to take it seriously.

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Where did you get this idea that I don’t like profit?
It's not what I meant actually.
I meant more along the lines that you kind of don't understand significance of PROFIT in the modern video game business. You saying "give us big budget title with created by rather expensive (and old fashioned technology) for fans". But in order to big a big budget project this game should appeal to more people than fans only. I doubt that there are big projects that live only because of fans. Well, maybe except for Mario, but Mario is covered practically every single genre and in the end he is too has appeal to everyone, not only old fans of the franchise.

To put it simple - game could be big, if it would:
a) revolutionize genre and / or be extremely well crafted (Portal comes to mind);
b) have PR power (but it's not guarantee that the game will be any good);
c) have appeal to gamers in general, not only fans (simple way);

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There IS a market for 2-D.
I never said that there is not market for 2D games.
I said that big 2D commercial projects soon will be thing of the past. In general 2D will never die since it would live through small scale very cheap projects of independent studios and fan developers (Mugen, Beats of Rage projects).
And once again - Mario is a Mario. He and "Nintendo magic" could sell anything. But there is only one Nintendo and tonnes of the developers who haven't their approach and creativity.

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“Big budget” is a relative term.  Relative to the system.  Relative to the developer.  Relative to the genre.
 
Looks like relative attempt to not admit what you have said in the past.

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My cynical side thinks that Konami’s avoiding the past to hunker down and sell the reboot .  But who knows, maybe they’re just really callous.

Actually it is not exactly controversial to what I said.
More like those two reasons could be related to each other.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on January 11, 2012, 12:59:53 PM
And once again - Mario is a Mario. He and "Nintendo magic" could sell anything. But there is only one Nintendo and tonnes of the developers who haven't their approach and creativity.

I think his point is that 2D Mario outsells 3D Mario ("Nintendo magic" is equally at play for both styles, both being Nintendo-made), meaning in at least some paradigms, 2D is more financially viable. I wouldn't really think some kind of special Nintendo creativity would factor into 2D Mario selling better than 3D Mario either, since Mario Galaxy has generally seen more creativity than NSMB and NSMBWii.

Of course there are some extenuating issues that make this issue something CV probably couldn't really take advantage of: 3D Mario is a 3D platformer, and those are innately more awkward to play than 2D platformers, so they already have that working against them, while 3D CVs can minimize platforming elements if they have to; and 2D Mario has a nostalgic element for a decent-sized portion of the gaming public who played the older games on NES/SNES, while CV reached a much smaller audience; Mario is a household name, CV's niche.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 11, 2012, 08:58:35 PM
If anything, I believe, CVD is one of the balanced CV communities I ever encountered. Others were very one-sided (fans of Classic CV only / rabid haters of everything IGA ever done awkwardly  save for SOTN and big fans of CV Legends and Sonia; fans of IGAvanias only / semi-rabid haters of everything that is not IGAvania acting like they are higher than commoners who couldn't appreciate true beauty of those games).

The CVD does have a healthy variety of opinion, but only the hardest of the hardcore really call this place home.

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Now, that's arrogant. =)

Touche, sir.

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It's better to change some stuff on the way, rather than wait for the results, when it would be to late to change anything.

As I’ve explained, some changes have already been made.  Right now our top priority is to sharpen the focus on the Demon Castle War for the next viral campaign.
 
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It's not what I meant actually.
I meant more along the lines that you kind of don't understand significance of PROFIT in the modern video game business. You saying "give us big budget title with created by rather expensive (and old fashioned technology) for fans". But in order to big a big budget project this game should appeal to more people than fans only. I doubt that there are big projects that live only because of fans. Well, maybe except for Mario, but Mario is covered practically every single genre and in the end he is too has appeal to everyone, not only old fans of the franchise.

To put it simple - game could be big, if it would:
a) revolutionize genre and / or be extremely well crafted (Portal comes to mind);
b) have PR power (but it's not guarantee that the game will be any good);
have appeal to gamers in general, not only fans (simple way);

Castlevania should be somewhat appealing to anyone that enjoys gothic atmosphere and action-oriented gameplay.  But after years of stagnation, Konami has only recently decided to make a serious investment in 3-D Castlevania.  Now LoS has succeeded in reaching a market that had passed over the brand for over 10 years.  This begs the question --  Why wouldn’t a serious investment in 2-D Castlevania yield similar results?

Surely Konami knows that 2-D Castlevania has a loyal, hardcore fanbase over 300,000 strong --and if indeed that fanbase is willing to pay for higher quality, say $20.00 more than they paid for the DS games --then logically, Konami may be able to invest an additional few million dollars at extremely low risk.  Speculative?  Yes it is.  Mainly because I don't know the original production costs or profit margins of the DS games.  But it's also interesting to note how the DXC outsold each of the DS games.  It would be a very interesting study to examine all of the data on those games for a more thorough analysis...

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I said that big 2D commercial projects soon will be thing of the past.

That’s what the industry “experts” have been saying for over 15 years --and still we have 2-D on home consoles selling by the millions!

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In general 2D will never die since it would live through small scale very cheap projects of independent studios and fan developers (Mugen, Beats of Rage projects).

Sadly, it’s the big companies like Konami, that can afford to “gamble” on 2-D, but seem to have the least ambition and confidence in themselves to do so...

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But there is only one Nintendo and tonnes of the developers who haven't their approach and creativity.

And this too is a sad thing...
 
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Looks like relative attempt to not admit what you have said in the past.

?   Explain.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on January 12, 2012, 12:19:34 PM
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The CVD does have a healthy variety of opinion, but only the hardest of the hardcore really call this place home.
Sounds like a political propaganda.

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That’s what the industry “experts” have been saying for over 15 years --and still we have 2-D on home consoles selling by the millions!

1) I don't think there are many of them.
2) 2D games will no disappear no matter, but their commercial viability will decrease.
3) Experts always hype new technology beyond any reasonable manner. I bet in days of 3DO, "experts" said that FMV games are the future...and how this ended. =)

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Sadly, it’s the big companies like Konami, that can afford to “gamble” on 2-D, but seem to have the least ambition and confidence in themselves to do so...
Not really. Even for the biggest company inadequate risks and gambling could have very undesirable consequences.

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This begs the question --  Why wouldn’t a serious investment in 2-D Castlevania yield similar results?
Because Konami lose to much time creating copypasta-filled games.

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?   Explain.
You said that basically you want the game with big budget. Than you tried to say that you didn't mean it. Then you again said that you want game with big budget, but in another words. Finally you said that "big budget is relative term...". Essentially you jumped back and forth with big budget thing.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 12, 2012, 05:50:27 PM
Sounds like a political propaganda.

How so?  Do you have an opposing view of the CVD?

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Not really. Even for the biggest company inadequate risks and gambling could have very undesirable consequences.

Risk is part of any business.  There was a time when it was "do or die" for the game industry.  Risk was not optional.  Quality was not optional.  I'm sad to say, it may take another market crash to shake this industry out of its complacency.

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Because Konami lose to much time creating copypasta-filled games.

If they have the money (and the time) why wouldn't this problem be fixed?

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You said that basically you want the game with big budget. Than you tried to say that you didn't mean it. Then you again said that you want game with big budget, but in another words. Finally you said that "big budget is relative term...". Essentially you jumped back and forth with big budget thing.

Let's take a moment to define "serious investment" as best I can without real data to work with.

Asking for a "serious investment" is meant to imply that past investments were timid and detrimental to quality.  Therefore, the development budget should DEFINITELY be the largest of any 2-D Castlevania to date.  With that said, any increase should be substantial enough to noticeably improve quality, but not so excessive or gluttonous to pose an unreasonable risk  --as your interpretations have often implied.

For example, OA is not expecting a 90 million dollar investment.  Considering the 2-D Castlevania fanbase is only 300,000 strong --Konami would need to sell an additional 1.5 million copies at a wholesale price of $50 (retail around $60) just to break even.  In fact a 20% profit would require 2.16 million sales.  Expecting Konami to improve 2-D Castlevania's sales over 500% is beyond irrational.

Just for fun, let's indulge in some more speculation...  Let's suppose Konami expected to sell 900,000 copies of a high quality 2-D Castlevania (an increase of about 200%).  And let's also presume a wholesale price of $35 (retail around $45.00)  The projected revenues would be about 31.5 million dollars.  If Konami were confident in the sales goal, and satisfied with a 50% profit, they could invest $21 million dollars in a 2-D Castlevania budget.

But again, all of this speculation brings us back to the original problem.  We DON'T know how much Konami normally invests in 2-D Castlevania.  Nor do we know anything about Konami's methodology projecting sales, revenue, or profits.  We're not even really sure how Konami defines success...  Is a 5% profit successful?  How about 10%?  20%?  40%?  80%?  By what standard is success really measured?

We've been told LoS came about because the Castlevania brand wasn't "profitable", but technically that can only be true in relative terms.  Otherwise Konami wouldn't have bothered releasing a new DS game for the same price every couple years.  If you're just looking at hard dollars, then sure, games like MGS (with its millions of copies) will always be seen as "more profitable" based on the sales alone.  Moreover, if MGS has a 50% profit, and Castlevania has a 20% profit, then perhaps Konami may feel even more deeply discouraged...  But even at 5% profit, Castlevania would still be making money.

Unfortunately, we just don't have the facts we need to ask for anything more specific than a "serious investment".  We could speculate in circles for days and emerge from our conversation none the wiser.  What more need be said?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Gunlord on January 12, 2012, 06:25:13 PM
"Otherwise Konami wouldn't have bothered releasing a new DS game for the same price every couple years."

This isn't necessarily true, O beauteous Cecil-Cain-sama. Companies can on occasion be fairly bull-headed sometimes, pursuing an unprofitable strategy for years before finally getting the message that it's not working. That *may* have happened with the DS vanias. I'm not saying it necessarily happened, but it *may* have. Or it's possible they simply experienced diminishing returns--i.e DoS did very well, PoR a little less, and then OoE considerably less. If that happened, they might have turned to Lords of Shadow as a means of trying something new--something that might have maxed out returns rather than diminished ones, so to speak. :o
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 12, 2012, 07:19:46 PM
This isn't necessarily true, O beauteous Cecil-Cain-sama. Companies can on occasion be fairly bull-headed sometimes, pursuing an unprofitable strategy for years before finally getting the message that it's not working. That *may* have happened with the DS vanias. I'm not saying it necessarily happened, but it *may* have. Or it's possible they simply experienced diminishing returns--i.e DoS did very well, PoR a little less, and then OoE considerably less. If that happened, they might have turned to Lords of Shadow as a means of trying something new--something that might have maxed out returns rather than diminished ones, so to speak. :o

You may possibly be right about diminishing returns on the DS games.
The sales certainly declined...  Here's the data...

--DS Games--
DoS 351,951 sold
PoR 339,691 sold
OoE 289,166 sold

--PSP--
DXC 354,892 sold (not including the PSN downloads)

I was under the impression PoR and OoE recycled a good chunk of DoS' engine, but then again, game code is way outside my area of expertise.  Perhaps DoS sold the most copies, but it may also have been the most expensive and least profitable.  If indeed PoR and OoE recycled a big chunk of DoS' code to keep costs down, they may have reaped some rewards.  Not enough info to say one way or the other...

I was actually really surprised when I learned the DXC outsold each of the DS games.  It looks like the switch over from the DS to the PSP may have even hurt OoE's sales (OoE released a year after the DXC)

It maddens me that I can't find any PSN sales data.  I'm really curious if the DXC ever hit the 400k mark.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Gunlord on January 12, 2012, 09:17:53 PM
Prunyuu~! Thanks for the data. Now, I'm no magical code magician myself, but I would be very surprised if they *didn't* recycle the engine of DoS for the other two games. It's possible that DoS may have been the least profitable, but judging by the sales data you provided, the diminishing returns argument still applies...OoE sold less than PoR. Again, it seems to me that after OoE they still would have come to the conclusion that Castlevania was "unprofitable," and thus...alas...T_T
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Neobelmont on January 12, 2012, 09:52:24 PM
--PSP--
DXC 354,892 sold (not including the PSN downloads)

I was actually really surprised when I learned the DXC outsold each of the DS games.  It looks like the switch over from the DS to the PSP may have even hurt OoE's sales (OoE released a year after the DXC)

It maddens me that I can't find any PSN sales data.  I'm really curious if the DXC ever hit the 400k mark.

If it hit well the greatest hit's it must have sold a bucket loads worth, but then again let's look at dxc you are getting a new game and two classics the original and sequel three games for the price of one dxc was just more bang for your buck.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 12, 2012, 10:36:18 PM
Prunyuu~! Thanks for the data. Now, I'm no magical code magician myself, but I would be very surprised if they *didn't* recycle the engine of DoS for the other two games. It's possible that DoS may have been the least profitable, but judging by the sales data you provided, the diminishing returns argument still applies...OoE sold less than PoR. Again, it seems to me that after OoE they still would have come to the conclusion that Castlevania was "unprofitable," and thus...alas...T_T

Although we can make a reasonable estimate of the revenues (based on sales and pricing) we still don't have any idea how much Konami originally invested, so the returns on the investment (profits in dollars and %) remain unknowable...   :-\  In any case, it seems highly unlikely Konami would have allowed IGA to make the DXC if the DS games were failing under his leadership...
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on January 12, 2012, 11:06:46 PM
If it hit well the greatest hit's it must have sold a bucket loads worth, but then again let's look at dxc you are getting a new game and two classics the original and sequel three games for the price of one dxc was just more bang for your buck.
Greatest hits doesnt work like that. Not entirely. games that have been on the market for a certain amount of time tend to become greatest hits sometimes, especially if they dont do well. As a way to market them. Like "oh hey, this game is greatest hits! it must be good! Buy it!"
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: JR on January 13, 2012, 01:09:47 AM
Just out of curiosity, where did you hear that? The only criteria I've ever seen for a Greatest Hits release is number of copies sold and number of months on the market.

Aarrrgh! Deja vu!!
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: lurtz6 on January 13, 2012, 07:25:40 PM
Cecil-kain, this thread is the reason I joined this forum. I fully believe you are right in your cause, sir. Having read your mission statement, I also think you should focus more on Konami's lack of a 25th anniversery tribute to one of their oldest franchises. That is the real crime they have committed, by not honoring our beloved series. Operation Akujamo has another supporter, don't listen to all the discouraging feedback. Keep up the fight, sir.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on January 14, 2012, 09:06:08 AM
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How so?  Do you have an opposing view of the CVD?
No, it's just waht you said sound more like political propaganda, rather than genuine thing.

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Risk is part of any business.  There was a time when it was "do or die" for the game industry.  Risk was not optional.  Quality was not optional.  I'm sad to say, it may take another market crash to shake this industry out of its complacency.
Agree with that somewhat.
However, there are different kind of risks. Like when you invest into new technology and ideas and there is chance that it will be profitable.
And when you invest into something old fashioned and not exactly fresh, that probably will not return all the money that were put into the project.
2D CV HD for the big consoles (not DLC short game) would be the second case.

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If they have the money (and the time) why wouldn't this problem be fixed?
Because it's to late now?

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Unfortunately, we just don't have the facts we need to ask for anything more specific than a "serious investment".  We could speculate in circles for days and emerge from our conversation none the wiser.  What more need be said?
No offense, but this all talk about "profit and Konami", sounds like  speculative attempt to find some ground for your demands without having actual information on hand.

If anything, I support the notion that OA should concentrate on the future of the franchise not on its past, so to speak. Meaning it's better to demand just 2D CV HD, but without specifics, like return IGA on board or make remake of the certain game.

Also, I think I know how Konami could have worked around 2D CV HD project. I think it would be right for them to release such game in form of DLC episodes, including maybe 2-3 levels each. I know it sounds not very serious and similar to 2D monstrocity, that occupied PSN and Live, but I think nowadays that's the only way Konami could release something like what you demand.
Besides, such tactic allow Konami to instantly monitor profits, without retailers and practically immediately see how much fans and gamers in general, appreaciate their efforts.

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That is the real crime they have committed, by not honoring our beloved series.
Such statements always make me LOL.
No hard feelings.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 14, 2012, 03:10:37 PM

And when you invest into something old fashioned and not exactly fresh, that probably will not return all the money that were put into the project.  2D CV HD for the big consoles (not DLC short game) would be the second case.

So little faith...  It's unfortunate we'll never agree on this.
:'( 

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Because it's to late now?

Hopefully not, we'll see..

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No offense, but this all talk about "profit and Konami", sounds like  speculative attempt to find some ground for your demands without having actual information on hand.

I was simply alleviating your confusion about a "serious investment" by providing some extra context.  Our desire is all the "grounds" we need to tell Konami what we want.  It's unfortunate we don't have enough data for a clear and convincing argument, but that's the reality of the situation for now.

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If anything, I support the notion that OA should concentrate on the future of the franchise not on its past, so to speak. Meaning it's better to demand just 2D CV HD, but without specifics, like return IGA on board or make remake of the certain game.

I respect your points here, but again, the specific games we're talking about are supported by a consensus of the fans.  At this point, any sign of Konami investing in quality (2-D Castlevania) would be considered a major breakthough --even if it isn't for the specific games that we're asking for.

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Also, I think I know how Konami could have worked around 2D CV HD project. I think it would be right for them to release such game in form of DLC episodes, including maybe 2-3 levels each. I know it sounds not very serious and similar to 2D monstrocity, that occupied PSN and Live, but I think nowadays that's the only way Konami could release something like what you demand.

The Mission Statement never ruled out a DLC game, but breaking it up with episodic downloads would be a major drawback if it takes them 6 months to complete the package (like HD on XBLA) 

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Besides, such tactic allow Konami to instantly monitor profits, without retailers and practically immediately see how much fans and gamers in general, appreaciate their efforts.

I still think Rebirth and HD were Konami's way of testing the market.  Hopefully those games delivered some encouraging results...[/quote]
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Successor The Cruel on January 15, 2012, 12:04:53 AM
Cecil-kain, this thread is the reason I joined this forum. I fully believe you are right in your cause, sir. Having read your mission statement, I also think you should focus more on Konami's lack of a 25th anniversery tribute to one of their oldest franchises. That is the real crime they have committed, by not honoring our beloved series.

I respect your stance, but I disagree. The 25th anniversary stuff is small potatoes.

The real crime they've committed to me is Lords of Shadow. It makes Castlevania seem as though it's ashamed to be itself and betrays the fans of the series under the cause of trying to get new fans. New fans are fine and dandy, but not at the expense of the series' heart, soul, and identity. Goblins, orcs, trolls, giants, and reboots are not what is needed to entice potential fans.

Besides that, Konami just let the series flounder by neglecting it while also asking too much of it too fast with too little resources, which created a string of lackluster (PoR, DoS, LoI, CoD) and stupidly weird (Judgment, Harmony of Despair) titles.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Raxivace on January 15, 2012, 01:20:47 AM
Why is this called Operation: Akumajo? You'd probably get some more support from other people if you just called it Operation: Castlevania.

It's not like non-Castlevania fans have any idea what Akumajo would be in reference to. Even if they hadn't played any of the games though, most gamers have at least heard of Castlevania.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on January 15, 2012, 08:31:25 AM
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So little faith...  It's unfortunate we'll never agree on this.
I believe in pragmatism, especially, when it concerns money and big companies.

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The Mission Statement never ruled out a DLC game, but breaking it up with episodic downloads would be a major drawback if it takes them 6 months to complete the package (like HD on XBLA)
 
At least it's more realistic somewhat. And expectance could be worth it.

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I still think Rebirth and HD were Konami's way of testing the market.  Hopefully those games delivered some encouraging results...
HD was mishmash of "metroidvanias" legacy. I doubt that it could be considered "quality" entry in the series. Besides it's coop. game - one of the major points of this game and its advertisement.
It's kind of make it different from "2D HD CV" thing.

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It's not like non-Castlevania fans have any idea what Akumajo would be in reference to. Even if they hadn't played any of the games though, most gamers have at least heard of Castlevania.
He kind of thinks that people will think that Castlevania refer to the Lords of Shadow - direction which his project doesn not support.
For him - Akumajou is the name accocitaed with old direction (2d / Metroidvania) games of the franchise.
I personally disagree with this for the same reasons as you do. And besides some of the japanese releases in the series were also named "Castlevania" - such was the with COTM and LOI at least. Which make his point obsolete.

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The real crime they've committed to me is Lords of Shadow. It makes Castlevania seem as though it's ashamed to be itself and betrays the fans of the series under the cause of trying to get new fans. New fans are fine and dandy, but not at the expense of the series' heart, soul, and identity. Goblins, orcs, trolls, giants, and reboots are not what is needed to entice potential fans.

And this is the reason why I not support OA or any of the old school fans.
"Crime", "heart and soul", "diginity" - LOL. Sewious business. It's just a video game series, the one that doesn't belong to you.
You said yourself that last entries were luckluster and weird. It was obvious that something radical would be done with the franchise at that point. And now you aggravated.

Such is the fans - they won't move a finger as long as franchise gives them at least 40% of satisfaction. DOS and POR were among of the worst games for the different reasons, but did fans rebelled? Nope.
Because those games gave'em "metroidvania", however how much "heart and soul" of the series the had is questionable at best. It's like the old joke about mice who were crying, but continued to eat the cactus.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: cecil-kain on January 15, 2012, 10:18:40 AM
Why is this called Operation: Akumajo? You'd probably get some more support from other people if you just called it Operation: Castlevania.

It's not like non-Castlevania fans have any idea what Akumajo would be in reference to. Even if they hadn't played any of the games though, most gamers have at least heard of Castlevania.

The name is explained by the Mission Statement here's a quick link.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Operation-Akumajo/243488722337560?sk=info (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Operation-Akumajo/243488722337560?sk=info)


I believe in pragmatism, especially, when it concerns money and big companies.

The arts, entertainment, and other luxuries aren't exactly pragmatic businesses.  There's plenty of risk and volatility to keep these industries on their toes --that's why we see so many familiar IPs recycled as a constant crutch.

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HD was mishmash of "metroidvanias" legacy. I doubt that it could be considered "quality" entry in the series. Besides it's coop. game - one of the major points of this game and its advertisement.
It's kind of make it different from "2D HD CV" thing.

That's a fair point, but I was thinking in more general terms.  HD may have possibly reached a new audience that never played the DS games --the recycled mishmash wouldn't be as offensive to them.  If Rebirth and HD experienced good sales and high profit margins, that may possibly have given Konami some real encouragement to make a serious investment in the Akumajo games later in the future.  That was my only point.

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He kind of thinks that people will think that Castlevania refer to the Lords of Shadow - direction which his project doesn not support. For him - Akumajou is the name accocitaed with old direction (2d / Metroidvania) games of the franchise.

Close, but not exactly.  See link above.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on January 16, 2012, 11:29:27 AM
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The arts, entertainment, and other luxuries aren't exactly pragmatic businesses.
When art produced by big companies it inevitably will rely on pragmatism.

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If Rebirth and HD experienced good sales and high profit margins, that may possibly have given Konami some real encouragement to make a serious investment in the Akumajo games later in the future.  That was my only point.
I agree, but so far Konami didn't seemingly took it into consideration.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Claimh Solais on January 16, 2012, 12:47:44 PM
That's a fair point, but I was thinking in more general terms.  HD may have possibly reached a new audience that never played the DS games --the recycled mishmash wouldn't be as offensive to them.  If Rebirth and HD experienced good sales and high profit margins, that may possibly have given Konami some real encouragement to make a serious investment in the Akumajo games later in the future.  That was my only point.

This. I didn't play the DS games until after I played HD. This made me want to go and check the games out.

HD, despite being lazy, is actually a very solid game. It's just that everyone's taking so much offense to it reusing the resources from previous games that some of them don't even give it a shot. I've only played Multiplayer once (I plan on getting it again on PS3 for the local co-op), but the Single Player is still really good, despite the looooooooong stages.

My only beef with the game (other than no local co-op in the 360 version and lack of new DLC)? The little gimmicks from the games it takes itself from are gone. The Peeping Eyes outside the windows, said windows opening and shutting themselves in SotN's main hall, multi-layered backgrounds, etc. That stuff's gone.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Malus793 on January 23, 2012, 10:31:49 PM

However I don't think it's just the developer's fault. From what I've noticed, after the influx of 2D series switching to 3D games in the late 90s, all a lot of fans want is to sit there and play the games they grew up with, whether they're dated or not.

Why would anyone want to look at the Mona Lisa or Starry Night when there are so many new works of art out there to view?

Just because something is old or, as you've put it, "dated" doesn't mean it somehow loses everything that made it great in the first place.  Mega Man 2 will always be a game that I can pick up and play in between online CoD matches or sidequests in Skyrim not so much because of nostalgia (if that were true, I'd be playing Silver Surfer for the NES right now simply because it's something I did in my youth) but because it simply is a masterpiece of video game design.  Certain modern games would get that distinction from me.  Certain others would not.  I love my classic games, but I don't feel the need to fight the future, either.  I love my modern games, but I don't feel the need to abandon everything that came before it in the name of "progress". 

There's actually an old saying that somehow seems pretty apt: "You can't know where you're going if you don't know where you've been."  Looking backward is just as important as looking forward, and, sadly, I'd say there are just as many folks who want to dismiss classic games simply because they're old as there are "hardcore gamers" who want to dismiss modern games simply because they're new.  One is as closed-minded as the other, and likely the silent majority falls somewhere in the middle.

All IMO, of course.

I won't bother touching the mess that is Sonic fans, but significantly large portions of fans from numerous other fanbases explode in protest when developers try and expand their audience, either with arguments of "too casual!" or "too different!" whether those claims are warranted at all. This ultimately drove the whole retro thing, and we started getting games like Megaman 9 and 10, or Sonic the Hedgehog 4, which good or bad, did absolutely nothing for gaming as a whole.

That seems awfully general, and probably more than a little biased.  The Bionic Commando fan community seemed very receptive to a 3D BC game, especially after GRIN's work on BC: Rearmed promised a new experience that stays in touch with what came before.  Unfortunately, poor gameplay and nonsensical story sank that battleship before it even left the harbor.  Or maybe you mean the Mega Man fan community, which seemed pretty pumped for Legends 3 until Capcom inexplicably pulled the plug for reasons that are nebulous at best, and whose last serious 3D Mega Man offering was the control-and-camera angle nightmare known as X7.  How about Contra: Legacy of War?  There was a brilliant attempt at bringing Contra into 3D.  Of course, it sacrificed everything that made Contra what it was in the first place, but we can overlook that, right?

And you seem to be forgetting all of the jumps that were successful.  While you may be quick to say that Mario 64 sold so well because Mario can sell anything, the fact remains that it's actually a perfect translation of Mario's world and mechanics into the third dimension, making it a really solid game.  You're also wrong--for all his name power, Mario couldn't sell a Phillips CD-i.  Legend of Zelda made the jump successfully with Ocarina of Time.  Fans of Metroid really had their worlds rocked with not only a jump to 3D, but also a completely different play style in the form of an FPS with Prime.  And remember when I mentioned Mega Man Legends?  Though Capcom has gone completely bonkers as of late, I think the fan support proves that Legends was a successful experiment in bringing Mega Man to 3D.  The same is true of Metal Gear, Ninja Gaiden, and Final Fantasy.

The fact of the matter is that some conversions have worked and some have not.  Instead of pointing the finger at the fanbase and blaming them for being resistant to change, instead consider that they may just be resistant to crap.  Not everything is golden simply because it's new or "modern", just as everything old isn't automatically awesome simply by virtue of being old.

And as for Mega Man 9 and 10 contributing "nothing", I highly disagree.  That would be like saying that an artist using watercolors contributes nothing to the art world simply because we now have the ability to use photoshop.  If nothing else, games like MM9 and 10 prove that, in the hands of a skilled master, materials dismissed as "dated" can still be used to create masterpieces.

Thus why I can't support OA. I don't want Castlevania III HD or Castlevania Demon Castle War of the Night. I want a new game.

You got God of Inferno May Cry.  While it's certainly new-er than Metroidvania (1993 compared to 2001), it's still not exactly what I'd call "current" or "fresh". 

I agree with you in that I'm pretty sure the word Castlevania is an 1980's attempt at getting Americans to play a Japanese game by making it sound less Japanese.

That, along with the fact that Western censors seemed to shy away from anything with religious undertones (i.e. "Demon Castle", holy cross becomes "boomerang", holy water becomes "fire bomb", etc.).

Which is why I have to ask: didn't Cox only say Lords of Shadow wasn't an Akumajo game AFTER Operation Akumajo made the distinction?

It seems to me that they were asking for clarification on why it wasn't called Akumajo Dracula in Japan and David Cox confirmed that it was because Lords of Shadow is, in fact, a member of a different genus known as "Castlevania".  Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, considering there really was no difference until Cox said there was.

Because by his own words he sees it as a Castlevania game, and if his ultimate goal is to differentiate Akumajo Dracula and Castlevania, then he'd be putting Lords of Shadow in the same bin as Harmony of Dissonance, Aria of Sorrow, and Lament of Innocence.

Except you're ignoring three important points.

1. The later games in the Akumajo Dracula series (such as Dawn of Sorrow--a direct sequel to Aria of Sorrow--and Portrait of Ruin) pull Dissonance, Aria, and Lament into the same timeline as the rest with both in-game references and officially released supplemental timelines.

2. There was and is little to indicate that Dissonance, Aria, and Lament have anything in common with Lords of Shadow other than the fact that they're called "Castlevania" in Japan--and, until Lords of Shadow came along, that meant next to nothing.

3. David Cox isn't exactly the poster child for "doing the research", so I somehow doubt he knows even as much as we do about the original name change and what truly makes Castlevania different from Akumajo Dracula (nothing but region and now, apparently, Lords of Shadow).

It's a title, and everyone needs to get over it.

...except David Cox is the one who seems to think that there's some huge difference between Akumajo Dracula and Castlevania--which there wasn't until he insisted that there should be.  Any issues due to difference in name are because he's made the distinction something more than it ever was or should have been in the first place.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on January 23, 2012, 11:40:59 PM
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Mega Man 2
Is way too overrated. 3 is much better.

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whose last serious 3D Mega Man offering was the control-and-camera angle nightmare known as X7.
Actually Command Mission was, and it was amazing. Visually and storywise.

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And as for Mega Man 9 and 10 contributing "nothing", I highly disagree.  That would be like saying that an artist using watercolors contributes nothing to the art world simply because we now have the ability to use photoshop.  If nothing else, games like MM9 and 10 prove that, in the hands of a skilled master, materials dismissed as "dated" can still be used to create masterpieces.
people say they contribute nothing because they change nothing, and in fact, have regressed by like 6 games. They removed the charge and slide, which were staples of the series, and instead tried to be Mega Man 2. 9 went so far as to actually reuse Mega Man 2 jingles. Particularly the God awful 2 note weapon get.

10 was DEFINITELY much better, and seemed to back away a bit from trying to be Mega Man 2, but still had a few of the same issues, mainly no slide or charge.

And something which cannot go without mention- The shop. having everything available in the shop is the very trap that X8 fell into. It reduces stage replay and eliminates any exploration of the stage. I want to find my upgrades in the stage. I want to EARN them, not grind for them. (which by the way, is very easy in 9 due to the broken Jewel Satellite)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Malus793 on January 24, 2012, 11:49:33 AM
Is way too overrated. 3 is much better.

IMO, Mega Man 2 earns every bit of the accolades it receives. 

I would actually take the somewhat opposite view of stating that Mega Man 3 is underrated.  A bit too easy at times, but a deftly made offering nonetheless.

Actually Command Mission was, and it was amazing. Visually and storywise.

I completely forgot about Command Mission.  You're right; it was amazing.  Unfortunate that Capcom did not see fit to continue with a sequel.  From what I could tell, the MM fan community was quite receptive to it.

people say they contribute nothing because they change nothing, and in fact, have regressed by like 6 games.

Change doesn't always equal contribution, and certainly not every change is good.  I think my original statement concerning good use of materials in the hands of a proper master still stands.

As for the regression, not many seemed to miss the absent elements.  In fact, this is literally the first time I've read of anyone counting the missing elements as a bad thing.

They removed the charge and slide, which were staples of the series,

Protoman has those...and, honestly, I think 9 plays just fine without them.

and instead tried to be Mega Man 2. 9 went so far as to actually reuse Mega Man 2 jingles. Particularly the God awful 2 note weapon get.

Three tunes were reused (weapon get, password jingle, and wily tower map).  The rest were new and seem to be universally accepted as fantastic (a notion with which I would agree).  The only other way that the game tries to be like Mega Man 2, then, is in its difficulty level--which is actually something I welcome.  I expect games to be challenging.

I mean, I know Inafune's intention was to make the game LIKE Mega Man 2 (in that it should seek to capture the same feelings one has while playing Mega Man 2), but that in no way means the game tries to be a carbon copy of Mega Man 2.  I think 9 is successful at being its own entity.

10 was DEFINITELY much better, and seemed to back away a bit from trying to be Mega Man 2, but still had a few of the same issues, mainly no slide or charge.

Again, I don't really see 9 as "trying to be Mega Man 2", but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.  Likewise, I reassert that this is the first time I've read a complaint about the lack of a slide or charge--and, indeed, 10 plays just fine without them, IMO, and if you don't think so, you always have the option of playing the game as Protoman.

As for 10 being much better, I would equate it to Mega Man 3 in that it's underrated, if a bit unchallenging.

And something which cannot go without mention- The shop. having everything available in the shop is the very trap that X8 fell into. It reduces stage replay and eliminates any exploration of the stage. I want to find my upgrades in the stage. I want to EARN them, not grind for them. (which by the way, is very easy in 9 due to the broken Jewel Satellite)

I agree that the shop makes things much easier, but I do feel it's more apparent in 10 than in 9.  Regardless of the broken Jewel Satellite, 9 will make you use every E-Tank that you buy--especially the first several times you play through it.  10 is more forgiving in that regard.

And I think it's important to remember that the term "masterpiece" is not synonymous with "perfect".  Obviously, anything made by man will have flaws--that's just the nature of creation. 
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on January 24, 2012, 12:25:48 PM
Actually, another issue which I forgot about before, is that 9 relies on a particular cheap gimmick to artificially harden the level. they blindside the player with that offscreen claw grabber which drags you into spikes. That's pretty unforgivable.

Also, yes, Protoman has the charge and slide, but the game punishes you for it, by making you take double damage and knockback from it. Powered up at least had it as an unlockable. it should be something that can be purchased at the shop, perhaps upon beating the game.

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IMO, Mega Man 2 earns every bit of the accolades it receives.

That doesnt mean it's the best mega man ever, which everyone treats it as. It's a good game, nothing more. a good sequel, with good music, but theres no need to constantly fawn over it when there are other classic games in the series that are of the same if not better quality, and bring much more to the table.

Im also sick of hearing the Wily fortress theme stage 1. Absolutely sick.
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Change doesn't always equal contribution, and certainly not every change is good.
its not exactly good when it's a regression instead of a progression.

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Protoman has those...and, honestly, I think 9 plays just fine without them.
both games constantly throw at you areas and enemies that seem to mock the fact you cant slide. particularly shield enemies, which were introduced as a mechanic to USE the slide against.

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I think 9 is successful at being its own entity.
10 succeeds FAR better at that.
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Likewise, I reassert that this is the first time I've read a complaint about the lack of a slide or charge--and, indeed, 10 plays just fine without them, IMO, and if you don't think so, you always have the option of playing the game as Protoman.
the lack of slide or charge was always one complaint people had. Im more upset about it's absence in 10. in 9 its understandable that after having disarmed to an extent, Rock had no time to fully upgrade back, but for 10 it's just an inexcusable gimmick to make the game harder.

Also, I dont want to have to be punished for use of the Charge and slide.

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Regardless of the broken Jewel Satellite,
jewel satellite is the sole item that breaks the shop. you can purchase the max number of E tanks after just leaving the game running in plug man's stage with the satellite on.

10 doesnt have such a broken way to farm.

Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on January 24, 2012, 01:05:48 PM
Malus793, pretty much agree with many things you said, but this:
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The fact of the matter is that some conversions have worked and some have not.  Instead of pointing the finger at the fanbase and blaming them for being resistant to change, instead consider that they may just be resistant to crap.  Not everything is golden simply because it's new or "modern", just as everything old isn't automatically awesome simply by virtue of being old.
Some fanbases really stuck up. It happens when developers reuse the same formula (or pieces of said formula with little to no changes) for too long. As a consequence some long time fans began to think that they some sort of "elite" that have the right to dictate other fans how they should think of the series (some individuals even believe that they know better than the developers themselves how the game should be). Usually those "elite" guys is the major source of troubles in the fanbase - not only they try to humilate people who disagree with them, but also forcibly try to force they point view on others. Hence certain closemindedness of the vocal fanbase. There are plenty of fans outthere, who just love games and not spent their time on forums trying to tell the others "how their series should be".

On unrelated note: MegaMan 3 is much better than 2. And I'd go so far to say that its the best MM game on the NES.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: GummiCandyful on January 24, 2012, 01:10:31 PM
Not only that, but the music is much more appealing. I honestly don't see what's so great about MM2's OST, because quite frankly, 3 had better stage music, among other things.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: crisis on January 24, 2012, 01:22:28 PM
this isn't a megaman thread
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: JR on January 24, 2012, 02:42:29 PM
Malus793, pretty much agree with many things you said, but this:Some fanbases really stuck up. It happens when developers reuse the same formula (or pieces of said formula with little to no changes) for too long. As a consequence some long time fans began to think that they some sort of "elite" that have the right to dictate other fans how they should think of the series (some individuals even believe that they know better than the developers themselves how the game should be). Usually those "elite" guys is the major source of troubles in the fanbase - not only they try to humilate people who disagree with them, but also forcibly try to force they point view on others. Hence certain closemindedness of the vocal fanbase. There are plenty of fans outthere, who just love games and not spent their time on forums trying to tell the others "how their series should be".


Do you ever resist an opportunity to badmouth a fanbase?? I think what you said has some truth to it in some circumstances, but come on.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on January 24, 2012, 03:50:47 PM
this isn't a megaman thread
DOHOHOHO...

IT IS NOW!
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Malus793 on January 24, 2012, 06:23:56 PM
Actually, another issue which I forgot about before, is that 9 relies on a particular cheap gimmick to artificially harden the level. they blindside the player with that offscreen claw grabber which drags you into spikes. That's pretty unforgivable.

I disagree.

1. "Relies"?  He's in two levels that I can recall--Galaxy Man's and a Wily level.  That doesn't make 9 seem overly reliant on him to me.
2. A basic enemy whose pattern can easily be recognized and anticipated is hardly what I'd call a "cheap gimmick to artificially harden the level".
3. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out that if the enemy appears on the screen once and there are a ton of spikes around, he'll probably be on the screen again to utilize those same spikes.

Can he be frustrating?  Maybe if you run-and-gun like you're playing Contra and keep getting caught by him, yes.  But if you keep your wits about you, chances are you'll avoid him most of the time.

Also, yes, Protoman has the charge and slide, but the game punishes you for it, by making you take double damage and knockback from it. Powered up at least had it as an unlockable. it should be something that can be purchased at the shop, perhaps upon beating the game.

Man, you really love your slide and charge shot.

IMO, the Mega Man portion of the game just doesn't need them.  The game isn't impossible to complete without them. 
 
That doesnt mean it's the best mega man ever, which everyone treats it as. It's a good game, nothing more. a good sequel, with good music, but theres no need to constantly fawn over it when there are other classic games in the series that are of the same if not better quality, and bring much more to the table.

We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.

Like I said, MM3 is underrated.  You'll get no argument about that from me.  I'd even go so far as to say 4 and 5 are likewise underrated.  But 2 just had that wow factor--it's difficulty level is high without being sadistic or unfair (like the original), the music was memorable, and it just had the "it" that pushes games into the realm of legendary.  Plus, I have to give it props for making Mega Man as celebrated as it is (and for saving the series from oblivion after Mega Man 1's quiet release).  The game earned its accolades, IMO.

Im also sick of hearing the Wily fortress theme stage 1. Absolutely sick.

...Kind of a random tangent, I have to admit.  That's more the fault of remixers and cover-ers than the game itself, I'd think.

its not exactly good when it's a regression instead of a progression.

Moves that make the game easier also make it more enjoyable for you.  I understand that.  I just don't agree.  *shrugs*

both games constantly throw at you areas and enemies that seem to mock the fact you cant slide. particularly shield enemies, which were introduced as a mechanic to USE the slide against.

That's where timing and well-placed shots come in.  Again, the game isn't impossible or even unfair without charge shot or slide.

Out of curiosity, did you complete 9 and 10?

10 succeeds FAR better at that.

Realistically, I think they both succeed just as well at that.

the lack of slide or charge was always one complaint people had.


If it was, I don't recall it ever being considered a deal-breaker or even anything more than a minor annoyance.  But I honestly don't recall anyone complaining about it.  To the contrary, I do recall people stating that the games prove just how much people over-relied on slide and charge shot to plow through.  *shrugs* Maybe we just hung out on different Mega Man message boards.

Im more upset about it's absence in 10. in 9 its understandable that after having disarmed to an extent, Rock had no time to fully upgrade back, but for 10 it's just an inexcusable gimmick to make the game harder.


Even without them, I wouldn't agree that the game is especially difficult.  In fact, 10 is quite a bit less difficult than 9, IMO.  And actually quite a bit less difficult than 3, I'd say.

Also, I dont want to have to be punished for use of the Charge and slide.


As you've said.  I just don't agree that it's a big deal, or that it should be a deal-breaker.  *shrugs*

jewel satellite is the sole item that breaks the shop. you can purchase the max number of E tanks after just leaving the game running in plug man's stage with the satellite on.


Not that it helps much, since 9's Wily levels consistently kick my ass, lol.  I make use of each and every single one of those E-Tanks.


10 doesnt have such a broken way to farm.

10 really doesn't need it, either, as it's a lot easier, IMO.  But I won't disagree that Jewel Satellite is broken.  I still don't think that pushes MM9 out of "masterpiece" status.

Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Malus793, pretty much agree with many things you said, but this:Some fanbases really stuck up.

Oh, I agree.  The Sonic fandom seems to be a perfect example of this.

It happens when developers reuse the same formula (or pieces of said formula with little to no changes) for too long. As a consequence some long time fans began to think that they some sort of "elite" that have the right to dictate other fans how they should think of the series (some individuals even believe that they know better than the developers themselves how the game should be).

That might be one reason, sure.  I think another reason is something as simple as personal preference.  That's something shared by both sides of the argument...I think the series should be approached one way, you think it should be approached another, we both have the advantage of sitting behind the mask that is the internet, and conflict inevitably erupts.  *shrugs*  Human nature.

As for fans knowing better than developers, I think in some cases it's a valid belief.  There's a fine interplay between developer and audience that I sometimes think both sides forget about.  The relationship can be equated to a delicate machine, one requiring both sides to put in equal energy and dedication.  When one side fails to do so, it throws the machine (the relationship and, ultimately, the fandom) into disorder.  While I agree that fans should never forget where their next game fix will come from, I think it's equally reasonable to expect that developers should never forget who purchases their products in the first place.

Since this ultimately turns back towards Lords of Shadow vs. Akumajo Dracula, allow me to make my position on certain issues perfectly clear:

1. I like Lords of Shadow.  It was genuinely a fun game to play, and one in the same vein as Dante's Inferno and the God of War games (which I also enjoyed).
2. I do not think that Lords of Shadow should carry the name "Castlevania".
3. I do not think that there should be a difference between "Castlevania" and "Akumajo Dracula" aside from region/translation. 
4. I think that Castlevania/Akumajo Dracula was suffering from stagnation at the end of IGA's tenure.
5. I do not agree that a hard reboot was needed to revitalize Castlevania.  Indeed, a soft reboot (i.e. one that kept certain games--like the NES trilogy) could have done the trick.
6. I think Castlevania/Akumajo Dracula suffers from identity crisis.  It simply lacks identity and doesn't seem sure of what it should be anymore.
7. I think IGA phoned it in a lot because he was too much of a fan.
8. I think David Cox is phoning it in because he's not enough of a fan.
9. I think that Operation: Akumajo is doing something that's necessary in much the same way that the Occupy protesters are.
10. Like the Occupy protesters, I think that Operation: Akumajo is going about it the wrong way and needs to focus a bit more on specific goals.
11. I do believe it's possible to please longtime fans while appealing to a new audience.

I love Castlevania/Akumajo Dracula.  I love the Castlevania/Akumajo Dracula mythos.  I'd love it if a developer would finally take the mythos/series seriously without stripping away its identity.

Usually those "elite" guys is the major source of troubles in the fanbase - not only they try to humilate people who disagree with them, but also forcibly try to force they point view on others. Hence certain closemindedness of the vocal fanbase. There are plenty of fans outthere, who just love games and not spent their time on forums trying to tell the others "how their series should be".

I agree with this.  I think they're the majority, actually.  Sometimes they're misread by developers as "casual" gamers.  Sometimes they're misread by developers as "hardcore" gamers.  In truth, they're at times both and neither.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: A-Yty on January 24, 2012, 07:26:35 PM
What is the "problem" actually? This "elite" fanbase is completely entitled to its preferences like anyone else. If Konami fails to make CV a best-seller - and especially if they fail at it because of these elite individuals - that's their own silly blunder. It's especially hilarious since some (*cough*sumac*cough*) often preach how meaningless the old fans' opinions are, yet pretty much all they do is whine about how these old, meaningless, picky elites don't like LoS.

Konami is the one failing. If they put some real good effort into this, they would either succeed in pleasing their original fanbase or making CV a hot seller for those that aren't fans. You can bitch and moan all you want about the haters and the old fans and the elites and the Illuminati, but it's Konami that has made the decisions that have gotten Castlevania into where it is now.

Yeah, there are some fans who can be dicks and elitists (this goes for lots and lots of things - be it a movie series, games or whatever), but what else does that mean besides the occasional Internet forum flaming? How much of a problem are they?
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 24, 2012, 07:58:16 PM
Konami is the one failing. If they put some real good effort into this, they would either succeed in pleasing their original fanbase or making CV a hot seller for those that aren't fans.


Not often you hear truer words.

If Konami bucked up, put some cold hard cash on the tables of both their production staff and marketing staff and said "This needs to be the biggest thing since the Russian Revolution", I'm pretty sure it would happen.

As it stands, Konami relies too much on word of mouth to reach new fans, and disregarding actual quality for a moment, Harmony of Despair and Lords of Shadow haven't done a great job of endearing themselves to the old fans, whilst simultaneously failing to reach new fans, because Konami isn't generating interest in Castlevania; they're too busy hyping MGS Rising: Revengeance and the Silent Hill HD Collection.

A good marketer can and will sell ice to an Eskimo, because money is money, and selling someone something they don't need is what marketing is all about in the end.

Konami's Castlevania marketers couldn't sell water to a dying man in the desert, because the man in the desert will SURELY stumble across the water they're peddling EVENTUALLY, right? Even if it's more than a bit muddy?

I mean, you're thirsty! Give us your coin and take a damn drink from what we're selling-- what do you mean it's dirty? IT'S WATER YOU IDIOT. DRINK UP, OR YOU GET NOTHING AT ALL.

That's how the Castlevania marketers are behaving.

I don't care what your opinions of the games are at the moment.

In the end, they want us to accept whatever they offer that we stumble across by almost random chance. They want us to buy their water, but they don't post signs to the marketplace, and when we actually come across it blindly and dying of thirst, we find the water is dirty, unhealthy and not up to the standards it should be meeting.

So we look somewhere else in the market, and find more exciting options than dirty water.

"Say, the bar over at Square-Enix is offering some good looking cocktails. It may burn going down, but that's just proof you're alive! Ooh, but Sucker Punch and Rockstar have Brandy that's ON FIRE! Say, Valve's got great drinks of every variety ON TAP!"

And we move away from the crooked water salesmen, and then they blame us for having bad taste.

No, Konami, the fact is, you can't sell a product, especially one that doesn't meet our standards.

That's just the way it is.

Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Sumac on January 25, 2012, 10:55:07 AM
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I think the series should be approached one way, you think it should be approached another, we both have the advantage of sitting behind the mask that is the internet, and conflict inevitably erupts.  *shrugs*  Human nature.
I agree with that. But I believe such preferences could be discussed without dissing people for having other opinions ("People who like game X are not true fans", "People who like Z are modern gamers who don't know better", "People who like Y are immature and stupid", e.t.c.). Such concept that people who disagree with your opinion are somehow worse than you is quite stupid. It's like saying "people who like disco are more stupid than people who like rock" - why? It doesn't make sense. It's just preference.

Another side effect, some people in the fandom began to think that they are somehow higher in position than other people in the fanbase, because they've been with the series longer or collect more series-related merchandise. I've seen those people and they really have a negative effect on everyone, since more often then not, they use they "old-timer" position to dictate what people should like or what not. It discourage any open-minded approach to the subject, since everyone who dare to state some other opinion will be ridiculed and taunted, inevitably creating a horrible pattern where certain things would be hated, because some of the "elite" guys hate them.

I've seen such things in the MGS fandom for example. Many people have became fans of the series after original MGS on PSX. Then Konami made a remake of this game on GameCube, using new engine and new director. While this game have some short comings it was universally hated by many longtime fans as "sacrilige against holy game that is original MGS". They bashed absolutely everything: graphics, gameplay, AI, voice acting, you named it. More often then not they complaints steemed from simple fanboism, since MGS was the first game that they played in the series and an attempt to remade it "hurt they feelings". Worse yet some new fans, that come on board, become thrashing the game, even if they never played it, simply because they older comrades "new better" and because they wanted to be "cool" (be a part of the crowd - barking with everyone). That simple example, when "elite" people harm fanbase. I've seen another, on one Final Fantasy forum - everyone who liked anything about FF13 were immdiately attacked, sometimes with insults. Even worse those attackers included one of the moderators of the forum, who by default should be more or less over the confilct, not creating it. The common theme was like "those people never played NES and SNES and don't know better". As it was their fault... That's kind of a textbook example of why "elite" should be somehow controled or at least not completely trusted, when it come to opinions.

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As for fans knowing better than developers, I think in some cases it's a valid belief.

I disagree with that. Developers in most cases are people, who payed to make games and who supposedly know how to do it. Of course some developers fail to create a good product, but afterall its not a reason to trust "random oldscholl joe" on the forum to decide what should be in game ot what not. I already talked about certain stuck upness of the old communities and if some of those "old-schoolers" will be in deciding position the series, I believe, it will be destroyed by barrage of clones, created in vein of the "old good gmaes" (by the standard of 1995). Or inner fighting of "elite" fans who will decide who is more TruE fan than the other.

Besides everyone could be "cool guy who know how everything should be" on the internet. It is very different things - have general vision and ideas and practical know-how of inner-workings of the game to make them come true. That's why I believe, if some fans wnat to decide what games they want play, instead of hating developers, they should go and make said games themselves. There are many free engines nowadays, so it shouldn't be the problem. But in the end its much easier to give "very important instructions to the developers", than go and do something by themselves. It seems its actually the reason why so many fan developed projects come to stop. Because saying is a one thing, doing it - is completely another.

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The relationship can be equated to a delicate machine, one requiring both sides to put in equal energy and dedication.
What kind of energy should come from fans, I don't understand?
They are consumers buying games. Its developers who doing all the "dirty" job. I don't think that going to the shop requre that much energy. As well as loving or hating game on forums.
And not fans make money for the companies. At least not nowadays. Its general gamers who make millions. Fans rather a small drop in that sea.

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What is the "problem" actually? This "elite" fanbase is completely entitled to its preferences
Of course they are. However I am against forcing their opinion on new people or the ones who have different opinions. Discussion is a one thing, bullying is the other.

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You can bitch and moan all you want about the haters and the old fans and the elites and the Illuminati, but it's Konami that has made the decisions that have gotten Castlevania into where it is now.
And even Konami sometimes look at what fanbase want. The whole "metroidvania" is almost example of it.
Do you know why Castlevania became what it is now? Because fans wanted it.
They wanted more SOTN-like games? They've got'em.
They wanted more protagonists in vein of Alucard. They've got'em.
Partial reason for the current 2D CV downfall is that fans were ready to eat anything that even remotely resembled Symphony of the Night. Konami knew this and happily make IGA make more and more SOTN-clones. And fanbase was satissfied with it actually, even when products were of a not so good quality (POR). But no one bitched and moaned, because it was in vein-of-glorious-SOTN.

When ultimately 2D CV somewhat stopped attract people who were not SOTN fans, Konami understood that they were doing something wrong. And only when they took drastical steps to revitalize the franchise, part of the fanbase was enraged. But possibly the very same fans should have made some movements even before this situation comes to a logical end with a new approach to the universe? Of course its easy now to compare "there is LOS, there is other CV games - choose what you like". But back then? It was easier to sit on your butt and say: "WOW, another SOTN-clone!! How cool is that? Well, it doesn't have half of the SOTN-atmosphere and plot is stupid, but still this game is quite close to a SOTN and I will have my faith in Konami that they will be able to make the next clone better!!"
It was an optimism of the shipwreck victim swimming in a sinking bathtub: "Everything will be OK, they just need sometime".

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No, Konami, the fact is, you can't sell a product, especially one that doesn't meet our standards.
And then...LOS was succesful at the market. And big company really shouldn't care that much about opinion of some of the old fans, since, I repeat, they are not the ones who make millions. So, Konami do it right and fans bitch and moan because developers didn't consult with them how the new game should be. Reminds of situations, when the child began crying, because his ice cream had fallen on the ground. Sorry, its gravitation baby and it will not think of how unfair it is to you. =)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on January 25, 2012, 11:13:49 AM
To its defense, Aria was a very good Symphony clone. (probably the bst symphony clone)
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 25, 2012, 11:15:26 AM
It goes beyond being the best Symphony clones and becomes one of the best Castlevania's, period.
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: crisis on January 25, 2012, 11:20:06 AM
I wish it would've been released on consoles, in fact if they were to remake this game in HD, it would be an instant hit all over again! prunyuu~~
Title: Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
Post by: Flame on January 25, 2012, 03:24:21 PM
For sure. All that ever hold the game back was the GBA limitations. Specifically in music. The Graphics were very GBA, but not bad at all.