Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [ID] Topic: Castlevania: Umbra of Sorrow (1999 Fan Project)  (Read 449866 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Shiroi Koumori

  • Guardian of the Night
  • Global Moderator
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 4667
  • Gender: Female
  • Birth, Death and Rebirth... Everything is a cycle.
  • Awards 2018-06 Sprite Contest Runner-Up 2015-04- Sprite Contest Silver Permanent Resident: Seems to always be around to post/reply. The Unfazed: Never loses his/her calm, even in the most heated arguments.
    • My DeviantArt Page
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (PS1/SS)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania: Umbra of Sorrow (Fan Project)
« Reply #75 on: March 15, 2015, 07:08:39 AM »
0
I left for a week and got back to this!
Awesome job theplottwist.
I'm so excited for this.

Offline piscesdreams

  • Legendary Hunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 559
  • ...
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania: Umbra of Sorrow (Fan Project)
« Reply #76 on: March 15, 2015, 07:42:39 AM »
0
For the sake of argument, I have never understood why fan games are so damning. If they are kept as not for profit, then its just like a super mega fan art. Which no company says "dont draw our characters".

But Chernabogue has a very excellent point. If it is mostly original assets, they may leave you alone.

Offline Dracula9

  • That One Guy
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2417
  • Gender: Male
  • Blargh
  • Awards 2015-01-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-12-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-11-November FinalBoss Sprite Contest 2nd Place Winner A great musician and composer of various melodies both original and game-based. 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania: Umbra of Sorrow (Fan Project)
« Reply #77 on: March 15, 2015, 10:11:12 AM »
0
My response to Dracula9 wasn't meant as a personal  attack on you thePlottwist.

Please understand, I am not trying to say that you aren't capable of making original games. I am trying to tell you that the idea of making a fan game is bad. I view making an original game as a better plan because it means you will have ownership of the game. You don't have to worry about getting a cease and desist and you could even kickstart your project.  Realistically you cannot expect to use somebody else's IP without their permission.

It's not always about ownership or money or kickstarters, you know. Some things are a labor of love.

Your original post calling your logic a "no-brainer," that your suggestion is "better" and that he shouldn't "make a Castlevania game" sure do come off as a personal attack. This is to say nothing of the heavily sarcastic tone used when you said
Quote
Put in loads of hard work to make a game that uses somebody else's IP without their permission and try and keep it as low key as possible so you don't get given a cease and desist-  It IS their IP, You'd do the same afterall.

and then shifted into a more respectful tone with
Quote
Make your own original game in the spirit of Castlevania that belongs to YOU. If you make your own game you don't have to hide it and you can have the open support of Castlevania fans who are interested in a game that follows in the same spirit.

So that entire post, whether intentional or not, does a pretty good job at tearing down plot's way of doing things while elevating your own as if they're superior.


A general rule of thumb, if you have to end anything you say with "but that's just my opinion" and mean it seriously, more often than not you're acting like a douchebag. We KNOW it's your opinion, but finding new ways to say "your game is bad because it's not original because I say so and the legal hoops to jump through are obviously so much worse than filing copyright and IP claim rights your original stuff" isn't gonna change anything.

You've said your peace and plot immediately shot it down. Obviously you're not changing his mind, so while you're more than free to disagree with his methods, pushing the envelope isn't necessary and honestly is a waste of time.


Trøllabundin eri eg, inn í hjartarót.

Offline X

  • Xenocide
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 9361
  • Gender: Male
  • Awards SuperOld Dungeonite: Members who have been around since the oldOLD days. The Unfazed: Never loses his/her calm, even in the most heated arguments. The Retro Gamer: Has a heated passion for the oldschool VG Titles.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania: Umbra of Sorrow (Fan Project)
« Reply #78 on: March 15, 2015, 10:58:01 AM »
0
Quote
All the talk of keeping things under the radar  and only releasing it to a small few seems like a poor choice compared to the freedom afforded by making a game that isn't a fan game.

No, there's a very good reason why I suggested this course of action. Many a fangames have been stopped during their beta stages because the game companies found out and saw that the games in question and the people who made them were doing a much better job then the company itself. Take a look at the Streets of Rage remake as a good example. Granted they managed to finish their game before receiving the C&D order from SEGA, but they still got it anyways. By theplottwist keeping his work under the radar, and only letting a small few he trusts beta test his game so that he can finish it will allow him to avoid (for the most part) a C&D during early development. When the game is finished then he will release it on public domain and then we'll find out whether or not Konami gives their two cents about it.

Quote
For the sake of argument, I have never understood why fan games are so damning. If they are kept as not for profit, then its just like a super mega fan art.

Yeah I don't get this either. A fan project is in tribute to the game and the company who made the product. It shows the company that their product means a lot to the fans and that their labor and time was not wasted in making the game. The only time a C&D order should ever be needed or nesissary is when the person or persons in question are selling their fanwork for profit and not giving the company any of the revenue made.
"Spirituality is God's gift to humanity...
Religion is Man's flawed interpretation of Spirituality given back to humanity..."

Offline darkmanx_429

  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2112
  • Gender: Male
  • Awards Hack Master makes creations out of CV parts. (S)he makes Dr. Frankenstein proud.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania III: Dracula's Curse (NES)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania: Umbra of Sorrow (Fan Project)
« Reply #79 on: March 15, 2015, 11:23:51 AM »
0
Naw, let's. What's everyone's main issue with Lords? It uses the CV name and doesn't entirely fit the bill. Lords by itself is a good game. You're forgetting I'm one of the few here who actually very much enjoys Lords.

It's perfectly fine to have issue with what a company releases, but demonizing them for it isn't fair. You cannot treat hundreds of employees like conniving bastards because you didn't get your way. See previous comment about employees totally waking up wondering how to piss the fans off that day.

Yeah, the execs do make the major decisions. They make decisions like, "hey, let's make a Castlevania reboot!" and then hand it off to the studios, with progress checks being a given. By your logic, we should be blaming Satoshi Sakamoto for the flaws in Lords of Shadow, and let Alvarez off the hook.

Because, after all, the execs are the one who make all those decisions, right?

But I'll use Capcom examples for accuracy.

Why are they milking Street Fighter and various other fighters for everything they're worth? Simple, they know people will buy for the name alone, and it doesn't take much extra work when you have so many engines already good to go. It's a safe path to take, even though it is one of staleness and blandness. But it's certainly not out of hostility towards the fanbase. Do you seriously believe the guys in charge have the time to sit around a table in a dark room plotting and scheming the downfall of their fans? Be realistic. Only the Koch brothers and Dick Cheney do that.

There's also various extenuating circumstances and outside influences to consider. There was the Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami in Japan back in 2011, which cannot have helped Capcom or their marketing and sales quota, to say nothing of employees who likely suffered varying degrees of misfortune from the disasters.

Am I saying what they're doing is sensible? No, but it's certainly nothing to condemn hundreds and thousands of employees worldwide over. I'm pretty sure the sales rep accountants and janitors don't give a shit, but they're included in your generalized bashing of the company at large (PUT THE LIST DOWN ARYA STARK). Obviously it would be great if they (meaning any gaming corporation who does this sort of thing, not just Capcom) banded together, bided their time, and made an outstanding project and drew the fanbase all back together again.

But that's unrealistic, because economic and social factors dictate a lot of this shit, and the fanbases never agree on fucking anything because everyone's right and everyone else is wrong. The companies are not at our beck and call, nice though that may be. They release, we buy, and unless a game completely fucking bombs and loses them a good chunk of money, they're gonna keep doing what they're doing.

Why? Because it's safe and low-cost to do. A lot of the shit the fanbases foam at the mouths over are labor-intensive as hell, and clearly the overarching companies don't feel the risk is worth it. It isn't like any of us can change their minds (because after all, it's not like we're total experts on the market, more so from their perspective, so why the hell we act like it is beyond me).

And I've disliked every Resident Evil movie. Even the first one, Milia Jovovich bath scene notwithstanding. ;)
The films spend way too much damn time cataloging the goddamn T-Virus and barely focus on anything else. I'd like to see a movie about RE4. Or an RE2 adaptation. Or an "Ada wrecking everyone else's shit as usual" film. Or anything that's not Milia and fucking Wesker that ends in yet another stalemate cliffhanger that obviously leads into another subpar sequel.

The movies don't even try and hit the horror note anymore, and IMO haven't done it well since the very first one (though to me, the horror elements of the first RE movie are more body-horror and medical-horror than the survival-horror and slower pacing seen throughout the games). They found out that HEY LET'S MAKE THIS JUST ANOTHER GENERIC ACTION SERIES WITH ZOMBIES AND HOT CHICKS sells better for exactly those reasons, and anyone who hasn't played the games won't know any better as far as how vastly different the two are goes. Not my cup of tea. My problem with the RE movies is the exact same problem people have with LoS; it uses an established name and, in my opinion, utterly fails to live up to that name's standard. Only difference, Lords (the first one at least) was actually pretty good on its own, where I still think the RE movies are shit.

But I played the games long before I saw the movies, and I'm a very avid supporter of good horror pacing and atmosphere, so I'm admittedly more than a little biased against the action flicks pretending to be horror flicks.

Thanks for the lesson about how business and economics work D9, I didn't know that. (Insert Sarcasm.) :rollseyes:

No one is mentioning about treating every employee from Capcom like conniving b@stards or anything like that. That's is why I mentioned the executives. It's not so black and white, but yes the executives have alot of influence on how a project shapes out. You mentioned it yourself .The executives periodically show up at a studio and usually the Producer and his associates show them how their milestones are shaping up among other things.


Why are they milking Street Fighter and various other fighters for everything they're worth? Simple, they know people will buy for the name alone, and it doesn't take much extra work when you have so many engines already good to go. It's a safe path to take, even though it is one of staleness and blandness.

One of the many things wrong in the game industry right now, but not for the execs. They are too busy getting their extra bonuses and buying homes and sh!t..everyone in the trenches, like the Artists,  are just getting the scraps.


But that's unrealistic, because economic and social factors dictate a lot of this shit, and the fanbases never agree on fucking anything because everyone's right and everyone else is wrong. The companies are not at our beck and call, nice though that may be. They release, we buy, and unless a game completely fucking bombs and loses them a good chunk of money, they're gonna keep doing what they're doing.

God, help you if you have an opinion on something you are invested in. You are right they release, we buy, and therefore I don't have to support whatever iteration of Street Fighter 2 they want to be on nor buy it.

And I liked Lords of Shadow as well but in the same token, I bought the special edition of those games and they've only gotten a once play-through.


« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 11:25:37 AM by darkmanx_429 »

Vamprotector Lead Creator and Producer

Offline piscesdreams

  • Legendary Hunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 559
  • ...
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania: Umbra of Sorrow (Fan Project)
« Reply #80 on: March 15, 2015, 11:38:56 AM »
+1
To move things back on topic, plottwist, I say go for it. Your art is great, you have a lot attention to detail. If you can form a good team and want to make a game, I think it could be a home run. Or if you can program the game yourself, it is more work but still rewarding.

I considered a DCW fangame myself, but I decided since Konami C&D'd me I would go original content but familiar in spirit with Anathema, so Konami could not feasibly threaten me. That was also part of the reason I never finished Bloodstorm.

If you want to make a game, or fiction or whatever you decide, make your vision fully realized and dont worry about an order to stop your project. If you do make a game, just dont make betas publicly available and keep it kind of under wraps and you should be fine.

Offline Aelfwine

  • Hunter in Training
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Only at the Castle Gate...
  • Awards 2014-12-Quarterly 3D Contest 2nd Place Award
    • Awards
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania: Umbra of Sorrow (Fan Project)
« Reply #81 on: March 15, 2015, 05:16:17 PM »
0

No, there's a very good reason why I suggested this course of action. Many a fangames have been stopped during their beta stages

That's exactly why I said it's a bad idea and why the decision to make a fan game or a game inspired by a game you love is a no-brainer! That risk is entirely gone if you make your own game!

You know what the most ridiculous thing is?
this:

NOTE: ALL CONTENT CREATED FOR THIS PROJECT IS NOT OPEN TO BE USED IN ANY OTHER PROJECT UNLESS THEIR RESPECTIVE CREATORS GIVE YOU PERSONAL PERMISSION AND ARE CREDITED BACK ON YOUR PROJECT! THIS INCLUDES SPRITES, STORY, MUSIC, ARTWORK AND (POSSIBLY) PROGRAMMING.

You know where this comes from? It's opening lines of this thread.
Apparently thPlottwists work has the right to protection but Konami is free game.

Can you say "Double Standard"?


Offline Dracula9

  • That One Guy
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2417
  • Gender: Male
  • Blargh
  • Awards 2015-01-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-12-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-11-November FinalBoss Sprite Contest 2nd Place Winner A great musician and composer of various melodies both original and game-based. 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania: Umbra of Sorrow (Fan Project)
« Reply #82 on: March 15, 2015, 06:09:56 PM »
+3
Considering the assets and resources will be almost entirely original, he's more than entitled to make that claim. Especially since someone JUST stole and used his Dracula endboss sprite without permission, credit, or even acknowledgement of plot as the creator. The same goes for the music, since Chern's doing original works himself.

Even if he wound up using existing Konami resources, it's a very simple thing to put "Konami" under the appropriate areas in the credits, as well as a final "Credit and Special Thanks to Konami for the Castlevania series" at the end.

There is no double standard. Stop trying to salvage a moot point.


Trøllabundin eri eg, inn í hjartarót.

Offline Aelfwine

  • Hunter in Training
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Only at the Castle Gate...
  • Awards 2014-12-Quarterly 3D Contest 2nd Place Award
    • Awards
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania: Umbra of Sorrow (Fan Project)
« Reply #83 on: March 15, 2015, 06:25:00 PM »
0
Considering the assets and resources will be almost entirely original, he's more than entitled to make that claim. Especially since someone JUST stole and used his Dracula endboss sprite without permission, credit, or even acknowledgement of plot as the creator. The same goes for the music, since Chern's doing original works himself.

Even if he wound up using existing Konami resources, it's a very simple thing to put "Konami" under the appropriate areas in the credits, as well as a final "Credit and Special Thanks to Konami for the Castlevania series" at the end.

There is no double standard. Stop trying to salvage a moot point.

So then thePlottwist has already obtained personal permission from the copyright holders of Castlevania then?
Last time I checked they were giving cease and desists to people using their intellectual property without their permission.


Offline Dracula9

  • That One Guy
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2417
  • Gender: Male
  • Blargh
  • Awards 2015-01-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-12-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-11-November FinalBoss Sprite Contest 2nd Place Winner A great musician and composer of various melodies both original and game-based. 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania: Umbra of Sorrow (Fan Project)
« Reply #84 on: March 15, 2015, 07:08:10 PM »
0
Man, you just can't wrap your head around the point, can you?

Surely you've heard of the Fair Use doctrine.


Trøllabundin eri eg, inn í hjartarót.

Offline Aelfwine

  • Hunter in Training
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Only at the Castle Gate...
  • Awards 2014-12-Quarterly 3D Contest 2nd Place Award
    • Awards
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania: Umbra of Sorrow (Fan Project)
« Reply #85 on: March 15, 2015, 07:25:06 PM »
0
If it's all fine under fair use why did piscesdreams get a cease and desist?

I Know, Why don't you go ask Konami and let us all know what their response is.
I'm sure they'll agree with you, right?

Offline theplottwist

  • Canon Literalist
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1848
  • プロットツイスト君
  • Awards 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place 2017-07-Sprite Contest 2nd PLace 2016-09-Sprite Contest First Place 2015 - Christmas Award First Place 2015 - Halloween Sprite Contest - Second Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania Adventure Rebirth (Wii)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania: Umbra of Sorrow (Fan Project)
« Reply #86 on: March 15, 2015, 07:32:09 PM »
0
That's exactly why I said it's a bad idea and why the decision to make a fan game or a game inspired by a game you love is a no-brainer! That risk is entirely gone if you make your own game!

You know what the most ridiculous thing is?
this:

NOTE: ALL CONTENT CREATED FOR THIS PROJECT IS NOT OPEN TO BE USED IN ANY OTHER PROJECT UNLESS THEIR RESPECTIVE CREATORS GIVE YOU PERSONAL PERMISSION AND ARE CREDITED BACK ON YOUR PROJECT! THIS INCLUDES SPRITES, STORY, MUSIC, ARTWORK AND (POSSIBLY) PROGRAMMING.

You know where this comes from? It's opening lines of this thread.
Apparently thPlottwists work has the right to protection but Konami is free game.

Can you say "Double Standard"?


If it's all fine under fair use why did piscesdreams get a cease and desist?

I Know, Why don't you go ask Konami and let us all know what their response is.
I'm sure they'll agree with you, right?

I want to know you standpoint on fanart (including fanmusic and fanfiction). Above this, I want to know your standpoint on original artwork working as a parody of the originals. Care to elaborate?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 07:37:59 PM by theplottwist »
The mastermind behind the "Umbra of Sorrow" project. But not the only one.

Offline Dracula9

  • That One Guy
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2417
  • Gender: Male
  • Blargh
  • Awards 2015-01-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-12-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-11-November FinalBoss Sprite Contest 2nd Place Winner A great musician and composer of various melodies both original and game-based. 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania: Umbra of Sorrow (Fan Project)
« Reply #87 on: March 15, 2015, 07:36:25 PM »
+1
It's up to them whether or not to claim copyright violation. Fair Use is fine and dandy but they can still make that call at their discretion.

That's not what I'm arguing. We cannot control what Konami says or does, but at the same time lurking in the dark and cowering at potential shutdowns isn't a good option either.

Some things are worth taking risks for, and for plot this is one of those things.

But it's clear you're either too dense or too stubborn to grasp the notion that some people are completely fine working against those risks for the sake of doing what they enjoy. THe line is drawn at trying to claim copyright where none exists or attempting to monetize, neither of which plot is doing.

Yes, he said THIS SHIT'S MINE PLEASE DON'T STEAL, but he's not actually suggesting he OWNS the copyright on the name or characters; rather, he's putting his foot down on the work that's been done. Even if the content isn't originally theirs, and artist can still say "hey, I made this, don't be a fucking asshole and steal it, alright?" and be within, to a degree, their legal right.

There's a world of difference between copyright claim and creative claim, and you don't seem to be understanding that.


Trøllabundin eri eg, inn í hjartarót.

Offline Aelfwine

  • Hunter in Training
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Only at the Castle Gate...
  • Awards 2014-12-Quarterly 3D Contest 2nd Place Award
    • Awards
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania: Umbra of Sorrow (Fan Project)
« Reply #88 on: March 15, 2015, 08:07:32 PM »
0
Quote
We cannot control what Konami says or does, but at the same time lurking in the dark and cowering at potential shutdowns isn't a good option either

THIS is why I said creating an original game is a BETTER PLAN. No need to cower  in the darkness, you can express your love freely without fear.

Quote
Yes, he said THIS SHIT'S MINE PLEASE DON'T STEAL, but he's not actually suggesting he OWNS the copyright on the name or characters; rather, he's putting his foot down on the work that's been done. Even if the content isn't originally theirs, and artist can still say "hey, I made this, don't be a fucking asshole and steal it, alright?" and be within, to a degree, their legal right.

This is the double standard. Theplottwist expects other people to have the moral decency not to use his work without his permission. Yet that standard doesn't seem to apply to himself when it comes to Konami. If you bother to actually ask them they will likely respond in a similar way to thePlottwist:
This stuff is ours, please don't use it.

Offline VladCT

  • Dark Lord of Wallachia
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2005
  • Gender: Male
  • The night is still young...
  • Awards 2015-01-Sprite Contest Gold Permanent Resident: Seems to always be around to post/reply. The Retro Gamer: Has a heated passion for the oldschool VG Titles.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania Bloodlines (Genesis)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania: Umbra of Sorrow (Fan Project)
« Reply #89 on: March 15, 2015, 08:28:19 PM »
0
You're really starting to fall into argumentum ad nauseam here; why are you so desperately against this project in particular?
It is precisely because it never cared, that people do care.  It's something which it's lacking, because that which it has, it has lackluster of.
^^
You are now reading this in Robert Belgrade's voice.

Then Lords of Shadow 2 just takes a big, semi-solid, smelly, pea-green dump all over everything.

Tags: 1999 Awes 
 

anything