Topic: DOS ruined a perfectly good chance at a symbolic final boss battle

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Oh gods I'm bringing up a topic I discussed [briefly] a year ago.

Menace, being a form taken by all the merged evil souls that Dmitri had absorbed with his duplicated Power of Dominance, would have made more storytelling sense assuming the shape of a ghost of Dracula.

Not actual Dracula.

Just a ghostly image of him. Who also hits pretty hard.

Like this guy.



My logic is that, as Menace is made by essentially locking the souls of evil monsters which would be serving the Dark Lord (if one currently existed) in a box until they merge and explode back out, from a pure relevancy-to-Soma's-character-arc viewpoint, it would have made symbolic sense for Menace to be in the shape of the previous Dark Lord. It could have been justified in all sorts of ways by the development team.
No matter how one slices it, a giant corpse monster doesn't really represent anything. It just sort of is.
I would have preferred that Soma faced something more symbolic of what he's fighting every day to not be.

Soma fights a giant corpse monster as his final "fuck you" at being the Dark Lord? Really Konami? Why not have him fight the leftover residue/image of Dracula, which would make all the sense in the world given that the fact that he's Dracula's reincarnation is brought up practically every other conversation that he's a part of?

It worked well enough for Juste's story, which had 1000% less narrative symbolism behind it.

[Dracula9]

the reason menace doesn't take the form of dracula is because dracula's soul isn't involved, it's in soma at the time

menace is an ugly frankenstein because it's all the shit dmitrii absorbed

wraith takes the form of dracula because it's literally his remains that are involved

dmitrii isn't anything relating to dracula beyond his capacity to take dracula's job--he isn't even remotely related to the man himself like soma is, so it actually wouldn't make much sense thematically for menace to take the form of something unrelated to it

hell even if soma was the one menace popped out of it still wouldn't make sense for it to look like dracula, since dracula isn't really dracula anymore and even when soma goes evil in the bad endings he doesn't "look" like dracula in any real aesthetic capacity

it would be hella cool though visually, if nothing else

[theplottwist]

I would argue that using Dracula's image in this battle would actually ruin the symbolism.

DoS is about how "anyone can be the Dark Lord (if they try hard enough)". Dmitri's second to last spiel is about that, how he figured out that the notion of Dark Lord Candidates is complete bullshit (and this section is interesting in that it shows how many people didn't get the plot of DoS).

Having Dracula show up in any form would be against the story told so far, methinks.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

the reason menace doesn't take the form of dracula is because dracula's soul isn't involved, it's in soma at the time

menace is an ugly frankenstein because it's all the shit dmitrii absorbed

wraith takes the form of dracula because it's literally his remains that are involved

dmitrii isn't anything relating to dracula beyond his capacity to take dracula's job--he isn't even remotely related to the man himself like soma is, so it actually wouldn't make much sense thematically for menace to take the form of something unrelated to it

hell even if soma was the one menace popped out of it still wouldn't make sense for it to look like dracula, since dracula isn't really dracula anymore and even when soma goes evil in the bad endings he doesn't "look" like dracula in any real aesthetic capacity

it would be hella cool though visually, if nothing else

Well, we know all that because of the end decisions the designers went with.

I'm questioning why they went with those decisions at all.

I mean, having Soma fight a Wraith of Dracula as his last battle makes so much sense it's stupid that they missed it.
And had they done that, we could be justifying why they didn't go with the giant corpse monster route instead (we wouldn't actually, but we could).
Again, from a storyteller's (oh that word!) perspective, a Corpse Monster may fit the setting, but it doesn't actually mean anything special. A giant puppet monster would have made more thematic sense (you could say it symbolized Soma never feeling fully in control of his destiny or whatever) but they also used that idea far earlier in the game (and used it well). Having Soma finally face the vision of Dracula would have given his narrative cycle completion: Dracula's reincarnation coming face to face with what it used to be, and could be again, and rejecting it in favor of being something better. It would have closed the loop entirely. What began in Lament of Innocence would have finally concluded. Critics might have derided the decision as a cheap shoehorned way to get Dracula in the game, but that's critics for you.

A giant Corpse Monster, thematically, just says "this thing is big and evil. Obviously. Hit it until it dies, m'kaaaaay?"

[Dracula9]

I mean, having Soma fight a Wraith of Dracula as his last battle makes so much sense it's stupid that they missed it.

except it doesn't make sense

dracula's dead, soul reincarnated into soma as a new being

where exactly is the room for soma to fight the ghost of a dude that doesn't even exist anymore? is soma gonna just look himself in a big mirror and punch the mirror, because dracula is soma now

A giant Corpse Monster, thematically, just says "this thing is big and evil. Obviously. Hit it until it dies, m'kaaaaay?"

you mean the giant corpse monster that is a manifest epitome of how dominance as a power can go very very wrong, formed from that power's misuse by someone powerhungry but too weakwilled to handle it fully, squaring off against the kid whose entire character arc has been "you're dracula, but you have the choice to not be dracula" and has spent two whole games fighting monsters and using dominance to use their souls as weapons to further his fight for humanity and goodness, and now has to fight against the ultimate representation of everything his power has the potential to become if he lets it, because even though dracula himself is gone his power still exists and that power has the potential to wreak havoc all over again even if its original user is dead and gone from the world?

that giant corpse monster?

[Lumi Kløvstad]

except it doesn't make sense

dracula's dead, soul reincarnated into soma as a new being

where exactly is the room for soma to fight the ghost of a dude that doesn't even exist anymore? is soma gonna just look himself in a big mirror and punch the mirror, because dracula is soma now

you mean the giant corpse monster that is a manifest epitome of how dominance as a power can go very very wrong, formed from that power's misuse by someone powerhungry but too weakwilled to handle it fully, squaring off against the kid whose entire character arc has been "you're dracula, but you have the choice to not be dracula" and has spent two whole games fighting monsters and using dominance to use their souls as weapons to further his fight for humanity and goodness, and now has to fight against the ultimate representation of everything his power has the potential to become if he lets it, because even though dracula himself is gone his power still exists and that power has the potential to wreak havoc all over again even if its original user is dead and gone from the world?

that giant corpse monster?

Yup. THAT giant corpse monster.

What they accomplished with it is nowhere as poignant or meaningful as what they could have done instead, and the notion that Dracula was such a potent force of nature that bits and pieces of his prior image linger on like impressions in the skin of the world itself would be perfectly in line with established canon.

Dracula may not exist anymore (well, not as anything other than a Schroedinger's Half-Possibility at the time), but again, a skilled writer could have justified it a hundred ways from Sunday because that's what they're paid to do for a living and this was a time where Konami still had a bunch of those people handy.

Also this thread turned into a Watsonian vs Doylist argument REALLY fast. IT'S A NEW RECORD!! XD

I'm not trying to insinuate that any of your observations are off the mark or wrong, but it seems like you're using (predominantly) in-universe logic to examine a real world production decision while I am trying to do the opposite. Not quite sure where the middle ground is on that.

They could have easily had a boss fight with Dmitrii. They could have easily had a [insert 11th hour plot device here] kill Dmitrii and take the form of Dracula because [insert reasons that would be acceptable in a video game here]. But they didn't. They went with something that is, in video game design terms, incredibly boring and generic that looks like they took every Doom Monster and stuck them in a bad teleporter accident. Why didn't Menace look more unique? It would have kept the meaning, but been far more memorable and appropriate, which is the crux of the issue being discussed.

You've argued it does symbolize stuff and it's a good analysis. I just think it's a bad writing decision that we now have to justify instead of going with something that would have been equally, if not more so, appropriate to the story being told.

[Dracula9]

maybe but you're arguing "this isn't thematically doing anything at all, it should be this instead", and the "instead" i've proven to be nonsense watsonially and the supposedly lacking symbolism to achieve exactly what its narrative means to tell

i don't see where doylism plays into that at all

[aensland]

Dawn of Sorrow was a bland and dull game. It has the final boss it deserves.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Dawn of Sorrow was a bland and dull game. It has the final boss it deserves.

Gonna upvote that just because fandom justice.

[Dracula9]

They could have easily had a boss fight with Dmitrii. They could have easily had a [insert 11th hour plot device here] kill Dmitrii and take the form of Dracula because [insert reasons that would be acceptable in a video game here]. But they didn't. They went with something that is, in video game design terms, incredibly boring and generic that looks like they took every Doom Monster and stuck them in a bad teleporter accident. Why didn't Menace look more unique? It would have kept the meaning, but been far more memorable.

You've argued it does symbolize stuff and it's a good analysis. I just think it's a bad writing decision that we now have to justify instead of going with something that would have been equally, if not more so, appropriate to the story being told.

i really think you're misusing/confusing watson/doyle here, because that's NOT what this even remotely looks like

you say you're trying to argue doyle, but you keep saying things like "but MY idea would be more appropriate to the STORY" and "they could have easily had it be THIS thing because it makes more thematic sense to the STORY"

where is this doylist argument you're saying you're representing, because all i'm seeing is watsonian rhetoric

i can't make proper concessions towards doylism when there's none to be found

[X]

I'd have to agree with the others here. Having Dracula reappear in this game for Soma to fight wouldn't work considering. Soma is Dracula. Dracula's original body was totally destroyed in the 1999 battle. There aren't even any of Dracula's remains 'remaining' after the fact. Dmitrii Did copy the power of dominance and view Soma's past lives, but that is all he could do. He can't copy the DNA of a former life that no longer exists as the DNA itself no longer exists. Having the corps monster does kinda make sense to me as it represents what happens when someone who's blinded by their thirst for power, bites off more then they can chew. Dmitrii was a very arrogant man and this blinded him to a very obvious detail. Soma is the only one to succeed with the power of dominance because it was he himself that willed it so. Dmitrii just did a copy/paste. He didn't learn the knowledge for himself, and thus we now have a shadow of a man whom is nothing more then an out of control amalgamation of monsters with a primal mentality; no real conscious thought. I get what you're saying Lumi Kløvstad, that more could have been done, and I can agree with that. DoS left a lot to be desired. But fighting Dracula just wouldn't work in this regard.

[theplottwist]

I'd have to agree with the others here. Having Dracula reappear in this game for Soma to fight wouldn't work considering. Soma is Dracula. Dracula's original body was totally destroyed in the 1999 battle.

Just wanted to respond that I'm against that more because of theme reasons than because of mechanical ones.

Soma fighting a shadow of Dracula is perfectly reasonable depending on what pieces of lore we use. For example: If Celia were trying to "reincarnate the castle" to break the eclipse seal, Dracula fighting Soma is a really easy leap from there: The castle remembers Trevor, therefore it remembers Dracula. A mere MEMORY of Dracula is enough to make him real, and Soma's own soul remembers what it's like to be Dracula. Any plot device would work to make that memory real, to be honest, and that's just one of a million ways I can think it would be plausible.

Problem is: Theme. Soma already dealt with his destiny as "Dracula". I don't think there is a good reason to make him fight Dracula as a "final boss" when he has already done that in Aria (as Dracula's evil intention). The way Dawn's plotline is setup doesn't allow for much "Dracula" in my head.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

i really think you're misusing/confusing watson/doyle here, because that's NOT what this even remotely looks like

you say you're trying to argue doyle, but you keep saying things like "but MY idea would be more appropriate to the STORY" and "they could have easily had it be THIS thing because it makes more thematic sense to the STORY"

where is this doylist argument you're saying you're representing, because all i'm seeing is watsonian rhetoric

*inhales*

So, Soma is going to this big, epic, final confrontation (and in scale, it is that).

I want to know how that development meeting with Iga went. How they arrived at the design decisions they made, because they are generic especially in light of the Graham fight in Aria. Soma walks in, Dmitrii has a Reactor Overload, suffers a Warp Core Breach (OF THE SOUL!!) and explodes into this giant... corpse. It's a very pretty corpse, but a corpse it remains.

The circumstances behind mean a lot as you've mentioned, but the imagery at hand could have been in almost any video game that shared half a genre. In that sense, as visually presented, it's not a good boss for Castlevania. Consider the real world character writing decisions made in Graham's second form in Aria, where writing and design intersect perfectly. Graham's Dark Lord form perfectly suited him: a perversion of everything he outwardly claimed to be, with a white color scheme soiled by blood and entrails, and images of beautifully mutilated angels. Everything lurking in the heart of the supposed holy man laid bare. It's an example of art backing up what the writers have already established about the character. Clearly there was communication between the writers and the artist, or maybe the artist just did a great job of reading the script and adjusting their design accordingly -- I doubt we'll ever know which happened.

I have a tough time seeing Menace's artwork serving as a capstone to Soma's story. Dmitrii's face does appear as a weak point on Menace (and that's something we can recreationally analyze and overanalyze for months if not years if we wanted) so it makes kind of sense as a logical end for HIM and everything he's become (good writing and design intersection, that): nothing but an assortment of various monstrous traits and people he's surrounded himself with. But as Dawn represents the endpoint of Soma'sjourney and, in a way, the repetition of the cycle of resurrection, it feels like Menace could have been so much more than it was as an unremarkable design for a unremarkable boss at the end of what would later turn out to be a unremarkable game.

I guess what I'm asking is why didn't Iga's team unify the two things? Why not have a final boss that represents Dominance gone amok, and also been a more uniquely designed dark mirror for Soma?

They'd done a pretty good job up until then building up Dmitrii as a foil and a mirror for Soma, from their color choices (which are flipped versions of each other), their hairstyles (which are rather similar) to Dmitrii's personality taking up the other extreme of Soma (Soma being a balanced personality, Dario being rude and passionate, and Dmitrii being polite and calm), to Dmitrii's power (he's LITERALLY a dark mirror for other people). Why not have Menace more uniquely and memorably embody everything Soma feared becoming with a design that echoed Dracula, or even Chaos from the previous game? Dmitrii wanted to become the next Dracula, so Menace taking a similar form to that could have been justified that way.

In the end, a pile of monster bodies just seems uninspired considering what they were going for. It's what an eight year old would have come up with, and we've had to argue around that decision ever since.

There are so many alternate designs that could have been used that would have had more impact. My original comment was just about a Dracula ghost, but that hardly does the moment complete justice now that I've had time to think about what it could have looked like that had meaning for Dmitrii and Soma together (in my head I'm seeing lots of mirror and duality motifs but I'll spare you the list).

I suppose the end reason they didn't go with that was because they'd already gone with that in Harmony and didn't want to try it a second time.

We can talk for ages about Dmitrii and Menace in canonical terms, but I'm pretty sure that the ultimate reason that led to all of it was that Iga didn't want to look like he was repeating himself. Maybe it was a late production decision and that's why the design was so generic. I dunno.

But it neither inspires awe, wonder, or a sense of the Castlevania cycle finally ending.

Of course, a game which DID do that... was Aria of Sorrow.

And that's Doylist point number 2: Aria was pretty clearly meant to be the end of everything. The It Moment at the end of all things. Dawn is essentially "Contractual Obligation: The Game (Castlevania Edition)".

Which actually explains a hell of a lot, just having realized that.

Just wanted to respond that I'm against that more because of theme reasons than because of mechanical ones.

Soma fighting a shadow of Dracula is perfectly reasonable depending on what pieces of lore we use. For example: If Celia were trying to "reincarnate the castle" to break the eclipse seal, Dracula fighting Soma is a really easy leap from there: The castle remembers Trevor, therefore it remembers Dracula. A mere MEMORY of Dracula is enough to make him real, and Soma's own soul remembers what it's like to be Dracula. Any plot device would work to make that memory real, to be honest, and that's just one of a million ways I can think it would be plausible.

Problem is: Theme. Soma already dealt with his destiny as "Dracula". I don't think there is a good reason to make him fight Dracula as a "final boss" when he has already done that in Aria (as Dracula's evil intention). The way Dawn's plotline is setup doesn't allow for much "Dracula" in my head.

And having written my above comment, I have come to agree with ALL OF THIS.

[theplottwist]

There are so many alternate designs that could have been used that would have had more impact. My original comment was just about a Dracula ghost, but that hardly does the moment complete justice now that I've had time to think about what it could have looked like that had meaning for Dmitrii and Soma together (in my head I'm seeing lots of mirror and duality motifs but I'll spare you the list).

And it's not just you: Dmitri is really called "Dmitri the Mirror". This is a lore tidbit that went NO FUCKING WHERE. I mean, he is called that because he can copy your powers, but they could have stretched that to its extremes to make up for some great ideas.

Mind you that although I think "Dracula" doesn't work, I'm not satisfied by Menace either. Despite there being an argument for Menace, he really is very unremarkable (basically ginormous Golem). We could have had other stuff reflected from Soma as final boss. Oh well;

[Zuljaras]

I don't get the whole hate of DoS. It is just another Soma adventure. What is so wrong about that.

I guess I am just too big of a Castlevania fan and the only "CV" games that I hate are the slot machines and the kid Dracula. All other games are just so perfect for me.