Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Sorrow on December 29, 2013, 04:39:24 PM
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I was curious, as someone who hasn't played every Castlevania, as to what everyone thought each CANON Belmont (and their descendants) would be most proficient at and overall the strongest Belmont in each area.
Let's assume each and every Belmont was in a Castlevania game together and the things EVERY Belmont (or whip user if you will) could do was back-dash, slide, whip in all 8 directions, whip on the stairs, spin the whip and jump/crouch whip in the same amount of directions. But we know some may be more powerful in certain areas, some can swing from the whip, some can use spells and others can use martial arts or flips etcetera.
So I want to know, individually, not only which Belmont can use a certain attack, but also which of them would be the most effective in doing so.
The Whip; who would do the most damage with the whip?
Martial Arts; what martial arts can each do and for those that are shared, who is the strongest user?
An example answer listed in strength order (just an example):
Uppercut: Richter, Jonathon, Julius.
Sub-Weapons; same as above.
Holy Water: Simon, Julius, Richter, Jonathon, Trevor (you get the point).
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I can see Trevor excelling in sheer damage output and Richter in technique/finesse.
Juste would trump them all in magic due to Belnades genes.
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I was curious, as someone who hasn't played every Castlevania, as to what everyone thought each CANON Belmont (and their descendants) would be most proficient at and overall the strongest Belmont in each area.
Let's assume each and every Belmont was in a Castlevania game together and the things EVERY Belmont (or whip user if you will) could do was back-dash, slide, whip in all 8 directions, whip on the stairs, spin the whip and jump/crouch whip in the same amount of directions. But we know some may be more powerful in certain areas, some can swing from the whip, some can use spells and others can use martial arts or flips etcetera.
So I want to know, individually, not only which Belmont can use a certain attack, but also which of them would be the most effective in doing so.
The Whip; who would do the most damage with the whip?
Martial Arts; what martial arts can each do and for those that are shared, who is the strongest user?
An example answer listed in strength order (just an example):
Uppercut: Richter, Jonathon, Julius.
Sub-Weapons; same as above.
Holy Water: Simon, Julius, Richter, Jonathon, Trevor (you get the point)
Individual techniques or other or anything I missed out that some Belmonts can do.
Or perhaps you have a better way of giving an answer to my examples, either way I'm eager to know what everyone thinks.
I'm pretty sure that an equivalent to this topic was already posted, and died with time, but here I go anyway...
The Whip: If you play the games, you will notice that one of the most brutal whip attacks ever delivered comes from the WHip's Memory, or Richter. Four hits and down you go. However, Julius against Soma, who was already bidding on Dracula's power, also packed a brutal punch. I'm inclined to Julius here.
Martial Arts: Again, between Julius and Richter, but more inclined to Julius. I mean, one Dash from Richter can obliterate the majority of monsters with one hit, but Julius can outright avoid confrontation. The best battle is the battle never fought.
Sub-Weapons: Julius hands down. He doesn't have them all, but a single Grand Cross and you're dust.
And in the end, think of a old geezer fighting a young-Dracula-to-be, and saying that he was holding back.
He was holding back, while his Grand Cross crumbled a piece of the castle on the background.
He was holding back. Think about it for a second.
This battle is kind of like the Belmonts against Dracula: A young Belmont at peak power goes against old, recently ressurrected Dracula. On AoS, Young Dracula (Soma), at peak power battles an Old Belmont, recently "ressurrected" (Memory Loss). Now, Julius displayed on his 60' what Richter could not do in his 18!! Julius must be ridiculously powerful, and is my choice of winner. He may not excel at everything, but his sheer endurance would make him win by time.
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individual techniques: Jonathan, since he is well versed in various weapons as he doesn't rely solely on the whip
i would also say Leon could be the most agile, and perhaps the "most persistent"
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Thanks for the replies everyone, but I didn't just mean explain the most powerful in each area of attack, but more a list of top to bottom and who can do what, I think my explanation was bad.
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I think Julius can bend Holy/Spiritual Energy. If he mastered that, he could do Gergoth Kamehameha but alas, he ain't no Avatar.
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I'm pretty sure you can cross swimming off the Abilities List for the whole family.
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What you want is difficult to do. First you'd have to somehow scale damage from game to game and many of them are very dissimilar systems with varying rules. Further, do you include story elements into that? Who do you include as a Belmont? I hear a lot of Jonathan being mentioned. Well, he's not a Belmont. He's a Morris.
So first off who are we comparing? This is who I would include as actual Belmonts:
-Akumajou Saga
--Leon
--Trevor
--Christopher
--Soleiyu
--Simon
--Juste
--Richter
--Julius
-Lords Saga
--Gabriel
--Trevor
--Simon
--Victor
-Others
--Sonia
--Sid
--Desmond
--Zoe
--Delores
--Simon III
Where do you go from there? It's hard to say. Some of these characters aren't in a game at all. Some are non-canon. Some are from different realities with different rules. Comparing them can be difficult because many of their qualities aren't quantifiable. Generally speaking in the original canon the farther in time you go, the more powerful the character is said to be. This is both because of narrative ego and developments in game play. Is Richter really stronger than Simon? Can this be a fair comparison when Simon is shown to have wildly differing abilities from remake to remake? That's really up to you to decide based on your objectives.
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Let's not forget the ancient Belmont ability of doing the backflip! Seriously why don't more Belmonts do this?
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Well, he's not a Belmont. He's a Morris.
Partially true. While his last name is Morris, he's also a Belmont by blood. In terms of abilities I'd have to say to forget about the martial arts aspect or any other form of physical combat. Anyone can learn that kind of fighting style. In order to discern true Belmont abilities you'd have to look at what makes them unique from other people and each other; their inner power. Each Belmont is different in this way. Although most games share the base protagonist design there are some that have power traits unique to them alone (which I'll admit is not a whole lot to name nor is it easy to do).
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I would consider all of these Belmonts in not only blood, but the way the character plays.
--Leon
--Trevor
--Christopher
--Simon
--Juste
--Richter
--John Morris
--Johnathan
--Julius
Soleiyu seems too insignificant to bother with. We know shockingly little and well, Christopher is the main Belmont of the time.
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I always had it in mind Belmonts should be near peak physical condition, mastery of using the whip, a little bit of magic for sub weapons and item crashes, and can, well jump good. Very good.
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Well, I have a theory which I've posted on other threads that can account for why the Belmonts are the top vampire hunters and why they can't swim. It all goes back to LoI when Leon preformed that ritual that turned the WHIP OF ALCHEMY into the VAMPIRE KILLER. It is my belief that being he had to sacrifice someone who was tainted by a vampire and the fact that the whip is bound to the bloodline, the Belmonts staring with Leon are themselves "part vampire" or at least have some vampiric power.
As for the evidence, well they don't seem to be able to swim, which I've already mentioned. I did hear something that stated in CoD even though Trevor was near death after being stabbed by Issac and was saved by Julia, he got up and left the next day. Now that is only something I heard, but if the Belmonts actually recover that fast, it seems to indicate that they are more than human. Being "part vampire" would also explain why they are stronger than other hunters. As for them having "holy powers", I still think that the Belmonts powers are dark in nature (not evil, but dark), but they are wielding the Light/Holy element in their attacks. Also, not being able to swim could evidence as vampires traditionally have issues with water.
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I'll take all that over Alucard siring the bloodline with Sonia any day.
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I'll take all that over Alucard siring the bloodline with Sonia any day.
I didn't like that either. It's just as bad as in MoF where Trevor and Alucard are the same person.
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(Removed)
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As Inccubus said, it would be quite difficult to compile such a list, because quite a few of the games operate under different rules and power scales, the differences being either minor or major.
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What you are asking is a very difficult question for all.
It is like asking people to compile a list of their favorite actors ranked according to their own preferences.
Everyone here is going for the safe route by giving broad answers since we don't want to start another flame war.
I would suggest to just play all the games, via emulator if you can't find the actual games, and do the ranking yourself.
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Let's not forget the ancient Belmont ability of doing the backflip! Seriously why don't more Belmonts do this?
Why not the ancient ability of Strutting oh yeah check out DAT strut
The Belmont Walk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mif5ya4JUy0#)
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Let's not forget the ancient Belmont ability of doing the backflip! Seriously why don't more Belmonts do this?
Cause Richter was the only one trained to do it.
Why not the ancient ability of Strutting oh yeah check out DAT strut
Ah yes. The infamous Belmont strut. Now THAT is a Belmont ability that spans almost the entire series. Although when it comes to thir descendants like Julius Belmont and Johnathan Morris, the strut is sadly lost on them.
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This is a great question. I haven't played a ton of castlevania games (wish I had more time to) but I would say if you had Simon, Christopher (from belmonts revenge NOT adventure) Trevor and juste (only because he's Simons great grandson and I'm a Simon fanboy). I would say you have a good start there.
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I suppose the best way to do this would be to give each Belmont a set of, say, six stats.
Then, use the abilities they use in their games to determine the stat's proficiency.
Lastly, for balance, we make sure that no character can have more points total than any other character.
So let's make that pool... say.... 80 points.
Strength, Defense, Speed, Dexterity, Magic, Magic Defense (normally I include Luck but I won't in this case, because as far as I know, there is no 'lucky belmont')
The average "Hero" would have some 12's, and some 13's (us normal humans would have abysmally smaller stats since we can't use magic, can't superjump, etc, and don't have knowledge of martial arts... though a bodybuilder may rank above a "Hero" in strength alone, and an olympic runner may trump a "Hero" in speed or dexterity).
Strength: affects hitting damage
Can be determined by observing the games and seeing how quickly some common foes fall. You can probably also look at games like Judgment to see knockdown moves vs. combo moves.
Defense: affects taking hits
Can be determined by observing the game's artwork to see who has strong armor on, and who has abilities that can boost their defense.
Speed: affects movement speed
Can be determined by observing the games and looking for obvious movements that increase speed. Most early games will have normal (12-13) speed heroes, but someone like Grant Danesti qualifies for higher speed due to his faster walking. In later games, any hero that can both walk and run gets a speed bonus (Nathan, even if with a powerup). Heroes that autorun (Jonathan, Soma) get a bonus as well.
Dexterity: related to evasive moves that can be performed
This one is easy. Look at the abilities that characters can do to make themselves more agile. Grant can climb walls, high-jump, hang on ceilings, and attack while doing all of it. Soma Cruz has a backdash move and I think Julius Belmont do as well. Richter gets a backflip and a moonwalk in Rondo, and a Superjump and a few other moves in SotN.
Magic: affects magical/mystical damage
This is determined by looking at the games' heroes and looking at the kind of magical power they wield. If it is minimal, you get only a small bonus (or maybe none at all if you're purely physical like Grant), but you get a large bonus if it's your main forte (someone like Sypha, Carrie, or Juste get a large bonus, while someone with just an ItemCrash gets a normal bonus).
Magic Defense: affects avoiding/absorbing/nullifying spiritual damage of any kind
This is determined by moves (not relics) that allow you to soak up, heal, or nullify damage done by magic. For example, Alucard's "Dark Metamorphosis" allows him to soak up life from the blood of enemies. Sonia Belmont gets her "Burning Mode" which gives her invulnerability. Richter gets a small bonus because of his Rebound Stone ItemCrash, which grants him his invincibility. Using the Rosary doesn't count.
Now remember, the number of points is equal on each character.
So now we can do something like comparing Simon Belmont (kinda an average hero), to someone like Richter Belmont (quicker, more magic-oriented):
Simon Belmont
Strength
-Swings the whip fast, implying strength
-concept artwork has him really strong
-is able to swing himself using his whip, implying upper body strength
-it seems that he can do a lot of things while wearing Plate Mail, though it's not a full-body suit.
Defense
-it seems that he can do a lot of things while wearing Plate Mail, though it's not a full-body suit.
Speed
-average speed (no bonus)
Dexterity
-swinging from the whip requires some amount of dexterity
-climbing on stairs isn't something normal people can do, nor is jumping off of them (we bust our ass if we do that)
-can moonwalk on stairs
Magic
-aside from the subweapons (does it count?) nothing really.
Magic Defense
-he is able to have an entire game (CVII) while mystically cursed. There's something to be said about that. But no in-game innate ability.
So clearly, Simon does not excel at magic, but he would have more strength, defense, and dexterity than normal. Here are the numbers (remember, average is 12-13 and we have to pool 80 total):
STR = 30
DEF = 20
SPD = 12
DEX = 15
MAG = 0
MGD = 3
Now we look at Richter Belmont:
Strength: Blah blah 'strongest belmont by far' is bullshit and we're throwing it out the window. It is just not a feasible thing to use. Let's look at sheer damage in the games and the character artwork. He doesn't 'appear' all that muscular in Rondo of Blood (concept art or in-game damage)... and certainly doesn't appear muscular in Symphony...
Defense: Richter is not wearing any type of armor. He seems to be wearing a monk's tunic in Rondo of Blood, and a Nobleman's Frock Coat in Symphony of the Night...
Speed:
-Richter can RUN! Bonus
Dexterity:
-Richter can backflip.
-Richter can run.
-Richter can superjump
-Richter has a go-through-enemies attack that gives him invincibility
-Richter can slide
-Richter can moonwalk (Rondo)
Magic:
-Richter has ItemCrush by default.
Magic Defense:
-MINUS: Richter got his mind possessed by Shaft. Though Simon was cursed, he was able to play through it. Richter succumbed.
-Richter can somehow breathe underwater in Symphony of the Night.
-Richter has a go-through-enemies attack that gives him invincibility
Here are the stats I've determined for Richter:
STR = 14
DEF = 4
SPD = 18
DEX = 20
MAG = 16
MGD = 8
Not too bad, I think...
Unfortunately, this works more for the whole behind-the-scenes level-up RPG system than it does for visible in-game abilities. Balancing out a game using old and new characters would be very challenging.
You might want to look into something like Serio's Castlevania fighter, which has multiple Belmonts, and see how their gameplay varies. Or look into something like Judgment (where for example Simon's dextrous nature allows him to combo a lot of his whip hits, while Trevor's more armored gameplay focuses on knockdown moves and harder but less frequent hits).
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Exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. I had drew up my own list quite a while ago now but didn't think there was any point in posting it then.
How I did it was also categorical though not number based but tier based instead. I made an attempt to balance but also stick true to the character. If story dictates they may be weak then they should be on the lower end of the spectrum in gameplay also.
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Let's keep in mind that we have only seen Julius's capability as a 55 year old man. If he was able to make part of the castle crumble as seen during the fight with him in AoS, imagine how powerful he was when he was young. Also, in DoS, he was able to destroy monsters without using a magic seal when it should be impossible to do so without one (again in his 50s).
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Is there anything to say that he would be stronger due to his age though? Perhaps his magical/sub weapon abilities are so powerful BECAUSE of his advanced age and not in SPITE of.
Perhaps it could be said his physical abilities would have diminished but in most fantasy canons the older a magical user the stronger they are. Maybe also his ability to destroy the monsters without a magical seal is also because of his impressive magical abilities? We haven't seen any other Belmont aged so we can't really say either way. I think it's too presumptive to say he would be more awesome were he younger, it's like assuming Simon would be feeble in his 50s and not more powerful.
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I wish to correct you on one thing Foenix if you'd allow it.
Whip speed:
Juste
Richter/Johnathan
Simon/Trevor/
Julius/John
Christopher
If you'd played Castlevania II then you'd know that Simon's whipping speed surpasses all other Belmonts. That being the case I'd move Simon to the top of the chart for whip speed. Believe me, in CV II Simon's whip strikes are fast. It's almost rapid fire.
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I would say that Christopher would be an oddball, but in a good way:
1. slow movement (walking, no running, no sliding)
2. incredible prowess with the whip due to upper-body strength (he does climb soooo many ropes). I think he might swing the whip faster than even Simon.
3. above-average magic usage. He's the one that can concentrate his powers and shoot energy blasts from his whip. Simon required magicians to power it up.
4. some minimal amount of armor already puts him above average in terms of defense.
So he would lack in speed and dexterity, but have speed and strength up, with a little magic peppered in there.
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Is there anything to say that he would be stronger due to his age though? Perhaps his magical/sub weapon abilities are so powerful BECAUSE of his advanced age and not in SPITE of.
Perhaps it could be said his physical abilities would have diminished but in most fantasy canons the older a magical user the stronger they are. Maybe also his ability to destroy the monsters without a magical seal is also because of his impressive magical abilities? We haven't seen any other Belmont aged so we can't really say either way. I think it's too presumptive to say he would be more awesome were he younger, it's like assuming Simon would be feeble in his 50s and not more powerful.
True. Typically magic users grow more powerful with age, but here is one piece of evidence to indicate that's not the case with Julius. In DoS, right before he cracks the barrier in the condemned tower, he tells Arikado that he could break it, but it's unlikely that he would have enough energy to fight. Then after he breaks it, he's down on one knee and tells Soma that growing old is a terrible thing. This seems to indicate that when he was younger, not only would he have been able to break the barrier, but he would also have the energy to fight afterwards.
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For me, Id say Richter Belmont. He is considered the most powerful Belmont (Julius aside). In Harmony of Despair, his whip damage output was the greatest of all the whip characters. Not to mention he is BADASS! Also to mention, one HYDRO STORM! In Symphony Of The Night would decimate bosses in one (maybe 2) crashes. You cant tell me that Julius could do better.
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Simon Belmont is the most powerful whip from the SNES IV game. That whip was like wow, I do not think any other game after that had that whip. Ritchet is the most powerful, in a nutshell. But compared to Simon he is nothing.
I don't know if the GBA games count.