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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: theplottwist on April 05, 2016, 07:30:46 PM
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So, while writting my Castlevania Split Timeline hypothesis and figuring out what game would branch from what event, I realized that Cornell is not the only one in Judgment to come from an alternate timeline: Death and Carmilla also are, and they come from the same one as his.
This is simple enough to explain: Death and Carmilla know Cornell from his "Blue Crescent Moon" moniker, and nor Cornell or his moniker are a thing in IGA's timeline.
One could argue Death is omniscient, but this is simply not true, as I have demonstrated here. (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,7585.msg169654.html#msg169654)
Carmilla has no excuse: Either she came from Cornell's timeline, or there is no way for her to know who he is.
Finally, one could say that Cornell exists in IGA's timeline, but is simply not mentioned, and that's how Death and Carmilla know him. This could be true, however Cornell, while talking to Death, says this:
"Ask as often as you will... but I will never serve Dracula."
This implies that Death has tried to recruit Cornell before, and we have notice of NO SUCH THING in IGA's timeline. Again, this could be shalked up to "offscreen recruitment" but, more importantly, I raise you what Death says if he defeats Cornell:
"With this, the Master's next reincarnation is assured."
Where do we see Death try this scheme? Yes, in LoD. He takes Cornell's wolf soul and uses it to ensure Dracula's revival. The most important part here, however, is not the plan itself, but where it comes from: In LoD, Death reveals that this scheme was DRACULA's idea, not his. Therefore, him using Cornell's soul to "assure Master's next reincarnation" is a command issued by LoD-timeline Dracula. Also, notice how he says "reincarnation" and not "revival" or "resurrection" -- he's talking about Malus.
Now, the next logical question would be "But Death knows Alucard from IGA's timeline!". Indeed he does -- this is why I'm working on a split timeline. I believe Judgment's Death comes from Cornell's timeline AFTER it split from a point in the main timeline. This means that Alucard indeed exist in LoD's timeline, and whatever was the reason for the split, it was after SotN.
While I can't point Carmilla, I'd say Death comes from just before LoD, or even from the time between LoD and CV64.
EDIT: No. He certainly comes from before LoD's ending, but after Dracula planned to use his soul to reincarnate. He already knows Cornell, yet he doesn't possess his soul yet, as evidenced by the line he speaks in Judgment that I posted above. If he came from after this, Dracula's reincarnation would already be assured, no matter if time-rift Cornell dies or not.
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I have a HUGE Flowchart with at least five different timelines.
It'd be great if we could go over it because I'm not the master of all of the dates and dialog.
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Judgement condenses all the timelines in a Pool, possibly creating many paradoxes in result.
Just imagine a Judgement 2, which could have Gabriel, Prime Taradox
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The fact that Death knows Alucard (Iga) and Cornell (non-Iga) doesn't necessarily mean he knew Alucard at a certain time though?
The script between Death and Cornell seems to indicate LOD has not happened yet in the non-Iga Timeline at the point (in between timelines) when Judgement occurs. If that same Death knows Alucard it could be that he's addressing him as he would address the Alucard from Legends or that the Non-Iga timeline split itself off from the Iga timeline after Alucard was born but prior to Legends splitting into its own timeline, which then leads into LOD.
If Death recognises Alucard as SOTN Alucard but LOD has not happened yet then something must have caused the timeline to split around/ after SOTN's events. In my eyes this would be the bad ending of SOTN where Alucard kills Richter and the whip is passed to the Schneider family. It would be an alternate sequence of events unfolding and judgement must occur at the junction in time after that split, should this be the case.
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The fact that Death knows Alucard (Iga) and Cornell (non-Iga) doesn't necessarily mean he knew Alucard at a certain time though?
The script between Death and Cornell seems to indicate LOD has not happened yet in the non-Iga Timeline at the point (in between timelines) when Judgement occurs. If that same Death knows Alucard it could be that he's addressing him as he would address the Alucard from Legends or that the Non-Iga timeline split itself off from the Iga timeline after Alucard was born but prior to Legends splitting into its own timeline, which then leads into LOD.
If Death recognises Alucard as SOTN Alucard but LOD has not happened yet then something must have caused the timeline to split around/ after SOTN's events. In my eyes this would be the bad ending of SOTN where Alucard kills Richter and the whip is passed to the Schneider family. It would be an alternate sequence of events unfolding and judgement must occur at the junction in time after that split, should this be the case.
Edited my post to answer that before you posted :P
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Edited my post to answer that before you posted :P
Touché :)
I also had incorporated this into my timeline/ signature some time ago. i.e. SOTN's Bad Ending flows directly into LOD. (As does RoB's)
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Judgment appears to take some liberties with the translation a lot of times (moreso than usual anyway), so I would like to double check the dialogue for implied familiarity between Cornell and other characters. I'm actually not a big fan of split timelines (in Castlevania in at least), so I'm going stick to the interpretation that Cornell is from a completely different world for now.
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Judgment appears to take some liberties with the translation a lot of times (moreso than usual anyway), so I would like to double check the dialogue for implied familiarity between Cornell and other characters. I'm actually not a big fan of split timelines (in Castlevania in at least), so I'm going stick to the interpretation that Cornell is from a completely different world for now.
If you find something, I'd appreciate it very much.
However, this time, I'm confident there isn't TOO MUCH change from the japanese script, because Cornell's issue with Death is actually a plot-point in his Judgment campaign.
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So I found the dialogue. Carmilla says: "見つかたわ 蒼き三日月" (I found you, Blue Cresent Moon) And then Cornell says:
"バンパイア また 俺に仲間になれというのか" I could be wrong, but this is my interpretation: "Vampire, (do you wish/are you asking) me to join you, as well?" I typed the text actually how it appeared on screen, and I'm not sure why there is a gap between "また" and the rest of the sentence. I think it's there so the reader doesn't get confused, but I'm not exactly sure why. So maybe this case needs a second opinion from Shiroi.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm5917835 (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm5917835) (19:55)
I think the "as well" refers to Cornell being asked to join before, but by someone else, most likely Death. I personally think Cornell doesn't get asked to join Dracula until he is in the Time Rift, since there is no evidence in Legacy of Darkness that someone on Dracula's side tried to recruit him, but I admit it's hard to determine that either way.
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So I found the dialogue. Carmilla says: "見つかたわ 蒼き三日月" (I found you, Blue Cresent Moon) And then Cornell says:
"バンパイア また 俺に仲間になれというのか" I could be wrong, but this is my interpretation: "Vampire, (do you wish/are you asking) me to join you, as well?" I typed the text actually how it appeared on screen, and I'm not sure why there is a gap between "また" and the rest of the sentence. I think it's there so the reader doesn't get confused, but I'm not exactly sure why. So maybe this case needs a second opinion from Shiroi.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm5917835 (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm5917835) (19:55)
I think the "as well" refers to Cornell being asked to join before, but by someone else, most likely Death. I personally think Cornell doesn't get asked to join Dracula until he is in the Time Rift, since there is no evidence in Legacy of Darkness that someone on Dracula's side tried to recruit him, but I admit it's hard to determine that either way.
Thank you Nagumo. If you find Cornell's story mode, please post it.
At a certain point I considered that Cornell might get asked to join Dracula inside the rift, before meeting Carmilla. Thing is: Death only comes after Carmilla, not before, in Cornell's campaign. Who else would ask Cornell to join Dracula before Carmilla? There are no other characters in the rift on Dracula's side beyond Carmilla and Death.
You said there is no evidence in LoD about Cornell getting asked to join Dracula. Well, I believe Ortega could be evidence for this happening at some point. Ortega knows about Dracula (Cornell also does in LoD) and sold Ada and the village in return for his powers.
In Cornell's world, he's different. Cornell is a man-beast that won't kill humans. As shown in LoD, he's taking care of Ada to atone for the killing of her parents committed by fellow man-beasts.
Considering there are evil werewolves in his world, I find it plausible they would question why would Cornell refuse to be evil or consume humans. So, by "joining their side" he could meaning "the side of evil/darkness", a side which vampires and evil man-beasts belong together, and not exactly "the side of Dracula." Though, Dracula being the Lord of Darkness, the side of evil is pretty much his lol
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Dammit plottwist... You beat me to Ortega.
This is much like SFII the Animated Movie where Bison(Vega in Japan) wanted Ryu but had to recruit Ken knowing Ryu would come looking for him. All along Dracula wanted Cornell's wolf form, and this wouldn't be the first time Death would ask someone to side with Dracula I.e. Alucard in SOTN before he's stripped of his gear.
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So I found the dialogue. Carmilla says: "見つかたわ 蒼き三日月" (I found you, Blue Cresent Moon) And then Cornell says:
"バンパイア また 俺に仲間になれというのか" I could be wrong, but this is my interpretation: "Vampire, (do you wish/are you asking) me to join you, as well?" I typed the text actually how it appeared on screen, and I'm not sure why there is a gap between "また" and the rest of the sentence. I think it's there so the reader doesn't get confused, but I'm not exactly sure why. So maybe this case needs a second opinion from Shiroi.
I think the space bar between the words are just place holders for commas.
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In Cornell's world, he's different. Cornell is a man-beast that won't kill humans. As shown in LoD, he's taking care of Ada to atone for the killing of her parents committed by fellow man-beasts.
Isn't Cornell also special for being able to completely suppress his Lycan form keeping his human and Lycan sides separate, whereas with Ortega you can clearly see that his Lycan features permeate through his humanity.
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I checked dialogue from Cornell's and Death's campaign, and the implied familiarity is actually stronger in the Japanese version. Woops. On top of that, Dracula's pre-battle quote to Cornell is "Fascinating. It's all coming back to me now" (which matches the Japanese version). Cornell clearly has a connection with these other characters, so the most logical and least complicated interpretation is that he is from the same world as them. So I was definitely wrong about Cornell being from another world.
Anyway, I'm going to change my interpretation to something else. I think what plottwist already suggested, that Judgment only brought Cornell into the IGA canon, and that the N64 games are still gaiden. I don't they can work as an alternative timeline of events. Interestingly, that would fit with IGA's statement about him wanting to go back and "tweak" old storylines. Maybe we would have gotten a Cornell game eventually?
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I checked dialogue from Cornell's and Death's campaign, and the implied familiarity is actually stronger in the Japanese version. Woops
That was... Unexpected.
Dracula's pre-battle quote to Cornell is "Fascinating. It's all coming back to me now"
OK hold on: This Dracula line is generic, VS. mode only, because as far as I know, Dracula never faces Cornell in the story mode (the "canon" course of events). Whenever he has no line, he uses this one. Dracula's specific line against Cornell is actually shared with Golem: "You dare challenge me? How utterly ridiculous."
That's why I only consider what they say on the story mode cutscene battles.
(which matches the Japanese version). Cornell clearly has a connection with these other characters, so the most logical and least complicated interpretation is that he is from the same world as them. So I was definitely wrong about Cornell being from another world.
I don't think you're wrong in this regard. IGA has already confirmed this to you personally.
The issue with Cornell being from the same world as IGA's canon is that it would mean Legacy of Darkness taking place. And, not only has IGA already confirmed that Legacy of Darkness is not canon, but Judgment's intro text and ending confirm that Cornell comes from Legacy of Darkness.
So, either Death comes from Legacy, or we have a contradiction.
Anyway, I'm going to change my interpretation to something else. I think what plottwist already suggested, that Judgment only brought Cornell into the IGA canon, and that the N64 games are still gaiden. I don't they can work as an alternative timeline of events. Interestingly, that would fit with IGA's statement about him wanting to go back and "tweak" old storylines. Maybe we would have gotten a Cornell game eventually?
I wonder what is your gripe against a split timeline :P
IGA has gone on record saying that these games belong in a "separate world with the same worldview." The developers of these games have built them with the base lore in mind (Reinhardt descends from the Belmonts, for instance). A split timeline would explain this not only from the story/headcanon perspective, but also from the dev perspective too -- the devs simply choosing to go their own way from a certain point in the franchise.
But, of course, to each his own.
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Nothing wrong with a good olde' fashioned split timeline.
I remember back in the hey-days of Zelda I was a splitist and used to take on many linearists in my spare time. Hell, I even called the 3 way timeline split for every game to both work while relating back to OOT.
I can't ignore that OOS sets up a plot where old man Dracula (his Spirit Guardian) is fought and the castle doesn't crumble, preceding LoD.
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Well, there's a simple technical reason for it actually. In the N64 games, the moment Dracula revives after 100 years in 1852 (this is also made clear in the Japanese version), which doesn't match up with the dates used for other games in the timeline at all. I suppose you could just ignore that information, but I'm guessing it's one of the reason the game ended up removed from the storyline. If the setting of the games is a completely different world and not an alternative timeline, then one wouldn't have to worry about details like that. Secondly, which is just my personal preference, there really isn't any set-up for it. But this is just what I think, of course.
So since Cornell appears in Judgment, has a shared history with the characters, but IGA still insist Legacy of Darkness is a gaiden, I thought the most simple way to reconcile this is that a event involving Cornell, with strong similarities to the plot of Legacy of Darkness, happend in a somewhat similar fashion in the IGA timeline. This may or may not fall in line with his comment about "tweaking" old storylines. Of course, a split timeline is still an alternative way to handle the situation, but it does require a lot of explanation.
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Well, there's a simple technical reason for it actually. In the N64 games, the moment Dracula revives after 100 years in 1852 (this is also made clear in the Japanese version), which doesn't match up with the dates used for other games in the timeline at all. I suppose you could just ignore that information, but I'm guessing it's one of the reason the game ended up removed from the storyline.
Actually makes sense and I can't ignore that. Indeed seems like one of the reasons the game got removed.
Yet, I must point out what Malus!Dracula says and how it conflicts with LoD itself: "Now, after 100 years, I return in the body of this child. I never dreamed it would last so long...ah the wasted years! I live again!!!"
Dracula was revived in 1844, and that was NOT an impostor -- the impostor is Gilles de Rais defeated by Reinhardt later. Gilles de Rais is seen on the ritual performed by Death that revives Dracula in the intro, so that is obviously the real Dracula who Cornell fought.
Therefore it's not been "100 years" since his last revival, but only 8 years. Either Dracula is speaking on a generalised manner, or the developers didn't think this through (OR in japanese he says something completelly different).
Your statement regarding the 100 years rule stands, and I'll have to rethink this through. I think it's STILL possible to build an split timeline from that, so I'll be looking for a feasible way to do it. But there is a clear contradiction within the logic here, unless what Dracula says makes more sense in japanese.
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That's the thing though plottwist, LOD's Dracula was on the brink of being resurrected but Cornell sent him back to the underworld. Technically he never manifested into flesh (although his Guardian did).
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That's the thing though plottwist, LOD's Dracula was on the brink of being resurrected but Cornell sent him back to the underworld. Technically he never manifested into flesh (although his Guardian did).
That's not really what happens, though. Dracula is indeed resurrected by Death in the first cutscene of the game, sacrifice and all. Gilles de Rais is there in the room with him, so that Dracula is not a fake.
The Guardian is Gilles de Rais himself in disguise.
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In the Japanese version, he says: "My memories from a hundred years ago have returned to me" or something like that. He doesn't actually say this was the first time he revived since then, but it does imply it was that time that his last full resurrection took place.
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That's not really what happens, though. Dracula is indeed resurrected by Death in the first cutscene of the game, sacrifice and all. Gilles de Rais is there in the room with him, so that Dracula is not a fake.
The Guardian is Gilles de Rais himself in disguise.
That's old Dracula though, he is the Guardian of true Dracula's spirit.
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So since Cornell appears in Judgment, has a shared history with the characters, but IGA still insists Legacy of Darkness is a gaiden, I thought the most simple way to reconcile this is that a event involving Cornell, with strong similarities to the plot of Legacy of Darkness, happened in a somewhat similar fashion in the IGA timeline.
I have been arguing this for years. Thank you for saying it.
My personal belief is that the "canon" version of those events would be that Dracula's actual resurrection failed completely, but everything else is free to happen largely as displayed in game.