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Offline crisis

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1094-1476
« on: July 02, 2016, 12:28:00 PM »
0
Prolly the biggest mystery(plothole?) the series has ever introduced. this has always bugged me. In the manual for cv adventure, it states that b4 the series officially started, Dracula began as a powerful sorcerer conducting taboo rituals in his castle every night. in lament of Innocence if you recall, Mathias departs Leo to whereabouts unknown. where did he go?

IGA is on record stating that the Belmonts spent their days hunting demons & vampires. so how did they lose track of their sworn enemy? It doesnt make any sense

it always intrigued me that during this period (14th century) was when the Black Plague took place, which resulted in the deaths of an estimated 75 to 200 million people throughout Europe. I’d like to think Dracula was responsible, no? how the hell did this go unnoticed by the Belmonts??


Wat are you guys/girls theories on what happend

Offline Lumi Kløvstad

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Re: 1094-1476
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2016, 03:29:03 PM »
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*puts on Scholar Hat and Glasses*

so how did they lose track of their sworn enemy? It doesn't make any sense

To steal a quote from Stargate SG1 that I believe illustrates this conundrum:

Quote
Carter: How did the Pentagon manage to lose a weapon like THAT?
O'Neil: Sam, please. Try to be realistic. The Pentagon has lost entire countries.

The more intensely you're looking for something, the more narrow your vision becomes, and ironically, the easier it becomes for something to slip under your nose.

This to me confirms that Castlevania did NOT begin as Walter's Castle (which did NOT collapse), but is another structure entirely -- otherwise why would the Belmonts simply not check EXACTLY where Leon and Mathias had last met each other several times on principle?

In the manual for CV Adventure, it states that before the series officially started, Dracula began as a powerful sorcerer conducting taboo rituals in his castle every night. In Lament of Innocence, if you recall, Mathias departs from Leon's presence to whereabouts unknown. Where did he go?

Well, we know that Dracula went roadtripping across Europe, finding other powerful vampires and either enlisting them into his service or killing them and absorbing their powers via the Crimson Stone+Death combo package, and it's implied he did so for quite some time.

it always intrigued me that during this period (14th century) was when the Black Plague took place, which resulted in the deaths of an estimated 75 to 200 million people throughout Europe. I’d like to think Dracula was responsible, no? how the hell did this go unnoticed by the Belmonts??

I think this is one thing Dracula can't take credit for without altering history rather considerably.

The Black Death is now believed to have been the end result of the one of the worst ever uses of biological weaponry in history, beginning in 1346 at the Siege of Caffa. While there's very little to out and out prevent Dracula from being involved in this in the Castlevania version of events, what would possibly be his motive? At this point he's still having a grudge-on with God, not humanity. That doesn't happen until almost a century later, so Dracula unleashing the Plague this early doesn't make a whole lot of sense. In addition, it remains more narratively poignant to keep this a strict case of man's inhumanity to his fellow man, something that was here long before Dracula and is destined to be here long after he's gone. Now he may have been responsible for a later outbreak, or something that would appear to have been a later outbreak, after his War Against Mankind had started, but I'm fairly certain the original outbreak was all on the Mongols.

Pinning every catastrophe in the timeline on Dracula is definitely something the common man might have done, but Dracula truthfully doesn't have a whole lot of agency in the timeline -- indeed, most of the crap attributed to him is generally carried out instead by those who worship him or are trying to revive him. Generally he dies again before he's able to carry out any nefariousness of noteworthy scale. So, as someone with an outside-the-fourth-wall perspective, I don't think it's correct or fair to pin every single tragedy of history on Dracula simply because he was alive around that time -- especially this one.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 03:31:19 PM by The Bloody Scholar »
How not to be a dark lord: the answer to that is a terribly interesting answer that involves an almost Jedi-like adherence to keeping oneself under control and finding ways to be true to yourself in a way that doesn't encourage the worst parts of you to become dangerously exaggerated and instead feeds your better nature. Also, protip: don't fuck with Alchemy or strike up any deals with ancient Japanese Shinigami gods no matter how tempting the deal or how suavely dressed the Shinigami is.

Offline Nagumo

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Re: 1094-1476
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2016, 03:45:00 PM »
0
I think Dracula wasn't that bad of a guy before Lisa's death. According to the "history of Castlevania", Dracula "regained his human heart" because of his love for Lisa. He also didn't become the Dark Lord until after he found out she was executed. Presumably, he didn't call himself Dracula until then, either.

I brought this is up before, but I would be interested in a game featuring younger versions of Dracula and Lisa that would detail the story of how they first met. Dracula, or how he was known back then, let's say Vlad, gets to be the cocky, arrogant anti-hero, but is still a protagonist you could genuinely root for i.e not a big bully like Gabula who is needed to beat up other bullies.

Offline KaZudra

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Re: 1094-1476
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2016, 04:11:08 PM »
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You see, there is progression.

At the end of LoI, He wanted to rebel against god for the death of Elizabetha.

But at SoTN, you find him reading Bible passages and really waging war with humanity.

I'd like to think in that time-frame he made amendments with God, only to come to the conclusion that it's mankind whom he hated more, It really just roots that Love is the greatest and most terrible thing we are given, it's the Love of something which can turn us against it when we are betrayed.

"I ain't gonna let it get to me I'm just gonna let it get to me" -Knuckles

Offline Lumi Kløvstad

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Re: 1094-1476
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2016, 04:50:42 PM »
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You see, there is progression.

At the end of LoI, He wanted to rebel against god for the death of Elizabetha.

But at SoTN, you find him reading Bible passages and really waging war with humanity.

I'd like to think in that time-frame he made amendments with God, only to come to the conclusion that it's mankind whom he hated more, It really just roots that Love is the greatest and most terrible thing we are given, it's the Love of something which can turn us against it when we are betrayed.

*nods* Very much so.

This is something the first Lords of Shadow did try to address (and did okay at it) but something which fell down dead in the sequels. They get credit for trying, but only Symphony of the Night really nailed it, and what's more impressive is that it never even drew attention to the point it was trying to make -- it just left the necessary elements there until the player figured it out themselves.
How not to be a dark lord: the answer to that is a terribly interesting answer that involves an almost Jedi-like adherence to keeping oneself under control and finding ways to be true to yourself in a way that doesn't encourage the worst parts of you to become dangerously exaggerated and instead feeds your better nature. Also, protip: don't fuck with Alchemy or strike up any deals with ancient Japanese Shinigami gods no matter how tempting the deal or how suavely dressed the Shinigami is.

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: 1094-1476
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2016, 01:13:22 AM »
0
I think Dracula wasn't that bad of a guy before Lisa's death. According to the "history of Castlevania", Dracula "regained his human heart" because of his love for Lisa. He also didn't become the Dark Lord until after he found out she was executed. Presumably, he didn't call himself Dracula until then

I don't believe this to be true, see Iga's timeline http://nichegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/timeline-side2.jpg

The Lisa incident was discussed in a previous thread and thought to be closer to cv3's events from what I understood.

The timeline states that in 1476 Mathias changes his name to "Vlad Tepes", but not Dracula.
In fact on the top left of the spread it refers to Mathias and "Dracula" interchangeably in those 300 years between LOI>CVIII.

The event with Lisa happening closer to cv3 marries up with taking the name and the throne of Vlad Tepes in order to take his throne which would assist in exacting his revenge on the humans.

To Bloody Scholar: Walter's Castle does physically crumble after Death is bested by Leon, why else do we see pieces of the structure fall and Leon run out of the Castle. We've discussed this in another thread, whether the a Castle is CV or not is debatable but it seems the majority consensus believes that it isn't.

To OP: It makes perfect sense what Mathias was doing for 300 years which would leave him undetected; he was killing other creatures of the night (Vampires) and absorbing their power as his own via the Crimson Stone. It states this in Iga's timeline.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline theplottwist

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Re: 1094-1476
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2016, 02:24:06 AM »
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To OP: It makes perfect sense what Mathias was doing for 300 years which would leave him undetected; he was killing other creatures of the night (Vampires) and absorbing their power as his own via the Crimson Stone. It states this in Iga's timeline.

Actually it doesn't. The specific part you're pointing on the timeline says that the killing of vampires by the Belmonts is inexplicably adding to Dracula's growing power, and not Dracula himself killing them. Furthermore, IGA mentions twice that Mathias/Dracula was indeed living peacefully:




The first screenshot even confirms from IGA's mouth that it's the Belmonts hunting other vampires down, not Dracula (who, again, is living peacefully). So, the dude is doing absolutelly nothing and still absorbing souls out there to gain power? I doubt it. You can't "live quietly/peacefully" and STILL go out to kill vampires/suck their souls to increase your own power (which is also bizarre, considering the Stone's only power is to grant immortality and vampirism to its owner, nothing more).

My main issue with this timeline is that it doesn't exist on Japan and, even though it confirms some japanese-only info we are aware of, it does contradict information provided by IGA prior to this timeline's creation.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 02:26:23 AM by theplottwist »
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Offline Lumi Kløvstad

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Re: 1094-1476
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2016, 02:48:34 AM »
0
Walter's Castle does physically crumble after Death is bested by Leon, why else do we see pieces of the structure fall and Leon run out of the Castle. We've discussed this in another thread, whether the a Castle is CV or not is debatable but it seems the majority consensus believes that it isn't.
I'd actually completely forgotten that the Castle crumbled. I haven't actually played to completion since... high school at least. I dunno. It's been a long time though. Long enough for my memory to derp*.



I've always wanted a game set in that interim where the Belmonts would be hunting a series of increasingly stronger vampires but every time they kill said vampire Death shows up and is all "LOL I'm gonna use the soul to power up my master and you still have no idea where he is see you later Belmontsonofbelmont toodles *poof*" and the Belmont is just all "FML", but just when they're considering "maybe I should stop doing this and giving Death a whole bunch of souls to use" another monster shows up and the Belmont is dragged back into the fight going "SERIOUSLY. FML."

And then eventually the Belmont just gets the bright idea to kill a vampire lord and then attack Death as soon as he shows up to claim the soul and that'd be the final boss.


*It cuts out about just after the hilarity of "I'LL KILL YOU AND THE NIGHT!!!"
How not to be a dark lord: the answer to that is a terribly interesting answer that involves an almost Jedi-like adherence to keeping oneself under control and finding ways to be true to yourself in a way that doesn't encourage the worst parts of you to become dangerously exaggerated and instead feeds your better nature. Also, protip: don't fuck with Alchemy or strike up any deals with ancient Japanese Shinigami gods no matter how tempting the deal or how suavely dressed the Shinigami is.

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: 1094-1476
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2016, 03:04:53 AM »
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@plottwist The thing about the timeline's description of the 300 years being bogus and Mathias living peacefully can not be true. Then we're basically saying that between LOI>CV3 Mathias did not grow in strength at all which seems a bit ludicrous seeing his power in cv3 and given how many years have passed.

Also living peacefully by whose definition exactly? He was still cursing God and defying him by defying succumbing to death, "peacefully" may simply be defined as not exacting any specific harm on other living creatures. Peacefully can still mean cursing God for 300 years as is implicit in LOI's ending.

Of the timeline not being released in Japan:
- do you have proof?
- so what if it wasn't?
- why was it released at all if it wasn't relevant?
Rondo was never released in the west at the time it was released, and that doesn't make it any less relevant.
It also gives explicit details of not only when Mathias changes his name, but what was happening during 300 missing years.
This isn't some slapstick EGM or IGN promoted timeline, this was given out with actual games which unless retconned by Iga, still stands. 
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline theplottwist

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Re: 1094-1476
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2016, 03:59:42 AM »
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@plottwist The thing about the timeline's description of the 300 years being bogus and Mathias living peacefully can not be true. Then we're basically saying that between LOI>CV3 Mathias did not grow in strength at all which seems a bit ludicrous seeing his power in cv3 and given how many years have passed.

Well, it's the developer speaking, so it is very much true.

Igarashi does say Dracula acquired magical powers, but not how. The numerous manual entries before him, however, say the same, plus specifying his "gaining of powers" to be through pacts with entities and studying of black magic. This explains his growing in power without the need of sucking up more vampire souls.

Studying magic on your own without disrupting order is still living quietly/peacefully.

Quote
Also living peacefully by whose definition exactly? He was still cursing God and defying him by defying succumbing to death, "peacefully" may simply be defined as not exacting any specific harm on other living creatures. Peacefully can still mean cursing God for 300 years as is implicit in LOI's ending.

If we keep broadening the terms "living peacefully" then we we'll get to a point were waging war on people is "living peacefully." Igarashi seems to mean by this that Dracula is living without causing stir. He's hiding. Which is how he managed to evade the Belmonts for so long while they hunted other vampires. Of course he can live peacefully while cursing God. But it's hard to swallow he'd "live peacefully" while kicking ass and running out of bubblegum.

I'll give it to you that he could send Death to collect those souls and still "live peacefully." Yet, as I mentioned before, the Stone's only specified powers are granting immortality and vampirism to its owner. I don't see how collecting vampire souls could add to his power in the offensive sense. But I could see it on the influential/political sense: If you absorb your reviving opposition, then they can't resurrect, therefore effectivelly diminishing the pool of powerful vampires at hand and, maybe, even have their troops submit to you.

Of course, I pointed this out before but what I said was regarded as complete madness.

Quote
Of the timeline not being released in Japan:
- do you have proof?
- so what if it wasn't?
- why was it released at all if it wasn't relevant?
Rondo was never released in the west at the time it was released, and that doesn't make it any less relevant.

1. It's a pre-order bonus for the US audience. But I have a gut-feeling this won't be enough to convince you, so I invite you to search for its japanese version.
2. If it wasn't then there is a very good chance IGA had nothing to do with it, and its built upon canon info, manual info and a bunch of assumptions (explaining the presence of the non-canon games in there, while IGA himself would notice the glaring issue with this, having already stated at the time these two games are not canon. Plus, Grant is not a pirate -- this is how westerners see him).
3. No idea. The true question is: Why release it to us, and not to the japanese? The japanese market had priority under IGA's reign, not us. His latest timeline, even, was never released in english anywhere. So, why is it relevant to us and not to them?
4. And East was the relevant market for the main franchise games at the time, because its developers are easterners, not westerners.

Quote
It also gives explicit details of not only when Mathias changes his name, but what was happening during 300 missing years. This isn't some slapstick EGM or IGN promoted timeline, this was given out with actual games which unless retconned by Iga, still stands.

Well, the US manuals also invent a bunch of bullshit, such as Brauner being turned into a vampire by the castle when we know very well by now this is not the case, or saying that Eric met Alucard when the japanese manual for Judgment never once says such a thing. These are also not some slapstick EGM or IGN promoted information, are they?

I'm pointing out what this timeline says because, contrary to you, I don't think this timeline makes it THAT explicit. As you said:

Quote
The timeline states that in 1476 Mathias changes his name to "Vlad Tepes", but not Dracula.

Which is wrong because Alucard was born many years before 1476 and already bears the "Tepes" surname. No way Mathias adopted the "Vlad Tepes" name in 1476. But it's very much plausible he adopted "Dracula" in 1476 because IGA has gone on record saying he thought "Dracula" meant "Evil", and we now know Dracula becomes the symbol of evil itself in 1476.

My best guess is that Mathias changed his name to "Vlad Tepes" before this, but not HUNDREDS OF YEARS before like this timeline implies. Only a few decades before. For two simple reasons:
1. Using the same name for hundreds of years is the dumbest hiding strategy ever devised;
2. Dracula's grave in CVII reads 1431-76, which are the dates of his "birth" and death, supposed to mirror that of the real Vlad III.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 05:05:05 AM by theplottwist »
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: 1094-1476
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2016, 05:20:33 AM »
0
The other option is he also started adopting the name Vlad Tepes baring in mind he could eventually acquire the throne with Vlad's death.

I'll leave the rest as I'm on mobile, I do concede to most extents as I thought Iga was directly responsible for that timeline. Time for me to hide for 300 years maybe? :/
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

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