Topic: "The Dragon Returns" - Castlevania Lords of Shadow Sequel (HERE BE SPOILER INFO)

[Ahasverus]

Hint: No Quick Ti... or at least somes hope for an option to disable them.

OMG for realz?

Hey, Dave:

How can you get that from a shitty off-screen footage (on Youtube, which is capped at 30FPS) is beyond me...

It's constant (no stuttering) that's enough for me.!

[Lelygax]

It's constant (no stuttering) that's enough for me.!

Poor Stuttering...

[Chernabogue]

Uh, guys, Cox said a while ago QTE's could be disabled. 

[Intersection]

Here's a little snippet from the Castlevania Dawn of Sorrow wiki.

"Unlike most recent Castlevania games, Ayami Kojima did not participate in the character designs for Dawn of Sorrow. Instead, the characters were drawn in a distinctive anime style. This was done due to influence from producer Koji Igarashi, who wanted to market the game to a younger audience."

Basically, he was watering down the look of Castlevania, taking it from an already disputed gothic anime look, to a saturday morning cartoon anime look, in order to make it more accessible to kids.

LOS is a very mature game visually, and plays in a linear fashion like a classic Castlevania game.

Now which developer do you think had the older cv fans in mind?

Well, IGA...

You know, there's more to classic Castlevania than linearity and visual maturity.
IGA's games left nearly all of Castlevania's original spirit intact. Its gameplay, its design, its atmosphere -- everything was all flawlessly integrated with what gamers knew from the 8-bit titles of old. It came off to most as a natural, enriching continuation of what made the series great.

Lords of Shadow was created as a full-fledged reboot of the series. It had admittedly adopted Castlevania's mantle to give a fresher, entirely newer look to an aging franchise. As such, it strove to keep some of Castlevania's recognizable, evocative atmosphere, but chose to rebuild and readapt the series to create a large-scale, mainstream 3D title. In the way it was made, Lords of Shadow naturally bears far less resemblance to the titles that older fans might have known.
I'll give you a few examples, if you like:
- LoS is a 3D game.
- It uses a heavy, combo-based system for combat. Fighting is done in large, modern-style arena areas, rather than in linear corridors.
- Enemies aren't interspersed throughout all the game's areas, like in previous Castlevania titles; LoS offers extended, combat-free sequences platforming and exploration, and alternates them with intense, combat-exclusive arena fights.
- LoS doesn't smoothly integrate platforming and combat like other Castlevania games did. Its platforming sequences are scripted to the last movement, and its combat doesn't allow for a shrewd interaction with the environment.
Of course, some of these changes were required in order to create a functional 3D title; but those problems naturally occur when you advance that LoS is closer to classic CV...

Here's a little snippet from the Castlevania Dawn of Sorrow wiki.

"Unlike most recent Castlevania games, Ayami Kojima did not participate in the character designs for Dawn of Sorrow. Instead, the characters were drawn in a distinctive anime style. This was done due to influence from producer Koji Igarashi, who wanted to market the game to a younger audience."

Basically, he was watering down the look of Castlevania, taking it from an already disputed gothic anime look, to a saturday morning cartoon anime look, in order to make it more accessible to kids.

LOS is a very mature game visually, and plays in a linear fashion like a classic Castlevania game.

Now which developer do you think had the older cv fans in mind?

I for one do not see the open world style of play as an improvement. I see it as an alternate style of gameplay, not a superior feature. I liked the fact that LOS was linear like the original Castlevania was. This was another nod to the older Castlevania games in my opinion. It keeps the focus on action, which is my favorite part of CV. When I am playing a game, I prefer to spend my time battling monsters, and overcoming level obstacles- not wandering around a level collecting items and trying to figure out where to go next. I can appreciate that some fans prefer the Simon's Quest, SOTN open world style, but I don't think it makes sense to complain about the style of game LOS is. You might as well pop in Grand Turismo and complain that you can't drive off of the track and onto public streets.

By no means is an open world design always an improvement; in many cases, it can severely hurt a game. But in this case, Lords' linearity actually hampered its gameplay quite a bit. Here's what had happened:
Lords of Shadow tried to integrate the experience of a monumental, immersive environment with the focus and direction of a linear game. It offered spectacular views of seemingly boundless domains: lush forests, towering cliffs, crumbling ruins. Yet by its very nature it needed a specific, set path for its character to progress through. As a result, it was forced to set illogical, artificial barriers within the huge environment it had created. We all know the result: invisible walls; identical ledges you can't climb; apparent paths that can't be followed. Even the fixed camera played a role in this; so did the game's rigid platforming. The game proposed a seamless environment, yet expected the player to follow a single, precise path. This led to a lot of unnecessary confusion and frustration -- at best, the player didn't know why he couldn't move in a certain direction; at worst, he simply couldn't figure out where to go. The bottom line: Lords of Shadow could have better assumed its linearity and given the player a more visibly directed experience, all without sacrificing its gorgeous environment. The game partly missed that cue.

But, of course, we must forgive it: Lords of Shadow had many excellent aspects, and, most of the time, succeeds in a creating an enjoyable and cohesive experience. It was a great vision for the series that we would love to see at its full potential in LoS2. Isn't that why this thread exists in the first place? 

Uh, guys, Cox said a while ago QTE's could be disabled. 

Victory!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dremn]

Hint: No Quick Ti... or at least somes hope for an option to disable them.

Konami leak guy did hint that there is a possibility something like this would be implemented into the game. Apparently the higher ups are the ones who think flashy QTEs are what most people want...

[DragonSlayr81]

Well, IGA...

You know, there's more to classic Castlevania than linearity and visual maturity.

I'd go on to say that true platforming(as in jumping from platform to platform, not plank walking, climbing or shimmying) and nods to horror cinema was far more important aspects to the series(particularly the classics) than linearity and visual maturity. It's one of the reasons I initially got into CV(I'm a big horror movie fan). With the visual nods to Universal monsters, and the film strip intros(even with Bloodlines), I always saw the visual continuity to be mirroring that more of a horror movie(something Hammer-esque) than something dark and mature. Oddly enough, IGA kept true to both those ideas. His 2D games still had platforming(SotN most definitely) and there's still nods to classic horror and horror movies in general(Invisible Man in PoR, Leatherface, er, Mad Butcher in OoE).

Konami leak guy did hint that there is a possibility something like this would be implemented into the game. Apparently the higher ups are the ones who think flashy QTEs are what most people want...

Higher ups are idiots. Always have been, always will be. I think ALL gmes that use QTEs for certain functions should give the option of turning it off. I'm not saying ALL games should do that, though. Games like Heavy Rain are almost built on QTEs, so it's excusable that they keep their's in tact(the entirety of their gameplay COUNTS on it). But, games where you have to push up on the left joystick and down on the right one just to open a door, just make that shit optional to those who get off on that kinda thing. For everyone else, one button push(action button), bloop, door's open! Easy, no fuss, and keeps the pace going!

[Flame]

IGA's games left nearly all of Castlevania's original spirit intact.

That's opinion, and not all agree with it.

Its gameplay,

aside from MAYBE HoD, definitely not. They retained the SoTN spirit in tact, not the classic CV feel.

its design, its atmosphere

again, debatable, given that Ayami kojima took over art design for the majority of IGA's metroidvanias, and we lost the macho Belmont look and B-movie feel of the 80's. Atmosphere is VERY debatable, especially since atmosphere was pretty varied even across the classicvanias.

-- everything was all flawlessly integrated with what gamers knew from the 8-bit titles of old.

not at all. Again, debatable.

It came off to most as a natural,

I don't see repeating the SoTN formula over and over with minor tweaks hoping to make lighting strike twice as "natural".

 

enriching continuation of what made the series great.

post SoTn also seemed to take itself a bit too seriously IMO. The chronology and overarching plot got a bit too convoluted, and came to a head with shit like DoS and PoR. Even OoE, feels a little forced.

[beingthehero]

post SoTn also seemed to take itself a bit too seriously IMO...and came to a head with shit like DoS and PoR.

take itself a bit too seriously

DoS and PoR

ahahahahahahahahahahahhahaha

Also the "macho Belmont" died out in '93 after CV X68k. It was then straight-up anime heroes from then on. I guess the rest can be summed up with that classic defense, WELL THAT'S JUST YOUR OPINION

[Lelygax]

Sure, this was so serious when happened in the game:

[Belmontoya]

I was gonna respond to Intersection's last post but I got tired half way through it and gave up.

Anyways, Flame's response pretty much sums it up.

[Flame]

Well true. DoS and PoR were cheesy, for sure. part of the little kid appeal I guess.

Also, i dunno, but I still consider Richter the fine line between the manly Belmont and the anime Belmont. he was all anime, but wasn't too far off from a regular Belmont outside of a bandanna and younger looking face.

[Nagumo]

I think the B-Horror movie aesthetics were already dropped after CVI-III. Bloodlines may have the film reel opening, but it became more gothic atmospherically. Similarly, SCIV feels more like the stage of a gothic vampire novel instead of bad cinema slock. The GB titles never adhered to that concept in the first place.     

As for animu in my Castlevania, anime has been part of the series since it's early days. CVI and II had promotional items like phone cards and trading cards that had anime artwork. Even when you ignore Rondo, there was a trend showing it increasingly become more prevailent in the series. Games like Bloodlines and Dracula X quite clearly have an anime flavor to them. I doubt Symphony of the Night actually had that much of an impact on that developement. It was just a spin-off at the time and CV64 was supposed to be the true successor to the previous games. However, they too chose for anime. But what do you expect from a series with roots in Japan?       

take itself a bit too seriously

Am I the only one who thinks this is a bit ironic? 



Remember this grimdark artwork? Totally like Lords of Shadow. 

[Maedhros]

^
They'll say that it's the werstern manuals that matters. I think that this bullcrap of "taking itself seriously" was debunked so many times already, but people will always says otherwise.

A Japanese game will always have anime influences somewhere. I don't remember a big japanese series that didn't have anime influences.

[Intersection]

That's opinion, and not all agree with it.

Yep, it's my opinion...

aside from MAYBE HoD, definitely not. They retained the SoTN spirit in tact, not the classic CV feel.

Well, that's debatable. I think they do.

again, debatable, given that Ayami kojima took over art design for the majority of IGA's metroidvanias, and we lost the macho Belmont look and B-movie feel of the 80's.

Again, debatable. Not all classic CV's had a B-movie, 80's look, you know.

Atmosphere is VERY debatable, especially since atmosphere was pretty varied even across the classicvanias.

Yup, so it's debatable.

not at all. Again, debatable.

Not at all? I wouldn't say that. Debatable, I think you mean.

  post SoTn also seemed to take itself a bit too seriously IMO. The chronology and overarching plot got a bit too convoluted, and came to a head with shit like DoS and PoR. Even OoE, feels a little forced.

Well, that's actually VERY debatable.
...
...
All right, I've had my fun.  The bottom line: of course it's debatable. Everything is debatable. What you wrote, by the way, is also debatable.
But, basically, here was my point: IGA's titles are instantly recognizable as Castlevania games. Take a few seconds of classic CV gameplay, and superpose it with a few seconds of metroidvania gameplay; you'll see that they have a lot in common. No one's saying that they're identical; it wouldn't be very interesting if they were. IGA 'vanias have significant differences with the 8-bit classics of the 80's; but they'll always come off as a perfectly logical continuation.
Though I see your point, of course. Igarashi's games have their own, distinctive style, and how true you find them to be to the series' original spirit them is always a matter of taste, just like anything else.

I was gonna respond to Intersection's last post but I got tired half way through it and gave up.

... ... ... And how does that help?

[beingthehero]

Well true. DoS and PoR were cheesy, for sure. part of the little kid appeal I guess.

Like Haunted Castle?


4kidsonly

I would murder if something like that would be 2lords2shadow's box art.