Topic: "The Dragon Returns" - Castlevania Lords of Shadow Sequel (HERE BE SPOILER INFO)

[crisis]

(click to show/hide)

"leaked" info from 4chan, such as Chapter Titles, cameos, boss names, items/spells, etc. is what should be considered spoilers. speculation and theorizing aren't spoilers when we still only know about 10% of the plot, guys. so spoiler tags for non-spoilers is redundant, especially when the TITLE OF THE THREAD itself warns of SPOILER INFO

but as always, ignorance will always prevail so might as well keep using the spoiler tag amirite

[Slit_Zurifa]

(click to show/hide)

"leaked" info from 4chan, such as Chapter Titles, cameos, boss names, items/spells, etc. is what should be considered spoilers. speculation and theorizing aren't spoilers when we still only know about 10% of the plot, guys. so spoiler tags for non-spoilers is redundant, especially when the TITLE OF THE THREAD itself warns of SPOILER INFO

but as always, ignorance will always prevail so might as well keep using the spoiler tag amirite

I am a bit careful on that front though. I was once banned from GameFAQ, because I emntioned that Nito was a Boss in Dark Souls, after I have watched a stream of said game one day before its official release.

[theplottwist]

So even though it certainly has been discussed somehwere among the 300 pages of this thread, who do you think will end up being the final boss? What do you think of these two theories that I have listed here?

Dudes... I don't know about you, but I want the LoS trilogy to tie in with the classic timeline so damn much. I wished it pulled of a plot twist of GIGANTIC proportions that would scream "TAKE THAT!" to every fan's face, confirming in the end that this game was supposed to be canon all along... I have no idea how they would do it, though, but I have a feeling that the "final boss" would be the perfect place...

Now, about the question:
I do not really think Satan will be the ultimate boss of ultimate destiny. I mean, we are all expecting him to be, but there is something else going on, which I cannot quite place my finger on... Like, remember how Zobek was manipulated by Satan? What if Satan turns out to be also manipulated by someone in the end, who was mentioned on the story since the very beginning and we didn't even pay attention?

Like... Rinaldo Gandolfi?

Oh well, one can dream xD

[crisis]

Dudes... I don't know about you, but I want the LoS trilogy to tie in with the classic timeline so damn much. I wished it pulled of a plot twist of GIGANTIC proportions that would scream "TAKE THAT!" to every fan's face, confirming in the end that this game was supposed to be canon all along... I have no idea how they would do it, though, but I have a feeling that the "final boss" would be the perfect place...

I too have theorized similarly, and the only outcome I can think of is that the only way Dracula can prevent Satan from prevailing, he uses the time machine that's in the castle (recall the "Reverie" DLC) to travel back and somehow prevent either himself from falling to the dark side, or saving Carmilla Zobek & Cornell, thus altering history and allowing for the "canon" timeline to occur. I don't know.

[Claimh Solais]

I too have theorized similarly, and the only outcome I can think of is that the only way Dracula can prevent Satan from prevailing, he uses the time machine that's in the castle (recall the "Reverie" DLC) to travel back and somehow prevent either himself from falling to the dark side, or saving Carmilla Zobek & Cornell, thus altering history and allowing for the "canon" timeline to occur. I don't know.

I love the idea of tying the canons together (though I'd prefer they didn't), but man... Every time I see the words "time machine" thrown in, it always sounds so silly. And this is really a bummer for me, because I really like time travel plots (Legacy of Kain, for example).

Unless the plot initially involved time travel, it's very hard to actually make it sensible, and just... not silly.

[theplottwist]

I love the idea of tying the canons together (though I'd prefer they didn't), but man... Every time I see the words "time machine" thrown in, it always sounds so silly. And this is really a bummer for me, because I really like time travel plots (Legacy of Kain, for example).

Unless the plot initially involved time travel, it's very hard to actually make it sensible, and just... not silly.

Well, I will hypothesize.

Imagine that at the end of Lords of Shadow 2, Gabriel the Dracul becomes an even greater evil than Satan, threatening destroy the world effectivelly. Then a time traveller or some other sort of time manipulator (Hell, this could be Trevucard himself, wanting to give his father and himself a new destiny after happening upon Frankenstein's hidden Time Machine!) is sent back in time to prevent that Gabriel is ever abandoned as a bastard from the Cronqvist family, in hopes to avert his whole destiny (and even Zobek's own plans). By not being abandoned, Gabriel Cronqvist does not become Dracul, but his son in this new timeline, Mathias, becomes Dracula.

I do not know how the rest would unfold, however. I think that for a time-travel plot tieing to the canon to really work, the time-traveller/manipulator would have to go even farther and prevent that the Brotherhood  is even formed, maybe by killing Zobek while he is wearing the Death Mask (Which would effectivelly make him the final boss, and defeating him would make the Death Mask give rise to his soul becoming the canon Death, whose purpose is to serve the Dark Lord, also justifying Death's apparent hatred for time travellers), so the Lords of Shadow are never even born, as they are the whole reason as to why Gabriel/Dracul even exists.

If this happened and the Dark Lord Carmilla never existed, then the Bernhardts would not be driven out of their castle by her, leading to Walter becoming the Dark Lord and kidnapping Rinaldo's daughter, sending him in his quest to defeat Walter (LoS make it clear that this same thing happened in it's timeline, around Gabriel's time). An older Gabriel would give birth to Mathias Cronqvist in time for him to become a Knight (Remember the dates. Lords of Shadow is 1047, and Lament of Innocence is 1096. The dates do match) and Rinaldo to be stranded in the forest for a long period, and then the rest would unfold as it did.

Let's not forget that, somewhere inside Berhardt Castle, there IS a time machine constructed by Frankenstein, that was mentioned since the very beginning. If they decided to use it, they'd not be pulling it out of their asses to make it work.

I'm starting to think too much here xD

[Ahasverus]

If they don't allow me to punch Zobek in the balls I'll ask for a refund. What a bastard.

[Claimh Solais]

Well, I will hypothesize.

Imagine that at the end of Lords of Shadow 2, Gabriel the Dracul becomes an even greater evil than Satan, threatening destroy the world effectivelly. Then a time traveller or some other sort of time manipulator(Hell, this could be Trevucard himself, wanting to give his father and himself a new destiny!) is sent back in time to prevent that Gabriel is ever abandoned as a bastard from the Cronqvist family, in hopes to avert his whole destiny (and even Zobek's own plans). By not being abandoned, Gabriel Cronqvist does not become Dracul, but his son in this new timeline, Mathias, becomes Dracula, and the rest is history.

I do not know how the rest would unfold, however. I think that for a time-travel plot tieing to the canon to really work, the time-traveller/manipulator would have to go even farther and prevent that the Brotherhood is even formed, so the Lords of Shadow are never even born, as they are the whole reason as to why Gabriel/Dracula even exists.

Let's not forget that, somewhere inside Berhardt Castle, there IS a time machine constructed by Frankenstein.

This makes almost the whole plot of LoS completely meaningless, though. All of this happens, and is just effectively undone and never wound up happening.

[Intersection]

Why don't we keep Lords of Shadow in its own universe? It was never meant to be "canon", and I'm not too keen on seeing another convoluted plot twist try to take us back where IGA left off. Besides, I don't think MercurySteam would love to see its very own brainchild of a series essentially act as a massive prequel to a continuity from which it intentionally tried to distance itself.

Like, remember how Zobek was manipulated by Satan? What if Satan turns out to be also manipulated by someone in the end, who was mentioned on the story since the very beginning and we didn't even pay attention?

Like... Rinaldo Gandolfi?

Oh well, one can dream xD

Well, past Satan, I'm not sure how much more manipulative you can get... 

[theplottwist]

This makes almost the whole plot of LoS completely meaningless, though. All of this happens, and is just effectively undone and never wound up happening.

Just to clarify, I edited a little more up there.

About this point, well... You can view it like this, or you can view that the whole plot of canon Castlevania happened because Lords of Shadow happened. If it hadn't happened, then the whole time travelling would never happen. If something like this makes it's way into the game, then the whole plot of Lords of Shadow would have truly explained why does Death exist, why does Mathias become Dracula ("fate", if you will) and it could strenghten the "need for a Dark Lord" idea. Not even erasing a whole timeline could Dracula be effectivelly be averted, because fate calls for a dark lord. Maybe this could even build up to the final destruction of Dracula.

I always found it weird how Gabriel is referred to as "Dracul" and not "Dracula". In real life, "Dracul" was the title of the father of Dracula.

Why don't we keep Lords of Shadow in its own universe? It was never meant to be "canon", and I'm not too keen on seeing another convoluted plot twist try to take us back where IGA left off. Besides, I don't think MercurySteam would love to see its very own brainchild of a series essentially act as a massive prequel to a continuity from which it intentionally tried to distance itself.
Well, past Satan, I'm not sure how much more manipulative you can get... 

That's the whole point of my hypothesis. Maybe they never intended to distantiate themselves from the canon in the sense of being a "side-story in a parallel universe". Maybe they tried to distantiate themselves (by making a whole lot of things different) intentionally so to not give away the core plot twist that lies in the end of the road. Remember how Cox is always telling us how he wants to tell the origins of Dracula? He kind of ignores that this was already done. Why is that?

Also, why would they not like to make their own child as the true valid prequel for the series they proclaim to love so much? If I were to write something that could twist a plot THIS much, I would be pretty happy with myself.

Remember, this is only an hypothesis. I HIGHLY doubt he will do anything with even a semblance to what I said, but whatever...

[Inccubus]

Well, I will hypothesize.

Imagine that at the end of Lords of Shadow 2, Gabriel the Dracul becomes an even greater evil than Satan, threatening destroy the world effectivelly. Then a time traveller or some other sort of time manipulator(Hell, this could be Trevucard himself, wanting to give his father and himself a new destiny!) is sent back in time to prevent that Gabriel is ever abandoned as a bastard from the Cronqvist family, in hopes to avert his whole destiny (and even Zobek's own plans). By not being abandoned, Gabriel Cronqvist does not become Dracul, but his son in this new timeline, Mathias, becomes Dracula, and the rest is history.

I do not know how the rest would unfold, however. I think that for a time-travel plot tieing to the canon to really work, the time-traveller/manipulator would have to go even farther and prevent that the Brotherhood is even formed, so the Lords of Shadow are never even born, as they are the whole reason as to why Gabriel/Dracula even exists.

If this happened, the Bernhardts would not be driven out of their castle by Carmilla, leading to Walter becoming the Dark Lord (And turning Frankenstein into the vampoire joachim, maybe?). Gabriel would have Mathias in time for him to become a Knight (Remember the dates. Lords of Shadow is 1047, and Lament of Innocence is 1096. The dates do match), and then the rest would unfold as it did.

Let's not forget that, somewhere inside Berhardt Castle, there IS a time machine constructed by Frankenstein.

I'm starting to think too much here xD

Yeah... at that point they would have effectively ripped off the entire plot of Legacy of Kain.

[theplottwist]

Please someone delete this post.

I get really confused with the buttons sometimes u_U

Also, I edited the hypothesis again. Sorry, but I go fixing as I read it again after posting. My one bad habit...

[Ahasverus]

Yeah... at that point they would have effectively ripped off the entire plot of Legacy of Kain.

Well if they rip off the best story in the videogame medium I won't get mad.

[Slit_Zurifa]

Heh, also I've got a few other theories based on screenshots.
Remember this beast?

Look at its face and now compare it to the face(s) of the Gorgon Titan:

The Gorgon Titan is the result of a Fusion of all three Gorgon Sisters. I suppose that said creature in the first Picture is one of the three sisters.

Also look at this enemy:

I think that it is going to be the Toy Maker Boss battle. Look at the face of this creature. It's got the same facial Features as the Toy Maker. I guess he is Controlling this machine. Because let us be honest: Looking at the toy Maker I guess he couldn't stand a single Chance if he would fight Gabriel in his normal form as a human. 
Speaking of the Toy Maker I think that somehow his curse got lifted and he became human again. Now he seeks revenge and wants to kill Gabriel who misused his services to create evil machines.

[crisis]

Aside from time travelling, another unique way they could tie the timelines together is if they include St. Germain somewhere in the plot in LoS2. No, not their version of St. Germain. The same St. Germain as seen in Curse of Darkness. Have him in a similar role; a guide that can "observe, but not interfere." It would be cool fanservice, and just enough of a *winkwinknudgenudge* that despite being separate timelines/universes, there's still a single universal power watching over everything.

Compare it to Marvel comics: There's a character/entity known as the "Living Tribunal." Those familiar with comic books in general should know that there are several "alternate universes," parallel dimensions with varying outcomes (essentially why you see different "versions" of the same hero in many comic series). The Living Tribunal, however, remains unchanged; The Living Tribunal is a virtually omnipotent entity that oversees and maintains balance in the realities that constitute the Marvel Comics Multiverse, including the mainstream universe and ALL alternate universes/realities. Essentially, he/it has no counterparts as he is nigh omnipresent and thus simultaneously exists in all realities and time periods (but no, he/it IS NOT "God." The Living Tribunal is only surpassed by "The One Above All," which is essentially the "God" of the entire Marvel Universe). St. Germain can be something similar, coexisting in both the LoS-verse and the Akumajo Dracula-verse.

Just a thought