Topic: "The Dragon Returns" - Castlevania Lords of Shadow Sequel (HERE BE SPOILER INFO)

[Darkson]

In bram strokers Dracula, aka the original, Dracula transforms into a rat.

And the issues I presented only counted for .2 points each. As for the story, you may think,it is bad but that doesn't mean it truly is. As I said, it's pretty good. Not great, but not bad either.

Gabriel proves his statement from back when he first fought lucifer: god forgives and redemption is available to all who ask for it. He asks for redemption and is given his chance. He isn't dead, but he has reconciled with his son and won't be alone anymore. He still has to repent, but that can be for another game or so.

The tale is about Gabriel, no one else. It's why the castle sections are there to show more of his inner conflict and how his humanity and his corruption are at odds constantly.

[JayDominus]

I do like LoS in general... but LoS 2 really dropped the ball when it comes to story. It's all over the place - does he want redemption, does he want death, does he want revenge? What was that "when the moment comes, choose your family" moment was all about? Why does Vampire Killer kill Satan? What were the Masks all about? Why does Dracula suddenly not want to die in the end? Why is Alucard okay with his hated father still being alive? What happens to them now? Who's going to manage hell now? What did Drac see in the mirror before he shattered it? What was the Castle? Was it a mental projection or a real place? If it's a real place, where does it exist? If it's a mental projection, how does he bring the bald guy in there and how did he meet Agreus? Why doesn't Dracula question modern technology? Why don't people question Zobek being still alive? Why didn't Zobek and Dracula thought, for just a moment, that the scary looking b[bleep!]tch may just happen to be an acolyte? And if Dracula can take on Death and Satan, why can't he kill a single Golgoth Guard?

[Maedhros]

In bram strokers Dracula, aka the original, Dracula transforms into a rat.

And the issues I presented only counted for .2 points each. As for the story, you may think,it is bad but that doesn't mean it truly is. As I said, it's pretty good. Not great, but not bad either.

Gabriel proves his statement from back when he first fought lucifer: god forgives and redemption is available to all who ask for it. He asks for redemption and is given his chance. He isn't dead, but he has reconciled with his son and won't be alone anymore. He still has to repent, but that can be for another game or so.

The tale is about Gabriel, no one else. It's why the castle sections are there to show more of his inner conflict and how his humanity and his corruption are at odds constantly.

Seriously? That's cool, but it's still a shitty idea for gameplay. It can be cool on books and such, but for gameplay purposes... it sucks.

Seriously, I don't really care about Bram Stolker. I'm a fan of Castlevania only, not the Dracula mythos.

[Darkson]

I do like LoS in general... but LoS 2 really dropped the ball when it comes to story. It's all over the place - does he want redemption, does he want death, does he want revenge? What was that "when the moment comes, choose your family" moment was all about? Why does Vampire Killer kill Satan? What were the Masks all about? Why does Dracula suddenly not want to die in the end? Why is Alucard okay with his hated father still being alive? What happens to them now? Who's going to manage hell now? What did Drac see in the mirror before he shattered it? What was the Castle? Was it a mental projection or a real place? If it's a real place, where does it exist? If it's a mental projection, how does he bring the bald guy in there and how did he meet Agreus? Why doesn't Dracula question modern technology? Why don't people question Zobek being still alive? Why didn't Zobek and Dracula thought, for just a moment, that the scary looking b[bleep!]tch may just happen to be an acolyte? And if Dracula can take on Death and Satan, why can't he kill a single Golgoth Guard?

I'll answer this case by case

1. He initially wanted death, but throughout the game he develops through interactions with Marie and Trevor (who represent his humanity), victor, and alucard into wanting both revenge against zobek for his role in Marie's death, and lucifer for his manipulation of the events themself. It's why Gabriel is quite happy to kill zobek In a more personal manner.

2. The moment is to remind Gabriel that, if he wants to one day be reunited with Marie and reconcil with Trevor/alucard, he needs to remain true to his original self.

3. The vampire killer, due to being forged by the holiest if blacksmiths and having been somewhat further empowered by zobek, is able to slay the weakened lucifer (who is weaker on earth than in hell) due to being a creature of darkness, just like the lords of shadow.

4. The masks were more of a red herring than a true plot device. Lucifer used zobek to cause the spirits of the dead to be unable to ascend to heaven, to deny god and to, likely, eventually use them to become even more powerful than his father. The gods mask idea of power was implemented into zobeks mind to further this, and he was given the devil mask to gain easier control over others as well. It was all to further lucifers goal.

5. He's been reconciled with his son, so he is no longer alone. And, with alucard and having grown past the death phase, he wishes to repent for his actions and redeem himself.

6. Alucard knows that only Gabriel would be able to defeat lucifer, and, since Gabriel has been in seclusion for centuries, has likely mellowed out and isn't as angry as before at his father.

7. They will likely try to protect humanity. Who is to say that only zobek and such were the only threats? Other vampires can rise, demons or beings from the shadow realm as well. Not to mention, lucifer died on earth, so he's still in hell.

8. Lucifer. He died on earth, not hell. He's always weaker on earth and will return to hell upon death or defeat.

9. Likely saw that he may be able to truly redeem himself yet. Likely a sequel hook though.

10. The castle is a pocket dimension itself. It is from where Gabriel can store his powers and the denizens of his castle, which explains how the castle itself quickly repairs itself once he's around. Gabriel is able to bring others into it and things out of it, which is why the blood can escape from it and how he can bring the bald dude into it. It holds his humanity and powers as well. As for agreus, he likely traveled into the dimension to take revenge upon Gabriel for pans death. Agreus was an old god as well, so he did have some power.

11. Because modern tech is easy to grasp outside of going into its insides. You don't need to know how a light switch works to realize that you need to flip it to turn the lights on.

12. Only Gabriel knew zobek had seemingly died, and even then, he did ask how he was still alive. Zobek likely had a way to avoid dying due to being The Lord of the dead.

13. Because she was, previously, just looking like a normal human who, when apparently exposed to the gas, was transformed. They thought that she was transformed and as such, wasn't an acolyte.

14. The guards armor is indestructible. But they are quickly grown grunts with the mind of a child. They are only useful to serve as basic guards, nothing more.

[JayDominus]

I'll answer this case by case

1. He initially wanted death, but throughout the game he develops through interactions with Marie and Trevor (who represent his humanity), victor, and alucard into wanting both revenge against zobek for his role in Marie's death, and lucifer for his manipulation of the events themself. It's why Gabriel is quite happy to kill zobek In a more personal manner.

2. The moment is to remind Gabriel that, if he wants to one day be reunited with Marie and reconcil with Trevor/alucard, he needs to remain true to his original self.

3. The vampire killer, due to being forged by the holiest if blacksmiths and having been somewhat further empowered by zobek, is able to slay the weakened lucifer (who is weaker on earth than in hell) due to being a creature of darkness, just like the lords of shadow.

4. The masks were more of a red herring than a true plot device. Lucifer used zobek to cause the spirits of the dead to be unable to ascend to heaven, to deny god and to, likely, eventually use them to become even more powerful than his father. The gods mask idea of power was implemented into zobeks mind to further this, and he was given the devil mask to gain easier control over others as well. It was all to further lucifers goal.

5. He's been reconciled with his son, so he is no longer alone. And, with alucard and having grown past the death phase, he wishes to repent for his actions and redeem himself.

6. Alucard knows that only Gabriel would be able to defeat lucifer, and, since Gabriel has been in seclusion for centuries, has likely mellowed out and isn't as angry as before at his father.

7. They will likely try to protect humanity. Who is to say that only zobek and such were the only threats? Other vampires can rise, demons or beings from the shadow realm as well. Not to mention, lucifer died on earth, so he's still in hell.

8. Lucifer. He died on earth, not hell. He's always weaker on earth and will return to hell upon death or defeat.

9. Likely saw that he may be able to truly redeem himself yet. Likely a sequel hook though.

10. The castle is a pocket dimension itself. It is from where Gabriel can store his powers and the denizens of his castle, which explains how the castle itself quickly repairs itself once he's around. Gabriel is able to bring others into it and things out of it, which is why the blood can escape from it and how he can bring the bald dude into it. It holds his humanity and powers as well. As for agreus, he likely traveled into the dimension to take revenge upon Gabriel for pans death. Agreus was an old god as well, so he did have some power.

11. Because modern tech is easy to grasp outside of going into its insides. You don't need to know how a light switch works to realize that you need to flip it to turn the lights on.

12. Only Gabriel knew zobek had seemingly died, and even then, he did ask how he was still alive. Zobek likely had a way to avoid dying due to being The Lord of the dead.

13. Because she was, previously, just looking like a normal human who, when apparently exposed to the gas, was transformed. They thought that she was transformed and as such, wasn't an acolyte.

14. The guards armor is indestructible. But they are quickly grown grunts with the mind of a child. They are only useful to serve as basic guards, nothing more.

1. I take it Drac would gladly rip Zobek a new one anyway when Satan's out of the picture.
2. Yeah. AND IT GOES COMPLETELY NOWHERE.
3. But it's a VAMPIRE Killer. Not a Devil Killer. It can only kill Dracula because it's overcharged on vamps. Carmilla died from it because she was a vampire. And it was made by Gandolfi.
4. Makes sense... except for the fact that they do work in a way. God Mask works. You see dead people as if they are alive. Devil Mask works. It makes you kill your wife and that mute girl who can't shut the f[bleep!]ck up during a boss battle.
5. Does he? Never seen in the game itself.
6. Centuries of undeath are a good time to hold a grudge.
7. Yeah, would be nice... if it was in the game. Which it wasn't. It's just speculation.
8. Never stated in the game proper. From how it looks, he's gone forever.
9. Nice one. For the so-called trilogy finale.
10. Makes sense.
11. Words like "Pharmaceutical corporation" and "Antidote" when said by f[bleep!]cking Dracula are pretty hilarious. How does he even know them?
12. No, I was referring to a lore text that said that Zobek the general public of Castlevania City knows is 112 years old.
13. Only not, she didn't look anything like infected.
14. Indestructible? So Death, Leviathan and Lucifer aren't, but those guys are indestructible. Seriously, they should've made them fightable the second they introduced Chaos Claws.

[Zuljaras]

I guess I will be in the minority but I liked the game. I liked the boss fights. I even liked the end. The Death model was amazing for me

Now I need to revizit some places and get all the lore so I can read it in peace

[Darkson]

1. I take it Drac would gladly rip Zobek a new one anyway when Satan's out of the picture.
2. Yeah. AND IT GOES COMPLETELY NOWHERE.
3. But it's a VAMPIRE Killer. Not a Devil Killer. It can only kill Dracula because it's overcharged on vamps. Carmilla died from it because she was a vampire. And it was made by Gandolfi.
4. Makes sense... except for the fact that they do work in a way. God Mask works. You see dead people as if they are alive. Devil Mask works. It makes you kill your wife and that mute girl who can't shut the f[bleep!]ck up during a boss battle.
5. Does he? Never seen in the game itself.
6. Centuries of undeath are a good time to hold a grudge.
7. Yeah, would be nice... if it was in the game. Which it wasn't. It's just speculation.
8. Never stated in the game proper. From how it looks, he's gone forever.
9. Nice one. For the so-called trilogy finale.
10. Makes sense.
11. Words like "Pharmaceutical corporation" and "Antidote" when said by f[bleep!]cking Dracula are pretty hilarious. How does he even know them?
12. No, I was referring to a lore text that said that Zobek the general public of Castlevania City knows is 112 years old.
13. Only not, she didn't look anything like infected.
14. Indestructible? So Death, Leviathan and Lucifer aren't, but those guys are indestructible. Seriously, they should've made them fightable the second they introduced Chaos Claws.

1. Likely, due to Gabriel's powers.

2. Not exactly. At the end of the game, he could've easily killed alucard and satan together. Instead, he waits and lets satan make the first move, saving his son when, old dracul, would've just killed him.

3. Lore wise, the weapon is called "the combat cross". The stake at the end is the "vampire killer". It is a holy weapon useful against the creature of darkness first, not just a vampire killer. It's why he was able to kill corneal, the titans, the dracolich, pan (an old god), and others in the first game.

4. They do work, but plot wise they are a red herring. The god mask just lets you see spirits as if they were alive. The devil mask allows others to control you.

5. Yes they do, like when they team up to take out zobek and lucifer. And when alucard asks what they do now.

6. And centuries of undeath are also a good time to come to terms with the past and learn to forgive.

7. You asked for what they could do now. Half your questions are in concern as to what happens in the future.

8. Lucifer died on earth in the last game. Gabriel broke his neck and caused a holy explosion. In this game, he comes back and dies on earth again. It is safe to assume he's back in hell. Kill him in hell though, and oblivion is his likely destination.

9. It is a lackluster ending, but is not likely the finale. Just because mercury steam is done, doesn't mean konami is. They can easily have someone like platinum games work on it.

10. Thank you

11. Gabriel was clearly awake for centuries, so he likely knew some words and such. Just look at the credits scene from 1.

12. People can reach the age of 120 these days. Since the modern times for the people of lords of shadow is more advance then ours, it is safe to say that his age isn't that unusual to them. What with biogas and such.

13. Yes she did. She had a twisted head and malformed mouth, just like them. Just because she wasn't spitting green goo, doesn't mean she couldn't pass for infected.

14. I agree with you on this one, still kinda minor though

[Nagumo]

got a good laugh out of how people are overly excited at this game being mediocre


no wonder IGA bailed

If you're going to snark, at least say something that makes sense.

[JayDominus]

1. Likely, due to Gabriel's powers.

2. Not exactly. At the end of the game, he could've easily killed alucard and satan together. Instead, he waits and lets satan make the first move, saving his son when, old dracul, would've just killed him.

3. Lore wise, the weapon is called "the combat cross". The stake at the end is the "vampire killer". It is a holy weapon useful against the creature of darkness first, not just a vampire killer. It's why he was able to kill corneal, the titans, the dracolich, pan (an old god), and others in the first game.

4. They do work, but plot wise they are a red herring. The god mask just lets you see spirits as if they were alive. The devil mask allows others to control you.

5. Yes they do, like when they team up to take out zobek and lucifer. And when alucard asks what they do now.

6. And centuries of undeath are also a good time to come to terms with the past and learn to forgive.

7. You asked for what they could do now. Half your questions are in concern as to what happens in the future.

8. Lucifer died on earth in the last game. Gabriel broke his neck and caused a holy explosion. In this game, he comes back and dies on earth again. It is safe to assume he's back in hell. Kill him in hell though, and oblivion is his likely destination.

9. It is a lackluster ending, but is not likely the finale. Just because mercury steam is done, doesn't mean konami is. They can easily have someone like platinum games work on it.

10. Thank you

11. Gabriel was clearly awake for centuries, so he likely knew some words and such. Just look at the credits scene from 1.

12. People can reach the age of 120 these days. Since the modern times for the people of lords of shadow is more advance then ours, it is safe to say that his age isn't that unusual to them. What with biogas and such.

13. Yes she did. She had a twisted head and malformed mouth, just like them. Just because she wasn't spitting green goo, doesn't mean she couldn't pass for infected.

14. I agree with you on this one, still kinda minor though

2. Yes it does. He didn't kill Alucard because he never wanted to. He was horrified at the fact that the guy he just murdered is his son and tried his best to rejuvenate him. There was no choice, he just played bait and switch with Satan. No dilemma, no nothing, he got his bloody cake and ate it.
3. The Combat Cross is just that, a Cross with a chain whip in it. Considering how every Belmont in LoS had one, it's got to be a standard issue Brotherhood weapon for its special warriors. Cornell was staked with his own weapon, the Titans died because their runes were messed. Got nothing on Pan. Combat Cross was only important in LoS 2 up to that point because it had The Vampire Killer stake and it was the only thing that could kill Drac. No mention of Satan.
4. OK.
5. I was talking about him wishing to be a good guy now. Does he? Never mentioned in the game.
6. A fine point. Just like mine.
7. Because that's what the ending - the "grand finale" of the f[bleeping]king trilogy failed to provide - closure. It's Mass Effect 3 all over again.
8. Drac and Alu certainly look sure that he's gone for good. And there was no explosion this time, just a winged corpse.
9. Or they can just bring back the old continuity which a lot of people demand (but I'm really afraid of it). But a lot of PR mentioned that it's the end of LoS, once and for all.
11. He seems recently awakened, otherwise why is he so dry? If he was awake for such a long time, he surely would have a drink by then.
12. City Memorial addresses his age as unusually good and praises his good heart
13. No-no-no. The infected were completely messed up, she only had the head and scales.

[Viskod]

Gabriel's combat cross is unique. There are lots of standard issue reproductions but his is special because it was the original forged by Gandolfi himself with holy water and the nails and wood from the cross of Christ.

The word antidote isn't new, he'd know what that means. He doesn't have to concern himself with what the word pharmaceutical means.

Dracula wanted to die because he had lost all hope, until Alucard approaches him with the plan to use the sword forged from the stake of the vampire killer to put Dracula to sleep until Satans acolytes were ready to summon him so that they would lose all trace of his power and think he was obliterated in that holy explosion and no he wouldn't end upon hell because Cox has already stated that in this canon death for Gabriel would mean total oblivion.

He still wants to die at the start of the modern day segment because being in that deep sleep fragmented his memory and he doesn't remember his conversation with Alucard or the plan, which is why he can fool Zobek.

Alucard doesn't want to kill Gabriel because he obviously found out about Zobek and Satan and realizes that his father was kind of screwed over and not just totally evil.

The Golgoth guards use deadly guns that mix magic and science. Unless you're going to argue for the game not having a life bar period and nothing in it should be able to kill Gabriel period so he should have infinite life don't arbitrarily argue for one thing to not be able to harm him.

[JayDominus]

Gabriel's combat cross is unique. There are lots of standard issue reproductions but his is special because it was the original forged by Gandolfi himself with holy water and the nails and wood from the cross of Christ.

Fair point, it has been quite some time since I read flavor text in LOS1.

The Golgoth guards use deadly guns that mix magic and science. Unless you're going to argue for the game not having a life bar period and nothing in it should be able to kill Gabriel period so he should have infinite life don't arbitrarily argue for one thing to not be able to harm him.

There's a fine line between being able to harm him and killing him in one hit. He is the Prince of Darkness. He SHOULD be able to take those mothereffers in an open fight.

[Viskod]

In the areas in which you find them it always serves his purpose to get past them quickly or quietly or as I. The train section to get to the front of the train and avoid them.

There's no reason why Dracula can't be quiet and cunning, it gives us a chance to see more of the things that the myth is if the character includes instead if just punching dudes.

That being said I would have loved to be able to use possession in combat.

[JayDominus]

Except for the Acolyte area. Nergal knew he was coming, so there was no purpose in sneaking.

[Maedhros]

People really trying to defend golgoth guards, REALLY??

[Viskod]

Nergal did not know he was coming, which is why Gabriel and Alucard stood out of sight when Victor died, so he wouldn't see them and they would keep the element of surprise. Also referenced by his first words being "Do my eyes deceive me?" Because he couldn't believe Gabriel was there.

Even if he did know Gabriel was coming why would Gabriel want to cause a big ruckus on the floors below and let him know he was in the building and on the way, Zobek warned Gabriel ahead if time that this "rival" would prove very dangerous so it would be stupid to not keep the element if surprise for as long as possible.