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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => Fan Stuff => Topic started by: Zydalc on May 07, 2017, 09:35:56 PM

Title: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Zydalc on May 07, 2017, 09:35:56 PM
I wonder if cheat codes are possible in fan games especially LeCarde Chronicles? Since both of those games are just too hard for me to play to be honest not to mention I don't have that much patience for them either.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Aceearly1993 on May 07, 2017, 10:07:07 PM
For LC2 You can modify save data by notepad (the built in notepad function in Windows) and change the corresponding value (weapon, enemy chart, ability, etc.) to achieve (sort of) save hack purpose

I don't quite know the situation of LC1, but the difficulty is really not that worse (only count normal & easy; hard mode is a whole new story though) I guess Cheat engine helps?
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Zydalc on May 07, 2017, 10:18:32 PM
For LC2 You can modify save data by notepad (the built in notepad function in Windows) and change the corresponding value (weapon, enemy chart, ability, etc.) to achieve (sort of) save hack purpose

How I do that or rather I mean where are the save data at?

I don't quite know the situation of LC1, but the difficulty is really not that worse (only count normal & easy; hard mode is a whole new story though) I guess Cheat engine helps?

Where can this cheat engine be found?
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Dracula9 on May 07, 2017, 10:38:39 PM
Or, you know, you could just git gud.

Definitely not a massive insult to us devs or anything when players would rather cheat their way to victory before actually earning it at least once.

This is just another nail in the coffin as to why I'm encoding the fuck out of all of Umbra's data, so all our hard work doesn't go to waste on people too impatient to learn and enjoy what we fucking made for them.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Zydalc on May 07, 2017, 11:38:13 PM
Or, you know, you could just git gud.

Definitely not a massive insult to us devs or anything when players would rather cheat their way to victory before actually earning it at least once.

This is just another nail in the coffin as to why I'm encoding the fuck out of all of Umbra's data, so all our hard work doesn't go to waste on people too impatient to learn and enjoy what we fucking made for them.

This is where the main problem lies with that type of thinking, forcing players to play a certain way just makes you into a asshole and a elitist.

It's not like everyone here is a expert player around these parts and you're simply alienating them by leaving them out and throwing them under the bus by sending a message that "This game is for elites only and if you can't beat it then this game not for you and play something else lol" which is rather a sign of exclusiveness.

Thing is people use cheats is because not all of us have the patience going through all that tedious trouble and they just want to see the end of the game and not only that, they just want to want to have fun instead of suffering through their first impressons. Tell you the truth I've hardly gotten past the first areas in both LeCarde games and I've already given up knowing that the rest of the game is not only beyond my ability (since it's more about the controls, the timing and sometimes you have to be very lucky) but it's only going to get worse from there. Encoding data like that is just self centered, cruel and unfair which is rather sadistic.

Final of all I hate this "Pure True Gamer" mentality here.

(Final Note: I miss the days where cheat codes used to be more common and easily available (and plus more open) but nowadays they're pretty much nonexistent to make way for achievements except for certain Action-RPG games).
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Dracula9 on May 08, 2017, 12:04:56 AM
Hahaha, you seem to have a wrong impression. So let me enlighten you.

-All the countless hours of debate and deliberation and design planning, from what enemies are in what rooms to where we place upgrades and items, and how frequently they show up.

-All the balancing of what ability or item is acquired when, what it does, where it's useful and when, and how that affects progression and backtracking and balancing elsewhere in the game.

-All the work of data structuring for ability and item progression.

All of that and more, gone and for naught the instant a player decides to fuck with the save file and cheat their way through.

Call it elitism or whatever the fuck else you want, you're disgustingly wrong all the same.

I couldn't care less what players do if they've beaten the thing already. All's fair game after that. I'll cheat my ass off for fun and some good laughs--after I've finished the title fairly and can properly appreciate what it's like having maxed stats and all the gear from the start. I even have cheat and spoof modes in mind for Umbra that would break the game's curve otherwise--not that I expected you to know that, but it just goes to show why making half-baked assumptions about developer intent isn't a bright idea.

But unless a game is so poorly designed and balanced that cheating is basically mandated to succeed at it, players who openly admit to wanting to cheat because it's either too difficult for them (whether or not it's bullshit/fake difficulty or the player's own lack of skill is another matter altogether) or because they're just impatient are disregarding all the work we do because they want to beat it faster and not progress the intended way.

You acting like me, as a dev, being pissed off at wanton and open-admittance cheaters for flat-out stating "I don't want to play the game properly because I'm impatient", is somehow equating to "I'm pissy because you're not playing 'my' way" is unwarranted and rather crass.

Reality check, nothing's further from the truth. That you immediately went on the defensive and threw straw-grasping insults/assumptions says enough about your intentions. You cannot justify your wanting to cheat out of impatience, so you try to turn it around on the people who made the shit in the first place.

What a fucking joke. I've made heated arguments in the name of not forcing players to play a certain way, and you're welcome to check with Plot if you don't believe me.

You are too lazy or impatient (or both, I don't know) to properly learn a given title's mechanics and difficulty curves (once again, whether or not these things are fairly balanced or artificially-supplemented with fake difficulty elements is another matter), so you turn to cheating because you just want to see the ending without having earned it yourself.

Plenty of ways to do this without cheating. Watch an LP if you just want to see the ending.

But don't fucking sit there and make bullshit accusations like you're some oppressed minority against the big evil MLGers (which, spoiler alert, I'm not, but cute assumption nonetheless) who want to be evil bastards.

It's fucking Castlevania, not Dark Souls. The shit's structured to make players think before they act, and punishments aren't nearly as bad. You get a Game Over and lose the stuff you got without saving--it's not like Souls where you lose *everything* and run the risk of losing it for good if you don't get it back. Gold can be refarmed/reacquired, items can be refound, enemies can be slain again. Hardly the stuff of nightmares, and LC and LC2 kicked my ass more times than I care to admit (one such occasion back in LC1 instigated a screen punch, even, so don't sit there and talk to me like I don't know what gamer rage feels like). Don't see me cheating my way through it.

If you would rather cheat than actually improve at the game's mechanics, then just as you have every right to play however you want, I too have every right to tell you to git gud. And that means exactly what it says on the tin--"get good." Play, fuck up, think, learn, improve, repeat. This is how it was for years and years before easy editing and hacking became laymanized, and nobody called the devs evil or cruel for it (generally-speaking). And yes, I'm acutely aware of "git gud"'s meme status as a sign of Dark Souls elitism, but no, that's not its perpetual state of being. You wouldn't throw a fit if your boss told you to get good at parts of your job you weren't very good at, so I'm sure you can understand the difference in how the phrase can be used.

You want to cheat because you're impatient, lazy, incompetent, or something in-between. You've admitted this much already.

As someone who spends more hours and work and forethought into design that your mind can even fucking fathom (did you know that for every progress report post that goes into the Umbra thread, there are weeks and months of discussion, debate, argument, and concessions for the features you see? Or did you just assume it magically happened overnight and took no work at all?), this is more or less the equivalent of setting your own house on fire to collect the insurance and buy a new house because you didn't want to fix the plumbing in the old one. If I'm gonna devote years of my life to making something for people to enjoy, then I have every right to take countermeasures against those would would wantonly disregard all the work that went into it because they're too fucking impatient to actually experience the full product.

So go on, you self-righteous fuck. Call me whatever you please. Make your baseless insults and "arguments." All it does is solidify my reasons for protecting my work from people who don't even value it or the efforts that created it. And if something as small as save file protection bothers you, you're really gonna hate the other antihacking measures I have planned (though none are set in stone).

But while you're free to do whatever you please, if you can't understand why a creator would have a problem with people happily breaking into their shit because they want to play it the easy way and disregard all the work that creator put forth into making the thing, then there's nothing more to talk about.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: theplottwist on May 08, 2017, 12:17:31 AM
Thing is people use cheats is because not all of us have the patience going through all that tedious trouble and they just want to see the end of the game. Tell you the truth I've hardly gotten past the first areas in both LeCarde games and I've already given up knowing that the rest of the game is not only beyond my ability (since it's more about the controls, the timing and sometimes you have to be very lucky) but it's only going to get worse from there.

Are you playing on controller or keyboard? Because if you're playing on keyboard, I'll tell you that this is masochism and you should try with a controller ASAP.

If you're playing on controller, I kiiiiiinda get your point, but I wanna add this game was made with Classicvania mentality. D9 was harsh and I don't agree with the way he's delivering the point, but there isn't much that can be said. Games with a Classicvania feel in mind assume the "get good or give up" instance from the get-go. It's kinda expected from the player to already be familiar with it. If I could give you hints, try using subweapons a lot (because even the goddamn KNIFE is powerful in this game) and try boosting your attack a lot with V.V. powers.

Codes are possible (press "H" three times on the Title Screen to see something mildly interesting) but making one to turn you invincible or something would be up to Mig I think...

Quote
Encoding data like that is just self centered, cruel and unfair which is rather sadistic.

I just want to comment on that a bit. LC2 doesn't have encoded save files, so I'm assuming you're referring to Umbra, since D9 mentioned it.

Encoding the save data isn't "self-centered, cruel and unfair". What would actually be self-centered, cruel and unfair is creating a game that only a handful select few can beat with NO WAY to smoothen out the difficulty curve or without providing any chance for the player to actually learn. And EVEN THEN this is still debatable, since we're not exactly considering here the audience intended by the dev for the game. Think "I Wanna Be The Guy" or "I Wanna Be The Boshy". THESE are sadistic games whose most of the fun-factor is derived from watching others play it and get increasingly frustrated and distressed -- the definition of sadism.

Umbra's save is being encoded to the best possible for a couple reasons more than simply "won't allow the player to cheat" reasons. Certain stuff on the save data can actually corrupt your progress entirely or break the game in unexpected ways. It's encoded to avoid cheating to a certain degree too, of course, but most of all, so the player doesn't get to skip all the carefully crafted progression "because they want to see the ending" and ends up breaking everything in the process. If you want just to see the ending, why not watch a Let's Play?

It's less of a "Pure True Gamer" mindset, and more of a "Please, On Your First Playthrough, Try Treating This Game As It Was Designed To Be Treated". It's like the bride not letting the groom see them while they're getting ready to marry: They want the groom to see them at their highest beauty.

But fine, let's take the "Each Player Enjoys The Game As They Want" adage to its extreme: Why should the dev provide tools to suit every single need the player base has? This goes back to my "debatable" above: Maybe, the game not having a feature that suits you, says that you are not the intended audience for this game.

You know, speedrunners derive their fun from beating a given game as fast as humanly possible. And this is ABSOLUTELLY OK. But why should the dev provide Speedrunning tools within the game? If a speedrunner complains the game is not "speedrunnable enough", is he justified in calling the dev sadistic, elitist, cruel and self-centered because the dev is not willing to provide this player with the tools for them to derive their fun with?
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Zydalc on May 08, 2017, 12:35:59 AM
Here's the thing, there's nothing wrong getting good but when the levels are designed on pure luck, do you think it's worth playing? Since even if you keep trying but there's a point you start loosing your patience and all you want to do is see the next level and you can only try so much it's not worth the trouble anymore.

Also another thing too let's say for instance when you never played Castlevania before and it's in development and you find out about it and now all the sudden you're watching the guy that made it talk to a potential fan/customer who maybe wants a few features, or debug mode in, by screaming at them, would you play this game? Course not and I'm talking about D9's Umbra here.

Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Dracula9 on May 08, 2017, 12:40:15 AM
By all means, tell us how to create a fangame with a clear target audience be readily flawless to the point that even non-CV players will be playing it as skillfully as series veterans.

Actually, scratch that. Tell us how to create a game that accounts for literally everybody and ensures that absolutely no one on the planet now or ever will ever have any problems with it.

Go on. Take your time. I'll wait.

Here's the thing, there's nothing wrong getting good but when the levels are designed on pure luck, do you think it's worth playing? Since even if you keep trying but there's a point you start loosing your patience and all you want to do is see the next level and you can only try so much it's not worth the trouble anymore.

Nine times out of ten, what you call "luck" is merely a question of player skill and their ability to decipher the clues for success laid out before them. This then raises the question of whether those clues are even well-implemented, but as I've been saying individual quality is another matter and one that is not currently relevant to the principles being debated.

Also another thing too let's say for instance when you never played Castlevania before and it's in development and you find out about it and now all the sudden you're watching the guy that made it talk to a potential fan/customer who maybe wants a few features, or debug mode in, by screaming at them, would you play this game? Course not and I'm talking about D9's Umbra here.

You're being "screamed at" because you threw out insults and accusations when called out on wanting to cheat. Don't twist the issue here. You get what you give, and if you're butthurt at how I'm addressing you, then maybe you should look at how you're addressing me. The other hundreds of fans following the project don't get "screamed at," because when they offer up feedback and opinions, most of the time they're some measure of considerate of developer positions. Feel free to check the thread or any pages it's been posted/discussed on wherein we devs are directly involved if you don't believe me there, either.

"I want to edit your data files and cheat my way through the game you spent more hours than I can count working on" is not a "feature." It's you wanting to be lazy and skip everything. Again, quality notwithstanding, but there is very little likelihood Umbra will be of poor quality with the amount of forethought, design planning, and slated control testing we have on the table.

Boss Rush mode is a feature. Alternate players and costumes are features. Debug mode is a feature (and, by the way, why would non-tester players even need access to this?). "I want to edit the data and get everything from the start" is not.

Looks more and more to me like your argument hinges on "BUT I WANNA/ BUT I DON'T WANNA" rather than anything cohesive, since a lot of it deals with vague what-ifs and scenarios that are, practically speaking, absolutely impossible to manage completely. But I could be wrong, and willing to be proven such.

But you can (hopefully) understand my believability of that outcome when you've just invoked the "BUT THE CUSTOMER'S ALWAYS RIGHT YOU CAN'T TREAT THEM LIKE THAT" argument to antagonize the dev getting on your case for blatantly wanting to cheat.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Zydalc on May 08, 2017, 12:44:10 AM
By all means, tell us how to create a fangame with a clear target audience be readily flawless to the point that even non-CV players will be playing it as skillfully as series veterans.

Actually, scratch that. Tell us how to create a game that accounts for literally everybody and ensures that absolutely no one on the planet now or ever will ever have any problems with it.

Go on. Take your time. I'll wait.

Then again it's also a mistake to treat your game as if it's like the greatest thing in the universe like it's God's gift or something which implies extreme arrogance and possible narcissism.

If you're planning on making such a great game then it must include both new comers and veterans but if you only make it for veterans only then talk about alienation.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: theplottwist on May 08, 2017, 12:52:11 AM
Here's the thing, there's nothing wrong getting good but when the levels are designed on pure luck, do you think it's worth playing?

Are they, though?

Many people have beaten LC2. Many of these people have developed careful strategies to take out strong enemies, while others have figured out other means (stacking up on potions, buffing Efrain up to ridiculous levels of strength).

Are you saying all these people beat the game on pure luck?

Quote
Since even if you keep trying but there's a point you start loosing your patience and all you want to do is see the next level and you can only try so much it's not worth the trouble anymore.

The answer to that is to seek another strategy that fits you. The game is FAR from impossible. If I may be so bold, I'd even say this game pales in comparison to original Classicvanias on the difficulty department.

Quote
Also another thing too let's say for instance when you never played Castlevania before and it's in development and you find out about it and now all the sudden you're watching the guy that made it talk like this guy to a potential fan/customer who maybe wants a few features, or debug mode in, and the developer just screams at them, would you play this game? Course not and I'm talking about D9's Umbra here.

D9 is a developer of Umbra, but he does not have the final word on Umbra. I have. Am I screaming at you? So now you have two choices: Listen to the guy who you're understanding as "screaming" or not. Or listen to both.

That said, D9 may not have the final word on Umbra in general, but he does have a very good notion of design and the final word on his area of the project. And his pride as game developer. When you start telling a game developer with a considerably longer experience than you what he should do or not because "you want this and that", you will sound a bit insulting even if you don't mean to. The developer is already thinking of you during the development process all the time. The game is already being designed around its proposal for you to learn it and have a good time with it.

Do you really need the save file's code to be written on a language YOU understand to enjoy the game? Of course not. This part doesn't concern you -- it concerns the devs only. The proposal of the devs is to make you a game, and not to make you an easily editable save file. The chef is not beholden to the obligation of teaching you how to prepare lasagna to accomplish his proposal: Give you a (FREE) lasagna so you can enjoy it. But some people hate lasagna and want the chef to put French Fries in it. He will not, and this is life.

Again, I repeat: I think D9 is being too harsh, and I don't agree with the delivery. But he does have a point: LC2 might just not be for you if you can't surmount the obstacles Mig created and the majority was able to overcome.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Dracula9 on May 08, 2017, 12:52:55 AM
Nobody's treating anything like a godsend. I'm illustrating the reality of how making a product that pleases everyone is impossible.

Kindly stop with all the rude-ass assumptions.

Quote
1-That said, D9 may not have the final word on Umbra in general, but he does have a very good notion of design and the final word on his area of the project. And his pride as game developer.

2-When you start telling a game developer with a considerably longer experience than you what he should do or not because "you want this and that", you will sound a bit insulting even if you don't mean to.

3-The developer is already thinking of you during the development process all the time. The game is already being designed around its proposal for you to learn it and have a good time with it.

1 - More or less. Kind of a pain in the ass to be patronized and antagonized like I don't have an inkling of what I'm doing.

2 - Quite more than "a bit."

3 - Precisely why 2 is more than "a bit."
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Chernabogue on May 08, 2017, 12:55:14 AM
I finished LC2 on keyboard without cheating or even rebinding controls and I don't consider myself a "good" gamer. Some parts are very hard, but you just need to be patient, learn patterns or just backtrack a bit and buy items.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Zydalc on May 08, 2017, 01:00:49 AM
You're being "screamed at" because you threw out insults and accusations when called out on wanting to cheat. Don't twist the issue here. You get what you give, and if you're butthurt at how I'm addressing you, then maybe you should look at how you're addressing me. The other hundreds of fans following the project don't get "screamed at," because when they offer up feedback and opinions, most of the time they're some measure of considerate of developer positions. Feel free to check the thread or any pages it's been posted/discussed on wherein we devs are directly involved if you don't believe me there, either.

"I want to edit your data files and cheat my way through the game you spent more hours than I can count working on" is not a "feature." It's you wanting to be lazy and skip everything. Again, quality notwithstanding, but there is very little likelihood Umbra will be of poor quality with the amount of forethought, design planning, and slated control testing we have on the table.

Boss Rush mode is a feature. Alternate players and costumes are features. Debug mode is a feature (and, by the way, why would non-tester players even need access to this?). "I want to edit the data and get everything from the start" is not.

Looks more and more to me like your argument hinges on "BUT I WANNA/ BUT I DON'T WANNA" rather than anything cohesive, since a lot of it deals with vague what-ifs and scenarios that are, practically speaking, absolutely impossible to manage completely. But I could be wrong, and willing to be proven such.

But you can (hopefully) understand my believability of that outcome when you've just invoked the "BUT THE CUSTOMER'S ALWAYS RIGHT YOU CAN'T TREAT THEM LIKE THAT" argument to antagonize the dev getting on your case for blatantly wanting to cheat.

CW: Victim Blaiming, implied rape, verbal abuse.

Are they, though?

Many people have beaten LC2. Many of these people have developed careful strategies to take out strong enemies, while others have figured out other means (stacking up on potions, buffing Efrain up to ridiculous levels of strength).

Are you saying all these people beat the game on pure luck?

The answer to that is to seek another strategy that fits you. The game is FAR from impossible. If I may be so bold, I'd even say this game pales in comparison to original Classicvanias on the difficulty department.

D9 is a developer of Umbra, but he does not have the final word on Umbra. I have. Am I screaming at you? So now you have two choices: Listen to the guy who you're understanding as "screaming" or not. Or listen to both.

That said, D9 may not have the final word on Umbra in general, but he does have a very good notion of design and the final word on his area of the project. And his pride as game developer. When you start telling a game developer with a considerably longer experience than you what he should do or not because "you want this and that", you will sound a bit insulting even if you don't mean to. The developer is already thinking of you during the development process all the time. The game is already being designed around its proposal for you to learn it and have a good time with it.

Do you really need the save file's code to be written on a language YOU understand to enjoy the game? Of course not. This part doesn't concern you -- it concerns the devs only. The proposal of the devs is to make you a game, and not to make you an easily editable save file. The chef is not beholden to the obligation of teaching you how to prepare lasagna to accomplish his proposal: Give you a (FREE) lasagna so you can enjoy it. But some people hate lasagna and want the chef to put French Fries in it. He will not, and this is life.

Again, I repeat: I think D9 is being too harsh, and I don't agree with the delivery. But he does have a point: LC2 might just not be for you if you can't surmount the obstacles Mig created and the majority was able to overcome.

While you're making some interesting points here, of course I'm only speaking about on the behalf of both LC1 and LC2 and how the game is designed which is rather tedious to get through especially on their first try.

Thing is for example when I play a fan made WAD for Doom for example, I usually turn on God Mode, All Weapons, etc since majority of the fan made wads are just too difficult to complete for obvious reasons if you let the "UV Max" videos fool you.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Dracula9 on May 08, 2017, 01:02:11 AM
Present a better argument for me to work with if you have a problem with the current, instead of hiding behind buzzwords you don't even understand properly. I cannot work with those when they are misrepresented. You clearly respond better to Plot telling you the same things in a softer tone, so I'll be more than glad to forgive and forget if you give me something I can provide those softer tones to. There's no point in speaking if this remains a trading of insults.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Zydalc on May 08, 2017, 01:04:31 AM
Go back to tumblr if you don't have the spine to be told why you're wrong.

Present a better argument for me to work with if you have a problem with the current instead of hiding behind buzzwords you don't even understand properly. Fucking coward.

The red flags were all there crystal clear and I don't think you're worth responding to anymore while acting like abusive toxic trash like the rest of your kind does.

Sorry I won't be playing your Umbra game after this.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Dracula9 on May 08, 2017, 01:07:42 AM
Shame, since even I decided that last one was too harsh and altered it to be more respectable.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Zydalc on May 08, 2017, 02:20:12 PM
Present a better argument for me to work with if you have a problem with the current, instead of hiding behind buzzwords you don't even understand properly. I cannot work with those when they are misrepresented. You clearly respond better to Plot telling you the same things in a softer tone, so I'll be more than glad to forgive and forget if you give me something I can provide those softer tones to. There's no point in speaking if this remains a trading of insults.

Here's the problem, you seem to be insulted when cheats are used in your games, you can put them in but people don't have to use them which is exactly the point.

Besides why do you even care when someone else does something with your game?

I also find it interesting that you seem to think that I'm hurling insults at you but you fail to realize that you were the one that came swinging over my comments total gungho in the first place and I had to defend myself and call you out on your behavior which you somehow find that "insulting" to you which sounds like psychological projection here.

All I thought I was doing was asking if cheat codes WERE possible. I'm just saying that having options are nice, doesn't mean I'll ever need them, but it's just nice to know they're there if I want and/or need them. You can put in all sorts of options to make the game(s) easier for those of us with disabilities of any kind, or those of us who are having trouble, but guess what, it's just that, an option, nobody has to use them, but the people who do will surely appreciate it.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Belmontoya on May 08, 2017, 03:06:19 PM
Here's the problem, you seem to be insulted when cheats are used in your games, you can put them in but people don't have to use them which is exactly the point.

Besides why do you even care when someone else does something with your game?

It's impossible to please everyone.

Mig and the rest of us are happy with what we made.

It's humanly impossible to please everyone and make porridge that's just right for every bear.

Very sorry that you don't have the patience for it man. But the game is what mig wanted it to be and I think that's great.

This is not an elitist attitude. This is just life.

I'm terrible at bowling. My 5 year old can beat me.

I don't get pissed and ask if I can walk down the lane and kick the pins over. And I don't go on forums to complain about whoever invented bowling.

Again.. sorry!

Please let's get along!
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Zydalc on May 08, 2017, 04:05:26 PM
It's impossible to please everyone.

Mig and the rest of us are happy with what we made.

It's humanly impossible to please everyone and make porridge that's just right for every bear.

Very sorry that you don't have the patience for it man. But the game is what mig wanted it to be and I think that's great.

This is not an elitist attitude. This is just life.

I'm terrible at bowling. My 5 year old can beat me.

I don't get pissed and ask if I can walk down the lane and kick the pins over. And I don't go on forums to complain about whoever invented bowling.

Again.. sorry!

Please let's get along!

"Impossible to please everyone" is not a excuse when you're making a fan game, like what are you're originally making this for and why? Also a video/computer game is not the same thing as bowling either since the latter is a public accessed sport not a application/program sitting on someone's personal space that anyone can manipulate to what suits them.

Also the part bolded is where the main problem lies, it is elitism and you can't normalize calling it "life" hence going back to the main point of my above question which really doesn't matter anyways since the answer is obvious after all.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Belmontoya on May 08, 2017, 04:14:32 PM
"Impossible to please everyone" is not a excuse when you're making a fan game, like what are you're originally making this for and why? Also a video/computer game is not the same thing as bowling either since the latter is a public accessed sport not a application/program sitting on someone's personal space that anyone can manipulate to what suits them.

Also the part bolded is where the main problem lies, it is elitism and you can't normalize calling it "life" hence going back to the main point of my above question which really doesn't matter anyways since the answer is obvious after all.

I think you're confusing us with someone who owes you something.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: theplottwist on May 08, 2017, 04:30:57 PM
"Impossible to please everyone" is not a excuse when you're making a fan game, like what are you're originally making this for and why?

OK no, stop.

It is OBJECTIVELLY impossible to please everyone. It's not an excuse. Even if you're making a game to please the biggest number of people possible, you can't possibly hope to please everyone.

The reasons for displeasing will vary from system incompatibility to game genre to game flow to a million other things that the dev shouldn't be expected to cover 100%. Some of these things are the dev's fault, some of them are not. Things that displease the majority of the target audience are a good hint that it's the dev's fault, things that displease one or two people who can't produce objective, reproducible results, is a good hint of the reverse.

Example: You not making it through an specific part of the game because "it's too hard" when the overwhelming majority of people have beaten it tells me that this might be and issue with your skills, not with the game. You're not reporting a reproducible bug that makes the game objectivelly unwinnable -- you're saying it's too hard for you. You ARE allowed to ask for a method to beat it easier, but you can't expect the dev to follow your demands. On the eyes of the dev, you're ONE person out of thousands that had no problem with the game's difficulty.

Can you bring here an objective reason (or at least something very easily observable) that would tip the balance on your favor to add cheat codes to the game? If you can't, why would the dev add your demand to the game?

Another example: Earlier this year, Mig posted here a demo of the game. We played it thoroughly and pointed out that:

1- Platforms were mingling too much with the background due to low contrast.
2- Pegs were difficult to catch on due to small hitbox.

These issues were fixed, because we provided actual evidence of the problem happening over and over again. So, saying "it's too hard" DOES work, when you can actually demonstrate the issue in detail.

Quote
Also a video/computer game is not the same thing as bowling either since the latter is a public accessed sport not a application/program sitting on someone's personal space that anyone can manipulate to what suits them.

That is also not how it works. A game is not just a magic pile of data that does whatever you want. It requires "coding" and "engine", complex things that while are INTENDED to run on the most environments possible smoothly, it is impossible to account for them to work on every single possible combination of system/program that will arise from public testing. Some players will try to play the game on a toaster, and then complain it doesn't work. Some players will play it on a PC brought to them from the future by time travellers and complain the game doesn't work.

They can complain, but the dev CAN'T meet their expectations some times. Specially when we're talking of games made on no budget (LC2's case). If even AAA games, with all their resources, can't meet this criteria of pleasing everyone, why should games made by indie devs? The indie dev will try their best most of the time, but sometimes their best just isn't enough, and what can be done is go on with your life.

Like, again, I see where you're coming from and I understand the mindset. But it's also clear to me that you do not understand exactly how a game software is made, and that's OK, since you as a player has no obligation to know how a game is made. But here's the thing: It's not exact science once it gets out in the world. "Not pleasing everyone" is actually a nightmare devs have to deal with every single day and learn to accept, because it really is how it works. Someone will not like your game for one reason or another that can be objective or not, and they'll make it known to the world. As someone who does not understand how a game is made, you should listen to people that do telling you where you are wrong  and why your demand can't be met.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Zydalc on May 08, 2017, 05:10:12 PM
I didn't at all intend for my words to sound like you, your community or anyone else owed me something.

I know it's impossible to try and PLEASE everyone, because many people will pick out even the tiniest faults and then not play the game, I get that. at the end of the day, all I'm really saying is, like I said before, that cheat codes are a nice option to have, you don't need to use them to complete the game, but they're there if you want them, because having options is nice, even if you never use any of the extra stuff available to you, it's just nice to know. There are surely plenty of people who want or would like these options available to make the game a little easier, or just experience it with no pressure, or even decide if they want to keep the game and play through it at another time for real.

For the most part, I absolutely understand how game development works, and i know this stuff doesn't just magically crop up overnight, and it's all well and good that the developers have their intent and shape a game according to their vision, and you make some excellent points about how some people will be displeased for various reasons that may or may not be the developer's fault.

Now, having all that said, when all is said and done, and the developer has put in months, or even years on a project, unless some last minute bugs arise that need immediate fixing, it's not really in the developer's hands anymore, it's in the customers and/or other players, and how they play the game is their business, and they should feel free to play in any manner that they so desire once the game is in the hands of the players, what happens now is they offer critiques towards the developer (though this obviously isn't entirely possible with AAA games), and tell them what they can do to improve on their next project if there is one, and where they might want to go from there finally, maybe I'm wrong in feeling the way that I do, but this is just my two cents on the matter, do with it what you will
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on May 08, 2017, 05:34:10 PM
There was definitely some unneeded harshness in this thread.

I think I recall the old days, where a SNES game would have a magic 'cheat code' that would do stuff in-game upon pressing a magical button combination (The "Blood Mode" in Mortal Kombat II, the "Mirror Match Enable" code in the old Street Fighter II SNES games, the "Infinite Continues" code in Gradius III).

While these are nice to have, they're generally not necessary to have a good game.

I think the request is a little odd, but not a bad request... but I fear that having a "God Mode" code, would be pretty disrespectful to the people who worked really hard in this game to make sure that the game eased you into a good challenge and kept you going.

LC and LC2 definitely have that "Let me try juuust ONE more time!" kind of gameplay.  And this gameplay has been the root of the Castlevania series.
To break that with a cheat code would seem disrespectful, but not as disrepectful as games who have given you an "Easy Mode", only for you to reach the game only for the Ending Screen to laugh at you and make you challenge the tougher difficulty modes.

(Damn it, Serio, I will never be good at your game... :P )
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Dracula9 on May 09, 2017, 12:04:58 AM
I'd like to go on record and clarify that I was speaking entirely of save file editing, not necessarily ingame codes.

I have a problem with the former. I never said I didn't have plans for the latter.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 09, 2017, 05:12:45 AM
Holistically, on the back of what Jorge has said re: harshness, I believe this is indicative of how niche dedicated and hardcore Castlevania fans can be and how passionate these fans can be about the games they create as a kind of homage to what was once the "golden age" of gaming (in this case 2d castlevania) which debatably is not necessarily where our beloved industry is today.

[Side Note: I'm not sure how well OP knows other members of the CVD community, nor do I excuse arrogance, condescension, superiority or untoward behaviour, however, I will say that let alone to many people acknowledging posts or even comments from newcomers in the CVD (or any niche forums) I personally have experienced being ignored or having my ideas torn down when I believed it wasn't really merited. It's not the nicest of experiences which is why even if for example nobody supports OP's philosophy of gaming, we should at the very least hear people out and so forth.]

The way I see fan games and games in general mind you, are like works of art. Some explore certain facets and in others less of those facets are explored or included. By the same token that gamers face frustrations because they may not be able to pick up certain styles of games innately, there stands some poetic merit in creators wrapping up their game the way in which they see fit. As it is the creator who dictates difficulty, balance and risk/ reward factors being somewhat mindful of what constitutes a favourable design and suitable level(s) of challenge, I also do feel it's a gamers responsibility to invest as much or as little time as they believe beneficial into said games.

The issue I believe is that the creators made these fan games with a vision in mind. A creator's vision is not necessarily a player's vision. Generally things such as a learning curve, strategic design (platforms, enemy placement etc) and overall challenge settings are implemented to keep the player engaged and learning while they experience the game. Creators are human beings, not gods (though admittedly some are Kings and Queens among men/ women) they can't account for every member of their audience's particular requirements. Similarly to art, not all viewers/ players understand the intention behind any given piece of work.

There are also examples or games with cheat codes which don't guarantee making the journey a cakewalk. Older games started you later in the game (Kid Icarus or Metroid) but if you've never played or mastered the game, you'll have a hard time finishing them regardless as there were elements of trial and error involved, no matter how filled to the brim with resources an inexperienced player is. This level of assistance is not a "bad" request, but it's going to game genie levels of handicap which even in decades gone by are niche at best.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Wanhus on May 09, 2017, 06:26:30 AM
My game Simons Curse already has cheat codes that I'm using to test the game better.
But I think I'll comment them away so no one will ever get to them. =)

Don't mean anything bad to no one but i just don't like cheating =(
What comes to save file editing well I don't like that either but I'm not going to do extra work to prevent that. I'll max hide them and convert the file type but not encrypt.
I could add internal game code to compare save files if they have been modified, if so then corrupt them. But I would consider that to be mean.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: eryson on May 09, 2017, 09:23:46 AM
Maybe All this discussion could be solved with a

"Sorry, but this game was not designed to be played with cheats. We hopes that you can understand."

Zydalc, please understand. Mig and Belmontoya gave their best so the game could be good as it is today. and It surpassed probably almost everyone expectations) so, accept the thing as it is and stop with this discussion, unless you're intentionally prolonging it for fun.

(I hate lasagna, but I'll not blame the chef because it, jut find another place to eat  ;) )


Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Dracula9 on May 09, 2017, 12:41:17 PM
I hadn't seen this post prior to now:

Here's the problem, you seem to be insulted when cheats are used in your games, you can put them in but people don't have to use them which is exactly the point.

Besides why do you even care when someone else does something with your game?

I also find it interesting that you seem to think that I'm hurling insults at you but you fail to realize that you were the one that came swinging over my comments total gungho in the first place and I had to defend myself and call you out on your behavior which you somehow find that "insulting" to you which sounds like psychological projection here.

All I thought I was doing was asking if cheat codes WERE possible. I'm just saying that having options are nice, doesn't mean I'll ever need them, but it's just nice to know they're there if I want and/or need them. You can put in all sorts of options to make the game(s) easier for those of us with disabilities of any kind, or those of us who are having trouble, but guess what, it's just that, an option, nobody has to use them, but the people who do will surely appreciate it.

I came in swinging because the way you worded your original premise suggested that you wanted to sequence break to hell and back because you were too impatient to play a game quote-unquote "properly" (quotes because this term's meaning is subjective as hell and I'm only mentioning it for the larger point--debating what it actually means is another discussion for another time). It would appear that you're far more reasonable than that first impression might've suggested and that I swung too hard out of the gate. For that, I am sorry. I will make no denials of any hypocrisies, but I will instead try to phrase my perspective better than I have thus far in the hopes that a more common ground can be reached, or at the very least seen.

Arguing whilst angry is the same kind of problem as shopping while hungry, and I really don't like being angry or want to be so about this anymore.

I don't have a problem with codes--be they infinite health, get items, start later, play as secret character, max stats, whatever. Those are something that I would put in myself and would be at each player's discretion to use them or not.

But going in and editing a save file to get everything is another story entirely. That's not something I would plan for or put in myself, nor is it something which I as a developer can plan around like I can with codes. File editing is a very deliberate attempt at the ultimate extreme of sequence breaking, and it suggests the player doing it doesn't even care about what efforts I or the team went to to provide a balanced difficulty and acquisition curve. That's what I have a problem with and feel insulted by.

And it's like I said previously already: if a player's beaten the thing fully, I don't care what they do after that. Hack it, break it, go in and edit all the graphics to be Mr. Saturn in a funny hat, I don't give a shit. You've beaten it "properly" already, you've experienced all of what we set out for you to experience, so if you wanna have a bit of fun tearing it all apart after that, go for it. It's tearing it apart without being immersed in the full experience that bothers me.

To continue the chef-lasagna metaphor: it's like me wanting to be a chef for years, scrimping and saving and busting my ass to afford to go to cooking school and struggling through that to learn all the ropes and bells and whistles until finally settling down and making a success for myself at a nice restaurant. My specialty at said restaurant is a gourmet lasagna, one which calls for a meticulous and carefully-crafted recipe that I put my heart and soul into for the enjoyment of the diners. Now let's say a diner orders it, and when they realize it's going to take a little while for me to properly prepare it, they storm back into BOH and tell me to fuck off, they're just gonna go get a 3-minute microwave lasagna instead because they don't feel like waiting for me to cook theirs.

That would feel an insult to my pride as well as all the time and sweat and hard work I put forth in becoming that chef, right? Because someone would rather take the quick-and-easy route and blow off the hard work I would've gladly expended to give them an enjoyable meal?

That's more or less the reason I snapped at you so fiercely (which I will apologize for the delivery of--I can't say I'm sorry for feeling the way I do, so I won't bullshit you and say that I am, but I do feel sorry for how heavily I bit back, and I will not request its acceptance nor bear ill will should you choose to reject it).

I'm over here working my ass off to ensure an experience that is enjoyable and fair for as many people as I can humanly account for. I don't expect to please everyone, but I'll be damned if I don't try. So to be over here working really bloody hard to that end behind the curtain, and then get blown off and treated like I don't care, like I'm not accounting for player perspective, or that wanting players to experience all that our worn and tired hands have wrought with antihacking/antipiracy measures is somehow evil or selfish or sadistic or inconsiderate, is certainly more than a little hurtful.

I can't say being compared to abusers, rapists, and all sorts of other things over simply disagreeing with you and defending my opinions, work, and pride as a developer (albeit more vehemently than might've been necessary) has been particularly pleasant, either. So now you (hopefully) can see why that last lash was particularly fierce, and why I realized rather quickly that it was too far and altered it. I won't say I've been a saint here, but just as I've crossed a few lines with how hard I've been biting, so too is dropping very real and infinitely more serious and severe terms and insults like that over what really amounts to an Internet disagreement over game design. Things like swearing a lot in your general direction and being a sarcastic smartass in replying to you really aren't comparable to the kinds of problems you decided to bring into it. Rape and abuse and actual victim-blaming ruin lives. Internet forum arguments and suggesting someone just might not be very good at a video game, not so much.

To answer your question, I care what people do with my work because it's made for them. If I built a bicycle for my kid, I'd be concerned and invested in their not fiddling uncaringly with its mechanisms and risking injury or causing damage and ruining what would otherwise be a fun experience, no? It's kinda the same thing here. I care because I'm thinking of them all the time, we're having arguments and deliberations beyond count on how best to cater to them all the time, and it would be a huge shame and waste of effort for them to want to hack their way to victory instead of experience what we've worked so hard to craft for them.

I don't have delusions that I'll stop it entirely. Anyone who wants to break into the files badly enough will find a way to do so regardless of what security measures I install on them. But I value my work and the time put into it, and I wish to protect its integrity from people who don't want to experience all that we've carefully planned out for them (things like a badly balanced or broken game are another matter entirely and ones I care about resolving just as much--simply wanting to break everything out of impatience is what I have a problem with here). Is that a little selfish? Probably, but I don't think it's to an unreasonable degree, at least no more so than any artist or crafter wanting to protect that which they have created.

People care about what we put our time into, and don't want to see all our hard work crumble at our feet. Especially when we can plan contingencies around those things which would cause it to crumble.

I don't care about ingame codes. Not in the slightest. I have a whole list of ones I want to implement as it stands, from progress boosters to goofy shit like Goldeneye's DK mode. But deliberately breaking into data files to skip whole massive sections of gameplay is something I cannot condone or justify. Not when so much effort is being expended to give players as rich and enjoyable an experience as we can muster up. That kind of situation makes all our work having been in vain, and I'm not okay with that. It's really not unlike spending all day preparing an extravagant meal for your family, only for the kids to throw it away and complain that they want McDonald's instead and throw fits when you tell them no--it'd piss off and annoy any parent or whomever in that situation, so it's only natural that it does the same for me in this situation. The kids might genuinely not be intending to slight the parents who slaved away cooking, they might just have an honest preference for fast food, but that doesn't make the slight or the parents' reactions and the message the kids' actions sent to them any less real or valid.

I'm really very sorry if you can't or don't understand this mindset. I'm honestly running out of ways to explain it without repeating myself, because I do want you to understand. But I can't just up and make you understand--that ball's entirely in your court, and it's your prerogative to do with it what you wish.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on May 09, 2017, 05:16:58 PM
Honestly, though, Drac9, if you wouldn't come out swinging like that all the time, that would be greaaat.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 09, 2017, 06:34:26 PM
Honestly, though, Drac9, if you wouldn't come out swinging like that all the time, that would be greaaat.

Is that last part in a Bill Lumberg voice? ;p
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Dracula9 on May 10, 2017, 01:21:39 AM
Is that last part in a Bill Lumberg voice? ;p

Now that I think of it, I don't think I've seen my stapler for a while.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 10, 2017, 03:06:49 AM
Now that I think of it, I don't think I've seen my stapler for a while.

It got moved to utility basement B... Didn't you get that memo?
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Dracula9 on May 10, 2017, 03:19:41 AM
Welp.

Guess I'll just set the Dungeon on fire.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 10, 2017, 06:34:35 AM
Welp.

Guess I'll just set the Dungeon on fire.

Squirrely guy, mumbles a lot.. (sets things on fire)
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: X on May 10, 2017, 09:42:04 AM
Hee-hee, office space  ;D

Just nobody bring up the Federal @$$-pounding prison.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 10, 2017, 07:44:29 PM
Hee-hee, office space  ;D

Just nobody bring up the Federal @$$-pounding prison.

You either kick someone's ass on the first day, or become their bitch.. I never heard of these conjugal visits  :-X
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Corpsecrank on May 12, 2017, 07:23:20 AM
I don't really have a problem with it. I mean I get it so it doesn't bother me if that is what people want to do. It is also super hard to prevent someone from using cheat engine to cheat in a game. I can't think of a single pc game aside from an online game with a server that cheat engine isn't able to work on. Even some games with a server are able to be cheated with that if the server has weak protection against it. One of the biggest problems is learning how to use cheat engine that well. The amount of time spent and the effort it takes you might as well just play the game lol. But if you learn it then it will always work on everything from that point forward.

Frown on cheating all you want but judging how a person wants to play is a wasted effort. What you find fun others will not and what others find fun you will not. There is nothing unethical about cheating either not unless it is directly effecting another person in an online game or you are actually making money by cheating some how again through some online function where what you do amounts to real world money some how.

No one bitched and screamed about how wrong it was when people popped in a game genie back in the day or an action replay or game shark. This is literally no different.

So on topic yes you can cheat in a fan game or any other pc game if you know how.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Dracula9 on May 12, 2017, 09:00:40 AM
Frown on cheating all you want but judging how a person wants to play is a wasted effort. What you find fun others will not and what others find fun you will not. There is nothing unethical about cheating either not unless it is directly effecting another person in an online game or you are actually making money by cheating some how again through some online function where what you do amounts to real world money some how.

No one bitched and screamed about how wrong it was when people popped in a game genie back in the day or an action replay or game shark. This is literally no different.

It's just as much a wasted effort to try and make anyone feel guilty about having problems with it.

Rigging up your car to drive on its side at an angle unnatural to all known understandings of physics and three-dimensional space while shooting sixty-foot flames out the sides might be hella fun for some (I'd pay to see that, actually), but that doesn't make the original manufacturers "wrong" for issuing a statement of "okay look that might be hella fun but we didn't build the car for that."

And no, it's not "literally" the same.

Game Genie or Shark or any of the others have selective modification of existing values and variables and only occasionally had "one code does everything" options. You wanted everything, most times you had to go in and turn on every single one you wanted individually.

Save file editing, the only real thing I've spoken out against, isn't quite the same thing. Sure, both give you stuff earlier and sequence break progression, but Genie codes weren't as likely to actually break or softlock the game unless you were fucking around with them without knowing what the assembly values in the codes themselves meant.

You edit the wrong number or put a value in a place order it isn't meant to be in an .ini file, you can render the game unplayable. In Game Genie, you're more likely to just screw up one or two specific values that particular code applies to than you are to lock-crash the whole thing.

What happens when someone decides to change up the .ini save file to get max everything and they put, say, a special move value earlier/later in the load list than it's supposed to be, or change a value to something the engine and code isn't set to check for (e.g. trying to set item amounts to 999 when the item lists' array values are hardcoded not to exceed 9 or 99)? The game now has values it isn't structured to account for (since the game would never otherwise accrue those kinds of values outside of file editing), and will softlock itself trying to load foreign and nonexistent variables and values every step of the call scripts. Or it will read that you have that endgame ability at the beginning and let you use it, until you try to save and exit the first time and the game no longer has the "acquisition of the actual item that gives the ability triggers the permanent switching-on of that ability's variable for that save file" trigger to tell itself you have it, and the game crashes when you try to next load that edited save file.

There's way more to the matter than simply "cheets coods r bad." And it isn't as if it's even remotely possible to write in code to account for any and all possible cheats and edits and hackings so that above lock-crashes are planned around.

No, I'm not a fan of file editing (outside of the aforementioned "you beat it proper the way it was intended, I don't care what you do from here" stipulation). Obviously, if this thread has made anything clear. But there's a whole slew of reasons aside from that I dislike it--most of which center around "oh look they went and rendered the game unplayable by fucking with the files" and the potential for a player to break everything and thus not be able to experience the game without having to reinstall/redownload. It'd be a different matter if every single potential player knew my exact coding style and variable/array/data structures and could edit everything without having to worry about breaking the structures' order...but that's never going to happen, for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Corpsecrank on May 12, 2017, 01:35:04 PM
Who cares if they cause themselves to have to reinstall the game? You shouldn't it isn't your time. Not only that who alters files without making a copy of them first for those exact reasons? I just don't see the point of all that added stuff you are talking about beyond the fact they are cheating.

What I said is exactly the same as a game genie or game shark etc. You are altering values in memory with cheat engine while the game is running. With a game genie the code you could alter was different and there were also other limitations because this was a cartridge on a console not code being executed on a pc where the memory can be scanned and changed on the fly. I was talking mainly about using cheat engine not about altering save files or other files. Altering a file is just one more way to change a game but that method isn't always available where cheat engine is pretty much always going to work if you know how to use it. Hell I wouldn't even waste my time altering files any more simply because cheat engine is the easiest way for me to do what I want.

About cheating being wrong? I'm not trying to change any minds about it. I am just saying don't bother bringing it into this for that exact reason. People who cheat will cheat and people who want to play clean will do just that. But every time you mention cheats there seems to be this whole cheating is wrong argument.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Dracula9 on May 13, 2017, 01:40:55 AM
I'll thank you not to tell me what I should and shouldn't prioritize or care about.

And I'm sorry, but it's still not the same. You can make all the arguments for it you want. Genie edits in realtime, file editing does not. Genie can be toggled instantly or if something breaks, file editing cannot.

I appreciate that you're not trying to actively change minds on the moral quandry, but I'm not doing so either.

But there are more reasons it can be problematic, and 90% of the time nobody's gonna even think of those reasons unless they are, have been, or will be a developer. The mindset of development accounts for things users wouldn't even think about. It's not as black-and-white a matter as "it's a thing and it's morally subjective so just don't talk about it because that's all there is to it," and it never will be.

I feel a bit like Mance while Jon tries to convince him to kneel to Stannis here--"...but if you can’t understand why I won’t enlist my people in a foreigner’s war, there’s no point explaining." Just replace the "I don't want my people dying in someone else's war" concept with "I don't want my work to become unplayable because of someone else's impatience if I can protect it from that level of breakage."
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Corpsecrank on May 13, 2017, 12:52:14 PM
I wasn't telling you what you should prioritize or whatever. But if that means anything to you then consider that you are also attempting to control others by limiting what they can and can't do once they install the game. Much like you don't like being told something other do not like to be told they cannot edit a file they now own. That logic of I don't want this to break because a user wants to experiment with it is exactly what apple has always done and you can find plenty of complaints about that. I never hear anyone complain because a platform is left open though.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Belmontoya on May 13, 2017, 01:01:24 PM
I wasn't telling you what you should prioritize or whatever. But if that means anything to you then consider that you are also attempting to control others by limiting what they can and can't do once they install the game. Much like you don't like being told something other do not like to be told they cannot edit a file they now own. That logic of I don't want this to break because a user wants to experiment with it is exactly what apple has always done and you can find plenty of complaints about that. I never hear anyone complain because a platform is left open though.

Rules are what makes a game. Someone who goes to the trouble of making a game tends to want the player to experience it the way they intended.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 13, 2017, 04:43:48 PM
I wasn't telling you what you should prioritize or whatever. But if that means anything to you then consider that you are also attempting to control others by limiting what they can and can't do once they install the game. Much like you don't like being told something other do not like to be told they cannot edit a file they now own. That logic of I don't want this to break because a user wants to experiment with it is exactly what apple has always done and you can find plenty of complaints about that. I never hear anyone complain because a platform is left open though.

There's a difference between apple and Dracula9. First off, it goes without saying that nobody can enforce opinions on others, it takes two parties (or more) to come to a consensus, which if can't be reached then nothing will change.

Secondly the apple argument is null and void (and don't give us the whole "it's the principle" spiel). Apple is a business, one of the world's most famous and lucrative technological companies. People such as D9 are making fan games which are keeping some of the hardcore castlevania fans alive in an era where konami is completely ignoring and disrespecting their own franchise. These individuals are putting hundreds and thousands of hours into developing games which look as if they could've been professionally made and sold the way konami used to make and sell castlevania. But they're not, they're allowing people to experience them for free. These people do not owe the general public anything, they have given their time and skill set to the general public.     

There is no moral high ground for the gamer here. There is no personal gain for these developers other than to see a final product and allow games to be experienced by fans of the series.

On a personal note, one of the things I can't stand is people placing their expectations on another individual and saying "Sort it out!". No, if you placed the expectation their in the first place, then you sort it out by adjusting down your expectation-dial by a few notches. It's not someone else's problem.
Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Dracula9 on May 13, 2017, 08:28:43 PM
I wasn't telling you what you should prioritize or whatever. But if that means anything to you then consider that you are also attempting to control others by limiting what they can and can't do once they install the game. Much like you don't like being told something other do not like to be told they cannot edit a file they now own. That logic of I don't want this to break because a user wants to experiment with it is exactly what apple has always done and you can find plenty of complaints about that. I never hear anyone complain because a platform is left open though.

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Title: Re: This may sound like a odd request but...
Post by: Inccubus on May 14, 2017, 07:18:58 PM
OK. I did a little teal deer on this, cause y'all talk too much. :P

That being said, my perspective specifically on the issue of save editing is thus...
As a game developer, especially a solo indie game developer, I don't feel the need to go through the effort of encrypting my save data.
If a player has enough ingenuity to even think of editing the save files, then more power to them.
If they haven't legit played through the game? Couldn't care less.
It's their prerogative to enjoy the game however they see fit as far as I'm concerned.
If they corrupt their data and their game gets borked? Couldn't care less.
It's my prerogative to ignore them if they complain about their own choices and actions.

I haven't the time nor the desire to spend any mental energy on this sort of thing.
I have fun making games.
When I release something into the wild, I hope my users have fun with my creations.
The only things I owe them is a reasonably bug-free game they can play from beginning to end and patches to fix issues I didn't catch prior to release.