Topic: Them girly creatures

[Abnormal Freak]

Friends, seeing as how I'm all befuddled, I figured I'd ask y'all some stuff, take my chances and see if I get some good answers, that sort of thing.

I've been interested in this girl for a few years. She knows it, we're good friends, she likes me too, but we're both very cautious; we don't want to date currently because we'd rather not deal with a messy breakup should that happen.

In other words, we're unsure.

And I'm getting more unsure by the day. We're both Bible-believing Christians, she's a funny gal and level-headed, and despite the heated arguments we get into where you'd swear we HATE each other (from time to time over the years I've even thought to myself, "I'm never talking to her again"), we seem to make up pretty well. But trouble pops up in our differences. In some ways they can be good, in terms of our strengths and weaknesses; she has a lot of qualities I lack and vice versa, so it's encouraging to have someone to support and who will support you. But our differences are also a problem: she's much more conservative than I am, particularly in the fields of humor and entertainment. My likes are often more on the "liberal" side because I realize my interests don't make me who I am, while she's more the churchie type. This honestly wouldn't bother me much if it weren't for the fact she's ALWAYS in my hair about what I like or think. "You shouldn't do this"; "If we were married, I couldn't allow this," etc. We're very at odds in this sense and I wonder if it would hamper our happiness and the way we raise kids.

Her biggest problem is just "objectionable" content in movies and the like. I'm a horror/exploitation/B-movie junkie and there's often a lot of female nudity in them. She brought up a good point that a woman isn't going to be pleased with her husband seeing breasts in a movie, even if he's not lusting for her or comparing; in her mind it doesn't matter how loyal a man's thoughts or actions are, according to her "the girl will always feel abated." Part of me sees this point full well, but another can't help but feel that it's unwarranted jealousy. If a man's married to a woman, I feel that she shouldn't worry about his devotion; she's already his, they're locked in. Marriage isn't a commitment I take lightly, and breasts in a movie aren't going to distract from my love for my wife. If I were watching PORNO, that's a problem, but I'm not watching the movies I like FOR the boobs. It would be wonderful if a girl I marry would allow me to enjoy the things I like and not give me grief or feel downcast over my tastes; but I realize a couple makes compromises in a marriage.

Though a part of me can't help but wonder if this'll be a problem all my life. It's not just that she's against some content; it's that our senses of humor and our interests aren't always mutual, and more often than not are separate. She gets upset easily and can't handle very well dark content or serious tales; she's very much into lighthearted fare. If I can't often enjoy with her a good, engaging, dramatic movie because it's too dark for her, I feel that's a problem. She's also into totally cheeseball humor, the stuff I typically can't stand, whereas I'm more into absurdist stuff and raunch. What I find funny isn't exactly something I can change, and it wouldn't be fair to either of us to have me suppress my personality if she can't cope with the things I like or find comical. She's already given me the waving finger (figuratively) a couple times in this regard.

So I dunno. On the one hand, she's a great gal, super pretty, we get along well, our beliefs are in many ways very similar, and we laugh a lot when with each other (we do have some common humor ground); but on the other, we're VERY different when it comes to our interests, I feel like she nags me (and she's not even my girlfriend for crying out loud), she often makes me either depressed or really irritated, and despite our general and sometimes specific mutual beliefs, we have what I consider to be minor differences that are actually HUGE FREAKING DIFFERENCES because she grew up in a really strict home and her parents have a great deal of influence on her. (Now's a good time to mention she once got on my case for being really annoyed [not at her] and using the word "friggin'.")

And that's another thing: she suffered a traumatic brain injury when she was a kid and has a bit of problem adjusting to new ideas, ways of life, etc. so she clings to her parents' guidance. Nothing wrong with obeying your parents and heeding their advice, that's biblical after all, but I often feel like she doesn't have a whole lot of independent voice, which she agrees. Her parents are all well and fine and they really stepped up to the challenge and raised a fantastic, smart daughter (she graduated from college recently with good grades) whom teachers and doctors were saying would be so incapacitated that she'd spend her life mopping floors at McDonald's (you can't even tell she's handicapped; it's only when she faces conflict that she kinda locks up and has trouble behaving "normally," even though she is more rational than a lot of people who have no excuse). I'm not trying to say anything bad about them, I just think they're too strict in ways and I'd be interested to see how my friend deals with things if she were to move out and be on her own for a while. Maybe the areas where she harps on me would not be such a problem anymore and she'd loosen up a bit. She's already shown some of this loosening since we've become better friends, which by the way she always asks herself, "Am I just lightening up or am I losing sight of my convictions?" So who knows? Maybe in another few years she won't be a total momma's girl and won't have so much beef with me and what I like to do. Then again, she could be this way all her life. Either way, I think it's best to continue to play it safe from a distance and not rush headlong into a relationship and instead allow myself to cool down (i.e. tell my hormones to settle down). But part of me's worried another guy will come along and snatch her away during this time of indecision, leaving me miserable because I have this irrational feeling that I'll find no one better. But isn't that mentality more like "settling for what's best"? That certainly feels wrong and unfair to her; it would make sense to never marry than to go for a girl simply because she's the best available therefore "I might as well."

Anyway, yeah. Just wondering folks' thoughts on all this crap. I've talked to my family, I've talked to friends...now I'm interested in talking to youse guys.

[Successor The Cruel]

If it were me, I would give a relationship a chance if I really liked the girl, and it sounds like you do. You may learn to grow into your differences, so to speak. I would think that if a breakup was caused due to choices of entertainment, both of you could be mature about it and still be friends.

Oh yeah. And if you really like the girl, there is a chance someone else might have some interest in her or will in the future... possibly the very near future. It's something to keep in mind.

[Ratty]

A strong relationship is built on two things. The most well known is trust, the unfortunately more often forgotten one is mutual respect. You have to be equal partners or it won't work. You won't always share the same interests and that's ok. But it's not a matter of "letting" one or the other enjoy something they like. She needs to respect your hobbies the same way you need to respect whatever hers are that she enjoys and you don't. Doesn't mean you have to like them yourself but you should just be happy that there is something that brings the person you love joy. If you can't work out something so relatively trivial in your life together, how would you ever hope to tackle the big challenges? Ultimately this, along with the nature of your feelings for each other in general, is something that you and she need to sit down and talk about together.

(A bi man giving relationship advice to Christians, who'da thunk it?    lol)

PS-

But part of me's worried another guy will come along and snatch her away during this time of indecision, leaving me miserable because I have this irrational feeling that I'll find no one better. But isn't that mentality more like "settling for what's best"? That certainly feels wrong and unfair to her; it would make sense to never marry than to go for a girl simply because she's the best available therefore "I might as well."

Yes, this is bad. Do you want "the best girl I can get", however you judge that, or do you want her. You have to love the person, flaws and all, if you want a serious relationship. Here's a good test of your emotions- if, hypothetically, there was another guy you were competing with for her affections and you somehow knew she would be happier with this other person (not wealthier etc. but actually happier) would you want her to be with him so she would be the happiest she could, or would you want her to be with you? Needless to say the latter choice would show that your feelings in regard to her are more self-serving than truly affectionate or loving.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

She needs to respect your hobbies.  She doesn't have to like them, but she has to respect them, just as you should respect hers.

I am seeing nothing but red flags on the things you're describing about her, the one that resonates more is "If we were married, I couldn't allow this".  I suppose there is something to be said about compromise, but I do not know the details enough to talk about that all that much.

She brought up a good point that a woman isn't going to be pleased with her husband seeing breasts in a movie, even if he's not lusting for her or comparing

Who told you that this is a good point?  This sounds like an insecure woman talking.  Many women don't really care if you casually end up seeing breasts in films.  They're not watching your expression like a hawk seeing if you're getting your rocks off watching 'em. 

Sorry, Freak... but this girl sounds too conservative for me.  Perhaps you would be able to deal with those issues, but I sure as hell wouldn't.  Then again, I like Liberal girls and stay THE FUCK AWAY from Conservatives, and the Religious, and ESPECIALLY the Religious Conservative women.

“Men marry women with the hope they will never change. Women marry men with the hope they will change. Invariably they are both disappointed.”  -Albert Einstein

She's already drawing her line in the sand.  I wouldn't date her... but then again I'm not you.

You want a nice liberal girl, who will watch the movies with you, enjoy them and tell you "That girl's got some nice knockers.  After this is over you wanna get weird with me?".

[Mooning Freddy]

There is no good relationship without mutual interest. If your interests are so far apart, and you don't think she'll learn to respect your interests, forget it. You can be great friends, but a relationship would be filled with argument and taking it further into marriage would cause a painful divorce, since unless you don't  to live together you'll suffer.

For me, I know that a religious woman is a no-zone. Even if I really like one and she likes me, it won't work. The result would be often her family viewing you in a bad light since you're "not like them", the girl always being mad with you for not going to church / synagogue, stuff like that. The funny thing is that it works the other way around- secular girls in my country are far more willing to sacrifice their secular lifestyle and accept religious obligations for a man they like. 
In Christianity it's not as difficult because there are far less restrictions than Judaism or Islam, and religious people are mostly less conservative. Yet I believe a mixed-marriage is still difficult.

[Aridale]

I agree with Jorge 100%. Red flags abound! The "if we were married" part did it for me no way Id date that chic I dont care how hot she is. You are right tho about her maybe or never changin. Its a huge gamble.

My best friend married a girl that was kinda like this girl your talkin about. She was a really strictly church girl raised by strict church goin parents, still lived with em at 22, worked at a church radio station only job she ever had, etc. She didnt cuss she didnt drink she was a serious bible thumper and when they first met I couldnt stand her. After they were married a while and of course moved in together she loosened up and relaxed. Shes still religious and they goto church all the time but shes way easier to be around now. Shes almost the kinda religious person totally non-religious ppl like me like to be around. Almost... not quite shes still high horsey sometimes but shes totally different now (after 6? years) than she was.

Your girl could be the same way... or she could always live with/under her parents. Like I said its a big gamble. All I know is that right now as you described her, shes a no fly zone probably even as more than a casual friend

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Yeah I stay away from all heaviliy-religious women, but especially Protestants, Jewish, and Muslim women, and I don't even address Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, or Scientolgists.  I'm open to Budhist, Hindi, Catholic, but I work best with Agnostic and Atheist women.  Modern Catholics (which I used to be, long ago) are awesome 'cuz it's one of the least devout of the religions.  "You're not going to Church this Sunday?  Good, me neither!"

If a woman is going to nag me to go to church or is going to put my kids in a religious regime as soon as they're born, we're just not gonna get along.

So like I said: pick a nice secular, liberal, girl.  Maybe even have a three-way with her and her cute friend.  Nice and blasphemous.    In fact, the more diabolic debauchery the better.  Bwaahahahaha.

[Mooning Freddy]

"You're not going to Church this Sunday?  Good, me neither!"

Sounds to me like the "passive-aggressive Polish moms" stereotype.

Oh, you don't want to go to Church today? That's okay, don't worry. I'm perfectly fine with you disregarding the family tradition. Don't feel like washing the dishes right now? Fine. I'll wash the dishes. And mop the floor. And prepare dinner. Go on, read your paper now. 

Also, weren't Catholics supposed to be more conservative than Protestants? Is it the other way around now?

[uzo]

Freak, this is a problem I too share in that we as Christians who have a more open minded and relaxed view on things often find ourselves stuck in a very difficult position. I'll be making a few presumptions here so feel free to correct me on anything if I am wrong.

Preface: the terms of liberal and conservative for this post are used under the lifestyle and moral attitude definitions, not the political ones.



The biggest issue for people like us is our middle road status. The average Christians tend to think of us as too liberal, wrong, or undevoted, and likewise the real liberal crowd will scoff that we are too conservative, wrong, and stupid or ignorant. Afterall, you can't be intelligent and religious at the same time, right? Such is the open minded believer's plight.

The problem here is, she is on the traditional Christian road which causes her to be somewhat short sighted on some issues. We both know that the objective of a moral ideal, is not always the same as the traditional route to get there. As a simple rule to follow, no nudity what so ever is the road to keeping lust away from a couple. That said, you can however arrive to that same goal through sheer will, and gain the same result, without the traditional method of doing so. There is nothing wrong with this, however, you will of course be panned for it by the typical Christans. Likewise you can't turn to any liberal friends either, because they will tell you you shouldn't hold on to a religious related goal at all. Again, stuck between the crowds.

The truth of the matter is, you will not find many people of your type. It is a lonely road to embrace the goals of religion, without following it step by step as it was 2000 years ago. That is, at least in my experience.

[Inccubus]

There is no good relationship without mutual interest. If your interests are so far apart, and you don't think she'll learn to respect your interests, forget it. You can be great friends, but a relationship would be filled with argument and taking it further into marriage would cause a painful divorce, since unless you don't  to live together you'll suffer.

This is 100% true and I know it from heart-crushing experience. The ex wasn't honest with me about how she felt about my one major interest and this lead to all kinds of problems and eventually resentment. And to compound things further she wasn't honest about her reasons for getting married. She did it because of a misguided idea that it would make things better. She was dead wrong. Don't get me wrong I love her still, and I probably always will, but if I knew then what I know now, I never would have let things go as far as they did.

She needs to respect your hobbies.  She doesn't have to like them, but she has to respect them, just as you should respect hers.

Even if you only share a few common interests that should be good enough if you both maintain mutual respect those interests you don't share. You both have to be mature enough to be ok with the things you don't share in common. And it doesn't matter what it is you're in to. Porn, D&D, drag racing, doesn't matter. If she can't respect the things you like, then she isn't ready for a serious relationship.


If you do end up pursuing a relationship with her and you find she does mellow out and you start thinking of getting hitched I urge you to not do it until you've lived together first. There is a very big difference between dating someone & living with them. The first month you live with someone you'll get on each others nerves to no end and every single little pet peeve you have will come out in glaring brilliance.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Oh, you don't want to go to Church today? That's okay, don't worry. I'm perfectly fine with you disregarding the family tradition. Don't feel like washing the dishes right now? Fine. I'll wash the dishes.

Sounds more like Jewish Mom Guilt.

[Abnormal Freak]

Even if you only share a few common interests that should be good enough if you both maintain mutual respect those interests you don't share. You both have to be mature enough to be ok with the things you don't share in common. And it doesn't matter what it is you're in to. Porn, D&D, drag racing, doesn't matter. If she can't respect the things you like, then she isn't ready for a serious relationship.

I think porn (actual porn, not some dumb exploitation movie with lots of nudity) is going too far for most women and reasonably so. 'Cos face it, you're watching that stuff to get your rocks off and you're seeing women (or men, or goats, or...) getting plowed and creamed all over. It's pretty rotten business for a man claiming devotion to his woman to be into. No woman should have to put up with or respect her man's interest in porn, IMO. I see it as very unloving, even if you're not a religious couple. Unless of course you're with one of those rare girls who are pornomaniacs. I still think porn amidst the relationship will cause problems, but hey...maybe some can make it work.

But on the other areas I agree. Something that bugs me about the girl I'm really into is I'll sometimes bring up that it bugs me the way she gets after me about what I like, and she'll say, "But you don't like what I like!" to which I point out to her that I don't try to take that away from her; she's free to enjoy what she does, I realize it brings her great joy and it makes me smile because of it. I sometimes jokingly call her a cheeseball and say, "Figures you'd laugh at that," but I'm just joking around with her and I think she realizes that. (She can be very hard to read in that she sometimes laughs or smiles even if she doesn't fully mean it; something could have ignited or be brewing inside where she changes her feelings on something later.)

And I do agree that she must be pretty insecure if she's whipping up such a fury about boobs in movies. I've told her, "If I date a woman, it will be no small decision, and if her and I get married, I will be with her the rest of my life making it work out in any way I can and my love, devotion, and sexual attention will be HERS. No exceptions. And something I see in a movie isn't going to make me think, 'Gee, I wish my wife had knockers like those!' If a husband sees some outrageously pretty woman walking down the street and turns his head to notice, his wife shouldn't have fear because she ought to be comfortable in the fact that out of ALL the women in the world, he chose HER to be with." To which she replies, "I know the guy probably won't be that way, but to the girl it will ALWAYS be that way, always on her mind. She'll be comparing herself to these other women and being upset at even the THOUGHT that her husband could be doing the same." Which definitely sounds more like insecurity than something religious; I've thought about asking other Christian women I know (those my age, I mean) about this and find out what they have to say, but part of me's kinda timid about it, thinking that might be a little inappropriate. (And yeah, before anyone thinks it's all too weird we're discussing marriage both in a general sense and pondering about it when it comes to the two of us together, we're both of the mindset that we don't want to date anyone unless marriage is a good possibility, marriage being "the ultimate goal." So it'd be a little more like courting in that sense, though not strictly so.)

And she sees these as moral issues; my interest in exploitative entertainment has to do with spiritual immaturity, she claims, thinking God doesn't want that for my life. The odd thing is, over all the years I've given it extensive thought, I've never once felt God ring alarm bells like He has other areas of my life that I see now needed change, rather I'm always feeling guilted by other believers who have more a traditional way of thinking. I've told her this and said that even if I were to get rid of "objectionable" entertainment, it won't necessarily change me or kill my desire to enjoy those things, because I'd be doing it for her and not for God, and can she live with that? to which I haven't yet gotten an answer.

The truth of the matter is, you will not find many people of your type. It is a lonely road to embrace the goals of religion, without following it step by step as it was 2000 years ago. That is, at least in my experience.

It's a lonely road indeed. The gals into the kindsa thing I like (gruesome horror movies, industrial music, etc.) are almost always of the liberal atheist variety, whereas the Christian gals tend to come in two packages: the ones who are open to the stuff I show them and don't give me beef usually end up compromising in areas where I think it's definitely wrong for a Christian to compromise and their devotion to their faith wanes; but the more common ones I come across who are strong and faithful tend to be way too morally conservative to the point of ridiculous excess that it almost no longer seems like genuine Christian faith but more like Quakerism or somesuch.

One thing I absolutely know for sure is that no matter how well I get along with a girl, if she doesn't hold on to my moral, religious, and even political beliefs (in the general sense and on the biggest issues; I know two people can never be alike), I don't want to be with her, because I know it will bring me great sadness to be with a woman who doesn't hold on to these convictions and have God as her focus in life, because that's of utmost importance to me. But it just seems so hopeless sometimes because it feels like the only way I can experience someone in this way, in being a Christian married couple hopefully raising kids, I'll have to make a lot of changes to myself. Change and compromise are inevitable when you're bringing two people together, but for me this issue is less about "boobs and 'adult content' in movies" and more about overall morality and strictness and what's considered right and wrong. I don't want to be nagged at all my life because I told my son an innocent joke that's deemed by the wife to be inappropriate and sinful. I never want to be tied down to someone who's going to make me miserable in that way and who won't allow me to be myself.

And again, she's loosened up a lot in the nearly four years I've known her. When we first met, she thought I was the weirdest damn thing on the planet (well, still thinks that, but more used to it) and she used to get REALLY surprised at and worried about me because "YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING THAT!!!" To which I've always asked, "Why?" and she goes, "I...I.......I don't know!" I've explained to her my views on things, a lot of which she's thought deeply about and said, "That makes sense. I've never heard somebody put it that way." Which again she has to ask herself, "Does this make sense or am I compromising on my faith?" With her brain injury, I hate to say it but she doesn't always come to her own conclusions. That is, it's not exactly natural to her. I know she has a spark of her own identity because she tells me how her mom and her get into arguments over how to handle things, so I know she wants to do many things differently than what her mother's taught her to do. I just wonder how different she'll be regarding faith issues if she's out of the house and a bit detached from her overly-strict parents. I had strict parents too, but they allowed me to play video games and make certain jokes, and even the things they didn't care for they generally still allowed me to do. And I guess that's the difference: I honor my father and mother without thinking I have to obey every last word or inclination that they have. I listen to advice from them, but if I think about it and choose to go a different way, no harm. That's not dishonoring them. My relationship with God is between myself and Him; my parents should not be mediators, and I feel that in my friend's life, her parents are. I think they're overly protective of her not just because she's their daughter but also because of her brain injury. And it's a legitimate concern, there just comes a point where they need to let go; they've done an amazing job raising her, and she's almost 27 now, so perhaps she needs to start seeing the world through her own eyes and making her own decisions.

Also, weren't Catholics supposed to be more conservative than Protestants? Is it the other way around now?

From my own experience, Catholics tend to be much more liberal, both morally and politically. A lot of Catholic teens and young adults think they can get around the "no fornication" rule by having anal sex, because it's not actual intercourse if a vagina's not involved, amirite? A lot of Protestants—especially teens—are stupid in that way too, don't get me wrong, but a conservative Protestant is more likely (at least here in Minnesota) than a conservative Catholic.

[Ratty]

Well that's the thing though isn't it? Christianity does include thoughtcrimes, notably when it comes to men looking at women.*

27: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29: And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30: And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. - Jesus, Matthew 5

So from a Christian point of view her urging you to give up violent and sexually exploitative movies makes perfect sense. Lead yourself not unto possible temptation. If your movie watching habits possibly lead to a lustful gaze, pluck them out. (The movies etc. that is, easier to pluck than your eye.)
The most common criticism of this Christ-given decree I have heard is that if no man ever looked at a woman he wasn't married to lustfully, there probably wouldn't be any children born outside of arranged marriages, but hey I'm just reporting what Jesus says in the Bible.

*Women looking at men is not addressed so I guess it was assumed they wouldn't.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Ha ha!
Most of my ex's have been so cool that they've gone and asked me "So what kind of porn are you into"?

You need a girl like that.  Nice and naughty.
The cool catholic girls will say "I'm going to church.  I'll be back in hour.  Bye, love you!"

C'mon Freak, you're not living up to your namesake! 

[Abnormal Freak]

Well that's the thing though isn't it? Christianity does include thoughtcrimes, notably when it comes to men looking at women.*

27: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29: And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30: And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. - Jesus, Matthew 5

So from a Christian point of view her urging you to give up violent and sexually exploitative movies makes perfect sense. Lead yourself not unto possible temptation. If your movie watching habits possibly lead to a lustful gaze, pluck them out. (The movies etc. that is, easier to pluck than your eye.)
The most common criticism of this Christ-given decree I have heard is that if no man ever looked at a woman he wasn't married to lustfully, there probably wouldn't be any children born outside of arranged marriages, but hey I'm just reporting what Jesus says in the Bible.

*Women looking at men is not addressed so I guess it was assumed they wouldn't.

The interesting thing about "lust" is that in English there's such a sinful connotation with it, but it ignores other areas of the Bible where such a word or one like it could be used. There's definitely such a thing as "good, healthy lust" that God would not condemn; it's what draws us to our spouse, what attracts a man to a woman, and I believe Jesus Himself even spoke about this kind of lust or attraction. (Can't think of the specific passage but my brother who is practically a genius and an astute Bible scholar was telling me about it some years ago.) The more negative form of lust is traveling one's mind down warned-against territory, having sexual fantasies about her. I think much of the problem with modern American Christianity is just how assumed so many things are based on the English translations and nothing more; no historical or lexicological context, just how we perceive it at face value and in our culture.

I wouldn't like a girl who's into porn. :p I despise pornography, as sex is something meant for two people in privacy. That said, I wouldn't mind being with a girl who admires the beauty of the female form and wouldn't freak out when some bouncin' jubblehz are on the screen. :o

And that handle's old as dirt. :p I'm not even sure what I meant by "Abnormal Freak" anyway; think it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.