Topic: Superman vs Goku is old hat. Here's the REAL question.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Allowing him anywhere from a week to three months to prepare for the final takedown...

How would Batman take down Goku?

Furthermore, does he succeed? Could he succeed?

Let the flames of debate rage once again! Please note that while I am firmly #TeamBatman, I am too lazy to actually postulate a theory right now so I'll be entering the fray later.

[theplottwist]

Batman with preparation time = Nearly invincible.

Everyone has a weakness, and Batman builds entire databases for those. Goku's are his ego and illiteracy, above all others. Batman has a loooooong experience dealing wih enemies WAY stronger and smarter than Goku by preying on their egos and actually defeating them through it (Darkseid comes to mind). If Batman lost even after preparing himself, it was because the enemy had also a cunning mind (once again, Darkseid).

Goku is strong, fast, a brilliant martial artist. But the truth of the matter is that he's dumb. Fighting is out of the question, of course, but Batman excels in pretty much anything else where Goku fails miserably -- specially smarts. He may not resist a punch from Goku, but he also excels at fighting (and has mastered more styles than Goku).

'Nuff said. With preparation, Batman would best Goku, and give him a lifetime of nightmares in the process.

[JR]

Best thing I could think of would be if Batman could somehow nullify Goku's speed and power, like giving him a doctored senzu bean that would knock Goku out...maybe saying something like, "I want to fight you at 100%," or something like that. Being far too trusting, Goku would eat it without a second thought. But then, how would Batman actually harm Goku? Eh, I don't know...I've never been very good at rationalizing who would win in a fight between different characters and stuff...

...so who would win in a fight between Dr. Doom and Dr. Phil? 

[zangetsu468]

Seriously is this even a question, Batman excels at fighting?

On what fucking planet can Batman fight as well as Goku?
Goku is powerful enough to break the planet several times over.
Dumb is not the correct adjective, Goku is not unintelligent he's simply incredibly naive.
Too often he allows his opponents to power up or walk away or as he did in FnF/ Frieza's Resurrection (which is no longer canon with DBS) he let's his guard down.

Batman could mortally wound Goku if
- He destroys the planet with Goku on it
- He does what Sorbet did to Goku in FnF (google is your friend)
- He infects Goku with some kind of virus that renders him a dead, a vegetable or immobile (like the heart virus in dbz)

I don't say this because I dislike Batman - in fact I hope he beats Kal-El (No Spoilers please)  but here's the thing, the Tsufuru-Jin had advanced technology, far beyond Earth's and they couldn't deal with low level Saiyans who were becoming Oozaru's/ Great Apes. The Oozaru's power levels back then wouldn't have barely cracked 10-20,000 and that's being generous.

Batman has technology beyond military level but even if it were superior to the entire rave of the Tsufuru-Jin he couldn't deal with the gap in power and fighting ability. Nuclear or biological warfare would have to be used imo.

[theplottwist]

Seriously is this even a question, Batman excels at fighting?

On what fucking planet can Batman fight as well as Goku?
Goku is powerful enough to break the planet several times over.

Being strong =\= Being skilled

Batman has mastered 127 martial arts, and has trained numerous JL members. Goku has mastered four, five tops. "Excelling at fighting" and "not being able to take on Goku because ONE light punch from Goku will take his head off" are two very different things.

You can be powerful -- if you obey a fighting style, you can be predicted. Though I'll grant Goku knows some made-up martial arts such as "Kaioken," Akira Toriyama has stated to have been influenced by Jackie Chan, so we can see that there are influences from real-world styles.

And I'm being HELLA generous and mentioning an underskilled Batman with an unsourced claim from DC wikia, even. Two official sources not listed there claim he has perfected ALL martial arts. Were Goku a human, he'd be ROYALLY screwed with his amazing "five-martial-art mastery."

So, again: Batman obviously can't stand a blow from Goku, as I pointed on my post. Armor could probably protect him for a little while, but I'd wager Batman has 0 chances to resist Goku on a body-to-body. Yet he's still more skilled than Goku.

Bruce Lee says: "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." The issue here is that while Goku is the latter, having practiced one kick 10,000 times, Batman has practiced EVERY kick 10,000 times.

The point here is less about "Batman knows more, thus he wins" and more about "Batman learns much faster than Goku, and couid probably learn (and master) what Goku knows by watching him in his prep time."

Dumb is not the correct adjective, Goku is not unintelligent he's simply incredibly naive.

While I could argue the "dumb" and "naive" things, I feel it's unecessary given Batman has genius-level intellect and is pretty freaking cunning. We're all dumb next to him.

Goku is a genius at fighting, but sucks outside of it, which is exactly where Batman would try to defeat him, since he can't stand a punch from the monkey boy.

[zangetsu468]

There's also the case of speed. Goku can move at God like speeds and inflict blows with God ki.

It's also noted in dbz BOG that regular ki doesn't work on gods, so given Goku would not drop the barrier of ki from around his body batman would have a slim chance of inflicting damage through his mastery of all martial arts. Even if he had something akin to the suit Lex Luthor uses to fight superman, good luck injuring a god.

I'm not sure where you're sourcing the "5 martial arts tops" from, but in terms of Goku's fighting ability he is a master of directing ki. It took Master Roshi (one of the most skilled humans at martial arts in db's universe) 50 years to learn the kamehameha wave, Goku learned that 50 years worth of training as a child. He even told Frieza who was a fighting prodigy and had never trained a day in his life that his martial arts were sloppy. That same prodigy training for 4 months and reached god ki could simply close not the gap in power to defeat Goku (or Vegeta for that matter).

The other issue for batman, Goku is not vulnerable the way superman is to kryptonite. A vulnerability would be batman's best chance.

[KaZudra]

Goku has a strong tendency of fighting on-level with his opponent for the sake of a good fight, which makes fighting DC characters kind-of moot.
Goku is a genius at fighting, but he's more about the fight itself rather than who wins, take the fight against Frost and Frieza, he could have went God and wiped them out less than a second, he could have destroyed Cell, but he lives for the fight and the fight itself.

[theplottwist]

Even if he had something akin to the suit Lex Luthor uses to fight superman, good luck injuring a god.

He has a suit to fight gods. Which is something far above Lex Luthor's armor, btw.

The one who he is punching is Darkseid, whose mere presence distorts time and space if so he wishes, such is his power. The armor could also withstand Darkseid's punches -- a guy who can hold a hole in reality open. Darkseid can also withstand blows from Superman, who can lift infinity. And this all after he had fought a slew of other gods and demons before getting to Darkseid.

Though this image doesn't show that Batman actually lost, even with this armor. BUT he survived the encounter and still gave Darkseid a hard time. Again, he still managed to defeat gods smaller than Darkseid, though -- Kalibak, son of Darkseid who can resist Superman, and Glorious Godfrey -- and this after having resisted Apokoliptian gunfire from weapons meant to down gods, and after having defeated hundreds of parademons.

I'm fairly sure Batman would pull-off whatever shenanigans he'd need to defeat Goku, as I strongly believe Goku wouldn't last very long against a fully powered Darkseid.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

I'm amazed y'all are focusing on Batman's combat prowess when anyone who knows him also knows that straight up fights are not Batman's go-to. Violence for Batman plays into a) terrorizing his foes (which I think we can agree won't work on Goku who just plain doesn't scare easily) or b) as a last resort when all other options have failed. Yes, Batman *is* an impressive fighter, but that's not how he wins wars.

Batman has always been the World's Greatest Detective. He's a thinker and a shadowy manipulator. He is, essentially, what Lex Luthor would be if he was heroic, only coming to fisticuffs against a foe he knows for certain he has a way of beating in that manner. Goku, as a planet destroyer-level character, is far too strong for Batman to defeat conventionally, and Batman would recognize this fact presumably within mere HOURS of his prep period.

Batman knows he'd lose any straight up fight with Goku in short order. So there wouldn't be a fight as Batman would play to his strengths and Goku's weaknesses, which is all in the realm of the mind. Goku's ego, combined with his naivete, is like a huge crack in his armor just WAITING for Batman to find and execute an exploit. Batman would resort to psychological warfare and tear Goku down that way, only then would he move in for the kill.

Batman stalks, he studies, he calculates, he plans, and then he strikes.

To quote Rakker when he was talking about Superman vs Batman in 2007:

Remember, now, that Batman is more than just a man, even in comparison to Supes. Batman has transcended his humanity. The moment Bruce's parents were killed, so too was Bruce. It has been argued that Superman is the real man and Kent is the constructed identity, and I agree with that, but I contend that Bruce is also constructed. The millionaire playboy is an act, a mockery of humanity made to mask the terrifying darkness that is within. There is no Bruce, just as there is no Kent.

Batman is a nightmare.
Villains are afraid of him.
*Superheroes* are terrified of him.
Batman has made secret plans that detail how to take down every hero.
He is a thinker. A manipulator.
We all agree that he's smarter, but seriously, guys, next to Batman, Superman is a bloody dunce. I mean when opens his mouth to talk, Batman feels the room around him get stupider.

In this sense there would be no fight.
If Batman wanted to, the question is not *if* Batman would destroy Superman, it's *how.*
Whether it's Kryptonite, Magic, or his loved ones, Superman's weaknesses dangle out in the open, ripe for manipulation.
The god would be twisted, disassembled, and broken, emotionally and psychologically, with Batman never even coming into view.

Does anyone seriously think that Goku is immune to psychological warfare (which he is VERY not used to confronting)? Goku is used to straight up challenges, and the few times he's shown to deal with manipulative backstabby covert and in-the-shadows style antagonists who specialize in "ungentlemanly warfare", he's done so exceedingly poorly, frequently falling for traps and in general behaving EXACTLY the way his opponent wants him to.

He's gotten by such foes through sheer luck when he was a child or via being so powerful that no trap would matter as an adult, but Batman is on a whole different level from anything Goku has faced before. Goku's Ki detection won't work either as Batman's would just blend right into the background against everyone else's. And in a worst case scenario, because Ki is a natural force that ALL life forms possess, Batman would have no trouble learning how to harness it after some brief research, swiftly closing the power gap between them (Batman having trained to "Peak Human Potential", meaning he's as physically capable as any human could ever potentially be, easily edging out any human Z Fighter, and probably a few others) as much as is biologically possible to do.

Batman would also exploit Goku's character traits as a tactical advantage, as he postulated about a fight with Superman, in Batman #612:

If Clark wanted to, he could use his superspeed and squish me into the cement. But I know how he thinks. Even more than the Kryptonite, he's got one big weakness. Deep down, Clark's essentially a good person... and deep down, I'm not.

Now for my Devil's advocate section.

Realistically, should a fight happen, I think Batman would ultimately yield the fight after determining that Goku isn't a threat to Earth. He'd continue to plan for the worst in the shadows, but he'd cede the present fight to Goku in the interests of keeping the Earth safe.

[zangetsu468]

TBS also mentioned 3 months to prepare.

Batman could build a time machine in 3 months give or take?

[theplottwist]

Realistically, should a fight happen, I think Batman would ultimately yield the fight after determining that Goku isn't a threat to Earth. He'd continue to plan for the worst in the shadows, but he'd cede the present fight to Goku in the interests of keeping the Earth safe.

I strongly disagree with this, as I believe Goku's irresponsability is a major threat to Earth.

Goku may not be a threat to Earth on his own, but if the possibility of a good fight is on the table, he has already shown multiple times he doesn't give two shits about Earth. The most egregious example being letting Vegeta escape after basically having won the battle, just to have a good battle later. Krillin insists that letting Vegeta go is a terrible choice, but Goku doesn't care. His last battle with Freeza shows that he is STILL extremelly irresponsible and has learned nothing.

I find Goku's morals extremelly rotten.

Finally, I thought this thread was about developing who would win. This "he'd let him go" is not exactly the idea of "vs" I had in mind, but ok. Realistically speaking, indeed I think Batman would basically develop a master plan to defeat Goku in case he went rogue, and would let him go.

[zangetsu468]

I strongly disagree with this, as I believe Goku's irresponsability is a major threat to Earth.

Goku may not be a threat to Earth on his own, but if the possibility of a good fight is on the table, he has already shown multiple times he doesn't give two shits about Earth. The most egregious example being letting Vegeta escape after basically having won the battle, just to have a good battle later. Krillin insists that letting Vegeta go is a terrible choice, but Goku doesn't care. His last battle with Freeza shows that he is STILL extremelly irresponsible and has learned nothing.

I find Goku's morals extremelly rotten.

It's my view this is incredibly biased. As devil may care as Goku seems, if it weren't for him and the training he imparted to Gohan, the Earth would have been destroyed at least 3 times.

He is naive and also a Saiyan in blood which is why he let Vegeta live, why his actions can be seen as questionable. It is explained in DBZ that Saiyans are a warrior race, the race as a whole have questionable morals and are only interested in battle. Goku is still a saviour and the lesser of every evil in the Saiyan race. He also let Frieza live and shows mercy to his enemies even after Frieza destroyed Krillin, his best friend. I don't believe it's a sign of his morals being rotten, it's a sign of naivety and misguided morals.

Rotten would be Frieza, don't start me on that guy.

His last battle with Freeza shows that he is STILL extremelly irresponsible and has learned nothing.

No, you're incorrect. The point of FnF was that Goku learned he has to destroy his enemies or he loses everything.
He is a lunkhead, but he is not incapable of learning.

Finally, I thought this thread was about developing who would win. This "he'd let him go" is not exactly the idea of "vs" I had in mind, but ok. Realistically speaking, indeed I think Batman would basically develop a master plan to defeat Goku in case he went rogue, and would let him go.

Plottwist I respect you have your own opinions because I have mine. You've made some points I'm sure nobody had considered who isn't into the DC universe about Batman's suit pairing his strength to Gods etc (presuming it's all Mickey Mouse) and so forth. I personally am not into DC and I like Dragon Ball, so I openly admit my opinion will more than likely end in favour of the characters and series I prefer. However, I still try my best to remain open-minded just like I did back when people were debating Goku Vs Superman.

Is it fair to say that you prefer DC a lot more than DBZ? Because from reading your posts it seems to be you've got some hate towards Goku's character in general, that you find his being somewhat reprehensible. It's what I'm picking up and although your ideas are probably the most well-researched of anyone I've personally seen on CVD, your last post seems more based on emotion than it usually would be imo. 

[theplottwist]

I'm not even trying to hide it. I dislike Goku quite a lot, not because he's "overrated" or anything like that, but because of his character and how the fans portray/idealize him to be what he is obviously not meant to be. In the same hand people know very well Goku seeks only to become stronger, they also deny that Goku is absolutelly selfish and single-minded.

Goku wasn't made to be a hero, savior of Earth. His saving of Earth is a mere consequence of him eventually overpowering his foe, not an intentional act of altruism. Same with him dragging his foes to large, unpopulated areas -- this is not because of him "thinking of the people" but more because fighting in the middle of a city is a bother and he gets distracted.

On Superman stories, for instance, the villains are dragged away so no people get hurt, not because "Superman wants a good fight." The heroes see a threat as a threat, not as playtime. And the threat will NOT agree to leave the city, because the entire point of being a threat is killing people.

Goku acts extremelly selfishly and is intentionally written with a terrible moral compass. I understand that he is not evil, but not being evil doesn't exactly help his case. Akira Toriyama himself has already stated that Goku doesn't care too much about saving Earth, but more about a good battle. This reflects on him multiple times when he lets murderous enemies escape, leaves his kids to be raised by their mother alone (either because he died, or because he's training to fight which will cause him to die), lets his guard down against a guy who he should know very well is dangerous, etc etc etc. I could go the entire day listing Goku's faults and how incredibly incompetent he is due to selfishness.

This is not a hero, in my book, but an egoistic child with too much power in his hands. Goku has grown physically, but his mentality is that of a kid playing with ants.

Akira said that Goku wasn't meant to be a hero 20 years ago, and he has reiterated the same thing just before Battle of the Gods came out. And I, as a kid with no access to these info, already knew ever since then that Goku's personality was crap, and constantly asked myself why my peers regarded him as a hero when he obviously wasn't. Not only because he lacks the "must save the world to protect my loved ones" kind of empathy, but because he never learns anything.

No, you're incorrect. The point of FnF was that Goku learned he has to destroy his enemies or he loses everything.

Hell, HOW MANY MORE TIMES will Earth get destroyed or nearly destroyed until Goku FINALLY learns this? It's HIGH TIME he learned that already, no?

As you said, indeed Freeza is rotten. He's a despot, intentionaly evil. But Goku? I quote Grey's Law for Goku:

"Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."

Bottom line: My gripe with Goku is the fact he's extremelly irresponsible but played up to be much more than he really is by his fans. In a realistic scenario, Batman would place Goku VERY high in his list of threats, because that much power in the hands of a manchild can't be a good thing.

[zangetsu468]

I'll keep this short and just address one thing which I believe needs it the most. While I agree Goku's not the stereotypical hero I don't really agree with a lot of the points made.

How many more times does the Earth need to be destroyed?

1 - Kid Buu destroyed Earth once (he wasn't able to be defeated because Vegito unfused by saving the other warriors). Goku's responsibility as he thought he could defeat Majin Buu in SSJ3, but also Gotenks' and Ultimate Gohan's for not finishing Buu. (Vegito is exempt as he was trying to save them).
2 - Frieza destroyed Earth once, Goku or Vegeta could've destroyed him first. However, Frieza's planet buster was instantaneous - he basically just had to touch the Earth - and he survives in vacuums(between a roc and a hard place much). The outcome to this never changes, as soon as Gold Frieza was ass out, he uses planet buster = bye bye Earth. He's reprehensible.

It was destroyed twice, the first instance with Buu being Goku's fault.
GT doesn't count for Earth being destroyed.
Goku also sacrificed his own life in order to save the Earth from Raditz, Cell's kamikaze, decided not to come back when wished back after Cell for fear another villain would arise because of him.

Also I specifically remember in the Android saga at the very start all the Z warriors saw that a city was destroyed by the two male Androids (Dr Gero and the chubby one) and redirected the androids to another location to keep their away from civilisation. In other instances I don't  recall Goku fighting through a city with a villain aside from Beerus and that was not a fight to the death when this was happening.

One example ( if it's bad it's bad ) of a DC hero not giving a fuck, Man of Steel Superman punching his enemies through buildings rife with civilians. Doesn't make him a bad person in context just not very morally righteous for the Man of steel.

Goku is not the stereotypical hero, but I don't believe his character is rotten or reprehensible. I like DBZ, but I favour darker characters in general like Vegeta and Wolverine and am not beyond admitting whether I believe someone's character is fucked up. Staying in context , I favour Vegeta far more than Goku and admit he's done bad shit in his time, this is also proven in the Buu saga when he asks Piccolo how his treatment in other world will be, whether he'll be treated as Goku was (being able to keep his body) and the answer is no, because in DB's canon Goku is considered in that way.

Whether or not spectators, fans and people who dislike the series agree/ disagree these are the parameters set by the series created by Toriyama. Love them or hate them.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

(He says it's short but it's really not)

I actually agree with this. Goku is, at his most basic level, a good man above all else. He gets caught up in excitement and makes mistakes the same as anyone else, except for him the mistakes have much bigger consequences. Batman's made a few judgement calls as well, and it's come back to bite him. Hell, he lets the Joker live time and time again.

In the (non canon) Dark Knight Returns he even asks Joker during their final confrontation "How many people have I murdered by letting you live all those times?" to which Joker does not give an answer, but the silent answer is "thousands". At the very least. How many people has Batman's no-kill policy killed? How many have died by his inability to "do what is necessary" as Ra'as Al Ghul would say?

This is why I postulated the fight to begin with. Goku's character class is essentially a Monk to Batman's Rogue, but they are otherwise narratively similar characters that overcome any and all challenges with determination and hard work. They have both overcome countless challenges, but Goku has always done so with his fighting skills while Batman has always deployed his mind for the same. It is, fundamentally, the ULTIMATE brains vs brawn showdown.

I thought this thread was about developing who would win. This "he'd let him go" is not exactly the idea of "vs" I had in mind

Indeed it is. And I had just said how he'd win: stealthy psychological warfare.

But you want more specifics? He wouldn't go after Goku's friends because his research would show the folly of that tactic (angering Goku is a pretty effective suicide strategem). This is one time Bruce Wayne is more menacing than Batman, as he could use Bruce Wayne's resources to essentially blacklist Goku from EVERYWHERE. He'd ruin Goku's reputation, rather than Goku himself. Wayne could bribe martial arts tournaments into refusing Goku entry, run public ad campaigns that highlight the devastation Goku "causes" (even though Batman knows full well that Goku punches SECOND in most cases). He would devote everything to ensuring goku is a pariah, left without the things he loves and enjoys.

From here, Goku either succumbs to depression (removing him from the field) or decides to live in the wilds with only his family and friends for company (removing him from the field).

Batman would attack Goku by using Bruce Wayne postured as a concerned citizen to launch a series of propaganda attacks on Goku aimed to make him unwelcome on Earth. And with his determination and resources (both financial and otherwise), he'd very likely succeed.

And if Goku somehow figured out what was going on and actually attacked Batman instead of giving him a very stern "what the hell hero" speech, well, Batman would have already built an anti-Goku suit catered to Goku's weaknesses of every sort just in case.

The resulting fight would probably be a coin toss depending on how successful Batman's suit design was.