Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Classic Castlevania Threads => Topic started by: Crying Freeman on October 28, 2015, 10:52:01 AM
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We all know that Alucard said that every time the castle rises again, it takes on a different shape from the last time. I've ways wondered about the outside, though. In every game that has areas outside of the castle, its also different every time. Obviously to make new levels from a development standpoint, but are the castle's grounds affected from the castle's rise? A small review of the games down below until SOTN:
In CV1, we have the castle's front gate/wall, presumably after the bridge crossed in CV2. Since the castle has crumbled, in CV2 the front path is covered in the remnants of the structure. CV3, ruins of Wallachia, swamps, cemeteries, ancient structures, a lake surrounding the castle.
The GB games, Adventure has the forest, cave, a tower of spike traps, Belmont's Revenge caslte just appears after the other four. Legends has forest, towers, then into the castle.
CV4 has a large castle wall entrance after a small moat, horse stables, swamps like CV3, a cave like Adventure, a waterfall with small wooded mechanisms for regulating water (perhapse for the greece-structure people to fetch some water?) ancient greece-like civilization like CV3 if I remember correctly, the torture tower/cathedral(?, I have no idea what the hell stage 4 is), then the road leading up to the castle, with a small tower along the way.
Bloodlines is like CV1, small entrance. Rondo only has a few levels set in the castle, but we have swamps, Forrest's, rivers, lake, cemetary, towers, similar to the previous titles.
The 64 games REALLY confuse me. We have a forest, a castle wall, both familiar, but now, on the castle grounds, a Villa!? Why the hell is a family living here!? I think Gille de Raise had something to do with Dracula lore, so I guess that makes sense,along with what we find out about the family in LOD. Plus, the intro and ending of CV64 show the castle on a sma island, like 3, and you get in through an underground passage, but no sign of the Castle wall surrounding or Villa. SotN? Nothing. Whole game in the castle again.
But even then, how are Trevor and Richter looking at the castle from a cliff if he had to sail to the castle!? We see is on a cliff, but in the CV3 map, it isn't shown on a cliff! Plus it isnt showing the clkcktower and other towers or their bridges. Whatever.
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But even then, how are Trevor and Richter looking at the castle from a cliff if he had to sail to the castle!? We see is on a cliff, but in the CV3 map, it isn't shown on a cliff! Plus it isnt showing the clkcktower and other towers or their bridges. Whatever.
This could be justified in a number of ways. For instance, Trevor could be looking at the castle from an angle where the cliff obscures the bridge and the tower. Another explanation: Everything connected to the castle crumbled before the castle itself.
About not seeing the cliff on the map, I think we could say that the first map is a gross representation of what is there on the general area. Plus, we can't reaaaaally make out what that lump representing the castle is supposed to be (the castle only? Both castle and cliff?). However, there are TWO maps, and you can clearly see the cliff in the castle detail map (http://www.finalfantasykingdom.net/c3/c3map2.png).
Now, about the geography around the castle changing, this is due to the castle reappearing in different parts of Romania every time it's revived. You can see that by comparing CV2 with Rondo, or Curse of Darkness with SotN, or even Order of Ecclesia with Portrait of Ruin.
Sometimes the castle appears on a cliff overseeing a lake. Sometimes it rises right in the middle of a lake itself. Sometimes it appears in the middle of a wheat field with no lake in sight.
We don't know what criteria the castle uses to revive, but it certainly is not in the same place every time.
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This could be justified in a number of ways. For instance, Trevor could be looking at the castle from an angle where the cliff obscures the bridge and the tower. Another explanation: Everything connected to the castle crumbled before the castle itself.
About not seeing the cliff on the map, I think we could say that the first map is a gross representation of what is there on the general area. Plus, we can't reaaaaally make out what that lump representing the castle is supposed to be (the castle only? Both castle and cliff?). However, there are TWO maps, and you can clearly see the cliff in the castle detail map (http://www.finalfantasykingdom.net/c3/c3map2.png).
Now, about the geography around the castle changing, this is due to the castle reappearing in different parts of Romania every time it's revived. You can see that by comparing CV2 with Rondo, or Curse of Darkness with SotN, or even Order of Ecclesia with Portrait of Ruin.
Sometimes the castle appears on a cliff overseeing a lake. Sometimes it rises right in the middle of a lake itself. Sometimes it appears in the middle of a wheat field with no lake in sight.
We don't know what criteria the castle uses to revive, but it certainly is not in the same place every time.
I wasn't aware the Castle could appear in different areas, but it makes perfect sense! In Bloodlines it doesn't seem to be where it was anywhere else before.
It's coming back to me seeing the underground area map from CV3. Ive only gone through the underground once and kinda gave up at the blocks falling part ;DD True, probably just a barebones map.
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@Crying Freeman In bloodlines I'm not even certain the final castle is Castlevania, as Castlevania's remnants are in stage 1.
Then again COD had Castle ruins and a new Castlevania rose out of the ocean.
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@Crying Freeman In bloodlines I'm not even certain the final castle is Castlevania, as Castlevania's remnants are in stage 1.
Then again COD had Castle ruins and a new Castlevania rose out of the ocean.
Oh yeah I knew stage 1 in Bloodlines was Castlevania's ruins. From the map it didn't seem so similar to the other games I though. And COD I beleive there are some ruins. Need to play that game more, was like a real 3D sotn from what I remember.
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I'm playing Curse of Darkness at the moment! It is... not exactly like a 3D SotN. I mean, it does have a lot more SotN elements than LoI did but so far it just seems to be a very strictly linear experience that just happens to have item forging and customizing of armor items and weapons and stuff. It's practically just 'Stage 1', 'Stage 2' in its progression (I'm about to finish Eneomaos Machine Tower). The groundwork is there for a good 3D Metroidvania but it doesn't quite pull it all together, IMO. Anyway, it has The Abandoned Castle area which is the ruins of Dracula's Castle (from CV III, I guess).
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I'm playing Curse of Darkness at the moment! It is... not exactly like a 3D SotN. I mean, it does have a lot more SotN elements than LoI did but so far it just seems to be a very strictly linear experience that just happens to have item forging and customizing of armor items and weapons and stuff. It's practically just 'Stage 1', 'Stage 2' in its progression (I'm about to finish Eneomaos Machine Tower). The groundwork is there for a good 3D Metroidvania but it doesn't quite pull it all together, IMO. Anyway, it has The Abandoned Castle area which is the ruins of Dracula's Castle (from CV III, I guess).
I see what you mean. I do have the xbox version and I played for the first few levels. I assumed it would be like SOTN where you start a bit linearly but as you progress you get more free reign to go where you want.
I still wanna beat the game, it was REALLY fun while I played. Also like the idea of the story, with a Drac traitor as the playable character, Hector was a badass. Plus the ability to play as Trevor when you beat the game, assume its like LOI.
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I'm playing Curse of Darkness at the moment! It is... not exactly like a 3D SotN. I mean, it does have a lot more SotN elements than LoI did but so far it just seems to be a very strictly linear experience that just happens to have item forging and customizing of armor items and weapons and stuff. It's practically just 'Stage 1', 'Stage 2' in its progression (I'm about to finish Eneomaos Machine Tower). The groundwork is there for a good 3D Metroidvania but it doesn't quite pull it all together, IMO. Anyway, it has The Abandoned Castle area which is the ruins of Dracula's Castle (from CV III, I guess).
It's a bit like Simon's Quest, a lot of good elements in the game which don't necessarily marry up that well. For example, environments which link up nicely, but essentially consist of "rooms" or hallways of enemies like LOI with less platforming. COD did manage to give the feeling that the game was indeed "open" (partly by having outdoor environments) more successfully imo.
Awesome looking environments but the player ran way too slow.
Great to have a second selectable character but it should've been Isaac or SG, not Trevor.
I recall being so excited when seeing Cordova Town only to find there was no one there, no real interaction with people aside from Julia, which was actually a nice touch. (especially the Sarabande of Healing)
The music was the most redeeming factor of the experience imo, some of the best out of recent CV's.
Not a bad game just felt unfinished to me.
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Yes, some very good points about CoD zangetsu468 - though I have to say, it very rarely feels 'open' to me as the levels are just so room like - you're in the mountains or the forest or a town and they are all just hallways and rooms, never really feeling like an open environment. Speaking of the environments - they look nice, but again, I barely even register them when I'm playing because the level layouts are just so limited they don't encourage you to take in the world around you. Very disappointing, IMO.
The gameplay is fine and has some nice refinements of the system from LoI, but the level design could have been so much better. LoI suffered from the same sort of limited scope in level design. You're very right in comparing CoD to Simon's Quest - I get much more of a 3D Simon's Quest vibe from it than a 3D SotN!
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I wasn't aware the Castle could appear in different areas, but it makes perfect sense! In Bloodlines it doesn't seem to be where it was anywhere else before.
The final stage in Bloodlines isn't Castlevania although it seems to be similar. It's actually Bartly's castle~Castle Proserpina.
(?, I have no idea what the hell stage 4 is)
Stage 4 in SCV4 is called the 'Outer Keep' according the the SNES game guide I have. It's the last defensive position of Castlevania before the castle itself.
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I wasn't aware the Castle could appear in different areas, but it makes perfect sense!
The CV 3 ending shows an ocean around the Castle which crumbles into ruin. Presumably those are the ruins and the ocean is the same one in COD, baring in mind the other locations in the game (Garibaldi Temple, Forest of Jigramunt, Mortvia Aqueduct, Cordova Town, Eneomaos Machine Tower, etc) would be other existing areas. I remember there being an aqueduct like stage in CV3, and forests are commonplace particularly in backgrounds as well as stages. who knows, maybe some of these areas are related.
You know what I'd really like, an 8 bit, fully explorable CV set in the classic timeline with oldschool gameplay but new elements like special moves and super jumps. Been wishing but it's never happened.
@Coinilius You know what's strange, in a game like DMC4, I really don't care about environments that much because gameplay is prevalent and there actually are some platform-heavy elements through out. But with a game like CV it's really important and it's even more important to feel immersed in those environments. This comes down to 1) Music 2) Atmosphere 3) 'Other stuff' - like enemies, platforming etc.
The problem with 3d CV games in general is that they only do one thing correctly, and it's generally 1 and/ or 2. Imo LOD was the only game that did all 3 somewhat successfully, and I say LOD and not CV64 because 64's camera was gamebreaking at times, while LOD's was still not great but it was forgivable.
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I like CoD's camera system better than LoI's, but LoI's wasn't too bad. I think LoI pulled off the atmosphere a bit better than CoD did, although even then there are only a couple of areas that really, really stood out to me. They definitely get the music right though - but that's something the Castlevania series is usually very good at!
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I like CoD's camera system better than LoI's, but LoI's wasn't too bad. I think LoI pulled off the atmosphere a bit better than CoD did, although even then there are only a couple of areas that really, really stood out to me. They definitely get the music right though - but that's something the Castlevania series is usually very good at!
Not going to disagree, while I really love COD's music LOI's moved me more.
LOI's was more 'Vampiric' as strange as that sounds. House of Sacred remains sounds incredibly gothic but even so still slightly earthy and primal. Somehow you think of Castlevania but you know to yourself that the Dracula legend hasn't yet been born. That track is so good that it sounds like it's from another time. I'd say in terms of evoking context in a video game it's one of the best tracks I've ever heard.
This is one of my absolute favourites from LOI http://youtu.be/yNkRCwqLUiQ (http://youtu.be/yNkRCwqLUiQ) fog enshrouded nightscape. The track sounds like a Lament (one of Innocence no doubt). It's beautiful. I'm feeling quite emotionally dead right now but 1 year ago I listened and it pretty much moved me to tears.
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The final stage in Bloodlines isn't Castlevania although it seems to be similar. It's actually Bartly's castle~Castle Proserpina.
Stage 4 in SCV4 is called the 'Outer Keep' according the the SNES game guide I have. It's the last defensive position of Castlevania before the castle itself.
Thanks for the info, man :) Thing I love about old school CV, always notice or learn something new it seems
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The final stage in Bloodlines isn't Castlevania although it seems to be similar. It's actually Bartly's castle~Castle Proserpina.
On a similar note, the castle in Circle of the Moon in Austria is Carmilla's castle and not Dracula's... although thinking back, was that ever explicitly referenced in the game?
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It was in a way. The story at the intro said "At an old Austrian castle." Carmilla Karnstein being her full name, she is in fact from Austria. And the castle in CotM is apparently hers. Though granted in the game they call her Camilla but I feel that might be a misinterpretation of her name as everyone knows who the vampire Carmilla is.
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It was in a way. The story at the intro said "At an old Austrian castle." Carmilla Karnstein being her full name, she is in fact from Austria. And the castle in CotM is apparently hers. Though granted in the game they call her Camilla but I feel that might be a misinterpretation of her name as everyone knows who the vampire Carmilla is.
If you're referring to the lack of an "r" on her name, it was simply a mistranslation/typo. In japanese it is "Carmilla".
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fx9nxPKZ.png&hash=f041f416fc9c8d55bb3da23fe2d69806)
See that dash after the first symbol on her name? That is supposed to be transliterated as an "R".
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It was in a way. The story at the intro said "At an old Austrian castle." Carmilla Karnstein being her full name, she is in fact from Austria. And the castle in CotM is apparently hers. Though granted in the game they call her Camilla but I feel that might be a misinterpretation of her name as everyone knows who the vampire Carmilla is.
That's what I was thinking - that it was just the line 'At an old Austrian Castle' and the rest is just implicit based on knowledge of Vampire literature (I just finished up CotM recently - very good game). Certainly while I was playing the game I always thought that it was Carmilla's castle and she had just brought Dracula's remains there to resurrect him.
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That's what I was thinking - that it was just the line 'At an old Austrian Castle' and the rest is just implicit based on knowledge of Vampire literature (I just finished up CotM recently - very good game). Certainly while I was playing the game I always thought that it was Carmilla's castle and she had just brought Dracula's remains there to resurrect him.
The problem with this is the castle crumbling in the ending because it is indeed supposed to be CV itself. Cotm was never set in the main timeline.
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Bartly's castle also disintegrated at the end of bloodlines even though it wasn't Castlevania. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that aside from Dracula, other powerful vampires have their own magical castles or fortresses that they dwell in. And as long as they live so too does the construct in question. But unlike Castlevania these structures are not fueled by Chaos nor do they come back repeatedly. Just a magical construct meant to serve the needs of the vampire lord or lady in question. But aside from this theory i think it's a game mechanic meant to signal the end of the evil in the game.
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Bartly's castle also disintegrated at the end of bloodlines even though it wasn't Castlevania. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that aside from Dracula, other powerful vampires have their own magical castles or fortresses that they dwell in. And as long as they live so too does the construct in question. But unlike Castlevania these structures are not fueled by Chaos nor do they come back repeatedly. Just a magical construct meant to serve the needs of the vampire lord or lady in question. But aside from this theory i think it's a game mechanic meant to signal the end of the evil in the game.
Yeah that's a possibility. Do you actually fight Bartley in Bloodlines?
The thing I find contradictory of this theory is that Nathan fights and defeats Carmilla in COTM. From this theory the castle ought to crumble there and then.
If I had to hypothesise a theory it would be that Dracula's spiritual energy binds to both of these castles (being The Lord of the Vampires) and those castle then crumble once Dracula is defeated. However I do acknowledge this mechanic as being cliché Castlevania.
This brings something to mind. According to Iga's timeline "Quincy Morris keeps Dracula at bay", yet it's never expressed that Dracula's castle crumbled. Therefore I'm assuming keeping him 'at bay' either means 'not fully destroyed' or it could follow my theory that Desmond destroyed the guardian of Dracula's soul (as per the n64 titles)
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My take on both Carmilla's castle and Castle Proserpino is that when Dracula is revived they 'become' Castlevania/Dracula's Castle and become tied to him, rather than his castle reviving somewhere else, though it's all just speculation. While Circle of the Moon does feel disconnected from the series proper, it's not actually that disconnected... a prequel covering the 1820 incident could also easily give it stronger ties to the series as a whole (Richter has gone into seclusion, other groups are working to devise ways to fight Dracula, the forces of Evil are also working overtime to resurrect their lord and take advantage of the Belmont's absence, the Graves family and Morris Baldwin are one of the groups developing another weapon against Dracula, in this case a second whip made from Alchemy perhaps...), but that's a different discussion from this one.
In regards to Dracula's Castle not collapsing at the end of Bram Stokers novel... in the original ending of Dracula, it actually did!
As we looked there came a terrible convulsion of the earth so that we seemed to rock to and fro and fell to our knees. At the same moment with a roar which seemed to shake the very heavens the whole castle and the rock and even the hill on which it stood seemed to rise into the air and scatter in fragments while a mighty cloud of black and yellow smoke volume on volume in rolling grandeur was shot upwards with inconceivable rapidity.
Then there was a stillness in nature as the echoes of that thunderous report seemed to come as with the hollow boom of a thunder-clap - the long reverberating roll which seems as though the floors of heaven shook. Then down in a mighty ruin falling whence they rose came the fragments that had been tossed skywards in the cataclysm.
From where we stood it seemed as though the one fierce volcano burst had satisfied the need of nature and that the castle and the structure of the hill had sunk again into the void. We were so appalled with the suddenness and the grandeur that we forgot to think of ourselves.
You can read more about it here: http://dracula.cc/literature/bram_stoker_original_ending/ (http://dracula.cc/literature/bram_stoker_original_ending/).
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Bartly's castle also disintegrated at the end of bloodlines even though it wasn't Castlevania. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that aside from Dracula, other powerful vampires have their own magical castles or fortresses that they dwell in. And as long as they live so too does the construct in question. But unlike Castlevania these structures are not fueled by Chaos nor do they come back repeatedly. Just a magical construct meant to serve the needs of the vampire lord or lady in question. But aside from this theory i think it's a game mechanic meant to signal the end of the evil in the game.
This is correct, and we can see how it's possible in Dawn of Sorrow - Celia isn't a vampire, and even she has her own magical castle fuelled by dark power. Hers is fuelled by the flow of darkness escaping from the Abyss.
And, like X, I also think that Dracula's castle is the only "alive" and able to revive, while the others are merely magical structures fuelled by something else.
Yeah that's a possibility. Do you actually fight Bartley in Bloodlines?
Yep you do, right before Dracula. And it's implied she turns into a Medusa to fight you after her slew of tricks failed.
She screams in agony as she dies, even.
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This brings something to mind. According to Iga's timeline "Quincy Morris keeps Dracula at bay", yet it's never expressed that Dracula's castle crumbled. Therefore I'm assuming keeping him 'at bay' either means 'not fully destroyed' or it could follow my theory that Desmond destroyed the guardian of Dracula's soul (as per the n64 titles)
In the original ending of Bram Stoker's Dracula, Dracula's castle does indeed collapse into the earth after Dracula is slain.
As we looked there came a terrible convulsion of the earth so that we seemed to rock to and fro and fell to our knees. At the same moment with a roar which seemed to shake the very heavens the whole castle and the rock and even the hill on which it stood seemed to rise into the air and scatter in fragments while a mighty cloud of black and yellow smoke volume on volume in rolling grandeur was shot upwards with inconceivable rapidity.
Then there was a stillness in nature as the echoes of that thunderous report seemed to come as with the hollow boom of a thunder-clap - the long reverberating roll which seems as though the floors of heaven shook. Then down in a mighty ruin falling whence they rose came the fragments that had been tossed skywards in the cataclysm.
From where we stood it seemed as though the one fierce volcano burst had satisfied the need of nature and that the castle and the structure of the hill had sunk again into the void. We were so appalled with the suddenness and the grandeur that we forgot to think of ourselves.
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If you're saying the original ending this is not the official ending though?
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That's not how the book ends currently - that sequence was ultimately cut and does not appear in the final version that was published. But of course, the book of Dracula and the Castlevania version of the events of the book probably aren't 100% the same as each other anyway.
In any case, it's certainly an interesting coincidence that Bram Stoker originally wrote that the castle collapsed following the death of Dracula, just like the Castle does in the Castlevania series.
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That's not how the book ends currently - that sequence was ultimately cut and does not appear in the final version that was published. But of course, the book of Dracula and the Castlevania version of the events of the book probably aren't 100% the same as each other anyway.
In any case, it's certainly an interesting coincidence that Bram Stoker originally wrote that the castle collapsed following the death of Dracula, just like the Castle does in the Castlevania series.
Now that you mention this, do you remember how in the novel it says that "The Castle of Dracula now stood out against the red sky" even after Dracula's defeat?
This reminds me of this:
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette4.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fcastlevania%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fc4%2FOoS_Ending.JPG%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20090221090434&hash=301553d39cb19e163fc2437b43ffd12b)
Sure, Bram Stoker's ending happens during a sunset. But this STILL is a red sky.
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I guess that is more of a red moon sort of image though than the red sunset image of the original ending of Dracula. Still an interesting visual and comparison though - the image of Dracula's Castle silhouetted against a red sky is a very striking one, I'm surprised it isn't used more in the series.
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Is that image from AR or OOS? If not which game are we looking at here?
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BTW, Stage 4 in Super Castlevania IV is the Outer Keep only in the Nintendo Power SNES coverage.
Based on the OST name, the stage layout, and what happens in the stage, it's some sort of "Mansion of Tricks".
"Trick Manor", "Clockwork Mansion", and "Spinning Tale", lead one to believe it's a type of large mansion on the outskirts of town, not all that dissimilar from "The Villa" from CV64, only with many tricks played on the perspective of the intruder, accomplished through clockwork movements.
This is how the rooms rotate, and other rooms spin, and other rooms have crushing grindstones; clever clockwork tricks.
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It seems that the natural and made-made elements in the vicinity of the Castle are swallowed up by the Castle itself. This is why in CV64 there's a "Villa". The villa is called the "Castle Annex". So there was already a villa there, and when the Castle begins to materialize, it just engulfs the area.
Headcanon: Any good people, animals, etc. engulfed and destroyed by the walls of the castle become lost souls, which inhabit the torches and candles of the castle.
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Is that image from AR or OOS? If not which game are we looking at here?
That is from the ending of OoS.
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Headcanon: Any good people, animals, etc. engulfed and destroyed by the walls of the castle become lost souls, which inhabit the torches and candles of the castle.
On that note - the Merchant in Harmony of Dissonance mentions that he was caught up in a dense fog on his travels and 'ended up' in Dracula's Castle. If we take that at face value, it seems that the Castle materialized around him and he found himself trapped inside it... although he was able to 'set up shop' and didn't become a lost soul/candle.
Edit: Whoops, accidental double post.
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Headcanon: Any good people, animals, etc. engulfed and destroyed by the walls of the castle become lost souls, which inhabit the torches and candles of the castle.
Then we kill those candles to get hearts and money. hahaha.
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Then we kill those candles to get hearts and money. hahaha.
We're releasing their trapped souls lol
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Then we kill those candles to get hearts and money. hahaha.
Don't forget killing the masonry to get the delicious roasted meats within...
The Castle is a "creature" of chaos, a living breathing entity which means that when eaten, the Castle's flesh itself is being ingested!
Mindblown ;D
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Don't forget killing the masonry to get the delicious roasted meats within...
The Castle is a "creature" of chaos, a living breathing entity which means that when eaten, the Castle's flesh itself is being ingested!
Mindblown ;D
The Belmonts must really have stomachs of steel.
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The Belmonts must really have stomachs of steel.
Just one out of the many reasons why they're so baddass 8)