Topic: Castlevania: Lords of Shadow - Mirror of Fate 3DS (Discussion Thread)

[e105beta]

Enemies taking over 9000 hits to kill is just counter intuitive in a tight 2D action game. The combat for Mirror of Fate is rooted in 3D gameplay theory, and restricting it to 2D is really hurting it.

If this was 3D, you could just go around the enemy and continue attacking, keeping the combat flowing and rake in more hits quickly. In 2D you need to back off, and wait. This makes slogging through the enemies a tedious and longer process than in Lords of Shadow.

Only that's not true. Dodging backwards before resuming attacking takes no more time in a 2D game than it does dodging sideways before resuming attacking in a 3D game.

There's also the fact that you can jump over or block attacks and instantly continue attacking, or the fact that even if you do retreat instead of something more twitch, you are given range options to close the gap.

[uzo]

Your dodge area is incredibly restricted compared to a 3D environment. Not all attacks will allow you to get back in range in time. You cant just side step and go around them to continue the flow of attack. The concept flows much much better in 3D than it ever will in 2D as they have it here. Just watch the people playing the demo.

There are ways to fix this if you balance other factors right, but they simply chose to shoe horn LoS gameplay in almost verbatim without consideration for the 2D plane restrictions. It ends up coming off as silly and clunky.

EDIT:

Also when Trevor is whip swinging he looks like this;

[e105beta]

Your dodge area is incredibly restricted compared to a 3D environment. Not all attacks will allow you to get back in range in time. You cant just side step and go around them to continue the flow of attack. The concept flows much much better in 3D than it ever will in 2D as they have it here. Just watch the people playing the demo.

There are ways to fix this if you balance other factors right, but they simply chose to shoe horn LoS gameplay in almost verbatim without consideration for the 2D plane restrictions. It ends up coming off as silly and clunky.

EDIT:

Also when Trevor is whip swinging he looks like this;

Your dodge range might be limited, but the enemy is limited to the exact same two dimensions. Instead of enemies shockwaving and side swiping like they did in LoS to keep you in check, they would just focus more on thrusting and chopping attacks. As long as the enemy AI allows for jumping to be a reliable defense (which it didn't in LoS) that point is moot.

And the length of the whip on a basic direct attack is >= than the dodge roll distance, so horizontal range really doesn't seem like much the problem you're making it out to be, and if you're really pining for that extra half-second of hits if you end up too far, an area attack can be anywhere from 45% - 90% of the screen.

I think this guy really is just bad. Everything about the way he moves Trevor screams it. He walks face first into the bosses, and can't time his jumps very well. He also never blocks, and never does much beyond "mash mash mash unsituational attacks". I really don't think this has anything to do with dodge range or mechanical fluidity.

Then again, we won't really know until the game comes out.

[thernz]

wait why is there even an area attack if there's no 3D space (and i really doubt that there will be any enemy crowding (congested enemy placement is pretty much the worse thing you can do in a 2D game))
it's not like the enemies flinch/slow much from those attacks either

huh




i agree that the guy playing is pretty terrible though

[VladCT]

If that noob is what we have for an average gamer, then I fear we may have already descended into darker times.

[e105beta]

wait why is there even an area attack if there's no 3D space (and i really doubt that there will be any enemy crowding (congested enemy placement is pretty much the worse thing you can do in a 2D game))
it's not like the enemies flinch/slow much from those attacks either

huh




i agree that the guy playing is pretty terrible though

Low risk low reward distance strikes? That's what I figure. Cox also said something about blocking projectiles.

[thernz]

that seems pretty useless with the large amount of health enemies have and lack of needing crowd control and projectiles
its inclusion probably influenced how badly the player played

yes, it's a standard for players to be expected to play well if they want to succeed, but it's also the responsibility of the game designer to guide the player into that direction. the only feedback is that enemies now take a dozen hits, and as you can tell from people's reactions, that's really vague feedback if you actually can dispatch enemies in far lesser hits. i'm aware it's only a demo, but that probably makes it even more important to show your mechanics.

hopefully, the full game is better at explaining itself.
(ofc i dont mean like blatant tutorials and etc, you can be much more subtle about things. that is part of design too.)

[e105beta]

that seems pretty useless with the large amount of health enemies have and lack of needing crowd control and projectiles
its inclusion probably influenced how badly the player played

yes, it's a standard for players to be expected to play well if they want to succeed, but it's also the responsibility of the game designer to guide the player into that direction. the only feedback is that enemies now take a dozen hits, and as you can tell from people's reactions, that's really vague feedback if you actually can dispatch enemies in far lesser hits. i'm aware it's only a demo, but that probably makes it even more important to show your mechanics.

hopefully, the full game is better at explaining itself.
(ofc i dont mean like blatant tutorials and etc, you can be much more subtle about things. that is part of design too.)

Yeah, the difference in impact between the two types of strikes could be much better communicated as of now.

[DragonSlayr81]

The way I understood it is this... It's like a Metroidvania in that the castle is one big level you traipse around, getting power ups that let you access areas previously off-limits. It's not a Metroidvania in that you don't get loots or beef up your character by killing guys, as experience is strictly for buying new combos.

I always thought the first one WAS what Metroidvanias were. I mean, the whole "getting loot and beef up your characters" through leveling and gaining battle experience were more RPG asspects. Hell, I even remember that's exactly what people were saying when SotN came out, that it was a Metroid-like game with RPG-like aspects.

I always felt Metroidvania was more "free exploration of a large area where you gain new abilities to reach areas you could not reach previously". That's extremely Metroid-like. Though, when I think of those, I tend to separate battle with exploration. Most Metroidvanias tend to use RPG-like experience systems, though I don't think that is definitive to the Metroidvania style(or has to be definitive).

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

If that noob is what we have for an average gamer, then I fear we may have already descended into darker times.

I read that last part of the sentence in Patrick Stewart's voice.
"THESE ARE DARK TIMES."

[Flame]

Glad i'm not the only one.

[Sumac]

The way I understood it is this... It's like a Metroidvania in that the castle is one big level you traipse around, getting power ups that let you access areas previously off-limits. It's not a Metroidvania in that you don't get loots or beef up your character by killing guys, as experience is strictly for buying new combos.

For me "metroidvania" is a free exploration game, where all levels merged in one big map and you must find upgrades to procced into the locked areas. RPG elements are not neccesary for that definition, since metroid-like gameplay could exist without them.

[sprkywlnt73]

Man. I can't wait to play these!

[crisis]

random useless fact: Wing Nut's favorite activity is "Castlevania 2095"

[Havatchu]

God I love that game

I assume his design is based off of Gaibon?