Topic: Do you think Castlevania is dead?

[Flame]

Was it really in a pinch before SotN? I mean stuff like Bloodlines and Dracula X weren't that far behind.

if anything the N64 games did a number of the franchise, as well as the cancellation of the dreamcast game. But SotN did well, so nobody really noticed. I mean, its not like now, where all this info is readily available and we can all spell doom and gloom.

[The Silverlord]

There's a great potential for the series now.

I don't think Lords of Shadow 2 performed well.  There were rumours that Mecurysteam bosses mishandled it, that it endured a troubled development, and talent like their lead artist Jose Luis Vaello walked due to having little freedom.  Konami would want to steer clear, if true, with them likely having to rethink the series' direction / strategy.

In addition, there's was the public outcry at the change in the series pace/aesthetic/gameplay/music/marketing since Dave Cox came on board.  It has been at times loud and scathing. I think there has been more dissent than goodwill, overall, here and on forums like NeoGaf.

Lords 1 proved there's still money in it though.  Castlevania threads still pop up often around the interwebs.  Today, consoles are selling like hotcakes.  Dark gothic horror has arguably never been more popular, with games releasing like Bloodbourne, Dark Souls and The Evil Within.

Find a new producer in-house, and/or outsource, release a new game on consoles, and win over the fans again.  For many who hated the prior regime, from ashes, Castlevania has arisen from the grave.

[Nagumo]

In addition, there's was the public outcry at the change in the series pace/aesthetic/gameplay/music/marketing since Dave Cox came on board.  It has been at times loud and scathing. I think there has been more dissent than goodwill, overall, here and on forums like NeoGaf.

I wonder how bad the dissent is. I think overall people were far more accepting of the metroidvanias. There's a thread on Neogaf lamenting the direction Castlevania/Konami in general has taken every couple of months or so. 

[zaxiou]

People accepted Metroidvanias because they still looked, played, felt like CV. LoS was pretty much the opposite of it. It was a good game shadowed by the weight of it's title's legacy. Konami could've just made LoS a new IP and have a good franchise at hand if they hadn't dubbed it Castlevania.

[Shinobi]

^Nah, most of people who said that are just grown up with the SOTN than the games before SOTN,there's even a trend of those who skipped or doesn't prefer the Metroidvania titles who still consider LOS as Castlevania game. Most butthurt SOTN fanboys consider LOS as GOW clone even up to now but I think it's a right evolution from Classicvania rather than Metroidvania which also copied the elements of the other game like Super Metroid, I read somewhere before in game magazines or around the net that GOW is what Castlevania 3d supposed to look like than Lament of Innocence did and IGA get mad about it.

[Flame]

I somehow doubt that GoW has anything to do with Castlevania. it's completely opposite to the stuff that made Castlevania (any form of it) popular.

Even LoS1 has many classic elements, and really plays more like Lament than GoW. that said, lament is an attempt at 3D metroidvania, while LoS1 is more of a 3D classicvania.

and I doubt theres THAT many people crying out about LoS. I suppose after LoS2 they are somewhat justified, but for just LoS1? hardly. it really is mostly just people who only know and associate with IGA's Metroidvanias, who can't accept anything else.

[The Silverlord]

and I doubt theres THAT many people crying out about LoS. I suppose after LoS2 they are somewhat justified, but for just LoS1? hardly.

Even the game's producer, Dave Cox, knew what was coming:

'"Some of you will not like what we are doing and I make no apologies for that. This is not the Castlevania you know. I said at E3, "Forget everything you know about Castlevania," and I meant it.

I know some of you will come along for the ride and some of you won't. I knew this when I originally pitched this and so did Konami management, but the sad fact is that this tiny minority who cling to the same formula are just that, a tiny minority, and pandering to the likes of them has made the series unattractive to the market at large and resulted in a tiny number of sales.'

http://www.chapelofresonance.com/articles/dave-cox.html

Forget whether it was justified or not, there actually was that many people 'crying out about LoS'.  The "aesthetics" were likened to Lord of the Rings, or something out of high fantasy, and not in a good way.  It's probably best left unsaid what some people thought of its story and narrative, and the musical score.  Its titans?  Let's not go there. 

Let's not bury our head in the sand and say it was a smooth ride for the fanbase.  There was great division here, and it felt to me like there was real animosity and hostility at times towards Dave Cox and the new direction.   

But it is what it is, and we are where we are.

[Nagumo]

Exactly. The discourse among the fanbase is totally different now than it was before LoS. Not saying before then it were the good old days, but it has certainly become more....toxic. 

Cox is also being pretty blunt there isn't he? I totally forgot that he said that, but wow.   

[The Silverlord]

Exactly. The discourse among the fanbase is totally different now than it was before LoS. Not saying before then it were the good old days, but it has certainly become more....toxic. 

Cox is also being pretty blunt there isn't he? I totally forgot that he said that, but wow.   

It felt to me like it was toxic back then too.  A sense that Cox had came in, and was trampling over the series roots.  Where were the candles, the gothic backgrounds, the old enemies?  The music the series was renowned for had been replaced with a movie score . . . and so forth.  It felt like scathing criticism.  But it was what Cox had alluded to in that early interview.

[piscesdreams]

I remember buying the premium edition of LoS with the soundtrack. I bought the game day one and popped that cd in on my ride home, excited like a kid. But when the only familiar music was the waterfalls bit and the rest was pretty much new, I knew my nostalgia boner was in trouble.

The problem is, LoS would have been probably more widely accepted by the fanbase, if Konami just left the title as Lords of Shadow. But I get it, it is a new name and they wanted to sell copies. Same thing with Super Mario Bros 2. Except then they did not have their series well established and could get away with the huge difference. Dont listen to me I am rambling...rabble rabble....pitchforks....torches.

[Kingshango]

It felt to me like it was toxic back then too.  A sense that Cox had came in, and was trampling over the series roots.  Where were the candles, the gothic backgrounds, the old enemies?  The music the series was renowned for had been replaced with a movie score . . . and so forth.  It felt like scathing criticism.  But it was what Cox had alluded to in that early interview.

Then there was that whole "There will be no QTE's." comment Cox made and we all know how that panned out.


Now that I think about it, as years go by im starting to suspect that the inclusion of QTE's was merely executive meddling by people above Cox and were added in the last minute. But that's just me and my tin foil hat.

[Flame]

Forget whether it was justified or not, there actually was that many people 'crying out about LoS'.

he still calls it a minority though, and the fact is, if he cares at all about the franchise, (which according to him he does) it makes sense to as the what was it, producer? give fair warning that this entry in the series will be somewhat different than what people are used to.

by the same token however, i can't help but feel that the "forget what you know about castlevania" was just a buzzword for marketing, considering he also says how LoS had lots of inspiration from Super Castlevania, his personal favorite. And I see it, as well. Lots of the early environments (swamps, ruins etc)give off that sort of vibe, not to mention the only classic CV music is, (aside from the Dracula battle from CV1 used for Carmilla, the portion of "The Beginning hidden at the end of Final Confrontation, and the death jingle ) from SCIV. The Waterfall, the Courtyard, are the two most prominently used tracks in the game. Arguably Vampire Killer as well, though that's more of a franchise staple, not so much "because it was in SCIV"

it really feels like a 3D modernized classicvania to me, and it feels like, if notsimply marketing, the phrase was aimed more at Metroidvania fans, or fans in general, who had grown very accustomed to IGA's metroidvania outings. i mean, in regards to that- LoS is certainly alien.


 

The "aesthetics" were likened to Lord of the Rings, or something out of high fantasy, and not in a good way.

Which i always felt was rediculous, and really weeds out those who never played classicvanias in their life. Games like SCIV, or CV3, don't take place in the castle entirely. They go through ancient ruins, forests, swamps, all that shit. MS took those concepts and fleshed them out. so the ancient ruins are sort of a sunset-like environment, leading up to the "dark" land of the vampires, which starts out daytime, and quickly becomes dark and snowy.

It also sounds rediculous when it was nothing like Lord of the Rings, which makes me wonder if those people ever watched that either.

"b-but trolls and goblins!!!!" they'll say. And yet, those were all in IGAvanias. Along with curry throwing skeletons and all other manner of strange creatures. Why is it suddenly a problem when LoS does it? It's not like you find those beasts in the castle, or in the land of the dead. they exist only in the early, forest/ruins areas, when you aren't fighting werewolves and wargs.

 

It's probably best left unsaid what some people thought of its story and narrative,

Story and narrative was really fine, and not really all that different from standard fare. "belmont wants to save his girl". the only twist being the fact that she's dead and he wants to bring her back to life, and the reveal that Zobek mind controlled him into killing her himself. I'll agree on the plot twist of SURPRISE, IM DRACULA! being really unnecessary, especially when the ending was fine as it was. a bittersweet "I saved the world, but could save my girl" type deal, sort of paralleling Leon's story, where he defeated Walter, but couldn't save Sarah. In retrospect i kind of wish they hadn't gone about the Dracula thing the way they did. Overall, while unneeded, I was ok with gabe being Dracula, if they played it right, but they seemed to have NOT done that. His transformation is ridiculously hamfisted as a pair of rushed DLC's, when it could have been something that took more time to develop. then there's LoS2 which fucks with his characterization further, after MoF had established it fairly well.
 
 

and the musical score.

maybe i'm just more accepting of change, but I found literally nothing wrong with the music outside of the fact that they opted for "atmospheric" music instead of stage by stage music- which is fine- if they hadn't used "stage" music for that. it's somewhat awkward. although, Waterfall does serve as a pretty serene choice for platforming/puzzle music.

Its titans?  Let's not go there. 

definitely a bit too derivative, but they didn't really bother me either. they reminded me of golem bosses with a twist.

Let's not bury our head in the sand and say it was a smooth ride for the fanbase.  There was great division here, and it felt to me like there was real animosity and hostility at times towards Dave Cox and the new direction.   

there definitely was, but I still dont get why. it's one thing to not be 100% onboard with it, but.... I dunno. maybe it's just because I enjoyed LoS for what it was, and as a Castlevania game, that people hating it so venomously just seems so weird and I just don't get it. It just seems like, compared to other fanbases, Castlevania is impossible to please, as everyone has totally different opinions on what makes a "true" castlevania game.

[zaxiou]

definitely a bit too derivative, but they didn't really bother me either. they reminded me of golem bosses with a twist.
there definitely was, but I still dont get why. it's one thing to not be 100% onboard with it, but.... I dunno. maybe it's just because I enjoyed LoS for what it was, and as a Castlevania game, that people hating it so venomously just seems so weird and I just don't get it. It just seems like, compared to other fanbases, Castlevania is impossible to please, as everyone has totally different opinions on what makes a "true" castlevania game.

Because Nostalgia and being used to the previous formula so much that seeing something drastically different would either make them think about it or dismiss it all together. And because of the title's legacy, even faults which might appear to be minor such as a few annoying boss battles got blown up so much. I personality don't even remember anything bad about the Titan boss. But every now and then I read how it is what's ruining the series  and other such nonsense.

[JayDominus]

Yeah, pretty much. Which is unfortunate, but understandable - let's be fair here, shall we, the series was struggling to stay relevant before the reboot, was brought back to the spotlight with the reboot and then was promtly shot in the head under said spotlight with Lords of Shadow 2 being the mess it was.

Capcom's also retarded.

Even Sega knows to stick to their prize franchise regardless of ups and downs, and they are pretty stupid too.

Well, thing is though, if we're going by that parallel, Capcom's prize franchise isn't Mega Man - it's Resident Evil. Yeah, Mega Man is older, but Resident Evil is the one that's bringing the dough while making the fans cry (just like Sonic). Konami's prize franchise is Metal Gear, which, to my memory, didn't have an outright bad game yet. They have other long runners, yeah, but these are their primary moneymakers. Mega Man and Castlevania, while important, no doubt about that, aren't their premier franchises.
And Sega doesn't know jack about handling their non-premier franchises, otherwise we would have Streets of Rage, Shinobi and Golden Axe games (How hard it is to make a hack-n-slash sword and sorcery game in the Golden Axe universe? Come on). Then again, Sega didn't know jack ever since 32X and I speak that as a Sega fan.

[Flame]

Resident evil isn't their mascot franchise though.  Sonic is Sega's Mascot, just like Mario is for Nintendo.

Mega Man is the face of Capcom. Or, at least was until they let him fall by the wayside. Resident evil is their cash cow though.

I wouldn't say Castlevania was ever really Konami's mascot franchise though. I'd say Snake probably has that title.