Castlevania Dungeon Forums
Off Topic => Off Topic => Topic started by: Ratty on August 14, 2014, 04:49:31 AM
-
The police force in this highly segregated town have clamped down on protests over one the latest in a terrifyingly long string of Police shootings of unarmed young black men. They aren't just trying to silence amateurs with cell phone cameras this time but also media professionals. Here's an account of one at least two reporters, who along with others had peacefully been using the local wi-fi enabled McDonald's as a base of operations, who were assaulted by Police and arrested without charge or cause.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-ferguson-washington-post-reporter-wesley-lowery-gives-account-of-his-arrest/2014/08/13/0fe25c0e-2359-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-ferguson-washington-post-reporter-wesley-lowery-gives-account-of-his-arrest/2014/08/13/0fe25c0e-2359-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html)
Here are some highlights from that:
"“My hands are behind my back,” I said. “I’m not resisting. I’m not resisting.” At which point one officer said: “You’re resisting. Stop resisting.”
That was when I was most afraid — more afraid than of the tear gas and rubber bullets.
As they took me into custody, the officers slammed me into a soda machine, at one point setting off the Coke dispenser. They put plastic cuffs on me, then they led me out the door."
"The officers led us outside to a police van. Inside, there was a large man sitting on the floor between the two benches. He began screaming: “I can’t breathe! Call a paramedic! Call a paramedic!”
Ryan and I asked the officers if they intended to help the man. They said he was fine. The screaming went on for the 10 to 15 minutes we stood outside the van.
“I’m going to die!” he screamed. “I’m going to die! I can’t breathe! I’m going to die!” "
Both the reporters were later released without any charges. Though they were told they were arrested for "trespassing on a McDonalds" and that's how they treat the PRESS.
There are also reports that Police are jamming cell phone signals going out of the town.
Here are some statistics on the town. From Mother Jones. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/10-insane-numbers-ferguson-killing (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/10-insane-numbers-ferguson-killing)
In a town that's 60% black, only 3 of the 53 police officers are black. 1 city council member and no members of the school board are black. Blacks are disproportionately arrested and searched even though whites are more often found to be carrying illegal substances when they are searched, with a ratio of 1/3 whites to 1/5 blacks. 25% of the town overall is below the poverty line, 28% of blacks are below the poverty line. And now with this shooting of an unarmed young man peaceful protests are being dispersed with tear gas and other brutal methods while the police try to silence both the public and the media. Amazingly even as this story is front page news as far away as Australia, most mainstream news networks have ignored or completely sugarcoated what's going on in the United States.
Here's some of the protestors. Their hands up to show they are unarmed and won't violently resist arrest.
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F31.media.tumblr.com%2F622ae1e2c0ef12a3056fb8cc4c3ccdc5%2Ftumblr_na8v987iGn1qdl2sco8_500.jpg&hash=1962233c9b50e61da1e03d083a00254a)
Here's the police mocking the protestors.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu-NAybIMAEGiM7.jpg:large)
-
I am actually quite shocked by this. It's not like I haven't heard about police brutality and in many cases light penalties by the judicial system in America in cases where white men have killed black teenagers, claiming it was done in self-defense. But I always used to see Rage Against the Machine's "Killing in the name" as a bit of as exaggeration. Even though one has to assume some police departments may be corrupted or racist, the US has undergone many changes and I suppose it has a high number of black policemen.
On the other hand, I know that there are many bad neighborhoods (I would not say black neighborhoods because the problem is not unique to the black community) where the crime level, especially teenage crime, is so high that the police is scared of getting into. Not fighting the crime level and gangs there hurts, first and foremost, the residents of those neighborhoods who are stuck with a low standard of living and find it more difficult to escape their poverty.
I would be interested to hear PFG's comment on this.
***********************************************************************************************
I've been away from this forum for a while. I don't know whether I should share this, but it's been a horrible period in my country lately. As many of you probably heard, the Hamas organization governing Gaza has pulled Israel into another conflict by launching rockets attacks and infiltrations, and in response Israel launched operation "Protective Edge" for destroying the military capabilities of Hamas. The operation was completed, but with no political results. Hamas has been leading a round of temporary ceasefires while refusing the terms Egypt and Israel set for a permanent one. Voices has been raised in Israel saying that the situation, of repeated armed conflicts that has continued since the Hamas takeover of Gaza in 2007, cannot go on, and that Israel has no choice but to reoccupy the Gaza Strip to drive out the Hamas militants and leadership.
Meanwhile, the media and international institutions were being very critical of Israel, while at the same time not condemning the crimes of Hamas against Israel and the population of Gaza, who suffers the most from Hamas' violence and violations of human rights.
It seems like the entire middle east is going crazy, with ISIS taking over parts of Iraq and Syria, committing gruesome crimes against humanity and creating humanitarian catastrophes. In comparison to those guys, Bashar Assad, the autocrat of Syria who killed hundreds of thousands of his men in the civil war, seems like a nice guy.
This extremism is pulling our world to the dumpster, and in our global society, don't think any place is safe.
*sigh*
-
Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. Those men in uniform have betrayed the oaths of which they swore to uphold. Personally if I were in charge of the police in that state I would round up every single one of those officers and lock 'em up good. I would also make an example of them to others about what NOT to do while wearing the uniform. The rules an officer of the law must follow are; To serve the public trust, Protect the innocent, Uphold the law. Those men in uniform seriously overstepped their authority and should be forced to pay a very, very high price for their abuse of power. It's just absolutely disgusting!
@Mooning Freddy. I knew you were absent for a while but had no idea that it was about the conflict. You okay over there?
-
If you guys wanna feel a little better, check this out:
http://news.yahoo.com/turmoil-tear-gas-way-hope-ferguson-053336976.html (http://news.yahoo.com/turmoil-tear-gas-way-hope-ferguson-053336976.html)
-
I am actually quite shocked by this. It's not like I haven't heard about police brutality and in many cases light penalties by the judicial system in America in cases where white men have killed black teenagers, claiming it was done in self-defense. But I always used to see Rage Against the Machine's "Killing in the name" as a bit of as exaggeration. Even though one has to assume some police departments may be corrupted or racist, the US has undergone many changes and I suppose it has a high number of black policemen.
On the other hand, I know that there are many bad neighborhoods (I would not say black neighborhoods because the problem is not unique to the black community) where the crime level, especially teenage crime, is so high that the police is scared of getting into. Not fighting the crime level and gangs there hurts, first and foremost, the residents of those neighborhoods who are stuck with a low standard of living and find it more difficult to escape their poverty.
I would be interested to hear PFG's comment on this.
***********************************************************************************************
I've been away from this forum for a while. I don't know whether I should share this, but it's been a horrible period in my country lately. As many of you probably heard, the Hamas organization governing Gaza has pulled Israel into another conflict by launching rockets attacks and infiltrations, and in response Israel launched operation "Protective Edge" for destroying the military capabilities of Hamas. The operation was completed, but with no political results. Hamas has been leading a round of temporary ceasefires while refusing the terms Egypt and Israel set for a permanent one. Voices has been raised in Israel saying that the situation, of repeated armed conflicts that has continued since the Hamas takeover of Gaza in 2007, cannot go on, and that Israel has no choice but to reoccupy the Gaza Strip to drive out the Hamas militants and leadership.
Meanwhile, the media and international institutions were being very critical of Israel, while at the same time not condemning the crimes of Hamas against Israel and the population of Gaza, who suffers the most from Hamas' violence and violations of human rights.
It seems like the entire middle east is going crazy, with ISIS taking over parts of Iraq and Syria, committing gruesome crimes against humanity and creating humanitarian catastrophes. In comparison to those guys, Bashar Assad, the autocrat of Syria who killed hundreds of thousands of his men in the civil war, seems like a nice guy.
This extremism is pulling our world to the dumpster, and in our global society, don't think any place is safe.
*sigh*
Your shocked by this?! Coming from you Freddy I am surprised. Don't let that "bad neighborhood" sh*t fool you. That's just the propaganda the media machine wants you to believe. I've been through my share of "bad neighborhoods" and generally like anywhere else if you mind your own business, don't flash your sh*t, and just be aware of your surroundings you are left alone. Media always want you to think that stuff like this always happens in just the hood. Couldn't been that bad seeing how that "unarmed black teen" was well on his way to college and didn't even fall under being portrayed as a "thug." (The new "N" Word...)
And just because the US likes to throw out the "look how many black people we hired" (which really still insist the case) Affirmative Action took care of that a long time ago. Frankly I am not surprised, especially after seeing and experiencing the rampant discrimination from law enforcement during Hurricane Katrina and countless other things in the past 20 years and beyond.
To me this is just like the LA Riots: Part Two.
You be safe Freddy. You are on right about the world becoming a dumpster. I am a black military man with no criminal record, never done drugs, kept my nose clean. (Yes, I am a square.) Etc. and had my share of racial stuff especially living in the South. My wife is mixed and from Berlin and even though she had her fill of discrimination she had quite the culture shock when she came to the US so it's interesting to hear other people from other countries than the US opinions on matters like that. God know the United States wore out it's welcome a long time ago. I love my country, but living in this racist and now sissified version of America sucks now. I am about to have my first child soon and it does put a perspective on how crappier things have become when it involves people and how they treat one another.
-
If you think you already know what happened between Michael Brown and Darren Wilson, then you've bought into the media hype and ought to be ashamed of yourself. You weren't there. The only thing we can say for sure is that looting and rioting are absolutely inappropriate responses to any incident.
The police are constantly misrepresented. A vocal minority of the public with no comprehension of legal standards and no belief in media bias is constantly playing up every incident to make the police look evil and corrupt. It's entirely possible that Officer Wilson could have murdered Mr. Brown intentionally. It's also entirely possible that Officer Wilson shot Mr. Brown in self defense as Mr. Brown was trying to disarm him. We don't know. And until more information comes to light, you're just making a fool of yourself by spouting off your uninformed opinion.
-
If you think you already know what happened between Michael Brown and Darren Wilson, then you've bought into the media hype and ought to be ashamed of yourself. You weren't there. The only thing we can say for sure is that looting and rioting are absolutely inappropriate responses to any incident.
And according to witnesses the looting was isolated to a small group of people on a single day. If the police hadn't enforced a media blackout because they didn't want people to know what was really going on, then maybe we'd have a more unbiased source to go on.
The police are constantly misrepresented. A vocal minority of the public with no comprehension of legal standards and no belief in media bias is constantly playing up every incident to make the police look evil and corrupt. It's entirely possible that Officer Wilson could have murdered Mr. Brown intentionally. It's also entirely possible that Officer Wilson shot Mr. Brown in self defense as Mr. Brown was trying to disarm him. We don't know. And until more information comes to light, you're just making a fool of yourself by spouting off your uninformed opinion.
Witnesses who WERE there have said that Brown was either fleeing with his hands up or was facing the cop with his hands up. Except for the police, who's official story was that the shot was fired inside the car during a fight. Considering that the cops had not interviewed key witnesses to the murder over half a week after the fact though, this might not be surprising. The cops apparently DID make sure to show up to his memorial service the day he was killed with guns and attack dogs. Then rolled out in military gear in response to peaceful protests. At which they shot tear gas, rubber bullets and eventually wooden pellets.
Ferguson Riot Police Open Fire Into Peaceful Protest (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO1SKC6dK7o#ws)
One of these protests even had a State Senator in it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/13/state-senator-ferguson_n_5676766.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/13/state-senator-ferguson_n_5676766.html)
They also fired tear gas at journalists before illegally dismantling their cameras.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu_uJoEIEAEkNgJ.jpg)
(https://31.media.tumblr.com/a53ff18ad87b327159bb963a5af5b18b/tumblr_nab4llaf7I1rmn9yfo2_1280.jpg)
Almost as if they had something to hide. Like, say, their brutal tactics not being justified by the situation. Because surely if they were facing such strong violent resistance they would want the media there to document the need for their extreme measures.
This is I believe the 4th case of police killing an unarmed black man in a month nationally. And this is the first killing of the year in a town that's 60% black but only has 3 black police officers out of a force of 53.
-
If you think you already know what happened between Michael Brown and Darren Wilson, then you've bought into the media hype and ought to be ashamed of yourself. You weren't there. The only thing we can say for sure is that looting and rioting are absolutely inappropriate responses to any incident.
The police are constantly misrepresented. A vocal minority of the public with no comprehension of legal standards and no belief in media bias is constantly playing up every incident to make the police look evil and corrupt. It's entirely possible that Officer Wilson could have murdered Mr. Brown intentionally. It's also entirely possible that Officer Wilson shot Mr. Brown in self defense as Mr. Brown was trying to disarm him. We don't know. And until more information comes to light, you're just making a fool of yourself by spouting off your uninformed opinion.
Some good points, but I don't agree what with you said about this:
The police are constantly misrepresented.
Since when?! Not saying that I am the expert or anything, but with my experience with the Military and Law enforcement I have had my fair share of encounters of racists, bigots, etc. Hell I have had issues with some of my fellow officers that wanted to do harm to me just because of my skin color, hiding tickets that I wrote, etc. I have had Supervisors that even encouraged officers to racially profile people that we stop for Probable Cause. I.E. if you see this kinda car with rims and a minority is driving it then it must have some drugs in it and you should find a reason to pull it over, things like that.
I think you are jumping to assumptions that everyone is out for the police. Just because you have some authority does not give you the right to treat people anyway you feel fit. We have laws that we are governed by. What warrants that kind of Use of Force to unarmed citizens and news reporters. Really? Running point at news reporters with an M16 in a tactical stance? That's just absurd.
Don't get me wrong though, there are always those A Holes that try to play the system. You pulled me over because of this and that even when you feel that you are justified...they are just as bad as the corrupt ones in any job not just Law Enforcement or the Military.
-
Since when?!
Are you a LEO? The way you talk about your experience, writing tickets, and having a supervisor telling you to make traffic stops, it sounds like you are. Have you never had a story completely misrepresented by the media? I'm an officer. I see it probably on a monthly basis here in Green Bay, if not more often. If it's that common in little ol' GB, I'm sure it's common everywhere. It's frustrating, because there are incidents involving me that are dragged through the media and turned into something that has nothing to do with what actually happened, just because it makes a good story. And after that, I'll have people mentioning that incident and telling me how corrupt the police are, not realizing that I have first-hand knowledge of what actually happened, and they don't.
Of course this doesn't mean that police never do any wrong. But the media is constantly twisting things, and people eat it up because they want to believe the police are corrupt. You really have to question what you hear about in the news. Even video evidence can be twisted, because it shows one angle at one brief moment in time. (Think about instant replay in sporting events, and how different angles on one play can tell different stories.) Eye witness accounts are not always accurate either. Witnesses have their own biases and agendas, and sometimes the human mind fills in things that the eyes don't actually see.
So yes, maybe you're Ratty and you've already made up your mind on something you don't know anything about. Maybe you hated police or you hated young Black people before this story came out, so your mind is already made up. But if you're wise, you keep an open mind, and you consider that the media might just not be giving you the full story, then you'll see that reserving judgment is best.
Whatever you do, just don't go out and incite riots and loot businesses that had nothing to do with the original incident. Because that would just make you a douchebag.
-
I wasn't out in the field, but I did handle computer investigations. In my time at the Sheriff's Office I saw a pretty ridiculous amount of misrepresentation of the facility and the officers there in the media. They love blaming cops unquestionably whenever something goes down. Often times the misinformation ends up us being sued and losing as a result.
I don't claim to know what happened in Missouri, but I did want to at least share my experience in law enforcement.
-
Almost as if they had something to hide.
Does this surprise you in any government matters?
-
Are you a LEO? The way you talk about your experience, writing tickets, and having a supervisor telling you to make traffic stops, it sounds like you are. Have you never had a story completely misrepresented by the media? I'm an officer. I see it probably on a monthly basis here in Green Bay, if not more often. If it's that common in little ol' GB, I'm sure it's common everywhere. It's frustrating, because there are incidents involving me that are dragged through the media and turned into something that has nothing to do with what actually happened, just because it makes a good story. And after that, I'll have people mentioning that incident and telling me how corrupt the police are, not realizing that I have first-hand knowledge of what actually happened, and they don't.
Of course this doesn't mean that police never do any wrong. But the media is constantly twisting things, and people eat it up because they want to believe the police are corrupt. You really have to question what you hear about in the news. Even video evidence can be twisted, because it shows one angle at one brief moment in time. (Think about instant replay in sporting events, and how different angles on one play can tell different stories.) Eye witness accounts are not always accurate either. Witnesses have their own biases and agendas, and sometimes the human mind fills in things that the eyes don't actually see.
So yes, maybe you're Ratty and you've already made up your mind on something you don't know anything about. Maybe you hated police or you hated young Black people before this story came out, so your mind is already made up. But if you're wise, you keep an open mind, and you consider that the media might just not be giving you the full story, then you'll see that reserving judgment is best.
Whatever you do, just don't go out and incite riots and loot businesses that had nothing to do with the original incident. Because that would just make you a douchebag.
Yep. At one time I was a field agent and I can only account for my experiences in my department so I understand first hand some of the issues that come up while being out in the field and having to be in and diffuse certain situations. I have found 9 times out of 10 by just treating and more importantly talking to people like you would want to be treated you can diffuse a majority of situations even hostile ones. I am also making a point that just because you might be an authority figure that there are always bad apples in the group. Just being a cop automatically doesn't make you right! Let's not split hair's here I totally agree with you there on your other points. I am sure you probably experienced encounters like that in your department as well that put you in compromising situations.
And for the record I haven't made my mind up about anything. I just dislike more than anything the media's portrayal of the situation especially when concerning black youths and under-privileged neighborhoods. God knows that the media in the US likes to make it seem it's the majority of minorities that are doing crime everyday. At least that's my observation as a black man in America.
Nice to have intelligent convo on the thread!
-
Media sensationalism. Always gets the viewers.
As for police brutality, I believe, based on what I've heard in my country, has two sides. Sometimes, the bad cops start it and sometimes it is a reaction from the cops due to the stuff done by other people.
-
Don't want to get involved in a discussion I don't know too much about, but I'll just add something about how the media portrays demonstrations. There is this habit to Western media to portray law enforcement in demonstrations as the bad guys, who use brutal methods against peaceful demonstrators. While there are cases where this is true, people seem to get the wrong idea about demonstrations sometimes.
From my experience with demonstrations in the West Bank, those demonstrations are almost never "peaceful". When you think "demonstration" you imagine people with signs standing peacefully and protesting. Demonstrations here seem to always start violently, with teenagers blocking roads, burning tires and throwing rocks at cars. When the army or border guard intervene, they are forced to use tear gas and rubber bullets to restore the order and protect innocents. Sometimes the demonstrators would throw Molotov bottles at the law enforcement, and that is quite far from being peaceful. One needs to understand those soldiers or policemen are often risking their lives trying to contain the demonstrations, since many demonstrators really wouldn't mind hurting them. And in those cases in which demonstrators are hurt or killed, often while confronting soldiers, they are always presented as the good guys, while the soldiers or cops are bastards because they're using excessive force against "peaceful" demonstrators.
-
Is it bad that, due to both sides always getting misrepresented my media hype, opinionated allegations, and word-of-mouth retellings, I don't really give much of a shit about all this? I mean, I'm not without sympathy for those involved, but since you can't say it's the cops without the cops and their circles biting your head off, and since you can't say it's the demonstrators without the demonstrators and their supporters biting your head off, anything of this nature becomes so entangled and convoluted in moral relativism, that I don't feel like I can develop any sort of opinion on it without half the fuckin' planet telling me just how wrong and ignorant I am, regardless of how much research I've put into it.
Case and point.
-
Welcome to America. The land of extraordinarily polarized opinions, overblown political correctness, and gratuitous insulting.
This is why we can't discuss anything without riots starting. No one will listen to the other for a second without trying to shut them down.
-
Can't we all just
get alongshut the fuck up long enough to actually listen?
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.pandawhale.com%2F52252-SpiderMan--This-Is-Why-We-Cant-4pxt.jpeg&hash=e11f831ee4f5ae2548d177b178c86eb3)
-
The Autopsy is in, unarmed surrendering or fleeing teenager Micheal Brown was shot at least 6 times. Including 2 shots to the head.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=0)
Autopsy understandably causes rage in Ferguson, Governor sends in National Guard.
Human rights watch team from Amnesty International is deployed in the USA for the first time in history. Say the Police not allowing them to observe post-curfew areas indicative of the lack of transparency in this investigation.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/michael-brown-shooting-amnesty-international-sends-team-within-us-for-first-time-as-national-guard-deployed-9675149.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/michael-brown-shooting-amnesty-international-sends-team-within-us-for-first-time-as-national-guard-deployed-9675149.html)
-
Autopsy understandably causes rage in Ferguson, Governor sends in National Guard.
Understandably? Was there any doubt his death was caused by the gunfire? Are you sympathizing with the rioters?
Also, you forgot to post one of the biggest updates. Here are some photos from the surveillance footage showing Michael Brown strangling and shoving the convenience store clerk as he robbed the store, about ten minutes before the shooting.
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fassets.nydailynews.com%2Fpolopoly_fs%2F1.1904683%21%2Fimg%2FhttpImage%2Fimage.jpg_gen%2Fderivatives%2Farticle_970%2Farticle-ferguson4-0815.jpg&hash=22893520dda595a64f7395710933df62)
Why is this relevant? For three reasons: Firstly, it shows that Michael Brown had it in his character to commit violent acts. Secondly, it shows us Michael Brown's state of mind at the time of this incident, as this robbery happened just 10-15 minutes before the shooting. Thirdly, it tells us that Michael Brown knew he had just committed a violent felony and thus the police would be looking for him, and so he most likely believed that Officer Wilson's approach would likely result in him going to prison for a few years or more.
-
Understandably? Was there any doubt his death was caused by the gunfire? Are you sympathizing with the rioters?
Also, you forgot to post one of the biggest updates. Here are some photos from the surveillance footage showing Michael Brown strangling and shoving the convenience store clerk as he robbed the store, about ten minutes before the shooting.
I'm saying that withholding these details about the killing for over a week whilst indescriminately firing tear gas and rubber bullets at protestors (non violent as well as violent) and journalists alike is liable to cause a lot of rage.
Also it's not just that he was killed by a gun, it's the details of the killing, which appears to support eyewitness accounts that Brown was surrendering when he was shot execution style.
"Baden and Parcells focused on two shots in particular that correlated with witness accounts of the shooting. The first was the shot to that entered the top of Brown's head near his hairline behind the exit wound by his right eye. Parcells said he and Baden believed the shot was fired from above, down onto Brown's head, because the bullet appeared to have reentered into his right shoulder.
The other shot of note was the one in the middle of his right arm. "There was a witness statement that said [Brown] was walking away and he kind of jerks so that would have occurred when he was walking away, and then he turns around," Parcells said, demonstrating Brown's possible movements. "It's consistent with that."
Baden added that the bullets were fired from at least one or two feet away, and that there was "no evidence of a struggle." The only wounds apart from the bullet wounds were abrasions on Brown's face, attributed to him falling down after the shots to his head. "
-From the preliminary autopsy findings of Dr. Michael Baden and forensics pathologist assistant Professor Shawn Parcells.
http://www.thewire.com/national/2014/08/michael-browns-family-addresses-preliminary-autopsy-results/378686/ (http://www.thewire.com/national/2014/08/michael-browns-family-addresses-preliminary-autopsy-results/378686/)
Why is this relevant? For three reasons: Firstly, it shows that Michael Brown had it in his character to commit violent acts. Secondly, it shows us Michael Brown's state of mind at the time of this incident, as this robbery happened just 10-15 minutes before the shooting. Thirdly, it tells us that Michael Brown knew he had just committed a violent felony and thus the police would be looking for him, and so he most likely believed that Officer Wilson's approach would likely result in him going to prison for a few years or more.
Assuming that the man in the surveillance footage was Brown, which is far from proven.
And even if it is, Wilson did not know Brown was a robbery suspect at the time. And as someone so eloquently put it on twitter:
"So glad we are in the process of determining Mike Brown's guilt so this whole totally non-symbolic, context-free protest can be over with. This definitely has everything to do with that one kid's murder and nothing to do with thousands of historically similar ones. People are obviously protesting and putting their lives at risk purely because One Cop Did One Bad Thing, Once."
https://twitter.com/neilyourself (https://twitter.com/neilyourself)
-
An eyewitness has come forward with her story and video of Brown laying in the street with Cops standing by, which they confiscated with her phone. The Police chose not to release her footage even as the released Wilson's name and the alleged footage of Brown in a robbery at the same time.
According to her Wilson tried to get Brown into a car, Brown escaped and ran, Wilson gave chase, pulled his gun and shot Brown in the arm. Then repeatedly shot him when he turned around.
https://tv.yahoo.com/news/michael-brown-shooting-witness-releases-video-knew-not-143600436.html
So much for the "he tried to take the gun" story.
-
Not saying that he didn't do it but,
Is it me or does it seem you can't make out sh*t in that video footage?
-
Assuming that the man in the surveillance footage was Brown, which is far from proven.
And even if it is, Wilson did not know Brown was a robbery suspect at the time.
Dorian Johnson has already admitted he was with Brown when Brown robbed the convenience store. (http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/15/attorney-dorian-johnson-michael-brown-robbery/14118769/ (http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/15/attorney-dorian-johnson-michael-brown-robbery/14118769/)) And as I said earlier, it doesn't matter that Wilson didn't know about the robbery. Brown knew, and Brown's mindset has everything to do with this.
As for your Twitter quote, this is only about police brutality if this incident was indeed a case of brutality. We just don't know yet. My point all along has been that everyone should wait to know all the facts before passing judgment on Wilson, and even then, nobody should resort to the rioting, looting, and shooting that continue to happen ten days after the incident.
Why are you so quick to judge?
-
Not saying that he didn't do it but,
Is it me or does it seem you can't make out sh*t in that video footage?
It's fantastic footage, in my opinion. The lighting isn't the greatest, but it's better footage than 95% of the footage I see on the job. The store made the investment in high-resolution cameras. Most use the cheapest system they can find, if they have any surveillance at all.
-
It's fantastic footage, in my opinion. The lighting isn't the greatest, but it's better footage than 95% of the footage I see on the job. The store made the investment in high-resolution cameras. Most use the cheapest system they can find, if they have any surveillance at all.
Yeah, I can attest to that too. I've extracted tons of security videos, and thats pretty good. It also helps they didn't zoom out, but had it really nicely angled in at the door. A lot of places have the videos trying to get as wide an angle possible in their shop, likely to cut down on how many they need to buy.
-
Why are you so quick to judge?
It's kind of unfair for you to be asking that, since anytime anyone's posted or said anything even remotely in the defense of the rioters or against the cops, you've jumped their shit like they just personally insulted your unit or something.
Maybe it's because I'm not a cop and don't really understand that 'unit' mentality, but to me everything you've said thus far, while completely valid, comes off as more than a little biased given your position.
I'm probably being 'that guy' with this, but I'm just going by what I've seen with what experience I have to process it with.
-
Is there abuse and too harsh a response?
perhaps
however, the fuck do you expect when suddenly "peaceful" protesters start looting and rioting in the streets?
It ALWAYS happens with these "racial" incidents. and I hope I don't come off as racist, but, you NEVER hear about these kinds of things if a white civilian is shot by a black cop.
It's always in these where a white cop gets into an incident with a black guy, that the community suddenly pulls out the pitchforks and torches and are ready to burn the city down in reaction to a "lack of action" when they actually are ignorant fools who have no concept of how due process or internal affairs works in these situations, where it can take a long time before any official statement or conclusion is announced.
from what i hear, the Ferguson PD is predominantly white compared to the predominantly black neighborhood.
but shit, the hell do people want to do about it? for one, that's irrelevant when the case is simply "cop shoots unarmed person"
there's no need to turn it into a racially motivated event, and yet, these chunks of community, black community, ALWAYS try to pull the race card and turn it into "HES A RACIST, THE GUY DIN DO NUFFIN" and I'm allowed to say that, since I live in New York, where EVERY time there's an incident with a black man and police, Al Sharpton crawls out of his hole to racebait the community, and the media in general tends to gobble that shit up like turkey on thanksgiving.
I DO feel the police reacted far too harshly, but then again, given theyve seen precedents with protests for Trayvon in other states, and the general trend of how these racial protests tend to go, I'd say they probably decided it was already the worst case scenario, and the people then proved them right by rioting and looting.
gee, them police sure were overreacting!
Also, I wasn't there when they made the call to roll out the swat gear and tanks. So I can't say what their thought process was. Though perhaps instead of militarizing themselves they should have called in the national guard from the start when shit hit the fan. Not that the NG seems to be doing much better now anyway.
And I cans ay their response to breaking down media makes sense to me. They probably went about it in the entirely wrong way, but it makes sense they would try to gag the media.
Why? because as I previously stated, the media loves this shit. they don't give a damn about how the riots affect the localities or the police or the civillians. it's just the next big story that they can get massive ratings for spinning one way or another. with "LIVE CORRESPONDENCE AT THE SCENE!" They probably wanted to prevent the media from worsening the situation and only made it worse when the media instead spun it as censorship.
-
Okay, ^that I can agree with.
Still not quite at the level of caring about the end result, though. Race cards get played so damn often nowadays and are usually overblown and incorrect that I've stopped caring.
-
It's kind of unfair for you to be asking that, since anytime anyone's posted or said anything even remotely in the defense of the rioters or against the cops, you've jumped their shit like they just personally insulted your unit or something.
Maybe it's because I'm not a cop and don't really understand that 'unit' mentality, but to me everything you've said thus far, while completely valid, comes off as more than a little biased given your position.
I'm probably being 'that guy' with this, but I'm just going by what I've seen with what experience I have to process it with.
My point all along has been A) it's too soon to determine what happened, and B) rioting and looting are deplorable reactions, no matter what actually happened to "incite" them. I don't believe there is a valid defense for the rioters. I think it's a big stretch to say I've jumped everyone's shit, but maybe that's just my perspective. The meanest things I've said in this thread are that Ratty's opinion is uninformed, and that the rioters/looters are douchebags, and I stand by both statements.
And I am absolutely biased. We all are. Everybody has bias, and I've never pretended to be neutral. But I've made it clear from the start that I don't know what actually happened between Brown and Wilson. I think it's an entirely reasonable and understandable request that we wait until more information comes out before crucifying Wilson. I'm not sure how I turned into the bad guy here, but everyone has a different perspective.
-
It's kind of unfair for you to be asking that, since anytime anyone's posted or said anything even remotely in the defense of the rioters or against the cops, you've jumped their shit like they just personally insulted your unit or something.
PFG9000 hasn't jumped anyone's shit. He stated some really good questions, and proposed people don't jump to any conclusions before all the information is in and able to be looked at.
Hell, he didn't even call anyone names, or caplocks warrior anywhere. If anything you're jumping his shit throwing out presumptions like him having 'unit mentality' or claiming he feels personally attacked.
-
B) rioting and looting are deplorable reactions, no matter what actually happened to "incite" them. I don't believe there is a valid defense for the rioters. I think it's a big stretch to say I've jumped everyone's shit, but maybe that's just my perspective. The meanest things I've said in this thread are that Ratty's opinion is uninformed, and that the rioters/looters are douchebags, and I stand by both statements.
^ this.
The results of Brown's autopsy show that the policeman has used excessive force against him, and may support that he shot him while he was on his knees. I think this case is quite clearly one of police brutality, even if the shot teenager was a criminal.
Keeping this in mind, no "public rage" can justify looting, vandalism and attacking law enforcement. Before the whole Gaza mess started in my country, around a month and a half ago, an Arab teen was kidnapped and murdered by Jews in Jerusalem. This has happened around two weeks after Hamas activists had kidnapped and killed three Jewish teenagers. The murderers claimed they did what they did as an act of vengeance. None of the murders could be justified, but the waves of violent Arab riots spawned in Jerusalem and other parts of Israel as a "response" to the murder of the teen cannot be justified either.
"Public rage" is bullshit. By that logic, any crime or act of cruelty could be justified because you're angry. It's not a war, it's not a rebellion against dictatorship of some kind, get your asses back home and let the law do what it has to do.
-
This is about more than just Brown and Wilson.
Over a week later and cops are still escalating violence. Still shooting tear gas at and assaulting reporters. It's a damn shame.
-
A view from the other side:
http://uniformstories.com/stories/police/dear-america-answer-this-one-question-about-the-ferguson-shooting?fb_action_ids=10100175742134997&fb_action_types=og.likes (http://uniformstories.com/stories/police/dear-america-answer-this-one-question-about-the-ferguson-shooting?fb_action_ids=10100175742134997&fb_action_types=og.likes)
-
PFG9000 hasn't jumped anyone's shit. He stated some really good questions, and proposed people don't jump to any conclusions before all the information is in and able to be looked at.
Hell, he didn't even call anyone names, or caplocks warrior anywhere. If anything you're jumping his shit throwing out presumptions like him having 'unit mentality' or claiming he feels personally attacked.
Internet =/= tone, my bad.
And I even said I was probably in the wrong on that one.
-
The "Rampant Police Brutality and Media censorship" continues:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58304981-78/police-taylor-lake-salt.html.csp (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58304981-78/police-taylor-lake-salt.html.csp)
http://www.conservativerefocus.com/blog5.php/2014/08/24/utah-police-shooting-black-cop-killing-of-unarmed-white-remains-unnoticed-by-doj-and-media (http://www.conservativerefocus.com/blog5.php/2014/08/24/utah-police-shooting-black-cop-killing-of-unarmed-white-remains-unnoticed-by-doj-and-media)
Only this time, a Black police officer caught the bug, and an unarmed white kids is the, er, "victim." I keep waiting for the media outcry, but I guess the corrupt local police force is censoring them again. :rollseyes:
-
The "Rampant Police Brutality and Media censorship" continues:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58304981-78/police-taylor-lake-salt.html.csp (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58304981-78/police-taylor-lake-salt.html.csp)
http://www.conservativerefocus.com/blog5.php/2014/08/24/utah-police-shooting-black-cop-killing-of-unarmed-white-remains-unnoticed-by-doj-and-media (http://www.conservativerefocus.com/blog5.php/2014/08/24/utah-police-shooting-black-cop-killing-of-unarmed-white-remains-unnoticed-by-doj-and-media)
Only this time, a Black police officer caught the bug, and an unarmed white kids is the, er, "victim." I keep waiting for the media outcry, but I guess the corrupt local police force is censoring them again. :rollseyes:
There has been a lot of police brutality against the media and protestors. I've just been too busy to update you on all the specifics. But here, let me scratch the surface for you.
Ferguson PD Officer Ray Albers who was fired after pointing his gun at protestors and media who were walking by and shouting "I'M GONNA FUCKING KILL YOU"
Ferguson, Missouri (POLICE) I'm Going To KILL YOU ! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YknrZE0CCYE#)
And then consider for a moment all the images we've seen of gas masked officers pointing guns at unarmed civilians with their hands in the air over the past week. It looks for all the world like Albers was just unfortunate in that he forgot to remove his identification and wear a mask like the earlier ones had done.
Then there's the donation campaigns that have raised well over $200,000 for Wilson, which it later came to light is run by members of the Ferguson PD (sure hope we weren't counting on any of them to be impartial to his investigation) and many of the donators doing it just to congratulate him with messages like this.
(https://33.media.tumblr.com/5c068790a81559bbfe69a74a08ef6093/tumblr_nanzdk00PO1tjkqeio3_1280.png)
(Since this post it's raised another $100,000)
(https://31.media.tumblr.com/cf2bc7a1dede8cba20c0d314624c0d38/tumblr_nanzdk00PO1tjkqeio2_1280.png)
Most of that money is going to go right into Wilson's pocket, because he probably won't need it for attorneys as
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119157/darren-wilsons-conviction-will-be-basically-impossible (http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119157/darren-wilsons-conviction-will-be-basically-impossible)
If I were Wilson, and I were only protecting myself in this shooting as Wilson says he was, then I'd seriously consider giving this money to charity, because I'd sure feel filthy spending it.
Also a young woman was shot in the head purportedly by Police Officers, they took the bullet out as "evidence" and now apparently, mysteriously, have no record of her case http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/Another_Shooting_In_Ferguson (http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/Another_Shooting_In_Ferguson)
Also also - The image of the apparently very toxic, confrontational culture of St. Louis Police just keeps getting fuller- and more disturbing.
" "I personally believe in Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, but I'm also a killer," said officer Dan Page, a 35-year veteran, in the video. "I've killed a lot. And if I need to, I'll kill a whole bunch more. If you don't want to get killed, don't show up in front of me. I have no problems with it. God did not raise me to be a coward." Page added, "I'm into diversity - I kill everybody. I don't care." "
http://news.yahoo.com/suspended-st-louis-police-officer-im-diversity-kill-130100473.html (http://news.yahoo.com/suspended-st-louis-police-officer-im-diversity-kill-130100473.html)
As for the idea that this is all "liberal media bias" here's how the "liberal" New York Times handled this.
How the NYT spoke of Micheal Brown vs. how they wrote about Timothy McVeigh.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bv5VDHlIMAAb7NL.png:large)
tl;dr
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bv49Q5GCAAEVZ2Y.jpg:large)
The killing of a black man 15 feet away from Cops elsewhere in St. Louis (which was caught on video) hasn't caught media attention either. Because these deaths didn't start brutal police crackdowns on peaceful and non-peaceful protestors alike.
Oh and there's also a separate fundraiser for Wilson being run by the KKK.
-
None of what you've posted equates to "rampant police brutality." Ray Albers said some stupid, completely inappropriate things, and he's been suspended appropriately for them. (Not fired, as far as I can tell.) But that's not rampant police brutality. A fundraiser does not amount to rampant police brutality, even if the KKK is involved in their own fundraiser (which they deny). Dan Page's comments about his military career are disturbing, but were not made in reference to his law enforcement career. He's been suspended for his comments. This certainly does not indicate rampant police brutality.
I'm not about to defend Ray Albers. He shouldn't have said the stupid things he said. But do you expect police to be perfect 100% of the time? There are hundreds of officers assigned to the protests in Ferguson. Isn't it completely natural and even expected that some of the actions of some of those cops might not be appropriate? Did you mention that Albers had urine thrown on him by the supposedly peaceful protesters the day before this video was taken? Did you mention that Albers was looking for a gunman in the supposedly peaceful crowd when this video was taken? Did you know that Albers was working an overtime shift at the protests after he had completed his full work shift that day (somewhere between 8-12 hrs.), so he was just as strung out as the rest of the cops working down there? None of this justifies his actions, but you can't expect perfection when you've got normal humans with human weaknesses working long hours under extraordinarily stressful conditions.
And what's the kid with the videophone doing there in the first place? Is he really there to protest peacefully and lawfully, or is he violating the curfew and looking for strung out cops to annoy in order to be the next 15-minute youtube sensation?
I'm going up to the lake for a few days now. Work, politics, and drama is going to be the last thing on my mind. :)
-
None of what you've posted equates to "rampant police brutality."
Pretty sure the girl who was shot in the head by police who "can't find" evidence of her case/the bullet qualifies. And the man with the knife who was 15 or so feet away when the cops shot him to death, though that was in another part of St. Louis. I also didn't mention things like the multiple times Police have shot tear gas into the press area. And accusations that they started firing tear gas as much as 3 hours before the curfew at peaceful protestors. Again I'm rather distracted this past week (moving) so there's a lot I haven't specifically brought up. But it's easy to find if you look yourself.
Ray Albers said some stupid, completely inappropriate things, and he's been suspended appropriately for them. (Not fired, as far as I can tell.) But that's not rampant police brutality. A fundraiser does not amount to rampant police brutality, even if the KKK is involved in their own fundraiser (which they deny). Dan Page's comments about his military career are disturbing, but were not made in reference to his law enforcement career. He's been suspended for his comments. This certainly does not indicate rampant police brutality.
I find it more disturbing that he was pointing a gun at people peacefully walking by than what he said. Alberts and Page would have been some of the guys who mentored Wilson when he was a rookie. This demonstrates what is apparently a culture of antagonism, fear and killing in the Ferguson PD.
I'm not about to defend Ray Albers. He shouldn't have said the stupid things he said. But do you expect police to be perfect 100% of the time? There are hundreds of officers assigned to the protests in Ferguson. Isn't it completely natural and even expected that some of the actions of some of those cops might not be appropriate? Did you mention that Albers had urine thrown on him by the supposedly peaceful protesters the day before this video was taken? Did you mention that Albers was looking for a gunman in the supposedly peaceful crowd when this video was taken? Did you know that Albers was working an overtime shift at the protests after he had completed his full work shift that day (somewhere between 8-12 hrs.), so he was just as strung out as the rest of the cops working down there? None of this justifies his actions, but you can't expect perfection when you've got normal humans with human weaknesses working long hours under extraordinarily stressful conditions.
If we hadn't seen cops from the very beginning training their guns on civilians with their hands up I might agree with you. The training on how to use these military guns they've got (as multiple people in the military have pointed out, you DON'T point those guns at someone unless you're ready to shoot, doing otherwise will just escalate the situation) and how to deal with both civilians and the press is very poor. And very confrontational and combative towards the people they are supposed to be serving and protecting.
And what's the kid with the videophone doing there in the first place? Is he really there to protest peacefully and lawfully, or is he violating the curfew and looking for strung out cops to annoy in order to be the next 15-minute youtube sensation?
I'm going up to the lake for a few days now. Work, politics, and drama is going to be the last thing on my mind. :)
Being young and stupid doesn't automatically mean you should have someone pointing a gun at you. I'm in the middle of moving myself. Why I haven't posted much and might be gone for a few weeks.
PS- I had heard Albers was permanently suspended but could be wrong. There is some question as to whether the KKK chapter raising money for Wilson is a "legitimate" part of the KKK, a new independent group or just an opportunist hoping to grab the money and run.
-
I'll just leave this here.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/08/armed-police (http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/08/armed-police)
-
Add to that a hyper-militarised police culture and a deep history of racial strife and you have the reason why so many civilians are shot by police officers. Unless America can either reduce its colossal gun ownership rates or fix its deep social problems, shootings of civilians by police—justified or not—seem sure to continue.
After reading that website report this is what stood out for me the most.
-
I'm bumping this now that this story has evolved into part 2. A grand jury looked at all the known evidence and concluded that there was no probable cause to charge Officer Wilson. The grand jury news was accompanied with a release of tons of evidence that further indicated that this was yet another example of the media circus manufacturing a story. The witnesses who claimed Officer Wilson gunned down Michael Brown in cold blood contradicted themselves and other witnesses. Michael Brown was shot at close range and was not shot in the back. Michael Brown had marijuana in his system. Michael Brown was indeed attacking Officer Wilson in his car. Officer Wilson did in fact know that Michael Brown was a robbery suspect, and Michael Brown did indeed use force to rob a convenience store just before the shooting. These two facts alone should throw the whole "racial profiling" argument out the window.
And yet, the rioters continue to riot. The brainwashed left-wing extremists continue to dream up conspiracy theories. Al Sharpton and Co. continue to demonize a good cop doing his job, and call for changes to Law Enforcement.
So what are the thoughts of those of you who also judged Officer Wilson before knowing all the facts? I don't expect an apology. Heck, I don't even expect you've changed your minds in the face of all the new facts. But I'd be interested to hear your thoughts anyway.
-
It is unfortunate that lately in many places mobs take control of the streets. Seems like it has always been like that... A large group of people lead by a good leader is a great force. However, if the mob has no leader or is lead by demagogues, it turns into an evil force of destruction. The mob will not listen to reason. It is angry because it feels injustice, and it makes no difference whether the injustice is real or imaginary. Eventually, the power of the mob could commit ever greater injustices in the name of vengeance and sacred rage.
Revolutions that get out of hand are supported by the mob. The mob would often choose the most extreme and the biggest demagogue to be its leader, rather than the talented and moderate one. And when no one controls the mobs, the streets would deteriorate to anarchy.
-
What about the guy stupid ass cop who choked Eric Garner to death? Let's hear the defense on that shit.
-
I'll go into the Eric Garner video later if you want. Or start up your own thread on it. But this topic is about Ferguson.