Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [ID] Topic: Cornell Is Not The Only One From His Timeline In Judgment  (Read 8722 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline theplottwist

  • Canon Literalist
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1854
  • プロットツイスト君
  • Awards 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place 2017-07-Sprite Contest 2nd PLace 2016-09-Sprite Contest First Place 2015 - Christmas Award First Place 2015 - Halloween Sprite Contest - Second Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania Adventure Rebirth (Wii)
  • Likes:
Cornell Is Not The Only One From His Timeline In Judgment
« on: April 05, 2016, 07:30:46 PM »
0
So, while writting my Castlevania Split Timeline hypothesis and figuring out what game would branch from what event, I realized that Cornell is not the only one in Judgment to come from an alternate timeline: Death and Carmilla also are, and they come from the same one as his.

This is simple enough to explain: Death and Carmilla know Cornell from his "Blue Crescent Moon" moniker, and nor Cornell or his moniker are a thing in IGA's timeline.

One could argue Death is omniscient, but this is simply not true, as I have demonstrated here.

Carmilla has no excuse: Either she came from Cornell's timeline, or there is no way for her to know who he is.

Finally, one could say that Cornell exists in IGA's timeline, but is simply not mentioned, and that's how Death and Carmilla know him. This could be true, however Cornell, while talking to Death, says this:

"Ask as often as you will... but I will never serve Dracula."

This implies that Death has tried to recruit Cornell before, and we have notice of NO SUCH THING in IGA's timeline. Again, this could be shalked up to "offscreen recruitment" but, more importantly, I raise you what Death says if he defeats Cornell:

"With this, the Master's next reincarnation is assured."

Where do we see Death try this scheme? Yes, in LoD. He takes Cornell's wolf soul and uses it to ensure Dracula's revival. The most important part here, however, is not the plan itself, but where it comes from: In LoD, Death reveals that this scheme was DRACULA's idea, not his. Therefore, him using Cornell's soul to "assure Master's next reincarnation" is a command issued by LoD-timeline Dracula. Also, notice how he says "reincarnation" and not "revival" or "resurrection" -- he's talking about Malus.

Now, the next logical question would be "But Death knows Alucard from IGA's timeline!". Indeed he does -- this is why I'm working on a split timeline. I believe Judgment's Death comes from Cornell's timeline AFTER it split from a point in the main timeline. This means that Alucard indeed exist in LoD's timeline, and whatever was the reason for the split, it was after SotN.

While I can't point Carmilla, I'd say Death comes from just before LoD, or even from the time between LoD and CV64.

EDIT: No. He certainly comes from before LoD's ending, but after Dracula planned to use his soul to reincarnate. He already knows Cornell, yet he doesn't possess his soul yet, as evidenced by the line he speaks in Judgment that I posted above. If he came from after this, Dracula's reincarnation would already be assured, no matter if time-rift Cornell dies or not.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 06:01:31 PM by theplottwist »
Director of that one 1999 fangame that is not out yet.

Offline Jorge D. Fuentes

  • Boogeymen check under their beds for Julius Belmont.
  • Administrator
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 15258
  • Gender: Male
  • It will always be Brinstar, dammit!
  • Awards A great musician and composer of various melodies both original and game-based. The Artist: Designs copious amounts of assorted artwork. 2015-03-3D Art Contest GOLD Award SuperOld Dungeonite: Members who have been around since the oldOLD days. ICVD Denizen: Those that dwell in the corrupted, mirror image of The Dungeon.
    • Jorge's DeviantArt Page
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: Cornell Is Not The Only One From His Timeline In Judgment
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2016, 07:38:32 PM »
0
I have a HUGE Flowchart with at least five different timelines.
It'd be great if we could go over it because I'm not the master of all of the dates and dialog.
You must obey Da Rulez!
Jorge's Kickass VG Radio Station Open it in Winamp/MPClassic (broadband connection preferred)
Jorge's Kickass Youtube CV Music Channel
My Personal Minecraft Server (send me your In-Game Name so that I may Whitelist you)

Offline KaZudra

  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2554
  • Gender: Male
  • Awards 2016-04-Story Contest - 2nd Place Master Debater: Gracefully argues 'til the cows come home about topics.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania Bloodlines (Genesis)
  • Likes:
Re: Cornell Is Not The Only One From His Timeline In Judgment
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2016, 08:29:23 PM »
0
Judgement condenses all the timelines in a Pool, possibly creating many paradoxes in result.
Just imagine a Judgement 2, which could have Gabriel, Prime Taradox

"I ain't gonna let it get to me I'm just gonna let it get to me" -Knuckles

Offline zangetsu468

  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3131
  • God bless the hustler, curse the first sleeper
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia (NDS)
  • Likes:
Re: Cornell Is Not The Only One From His Timeline In Judgment
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2016, 08:31:27 PM »
0
The fact that Death knows Alucard (Iga) and Cornell (non-Iga) doesn't necessarily mean he knew Alucard at a certain time though?

The script between Death and Cornell seems to indicate LOD has not happened yet in the non-Iga Timeline at the point (in between timelines) when Judgement occurs. If that same Death knows Alucard it could be that he's addressing him as he would address the Alucard from Legends or that the Non-Iga timeline split itself off from the Iga timeline after Alucard was born but prior to Legends splitting into its own timeline, which then leads into LOD.

If Death recognises Alucard as SOTN Alucard but LOD has not happened yet then something must have caused the timeline to split around/ after SOTN's events. In my eyes this would be the bad ending of SOTN where Alucard kills Richter and the whip is passed to the Schneider family. It would be an alternate sequence of events unfolding and judgement must occur at the junction in time after that split, should this be the case.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline theplottwist

  • Canon Literalist
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1854
  • プロットツイスト君
  • Awards 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place 2017-07-Sprite Contest 2nd PLace 2016-09-Sprite Contest First Place 2015 - Christmas Award First Place 2015 - Halloween Sprite Contest - Second Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania Adventure Rebirth (Wii)
  • Likes:
Re: Cornell Is Not The Only One From His Timeline In Judgment
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2016, 08:34:16 PM »
0
The fact that Death knows Alucard (Iga) and Cornell (non-Iga) doesn't necessarily mean he knew Alucard at a certain time though?

The script between Death and Cornell seems to indicate LOD has not happened yet in the non-Iga Timeline at the point (in between timelines) when Judgement occurs. If that same Death knows Alucard it could be that he's addressing him as he would address the Alucard from Legends or that the Non-Iga timeline split itself off from the Iga timeline after Alucard was born but prior to Legends splitting into its own timeline, which then leads into LOD.

If Death recognises Alucard as SOTN Alucard but LOD has not happened yet then something must have caused the timeline to split around/ after SOTN's events. In my eyes this would be the bad ending of SOTN where Alucard kills Richter and the whip is passed to the Schneider family. It would be an alternate sequence of events unfolding and judgement must occur at the junction in time after that split, should this be the case.

Edited my post to answer that before you posted :P
Director of that one 1999 fangame that is not out yet.

Offline zangetsu468

  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3131
  • God bless the hustler, curse the first sleeper
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia (NDS)
  • Likes:
Re: Cornell Is Not The Only One From His Timeline In Judgment
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2016, 10:51:14 PM »
0
Edited my post to answer that before you posted :P

Touché  :)

I also had incorporated this into my timeline/ signature some time ago. i.e. SOTN's Bad Ending flows directly into LOD. (As does RoB's)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline Nagumo

  • Midnight Memory
  • Global Moderator
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3119
  • Gender: Female
  • Awards Town Crier: Updates the forum with many news items, often not even Castlevania. Capable of resolving arguments/fights peacefully without mod/admin intervention. The Unfazed: Never loses his/her calm, even in the most heated arguments. Master Debater: Gracefully argues 'til the cows come home about topics.
    • Awards
  • Likes:
Re: Cornell Is Not The Only One From His Timeline In Judgment
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2016, 08:09:14 AM »
0
Judgment appears to take some liberties with the translation a lot of times (moreso than usual anyway), so I would like to double check the dialogue for implied familiarity between Cornell and other characters. I'm actually not a big fan of split timelines (in Castlevania in at least), so I'm going stick to the interpretation that Cornell is from a completely different world for now.

Offline theplottwist

  • Canon Literalist
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1854
  • プロットツイスト君
  • Awards 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place 2017-07-Sprite Contest 2nd PLace 2016-09-Sprite Contest First Place 2015 - Christmas Award First Place 2015 - Halloween Sprite Contest - Second Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania Adventure Rebirth (Wii)
  • Likes:
Re: Cornell Is Not The Only One From His Timeline In Judgment
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2016, 05:24:00 PM »
0
Judgment appears to take some liberties with the translation a lot of times (moreso than usual anyway), so I would like to double check the dialogue for implied familiarity between Cornell and other characters. I'm actually not a big fan of split timelines (in Castlevania in at least), so I'm going stick to the interpretation that Cornell is from a completely different world for now.

If you find something, I'd appreciate it very much.

However, this time, I'm confident there isn't TOO MUCH change from the japanese script, because Cornell's issue with Death is actually a plot-point in his Judgment campaign.
Director of that one 1999 fangame that is not out yet.

Offline Nagumo

  • Midnight Memory
  • Global Moderator
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3119
  • Gender: Female
  • Awards Town Crier: Updates the forum with many news items, often not even Castlevania. Capable of resolving arguments/fights peacefully without mod/admin intervention. The Unfazed: Never loses his/her calm, even in the most heated arguments. Master Debater: Gracefully argues 'til the cows come home about topics.
    • Awards
  • Likes:
Re: Cornell Is Not The Only One From His Timeline In Judgment
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2016, 08:56:15 AM »
0
So I found the dialogue. Carmilla says: "見つかたわ 蒼き三日月" (I found you, Blue Cresent Moon) And then Cornell says: 
"バンパイア また 俺に仲間になれというのか" I could be wrong, but this is my interpretation: "Vampire, (do you wish/are you asking) me to join you, as well?" I typed the text actually how it appeared on screen, and I'm not sure why there is a gap between "また" and the rest of the sentence. I think it's there so the reader doesn't get confused, but I'm not exactly sure why. So maybe this case needs a second opinion from Shiroi. 

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm5917835 (19:55)

I think the "as well" refers to Cornell being asked to join before, but by someone else, most likely Death. I personally think Cornell doesn't get asked to join Dracula until he is in the Time Rift, since there is no evidence in Legacy of Darkness that someone on Dracula's side tried to recruit him, but I admit it's hard to determine that either way.

Offline theplottwist

  • Canon Literalist
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1854
  • プロットツイスト君
  • Awards 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place 2017-07-Sprite Contest 2nd PLace 2016-09-Sprite Contest First Place 2015 - Christmas Award First Place 2015 - Halloween Sprite Contest - Second Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania Adventure Rebirth (Wii)
  • Likes:
Re: Cornell Is Not The Only One From His Timeline In Judgment
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2016, 12:50:42 PM »
0
So I found the dialogue. Carmilla says: "見つかたわ 蒼き三日月" (I found you, Blue Cresent Moon) And then Cornell says: 
"バンパイア また 俺に仲間になれというのか" I could be wrong, but this is my interpretation: "Vampire, (do you wish/are you asking) me to join you, as well?" I typed the text actually how it appeared on screen, and I'm not sure why there is a gap between "また" and the rest of the sentence. I think it's there so the reader doesn't get confused, but I'm not exactly sure why. So maybe this case needs a second opinion from Shiroi. 

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm5917835 (19:55)

I think the "as well" refers to Cornell being asked to join before, but by someone else, most likely Death. I personally think Cornell doesn't get asked to join Dracula until he is in the Time Rift, since there is no evidence in Legacy of Darkness that someone on Dracula's side tried to recruit him, but I admit it's hard to determine that either way.

Thank you Nagumo. If you find Cornell's story mode, please post it.

At a certain point I considered that Cornell might get asked to join Dracula inside the rift, before meeting Carmilla. Thing is: Death only comes after Carmilla, not before, in Cornell's campaign. Who else would ask Cornell to join Dracula before Carmilla? There are no other characters in the rift on Dracula's side beyond Carmilla and Death.

You said there is no evidence in LoD about Cornell getting asked to join Dracula. Well, I believe Ortega could be evidence for this happening at some point. Ortega knows about Dracula (Cornell also does in LoD) and sold Ada and the village in return for his powers.

In Cornell's world, he's different. Cornell is a man-beast that won't kill humans. As shown in LoD, he's taking care of Ada to atone for the killing of her parents committed by fellow man-beasts.

Considering there are evil werewolves in his world, I find it plausible they would question why would Cornell refuse to be evil or consume humans. So, by "joining their side" he could meaning "the side of evil/darkness", a side which vampires and evil man-beasts belong together, and not exactly "the side of Dracula." Though, Dracula being the Lord of Darkness, the side of evil is pretty much his lol
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 12:53:07 PM by theplottwist »
Director of that one 1999 fangame that is not out yet.

Offline zangetsu468

  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3131
  • God bless the hustler, curse the first sleeper
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia (NDS)
  • Likes:
Re: Cornell Is Not The Only One From His Timeline In Judgment
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2016, 05:09:07 PM »
0
Dammit plottwist... You beat me to Ortega.

This is much like SFII the Animated Movie where Bison(Vega in Japan) wanted Ryu but had to recruit Ken knowing Ryu would come looking for him. All along Dracula wanted Cornell's wolf form, and this wouldn't be the first time Death would ask someone to side with Dracula I.e. Alucard in SOTN before he's stripped of his gear.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline Shiroi Koumori

  • Guardian of the Night
  • Global Moderator
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 4670
  • Gender: Female
  • Birth, Death and Rebirth... Everything is a cycle.
  • Awards 2018-06 Sprite Contest Runner-Up 2015-04- Sprite Contest Silver Permanent Resident: Seems to always be around to post/reply. The Unfazed: Never loses his/her calm, even in the most heated arguments.
    • My DeviantArt Page
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (PS1/SS)
  • Likes:
Re: Cornell Is Not The Only One From His Timeline In Judgment
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2016, 10:31:35 PM »
0
So I found the dialogue. Carmilla says: "見つかたわ 蒼き三日月" (I found you, Blue Cresent Moon) And then Cornell says: 
"バンパイア また 俺に仲間になれというのか" I could be wrong, but this is my interpretation: "Vampire, (do you wish/are you asking) me to join you, as well?" I typed the text actually how it appeared on screen, and I'm not sure why there is a gap between "また" and the rest of the sentence. I think it's there so the reader doesn't get confused, but I'm not exactly sure why. So maybe this case needs a second opinion from Shiroi.

I think the space bar between the words are just place holders for commas.

Offline zangetsu468

  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3131
  • God bless the hustler, curse the first sleeper
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia (NDS)
  • Likes:
Re: Cornell Is Not The Only One From His Timeline In Judgment
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2016, 12:50:39 AM »
0
In Cornell's world, he's different. Cornell is a man-beast that won't kill humans. As shown in LoD, he's taking care of Ada to atone for the killing of her parents committed by fellow man-beasts.

Isn't Cornell also special for being able to completely suppress his Lycan form keeping his human and Lycan sides separate, whereas with Ortega you can clearly see that his Lycan features permeate through his humanity.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline Nagumo

  • Midnight Memory
  • Global Moderator
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3119
  • Gender: Female
  • Awards Town Crier: Updates the forum with many news items, often not even Castlevania. Capable of resolving arguments/fights peacefully without mod/admin intervention. The Unfazed: Never loses his/her calm, even in the most heated arguments. Master Debater: Gracefully argues 'til the cows come home about topics.
    • Awards
  • Likes:
Re: Cornell Is Not The Only One From His Timeline In Judgment
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2016, 03:41:58 PM »
0
I checked dialogue from Cornell's and Death's campaign, and the implied familiarity is actually stronger in the Japanese version. Woops. On top of that, Dracula's pre-battle quote to Cornell is "Fascinating. It's all coming back to me now" (which matches the Japanese version). Cornell clearly has a connection with these other characters, so the most logical and least complicated interpretation is that he is from the same world as them. So I was definitely wrong about Cornell being from another world.

Anyway, I'm going to change my interpretation to something else. I think what plottwist already suggested, that Judgment only brought Cornell into the IGA canon, and that the N64 games are still gaiden. I don't they can work as an alternative timeline of events. Interestingly, that would fit with IGA's statement about him wanting to go back and "tweak" old storylines. Maybe we would have gotten a Cornell game eventually?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 03:44:53 PM by Nagumo »

Offline theplottwist

  • Canon Literalist
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1854
  • プロットツイスト君
  • Awards 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place 2017-07-Sprite Contest 2nd PLace 2016-09-Sprite Contest First Place 2015 - Christmas Award First Place 2015 - Halloween Sprite Contest - Second Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania Adventure Rebirth (Wii)
  • Likes:
Re: Cornell Is Not The Only One From His Timeline In Judgment
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2016, 04:13:13 PM »
0
Quote
I checked dialogue from Cornell's and Death's campaign, and the implied familiarity is actually stronger in the Japanese version. Woops

That was... Unexpected.

Dracula's pre-battle quote to Cornell is "Fascinating. It's all coming back to me now"

OK hold on: This Dracula line is generic, VS. mode only, because as far as I know, Dracula never faces Cornell in the story mode (the "canon" course of events). Whenever he has no line, he uses this one. Dracula's specific line against Cornell is actually shared with Golem: "You dare challenge me? How utterly ridiculous."

That's why I only consider what they say on the story mode cutscene battles.

Quote
(which matches the Japanese version). Cornell clearly has a connection with these other characters, so the most logical and least complicated interpretation is that he is from the same world as them. So I was definitely wrong about Cornell being from another world.

I don't think you're wrong in this regard. IGA has already confirmed this to you personally.

The issue with Cornell being from the same world as IGA's canon is that it would mean Legacy of Darkness taking place. And, not only has IGA already confirmed that Legacy of Darkness is not canon, but Judgment's intro text and ending confirm that Cornell comes from Legacy of Darkness.

So, either Death comes from Legacy, or we have a contradiction.

Quote
Anyway, I'm going to change my interpretation to something else. I think what plottwist already suggested, that Judgment only brought Cornell into the IGA canon, and that the N64 games are still gaiden. I don't they can work as an alternative timeline of events. Interestingly, that would fit with IGA's statement about him wanting to go back and "tweak" old storylines. Maybe we would have gotten a Cornell game eventually?

I wonder what is your gripe against a split timeline :P

IGA has gone on record saying that these games belong in a "separate world with the same worldview." The developers of these games have built them with the base lore in mind (Reinhardt descends from the Belmonts, for instance). A split timeline would explain this not only from the story/headcanon perspective, but also from the dev perspective too -- the devs simply choosing to go their own way from a certain point in the franchise.

But, of course, to each his own.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 04:19:50 PM by theplottwist »
Director of that one 1999 fangame that is not out yet.

Tags:
 

anything