Topic: The first sign rises with the full moon.

[Neobelmont]

If there's one thing I learned from this it's that voices can be heard when push comes to shove and to never underestimate the will to see something come true. Also I knew IGA would win that arm wrestle and of course KAPPA!

[Belmontoya]

Well, you know IGA hates death pits with no logic behind them, so death pits with spikes are more logical for the clock tower.

Pits or holes that are deep enough to cause a fatal fall are just as logical a trap as a pit with spikes at the bottom. He makes good games but Iga's not always right about everything.

[CastleToastM]

Pits or holes that are deep enough to cause a fatal fall are just as logical a trap as a pit with spikes at the bottom. He makes good games but Iga's not always right about everything.

Aren't the main characters immune to fall damage in IGAvanias, though?

[DragonSlayr81]

Aren't the main characters immune to fall damage in IGAvanias, though?

They are, and it's better that way. You don't have to worry about hurting yourself while jumping from high places. While LoS introduced it, I still hate the idea of Dracula and Alucard suffering from fall damage. It just makes them feel less badass. An unholdy Dark Lord and creature of the night shouldn't get a sprain if he falls from a few stories. What IGAvanias(hell, Metroidvanias, as Metroid does this too) is add more penalizing trap floors. Stuff like lava and spikes that hurt you.

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

What IGAvanias(hell, Metroidvanias, as Metroid does this too) is add more penalizing trap floors. Stuff like lava and spikes that hurt you.

And thats how I like it, f&*k jump damage, I hated it in Legacy of Darkness (I felt Cornell should have been immune to this given he was a werewolf) and hated it even more in LOS for reasons DragonSlayr already listed above.

We can have pit falls that hurt you really bad though such as lava, spikes, acid etc to punish you for a bad jump/platforming, I'm sure such a compromise could potentially please some of the more old school hardcore CV fans out there.

IGA did this to a degree in his previous metroidvanias, but I would not mind him adding more elaborate platforming and hazard pits akin to the original castlevanias by having it as a pit that hurts you but allows you to escape by jumping back onto the nearest platform to rethink your strategy, the damage dealt should be considerable as well.

[Maedhros]

Instant death pits are completely ancient design. While good for pure platformers, it makes 0 sense in exploration type games.

SM did it right, with many type of harzards on the floor.

[Claimh Solais]

Instant death pits are completely ancient design. While good for pure platformers, it makes 0 sense in exploration type games.

This is exactly why Vampire Killer is so tough to play. Also, that Leon's Quest fan-game had this problem, too. Having an endless pit that kills you instantly in a game where you have downward paths is terrible design.

[piscesdreams]

I am glad to see the Kickstarter goals were completely smashed. I am looking forward to this, as it is going to be this type of game on consoles. I would have always preferred the GBA/DS games on a console, I would have enjoyed them more than I already did.

That said, what I am most interested in seeing is how Iga crafts a classicvania style game. Sure he had a hand in porting Chronicles and remaking Dracula X Chronicles, but those games were already established. I am not sure how big of a hand he had in Adventure Rebirth, but that was the best of the classicvania games since SCIV imo. Hopefully the six levels will be as long or longer than the AR levels.

But that begs a question, will the levels be mixtures of areas from the standard game, will it be 6 chosen areas or will the game only have 6 total areas?

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

But that begs a question, will the levels be mixtures of areas from the standard game, will it be 6 chosen areas or will the game only have 6 total areas?

The designers themselves probably aren't sure yet, but I doubt the last one is true given that it's IGA's "largest castle," and over 6 areas was typical in his CVs.

[shelverton.]

Well, even if the normal game has, say, 12 areas, and the classic mode has 6, it's possible that each of those 6 levels can combine 2 of the areas from the main game.

Like, the first level could be an entrance type level that leads into an underground basement area where the first boss is. And level 2 could start off in a cave under the castle and then lead up into a garden, all in the same level. I wouldn't worry about it, but I think it's safe to say that classic mode will feature assets and areas from the main game, but remade and remixed.

[Maedhros]

Hell, they could even copy the level design from the CV games, paste the Bloodstained assets over it and most people wouldn't notice.

[RichterB]

I actually think that the old-fashioned "death pits" bring a lot of strategic risk-and-reward to a platformer. I know IGA said he isn't a fan, but I like them a great deal for the tension they add in concert with enemy and obstacle placement. I do believe the "fall damage" in the N64 games made sense, where we had 3D depth/dimensionality. It was a fitting substitute for areas where "death pits" had no logic. This element was largely implemented in tower-type levels; those are falls from tremendous heights, and aside from Cornell, the playable characters are all human. Even with Cornell, he's not immortal (and isn't always in man-beast form).

All of that said, for a "Classicvania" or "Metroidvania"-type game, "fall damage" doesn't bring anything positive to the design that I can tell. Partially because of precedent and partially because of lack of vertical depth, it's essentially unnecessary in the realm of 2D. Likewise, as much as I love "death pits" in "Classicvania" games, they are harder to justify in a "Metroidvania"; but that doesn't mean there should not be costly obstacles and traps in that genre. Spike pits, acid pools, lava flows, swinging guillotines, poison water, whirlpools, etc really need to be implemented to a good ratio in the design, or we get stuck with flat halls or meandering climbs featuring endless beat-em-up monotony--and potentially cut-and-pasted structures. Even so, if I recall correctly, Metroidvania-type games like the Mega Man ZX series (by Inti Creates) have shown that traditional "death pits" can be thrown in every now and then (depending on the environment). We can't forget that Simon's Quest, a proto-SotN, had "death pits," and the beloved Rondo of Blood has both "death pits" and non-"death pits." Ultimately, for this kind of game, it comes down to making design clarity for the player--even if that clarity is intended to cause uncertainty. Anyway, while I know it shouldn't be the focus, the level of action-platforming in the Mega Man ZX series is something I would hope to experience at some point in Bloodstained--during later areas, perhaps.

Now, as for Classic Mode, I absolutely expect (and demand!) "death pits." One of the reasons I backed Bloodstained was so that there would be a great new Classivania experience. I hope that Classic Mode is at least on par with The Adventure Rebirth; though, I really want it to be better than that. There isn't much reason not to bring in some Super Castlevania IV-like interactivity, with whip gap-swinging and such. (Miriam could do it by magic via her back if not her whip). For that matter, I think the previously mentioned ability needs to be in the main game for the simple reason of the dynamics and variety it would bring to level progression/traversal--much like the Grappling Beam in Super Metroid.

And with all of that out of the way, I've got to put in a plug for YOOKA-LAYLEE (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/playtonic/yooka-laylee-a-3d-platformer-rare-vival). The video game industry needs a game like this just as much as it needs something like Bloodstained, IMO. Plus, it brought a lot of video gamer attention to Kickstarter just prior to Bloodstained (it was one of the fastest video games to make its base level of money before Bloodstained, if I recall), and its spirit is essentially from the same era of gaming as SotN. So, consider backing it, or telling someone who might be interested in backing it. The tiers are largely lower than Bloodstained was to get the full game, as far as I can tell. If you haven't heard, it's from a talented team of senior ex-employees of Rare involved in Banjo Kazooie, Donkey Kong 64, etc. Its in the same vein as those previous personality-filled 3D platforming games, where you have 3D playground-type worlds in which you solve puzzles and grab collectables to progress through said worlds and unlock new ones. You do so with a duo of characters who work together, and it's been stated that the overall game design will be honed from past efforts. These non-linear 3D platforming adventure games have largely disappeared, as even Nintendo has shifted their 3D Mario series in a more linear/stage-based direction as of late. Anyway, Yooka-Laylee's creators dumped their own money into making it up to this point, and went to Kickstarter to secure funds that would allow them to expand the game's content and reach. It's at 1,915,826 British Pounds right now with 53 hours left, and if it reaches 2 Million British Pounds (a little over 3 Million US Dollars), Backers get free DLC in the final stretch goal. Just something to consider.

[Belmontoya]

Instant death pits are completely ancient design. While good for pure platformers, it makes 0 sense in exploration type games.

SM did it right, with many type of harzards on the floor.

The wheel is a completely ancient design. Should we stop using that as well?

I don't agree with you saying that it makes zero sense in exploration games. Like RichterB said, Simon's Quest got it right. Zelda 2 is another example. All that really means is that you haven't seen many games that have done it, or done it well. That doesn't mean that it can't happen.

Like I said, I don't think that igavania's need to be about platforming danger. It's cool to let it be it's own thing. But you saying that in makes zero sense in exploration games general is another thing. And I think there is and will be games that prove that theory wrong.

Difficult platforming and exploration can work together. And the when they do, the result is awesome.

[theANdROId]

Did CV2 or LoZ2 have death pits though? The only ones I can remember in either game had water or lava.  I thought that was the debate/suggestion.  That makes more sense to me in a Metroidvania, whether it actually insta-kills or not.

[Belmontoya]

It doesn't make a difference what's at the bottom of the pit.

Death pit. You fall in, you die.

And yes all of those games have them.