Castlevania Dungeon Forums
Off Topic => Off Topic => Topic started by: Mooning Freddy on March 28, 2015, 09:47:07 AM
-
Boy meets girl. They like each other. They start dating. Their connection becomes stronger and turns into love.
They spend more time together. Become the best of friends. Support each other and are happy to have each.
Time passes. They move in together. Everything is perfect. They have no doubt they were created for each other.
Boy decides the time has come to take the relationship to the next level. For the first time, he seriously mentions the "m" word.
The smile goes off the girl's face. She becomes serious. She asks whether he's serious about it. He says yes.
She says no.
What happens next? Friends always make it seem so simple. When the right stage in the relationship comes, boy kneels, takes out a ring, and says the four words. The girl gets excited and shout out "yes" and everybody claps their hands.
But what happens if your partner says he/she loves you and wants to go on living with you, but is opposed to the legal/juridical/moral obligation of marriage? Would you consider that as a sign they don't really trust you? That they don't want to obligate to you? Would you consider it a dealbreaker? Would you see him / her as immature because they don't want to obligate?
I want to hear your comments on this. :-\
-
I'm assuming this happened to you? Some people just don't see a need to get married, they don't want the legal implications of it.
But more than anything, it seems like there's an aspect of the relationship she's not happy with. It's possible you could get to therapy or talk it out, but you may not like the things that come out of that. If you really care about this person I'd say that's the way to go, but there's obviously something wrong that you're either not acknowledging or that she's not saying.
-
But what happens if your partner says he/she loves you and wants to go on living with you, but is opposed to the legal/juridical/moral obligation of marriage?
This is me. I don't believe in marriage nor should I be forced to enter into one just to be happy. With marriage comes all sorts of unnecessary expectations and responsibilities that can cause unneeded stress for both partners. Far too many people nowadays are getting married and divorcing almost immediately afterwards. It's essentially no different then throwing all your hard-earned money away. People don't need marriage in order to live happily ever after. There are many couples out there that are not married yet they've been with each other since the beginnings of their relationship. They love each other, they trust each other implicitly, and they know that they were meant to be together. So in that hindsight marriage is unnecessary. If I love someone I'll just live with that person; No strings attached. And if we should decide to go our separate ways, then there's no need of any messy divorce since we're not married. It's just so much easier and far less stressful to not get married and possible end up paying for it (in more ways then one) later on if it doesn't work out.
-
It's more complicated than that. She had made it clear when we started the relationship that for her, making the career she wants is more important than any relationship. While I do not necessarily see that as a problem for our relationship, she has very clear principles that may make it difficult for me. For instance, she wants to home-school her kids and at the same time doesn't want them to come between her and her dream career. So, when she has kids, she wants to dedicate as much time as possible to them until the time she is capable of doing it, she simply doesn't want to have children, which means 10-15 or more years. I don't know if I'm okay with that.
It seems like I need to make great sacrifices to have a family with her. And even though I love her greatly, I don't know if I would be willing to do that, especially since it seems she's not as willing to make sacrifices for me.
-
Then it's possible that you two might not be as compatible as you first thought. Both partners must make equal sacrifices in any relationship otherwise there will be conflicts of interests and/or expectations.
-
Well said X. I would echo your statement with one minor change to say, "...Both partners must make equal sacrifices and/or have similar enough desires and goals in any relationship..."
-
Then it's possible that you two might not be as compatible as you first thought. Both partners must make equal sacrifices in any relationship otherwise there will be conflicts of interests and/or expectations.
Well, the thing is, I do want to try and make it work. After a conversation with her, we kinda reached a position in which she said she might be okay with a wedding event, but not with marriage. This is quite close to my position because I care less about the legal obligation in marriage but want to have a wedding as something to look forward to.
And if we should decide to go our separate ways, then there's no need of any messy divorce since we're not married.
While I slightly agree with that, I still think one of the good things about marriage is that it ties people together more than a normal relationship. So if they run into difficulties, they have more motivation to try and work out their differences in opinion than just split. Marriage makes you less free to do what you want but also gives you a sense of security.
-
While I slightly agree with that, I still think one of the good things about marriage is that it ties people together more than a normal relationship. So if they run into difficulties, they have more motivation to try and work out their differences in opinion than just split. Marriage makes you less free to do what you want but also gives you a sense of security.
Oh believe me, you don't need to be married in order to help each other out in difficult situations. That is something that comes from within yourself and has nothing to do with any legal marriage obligations. If you truly love someone then the will to help that person, no matter the challenge, will be there. Marriage doesn't give you that. It comes from you. The will of your very soul in wanting to help another person. I won't try to dissuade you from marriage as you're pretty dead-set on it. But just some food for thought; love itself is not a human invention as is the concept of marriage. Love is God's willing gift to us, and a very special gift to honor no-less.
-
A ring on the finger and signatures on a legal document don't define love, the intimacy of the bond, or the strength of the union.
Yes, obviously marriage is the quote-unquote ultimate commitment, but really I don't think its presence (or lack thereof) defines the quality of the relationship, unless of course it were a toxic one to begin with (and this doesn't appear to be your case).
But I don't think her not wanting to get hitched is an immediate sign she's untrustworthy or somehow loves you less. Don't let what-ifs mess with your mind, Freddy, those'll fuck you over more than a bare finger ever would.
-
I don't know how common it is, but apparently you don't need documents and a ring to have a state recognized marriage. Where I live, if you live together for more than 90 days I think it is, you are common law married. Which I'm sure won't hold up in court the same way if you have a legal dispute.
I personally want to get married someday, but I don't believe in all the ridiculous legal crap it brings. And I will have a prenup, because I refuse to get screwed if it all goes south.
-
It's more complicated than that. She had made it clear when we started the relationship that for her, making the career she wants is more important than any relationship. While I do not necessarily see that as a problem for our relationship, she has very clear principles that may make it difficult for me. For instance, she wants to home-school her kids and at the same time doesn't want them to come between her and her dream career. So, when she has kids, she wants to dedicate as much time as possible to them until the time she is capable of doing it, she simply doesn't want to have children, which means 10-15 or more years. I don't know if I'm okay with that.
It seems like I need to make great sacrifices to have a family with her. And even though I love her greatly, I don't know if I would be willing to do that, especially since it seems she's not as willing to make sacrifices for me.
Your answer is right there...At least in regards to Marriage.
Being in a relationship that's one thing, but marriage is a whole another animal indeed.
If both parties are not 100% into it then DONT DO IT.
And even then it's not guaranteed to work out.
This statement alone makes me thing you need to reevaluate your relationship and if need be let her go...
-
If both parties are not 100% into it then DONT DO IT.
And even then it's not guaranteed to work out.
This statement alone makes me think you need to reevaluate your relationship and if need be let her go...
The thing is, I am willing to go to great efforts to make the relationship work. It's not a teenage kind of crush, I like her more than anyone I met and I also love her family. We are not just lovers, we are also best friends. I truly think being with her enlightens me and makes me a better person. Which is the reason I'm not willing to leave her because of our differences in opinion, but hope we'd be able to sort them out over time. She also doesn't want me to leave her and says that if I do, she doubts she'd find anyone else who would understand and love her so much and be lonely and depressed.
I also feel my reasons for ending the relationship are somewhat conservative and hypothetical and because I pressure myself into thinking about children since I think not doing it would be immature (I'm 25). The thing is, I don't even want children at the moment. It's just that her "I'm not going to have children anytime soon" statement pisses me off. Isn't that something we should be deciding on together?
I also feel like accepting her "conditions" for living together as a family makes me a dependent boyfriend who lets his woman pull him by the nose and fails to get what he wants from her.
-
It's just that her "I'm not going to have children anytime soon" statement pisses me off. Isn't that something we should be deciding on together?
Yes and no. Since she's the woman she will be the one to literally carry the kid inside her and give birth to the kid, as well as nursing the kid. No man can just forcibly decide for a woman that he wants kids and expects the woman to follow suit. it doesn't work that way nor should it otherwise. Unless she's 100% into it, then don't force her to or she might decide to do something drastic and walk out on the relationship due to the suffocating pressure. If she's ready she'll let you know. And that is the best thing that any man should be expecting or hoping for. While it takes two to conceive children it is the woman who does more for them naturally and therefore she does get more say about whether or not to have them.
-
X is right on it here. Yes, it should be a decision the two of you come to consensus on, but at the end of the day you aren't the one lugging the kid around for almost a year and dealing with all the physical stresses that come with it. So in all realism and fairness she should have a bit more say. Of course, it is better if the two of you agree on the right time to have them.
It's sounding to me more like you're having self-imposed hangups from asking yourself a lot of "what if" questions rather than her pulling you by the nose. I mean, while we'll totally be here for you to talk, shouldn't you be having this discussion with her, rather than us?
-
It's sounding to me more like you're having self-imposed hangups from asking yourself a lot of "what if" questions rather than her pulling you by the nose.
You are probably right.
I mean, while we'll totally be here for you to talk, shouldn't you be having this discussion with her, rather than us?
It's not like I'm not doing it. I want to hear other people's opinion about this situation after some arguments (probably more like heated discussions) with her.
-
That's well and fine, but hearing multiple outside opinions is (if it already hasn't) probably going to conjure up new what-ifs and spin you around even more.
Communication is key, mate. Hell, you could probably show her this thread to iterate just how much it's eating away at you.
-
Drac and X are right. Especially, about the children thing. It's all easy to talk about kids, but until you have one that's not just another chapter that's a whole nother book.
I JUST had my first child, a son. He's 24 days old. I just turned 35 at the end of January. I've been with my wife for 7 years and we have been married for 5 years.
Bringing a child into this Earth is not something that should be taken lightly, so if BOTH parties aren't into it (just with anything else) then I say again DON'T DO IT.
If you have to have a argument with your special someone and basically try to coherence or force them to play your hand, then re-evaluate your relationship.
Hell, maybe you guys should take some time apart and even see other people to really see how you both stand.
You also need to consider is your "relationship" more important than your friendship?
I mention this because marriage (even serious or causal dating) can do irreversible damage to your friendship status.
Is that worth the risk of maybe never being able to talk to her again if it goes bad?
Man, sounds to me you should just enjoy the moment and don't push ANY issues.
As you mentioned you are in your twenties and you don't know how the next couple of years play out for you.
You may really meet "The One" and your previous status may just become a footnote in your life's quest.
Just something to think about bro, don't be so quick to put all your eggs in one basket.
I know it's hard because real men are taught to put women on a pedestal so to speak, but you have great things to offer to the a special someone as well.
It goes both ways.
-
^^^ This, this this, and THIS! I definitely think you're a bit young to be thinking about marriage Freddy.
But with that said, I don't know where you live, but it confers certain legal benefits. If your significant other is in a fatal car wreck and her family doesn't like you, if you're not married, there's a good chance the hospital won't even let you see her. There are tax benefits here in the US too, which is bullshit, but whatever. If she's as young as you are, and is as driven as you say she is, then I guess I can kind of see why she's not in a hurry to get married.
-
^^^ This, this this, and THIS! I definitely think you're a bit young to be thinking about marriage Freddy.
If she's as young as you are, and is as driven as you say she is, then I guess I can kind of see why she's not in a hurry to get married.
Well, I guess one of the reasons for this is that virtually all of my extended family got married and had children at a fairly young age, in their twenties. The only exception is my aunt, who is a shy and awkward woman with low self esteem, who had a child at a fairly old age and lives with a man who doesn't appear to really love her. I feel that she compromised for this relationship because she was getting old and lonely. Most of my family seem to be quite happily married and never have gone through a divorce.
My father married my mother quite a short while after he met her, and they had their first child (me) at 22.
Personally, I feel like it would be a mistake for me to break up with someone that I love, and who loves me, as much as my significant other. I feel that our love would allow us to work out our different opinions.
-
As I said, a marriage license does not and should not validate or invalidate love. Obviously marriage on an emotional and intimacy level is different.
It's sounding to me like you're wanting marriage to somehow make your relationship happier or better, or something of that ilk. There's a hell of a lot more to it than that, and I iterate once more that you shouldn't NEED to push marriage to "prove" how much you love her, or anything like that.
A happy, loving relationship is the whole cake, marriage is just some really nice frosting.
-
Well, I guess one of the reasons for this is that virtually all of my extended family got married and had children at a fairly young age, in their twenties. The only exception is my aunt, who is a shy and awkward woman with low self esteem, who had a child at a fairly old age and lives with a man who doesn't appear to really love her. I feel that she compromised for this relationship because she was getting old and lonely. Most of my family seem to be quite happily married and never have gone through a divorce.
My father married my mother quite a short while after he met her, and they had their first child (me) at 22.
This sounds to me that you are experiencing what's known as peer pressure. You see almost every one of your family succeeding in terms of marriage and you find yourself wanting the same. You can't help but follow suit because that's what's been ingrained into you. Be very careful. Peer pressure is a definite deal-breaker for your love life. You want marriage and you want children. But she's not yet ready for it so don't push her to the breaking point. All things happen when they happen. In their own good time. Sure you're in your thirties but so am I. You already have what I don't. Love. I'm alone. Really alone. You're not. Don't throw it away for being in a rush to tie the knot. Honor and cherish every single second of it. True marriage is not an expensive ceremony with family and attendances. No Priest to tell you that you are now married. No legal documents to sign--none of that matters. Love is the true bonds of matrimony and you already have that with her.
-
Everyone has already said a lot of great stuff, but I wanted to put in my two cents:
-----
I don't think this is about marriage itself as much as it you feeling like you aren't as important to the woman you love as she is to you.
It sounds like, to me, that you're worried that her lack of desire to get married to you may possibly reflect a lack of commitment to a future you may have together; it sounds like you're worried that "I'm not having kids for a long while" may be too long for you. You've said that she believes that making the career she wants is more important than any relationship. The only way I can interpret that from over here on my computer is that making the career she wants is, push come to shove, more important than her relationship with you. That if she had to choose between you or her career, she'd choose the career.
I think you two, together, need to sit down and evaluate your relationship and ask yourself some questions~
-What does marriage mean to you? What does marriage mean to her? Are those meanings at least similar? If they're different, which I expect they are, how do they differ? Is that ok with you?
-What kind of commitment are you looking for? Do you want to be with this woman forever? Does she want to be with you forever?
-Does your love for her outwiegh the possibility that you may never get the family you want? Are you ok with the knowledge that your relationship with her comes second to her job?
I believe that marriage, in its ideal, non-legal, non-tax benefit form, is wholly a commitment to always place your spouse's needs, and the needs of the family you may or may not have, above your own. It is love in that its a decision made every day to treat your spouse like they are the most important thing in the world. With that being said, such a commitment only works if both people are making it. Otherwise it becomes one-sided and poisonous for both parties involved. It's not something you want to push into or be pushed into. It'll only amplify any negative feelings that may be there.
So again, I think you and your girlfriend need to seriously, and calmly talk to each other about your values, your priorities, and your plans for the future, and make sure that you guys truly compatable with each other.
-
Real love cannot be trumped by career ambitions.
-
It sounds like, to me, that you're worried that her lack of desire to get married to you may possibly reflect a lack of commitment to a future you may have together; it sounds like you're worried that "I'm not having kids for a long while" may be too long for you. You've said that she believes that making the career she wants is more important than any relationship. The only way I can interpret that from over here on my computer is that making the career she wants is, push come to shove, more important than her relationship with you. That if she had to choose between you or her career, she'd choose the career.
If I put it before her that way, she would say, "yes, my career is more important. But... I really wouldn't want you to make me take that choice." And then she would try to convince me how I would be happy too if I stayed with her and let her pursue her life of choice, and how lonely she would be if I left her. Technically she has an advantage in this argument because she already imagines what her dream career and life is going to be like, while I haven't really decided yet. So it's easier for her to convince me.
What annoys me is the idea- that she basically wants me to compromise on my goals for the sake of love while not altering hers.
What does marriage mean to you? What does marriage mean to her? Are those meanings at least similar? If they're different, which I expect they are, how do they differ? Is that ok with you? What kind of commitment are you looking for? Do you want to be with this woman forever? Does she want to be with you forever?
That's part of the problem. She would say that she wants to be with me forever and doesn't want anybody else, but sometimes I feel that she sees me like her teddy bear, that I'm her best friend, the guy who helps her and supports her and makes love to her. But that is not exactly what a husband is, and a true partnership requires more than that, like a true commitment to partnership and cooperation and compromise, not just the "I would love you forever as long as you let me do what I want" that she gives me.
Does your love for her outwiegh the possibility that you may never get the family you want? Are you ok with the knowledge that your relationship with her comes second to her job?
Another part of the problem. I think that she somewhat lives in a dream world and that she might not necessarily succeed in her choice of career. That might just be me being a horrible pessimist, and I really hope she does succeed, but she's very ideological, and I feel sometimes she's not being realistic and down-to-earth enough. I don't really know what kind of family I want; as long as it's a true partnership like I described before.
My second persona is not allowing me to end the relationship because I have doubts about it. It may sound weird, but the fact that the relationship is difficult is actually encouraging me to continue it. It's like a challenge that I need to overcome. I feel like I completed the first stage of finding a person that I like enough to live the rest of my life with. Now comes the second, harder stage, of trying to form a stable, solid partnership with her. Is that insane? Am I a relationship masochist? :P
-
If I put it before her that way, she would say, "yes, my career is more important. But... I really wouldn't want you to make me take that choice." And then she would try to convince me how I would be happy too if I stayed with her and let her pursue her life of choice, and how lonely she would be if I left her. Technically she has an advantage in this argument because she already imagines what her dream career and life is going to be like, while I haven't really decided yet. So it's easier for her to convince me.
What annoys me is the idea- that she basically wants me to compromise on my goals for the sake of love while not altering hers.
I think that "yes, my career is more important" in any form is a big red flag in and of itself. That's not a foundation for a healthy relationship, marriage or no. You not having planned out the rest of your life by the age of 25 in no way makes you less important than her career.
At the same time, I would never force her to make the choice for the sake of making the choice. If you're happy where you are, and have no reason to potentially end the relationship, then don't force her to choose. But to me it doesn't sound like you see the relationship going in the direction that you want, and it's making you unhappy. If your goals are to get married and have kids, and hers are not, that's going to be a problem at some point.
That's part of the problem. She would say that she wants to be with me forever and doesn't want anybody else, but sometimes I feel that she sees me like her teddy bear, that I'm her best friend, the guy who helps her and supports her and makes love to her. But that is not exactly what a husband is, and a true partnership requires more than that, like a true commitment to partnership and cooperation and compromise, not just the "I would love you forever as long as you let me do what I want" that she gives me.
I agree with everything you've just said. Neither a husband nor a wife is just someone you keep around to make you feel good. It is a mutual partnership built on sacrifice, compromise, and self-giving.
Because of that, what I've bolded stands out to me. You are supposed to help her and support her. That's an important part of a healthy relationship, so you're doing that right, which makes me ask: Do you feel like your girlfriend is not helping and supporting you? Do you have goals that you feel you aren't being nurtured? Do you have a career that you feel your girlfriend wouldn't sacrfice for to see succeed under any circumstances? Do you feel like if you stayed in this relationship you'd be taking a backseat, and be taken along for the ride?
Another part of the problem. I think that she somewhat lives in a dream world and that she might not necessarily succeed in her choice of career. That might just be me being a horrible pessimist, and I really hope she does succeed, but she's very ideological, and I feel sometimes she's not being realistic and down-to-earth enough. I don't really know what kind of family I want; as long as it's a true partnership like I described before.
I don't know you, and I don't know your girlfriend, so all I have is your side of the story. So I'm going to attempt to look at this from her side of the argument given what you've said in this thread.
You've said that she's very driven, and it sounds like to me she's got a plan for her life. Are you driven? Do you have a goal that you're willing to pursue to the point where she wants to get behind it? Are you someone who is worth compromising for? If she took a risk by marrying you and having your children, something that could very well hurt her career aspirations, would It pay off? Would you be able to pick up the slack? Are you someone that can help her build the life she wants?
I'm in no way trying to imply that you're doing something wrong by not having everything planned out for yourself at 25, but if she is very goal oriented and you're not, that might explain why she's not being very compromising.
Or she could just be stubborn and unwilling to compromise because that's how she is. Again, I'm not you.
My second persona is not allowing me to end the relationship because I have doubts about it. It may sound weird, but the fact that the relationship is difficult is actually encouraging me to continue it. It's like a challenge that I need to overcome. I feel like I completed the first stage of finding a person that I like enough to live the rest of my life with. Now comes the second, harder stage, of trying to form a stable, solid partnership with her. Is that insane? Am I a relationship masochist? :P
Monogomy is a challenge, and being married myself, I think Scott M. Peck said it best: "Love is an act of will -- namely, both an intention and an action. Will also implies choice. We do not have to love. We choose to love.”
There's nothing insane about recognizing that a relationship takes hard work and effort to make work, and I admire your desire to want to work through a rough patch in your relationship rather than jump ship. You're making a choice to love your girlfriend, you just want to see that love returned.
That being said, you cannot change your girlfriend. She may never change. And that's her right. So you have a very simple decision to make: If nothing changed about your relationship, would you be ok with that? Would you want to spend the rest of your life with your girlfriend exactly the same as she is now?
I like metaphors, so bear with me: It's much like a house. If your ultimate goal is to find a house in the woods, and you live in a house in the city, no amount of home repairs and structural solidification will move your house to where you want it to be. That doesn't mean you can't be happy in the city, but if it's not where you want to be, then it's not where you want to be, end of story.
I don't think talking to us about it anymore is going to help you. You need to reflect on it, and have a serious talk with your girlfriend about it. I'll be praying for you, and I hope whatever you ultimately decide is the right choice for you.
-
Thank e105beta. What you said helps me make more order in the questions I should ask in my discussions with her.
I think after hearing what you people have to say I know better how to discuss and address those things that bother me.
You're awesome. :rollseyes:
-
Always a pleasure Mooning Freddy, you're welcome :)