Topic: What is it about a "bad hero" that appeals to us so much?

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Games with morality systems have brought something to my attention: People LOVE to see a hero go bad.

Something about watching Spider-man, or Superman, or Batman, or any other hero start to lose their grip on their principles and become corrupted is something a lot of folks (myself included) love to watch. And it's not just the badass costumery either. Watching a maddened Superman kill a criminal in cold blood after this villain has killed a good friend of his is somehow... humbling. Watching Wonder Woman kill Max Lord was equally well done and these incidents show that no matter how principled the hero, everyone has their breaking point, and when the hero hits that point, pray to whatever God you believe in that you be spared the flame.

Now then, I've mused on this many times, but have never before actually put thoughts into writing.

Why do we find this sort of story event appealing? By all rights, we shouldn't. A hero abandoning their principles and acting strictly according to their wants is often a bad thing, because when you have the ability to level a city block just by taking off your sunglasses or can make a grown man believe he's a six year old girl for the rest of his life just by THINKING ABOUT IT, your moral principals are pretty much the only thing keeping society safe from you.

When a superhero starts to waver in their beliefs, they are at a tipping point. They can either go back to being who and what they were before (and they usually do), or they can go the full Benedict Arnold and turn into a villain. Furthermore, some pull an additional about-face and eventually go back to being a hero, because screw consistency.

The first example of why we find these scenarios so popular is at the "Tipping Point" stage.

The Hero in Question: Spider-man, an icon familiar to many, and a hero in possession of one of the most well known lapses in super-principles.

When Spider-man first discovered what his symbiote suit could do, one of his first thoughts was how much more good he could do with this new power. Wouldn't that also be what would go through most of our heads? And sure enough, he used the power to great effect, and for a time, it was good. But with great power comes great responsibility, and with GREATER power comes even GREATER responsibility. Spider-man began to waver in his beliefs, becoming more and more corrupted by his new power (some may submit that it was the symbiote actively turning him evil. That's an entirely different discussion, so let's keep this example simple). Spider-man became increasingly violent, dealing with his enemies in more and more brutal ways. And for a time, it was quite badass. But then he reached the threshold of good and evil. He had to make a choice, and he came to grips with who and what he was becoming. He didn't want to become a monster, and ultimately rejected the new power in favor of his old self.

In this scenario, Spider-man has learned that great power and irresponsible actions does not a great hero make. He learned a valuable lesson, one which he never forgot, and it deepened his character. Who can argue with that? Plus it gave us Venom. Go Venom.

But what if the hero DOESN'T turn back? What if they turn into an actual villain?

The second indicator is when the villain the hero becomes is WAY MORE INTERESTING AS A CHARACTER than the hero version ever was.

Hero Villain in question: Sephiroth.

While this should be a big "duh", hear me out. Sephiroth has created legions of fans for no reason other than wearing black, having a huge sword, and going batshit insane. Oh, and he's pretty. Ish.

Yes, I prefer Sephiroth being a hero, but I'm a rare duck in that regard.

Sephiroth is one of the gaming world's most famous examples of a Face Heel Turn, and a character turning completely evil. He was an okay guy, loved by, iunno, EVERYBODY, and furthermore, was aware of that fact. And yet, he reached his breaking point, and well.... a lot of people died.

Sephiroth burned a village and slaughtered the locals. Then Zack and Cloud beat the ever loving crap out of him, and actually killed him. But Sephiroth cheated death, and quickly readied himself for round two. Concocting one dastardly plan after another, he almost became a god. Too bad Cloud killed him. Again.

Two deaths could not keep Seph down, and well... Cloud killed him AGAIN. Maybe people like him because he's so persistent? Whatever the cause, Sephiroth the villain is almost universally considered more interesting than Sephiroth the Hero, and seeing as they are the same guy, I don't think his good looks have anything to do with it in the end.

Sephiroth became a classic case of with great power comes great insanity, and one reason why the story of this hero-turned-villain is so popular is because he is always thwarted by Cloud at the last minute. Imagine the bummer that would have been if Sephiroth HAD become a God... and then the game ended because Cloud had been too late. And the inevitable sequel HADN'T happened. You'd be pretty pissed. So people are free to like him as a pretty, fictional villain, because he will never actually win; no matter how dire the situation, someone will always rise to defeat him.

Sometimes though, a hero-turned-villain learns the error of their ways, and goes back to being a hero. This is often the most popular of story events in this genre. Just as people love to see a hero go bad, they also like to see a villain turn good.

The Hero villain Hero in question: Darth Vader.

Darth Vader is one of the most popular villains, and as Anakin Skywalker (Also read: Total Ham), he was increasingly corrupted by fear of losing his beloved (but nobody in the audience with a soul liked Padme anyway). He became Darth Vader and led the almost total extinction of the Jedi. He committed even more nefarious deeds and became one of the most feared men in the universe. And yet, love for his son overpowered his evil, leading him to redemption in the end. In the end, Anakin Skywalker was given a noble rebirth, right before his unfortunate death by asphyxiation at the hands of his son whom he so nobly killed his Dark Master to save.

We love this sort of story, because in the end, the one thing we like to see more than a hero fall is a villain redeemed. When the two combine, you have frankly, poetry in action, and it's going to get people cheering, crying, or whatever else the scene calls for. The villain, his heart calloused and encased in ice, experiences something that melts his cold heart and reawakens the noble knight who once was. It's a classic tale, and people LOVE IT.

Because dammit, GOOD ALWAYS WINS IN REAL LIFE.

....Doesn't it...?

[A-Yty]

When they're against the norm, they provide a refreshing take on character interpretations. But in a world that nowadays favors gritty reboots and equals darker and edgier with complex, smart writing, I've kind of gotten sick of it.

All in all, I like my heroes heroic. They don't have to be nihilistic and/or prone to killing to be humanely flawed (not that I don't like certain heroes that are like that; it's a matter of how important it is to the character's core).

[A-Yty]

As to the question of why? Beats me. Maybe it's a consuming reality subtext; people don't want to even pretend that someone would remain uncorrupted. Then again, hubris as a plot device is older than shit when it comes to writing drama. I think what has changed is how it got turned around. It used to be about why a hero has gone bad or why a villain became a villain in the first place (Vader, for example).  Now it's: "why would Superman be a boy scout even though he has godly powers"?.

I've never liked the idea of Batman or Superman as killers outside of few well-constructed alternate universes because they're kind of lazy. It's more challenging to keep a boy scout god relevant and interesting in an increasingly cynical, nihilistic world than to have him don a black shirt and fry evildoers with his heat vision. It's more inspiring to see Batman struggle with the tempting idea of putting the worst criminals down for good than to make him a laconic billionaire Wolverine.

[X]

I find heroes becoming villains interesting on many levels. It lets us know that nobody is ever truly perfect because they are all flawed beings like everyone else. They may have super powers, powerful magic or even high intelligence, but when you break it all down what you have left over is just a person who's flawed and makes mistakes. My favorite take on a hero-gone-villain would have to be the movie Superman III. When Superman is exposed to that chunk of counterfeit Kryptonite, his psyche starts doing a 180. And the best part about that was when he fought himself for total control. Although not a hardcore villain as the stuff made him act like he was intoxicated and also making him really pissed off near the end of it, it was still an interesting set of scenes. Quite original for when the movie was made at the time.

[Arma]

(but nobody in the audience with a soul liked Padme anyway)
I like her, I'm not a fan of the series but I liked the movies and don't see what's to hate about her.

Under certain situations a hero turning evil can provide an interesting plot twist, for example when we have a naive hero that often gets into trouble for being overly forgiving. If that hero eventually gets tired and take shit no more giving his enemies the what-for we were expecting then hell yeah I wanna see that. But I don't like when they get too unapproachable or dark.

I like my heroes well tempered and so the villains. A righteous hero that knows when is the right moment for a good thrashing is the best, they don't need to be evil to do that.

Complexity is the key word here.
It's often to depict a simpleton or unexperienced character that get more complex through becoming evil and then turning back to good. I don't necessary like that way, I think a character can gain a more interesting personality with certain experiences rather than religiously always going to the dark side, it's even more interesting because it's harder to write a story like that, becoming evil is like some sort of shorcut in this case.

As for the villains I don't like when they are excessively crazy or violent either, I always watch those and wonder why they have to be so fucking crazy.
I mean it's so crazy it's boring, unless is cartoon crazy. That one's funny.

I don't really like FF so I was left out of the Sephiroth fan club so for me good examples of heroe and villain behaviour would be Kain and Raziel respectively (from Legacy of Kain videogames)

Kain is not evil but he's still a villain and Raziel is no hero but he's pretty righteous, both very interesting characters that turn from one side to another without going nuts, rather they change their opinions as they learn the truth behind things but even when they're mad and feel betrayed they don't go raving bonkers. The story is well written and these characters never loose their personalities.

There are many characters like that I've seen on tv, movies, etc. but they mostly go unnoticed 'cause everyone prefers the crazy, dark, pansy-looking or normal handsome formula.

 

[Mooning Freddy]

The whole idea behind bad heroes is not new at all. If you look for the term "antihero" you may find it's a character very often used in modern literature. An author known for his antiheroic characters is O. Henry.

An antihero doesn't have to be a good man gone bad, he can just be a criminal, or a man with distorted morals.
What makes antiheroes appeal to us? Well, nobody knows. Ever try to explain why gangster movies are so popular? Gangsters steal, kill, bribe and blackmail their way to the top. It's repulsing to us, because we see those things as wrong actions which ruin our society. And still we like them. Why? Because maybe our life is boring and every one of us wants to break the rules sometimes and be that gangster living on the edge. 

As for bad superheroes, I can't believe no one of you mentioned Rorschach and The Comedian. The Comedian is a superhero who is pretty much an anarchist, as a reflection of all the sick society in our world, and Rorschach is just plain crazy. He has become a cruel and dark personality after being disappointed with humanity. And he's my favorite character in the movie. 

Also, Tyler Durden. Seriously, Brad Pitt is a genius in that role. He's not just some hippy trying to fix the world, his view of life is that the world and human life is distorted, and that everyday routine in the modern world is against human nature. That is why his "fight club" becomes so popular. People don't want rules, they want to obey their most basic instincts. The fear of death makes them feel alive. And that's something else.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

I hate Watchmen. Mostly because Alan Moore is a terribly horrible person who eats the dreams of small children and then sets their families on fire after shooting up with some mind altering drug. Probably LSD. Metaphorically. Except the drugs probably AREN'T metaphorical.


The face of a man who's TOTALLY CLEAN.





And I never bothered to make it past "YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT FIGHT CLUB", so I honestly can't pass judgement on anything to do with that movie.

[EDIT] This is not a discussion of anti-heroes, or at least it was not intended to be. It's about upstanding heroes who flirt with darkness, and are either seduced by it or regain their principles somewhere along the line.

Batman's an anti-hero. Dante from Devil May Cry? Also a sort of anti-hero. Neither are on this list, because anti-heroes tend not to flirt with either side. They've been on the fence all along in most cases.

If you like Anti-Hero discussion, go read DC's Kingdom Come storyline, and then we'll chat for hours on end. It's a fantastic dissection of the topic.

[A-Yty]

I don't think I'd call main continuity Batman anti-hero. At his core, he is not a misanthrope, violent or even nihilistic. He makes sure not to permanently harm even the worst kind and would die to protect people he doesn't even know. He's more like a hero wrapped in the guise of an urban legend bogeyman. Criminals fear him and the innocent find him just creepy at worst, but hardly ever threatening.

[Mooning Freddy]

It's really too bad you didn't like Watchmen, LumiRockets. Personally, I think it's one of the best super-hero movies ever made (and for once, a movie that DOESN'T have a corny, teenage storyline).
I never read the comics, but I really liked the whole idea of the movie, that Superheroes are humans too, may become old and frustrated, and can't always tell between right and wrong.

WATCHMEN - The Comedian

WATCHMEN - Rorschach

Watchmen Rorschach HD
Best scene in the movie.

[TheouAegis]

Or Nagumo from Urotsukidouji: Legend of the Overfiend. The Chuujinkai awaited his awakening as a god to bring the three worlds together,but then Nagumo rampaged and destroyed the worlds to make way for his offspring, the Overfiend.

...But that's not really a hero gone bad, I guess....

If you've never seen urotsukidouji, it's a good movie. I stand by my word.

[Flame]

Big Daddy from Kick-Ass.

The guy who raised his daughter to be an 11 year old assassin who swears like a sailor.

That's a pretty "dark" hero right there.

people like heroes like that because they break away from the typical superman mold, or even the batman mold, of heroes who are all goody goody and have moral standards.

[TheouAegis]

The Red Priest Rezo from Slayers. He wanted more power to help people, so he dabbled in the dark arts and gave his soul over to the Dark Lord Shabraniggdo and ended up destroying whole kingdoms. But in the end of the series, he was still a good guy and cured one kingdom of a plague.