Topic: This may sound like a odd request but...

[Zydalc]

I wonder if cheat codes are possible in fan games especially LeCarde Chronicles? Since both of those games are just too hard for me to play to be honest not to mention I don't have that much patience for them either.

[Aceearly1993]

For LC2 You can modify save data by notepad (the built in notepad function in Windows) and change the corresponding value (weapon, enemy chart, ability, etc.) to achieve (sort of) save hack purpose

I don't quite know the situation of LC1, but the difficulty is really not that worse (only count normal & easy; hard mode is a whole new story though) I guess Cheat engine helps?

[Zydalc]

For LC2 You can modify save data by notepad (the built in notepad function in Windows) and change the corresponding value (weapon, enemy chart, ability, etc.) to achieve (sort of) save hack purpose

How I do that or rather I mean where are the save data at?

I don't quite know the situation of LC1, but the difficulty is really not that worse (only count normal & easy; hard mode is a whole new story though) I guess Cheat engine helps?

Where can this cheat engine be found?

[Dracula9]

Or, you know, you could just git gud.

Definitely not a massive insult to us devs or anything when players would rather cheat their way to victory before actually earning it at least once.

This is just another nail in the coffin as to why I'm encoding the fuck out of all of Umbra's data, so all our hard work doesn't go to waste on people too impatient to learn and enjoy what we fucking made for them.

[Zydalc]

Or, you know, you could just git gud.

Definitely not a massive insult to us devs or anything when players would rather cheat their way to victory before actually earning it at least once.

This is just another nail in the coffin as to why I'm encoding the fuck out of all of Umbra's data, so all our hard work doesn't go to waste on people too impatient to learn and enjoy what we fucking made for them.

This is where the main problem lies with that type of thinking, forcing players to play a certain way just makes you into a asshole and a elitist.

It's not like everyone here is a expert player around these parts and you're simply alienating them by leaving them out and throwing them under the bus by sending a message that "This game is for elites only and if you can't beat it then this game not for you and play something else lol" which is rather a sign of exclusiveness.

Thing is people use cheats is because not all of us have the patience going through all that tedious trouble and they just want to see the end of the game and not only that, they just want to want to have fun instead of suffering through their first impressons. Tell you the truth I've hardly gotten past the first areas in both LeCarde games and I've already given up knowing that the rest of the game is not only beyond my ability (since it's more about the controls, the timing and sometimes you have to be very lucky) but it's only going to get worse from there. Encoding data like that is just self centered, cruel and unfair which is rather sadistic.

Final of all I hate this "Pure True Gamer" mentality here.

(Final Note: I miss the days where cheat codes used to be more common and easily available (and plus more open) but nowadays they're pretty much nonexistent to make way for achievements except for certain Action-RPG games).

[Dracula9]

Hahaha, you seem to have a wrong impression. So let me enlighten you.

-All the countless hours of debate and deliberation and design planning, from what enemies are in what rooms to where we place upgrades and items, and how frequently they show up.

-All the balancing of what ability or item is acquired when, what it does, where it's useful and when, and how that affects progression and backtracking and balancing elsewhere in the game.

-All the work of data structuring for ability and item progression.

All of that and more, gone and for naught the instant a player decides to fuck with the save file and cheat their way through.

Call it elitism or whatever the fuck else you want, you're disgustingly wrong all the same.

I couldn't care less what players do if they've beaten the thing already. All's fair game after that. I'll cheat my ass off for fun and some good laughs--after I've finished the title fairly and can properly appreciate what it's like having maxed stats and all the gear from the start. I even have cheat and spoof modes in mind for Umbra that would break the game's curve otherwise--not that I expected you to know that, but it just goes to show why making half-baked assumptions about developer intent isn't a bright idea.

But unless a game is so poorly designed and balanced that cheating is basically mandated to succeed at it, players who openly admit to wanting to cheat because it's either too difficult for them (whether or not it's bullshit/fake difficulty or the player's own lack of skill is another matter altogether) or because they're just impatient are disregarding all the work we do because they want to beat it faster and not progress the intended way.

You acting like me, as a dev, being pissed off at wanton and open-admittance cheaters for flat-out stating "I don't want to play the game properly because I'm impatient", is somehow equating to "I'm pissy because you're not playing 'my' way" is unwarranted and rather crass.

Reality check, nothing's further from the truth. That you immediately went on the defensive and threw straw-grasping insults/assumptions says enough about your intentions. You cannot justify your wanting to cheat out of impatience, so you try to turn it around on the people who made the shit in the first place.

What a fucking joke. I've made heated arguments in the name of not forcing players to play a certain way, and you're welcome to check with Plot if you don't believe me.

You are too lazy or impatient (or both, I don't know) to properly learn a given title's mechanics and difficulty curves (once again, whether or not these things are fairly balanced or artificially-supplemented with fake difficulty elements is another matter), so you turn to cheating because you just want to see the ending without having earned it yourself.

Plenty of ways to do this without cheating. Watch an LP if you just want to see the ending.

But don't fucking sit there and make bullshit accusations like you're some oppressed minority against the big evil MLGers (which, spoiler alert, I'm not, but cute assumption nonetheless) who want to be evil bastards.

It's fucking Castlevania, not Dark Souls. The shit's structured to make players think before they act, and punishments aren't nearly as bad. You get a Game Over and lose the stuff you got without saving--it's not like Souls where you lose *everything* and run the risk of losing it for good if you don't get it back. Gold can be refarmed/reacquired, items can be refound, enemies can be slain again. Hardly the stuff of nightmares, and LC and LC2 kicked my ass more times than I care to admit (one such occasion back in LC1 instigated a screen punch, even, so don't sit there and talk to me like I don't know what gamer rage feels like). Don't see me cheating my way through it.

If you would rather cheat than actually improve at the game's mechanics, then just as you have every right to play however you want, I too have every right to tell you to git gud. And that means exactly what it says on the tin--"get good." Play, fuck up, think, learn, improve, repeat. This is how it was for years and years before easy editing and hacking became laymanized, and nobody called the devs evil or cruel for it (generally-speaking). And yes, I'm acutely aware of "git gud"'s meme status as a sign of Dark Souls elitism, but no, that's not its perpetual state of being. You wouldn't throw a fit if your boss told you to get good at parts of your job you weren't very good at, so I'm sure you can understand the difference in how the phrase can be used.

You want to cheat because you're impatient, lazy, incompetent, or something in-between. You've admitted this much already.

As someone who spends more hours and work and forethought into design that your mind can even fucking fathom (did you know that for every progress report post that goes into the Umbra thread, there are weeks and months of discussion, debate, argument, and concessions for the features you see? Or did you just assume it magically happened overnight and took no work at all?), this is more or less the equivalent of setting your own house on fire to collect the insurance and buy a new house because you didn't want to fix the plumbing in the old one. If I'm gonna devote years of my life to making something for people to enjoy, then I have every right to take countermeasures against those would would wantonly disregard all the work that went into it because they're too fucking impatient to actually experience the full product.

So go on, you self-righteous fuck. Call me whatever you please. Make your baseless insults and "arguments." All it does is solidify my reasons for protecting my work from people who don't even value it or the efforts that created it. And if something as small as save file protection bothers you, you're really gonna hate the other antihacking measures I have planned (though none are set in stone).

But while you're free to do whatever you please, if you can't understand why a creator would have a problem with people happily breaking into their shit because they want to play it the easy way and disregard all the work that creator put forth into making the thing, then there's nothing more to talk about.

[theplottwist]

Thing is people use cheats is because not all of us have the patience going through all that tedious trouble and they just want to see the end of the game. Tell you the truth I've hardly gotten past the first areas in both LeCarde games and I've already given up knowing that the rest of the game is not only beyond my ability (since it's more about the controls, the timing and sometimes you have to be very lucky) but it's only going to get worse from there.

Are you playing on controller or keyboard? Because if you're playing on keyboard, I'll tell you that this is masochism and you should try with a controller ASAP.

If you're playing on controller, I kiiiiiinda get your point, but I wanna add this game was made with Classicvania mentality. D9 was harsh and I don't agree with the way he's delivering the point, but there isn't much that can be said. Games with a Classicvania feel in mind assume the "get good or give up" instance from the get-go. It's kinda expected from the player to already be familiar with it. If I could give you hints, try using subweapons a lot (because even the goddamn KNIFE is powerful in this game) and try boosting your attack a lot with V.V. powers.

Codes are possible (press "H" three times on the Title Screen to see something mildly interesting) but making one to turn you invincible or something would be up to Mig I think...

Encoding data like that is just self centered, cruel and unfair which is rather sadistic.

I just want to comment on that a bit. LC2 doesn't have encoded save files, so I'm assuming you're referring to Umbra, since D9 mentioned it.

Encoding the save data isn't "self-centered, cruel and unfair". What would actually be self-centered, cruel and unfair is creating a game that only a handful select few can beat with NO WAY to smoothen out the difficulty curve or without providing any chance for the player to actually learn. And EVEN THEN this is still debatable, since we're not exactly considering here the audience intended by the dev for the game. Think "I Wanna Be The Guy" or "I Wanna Be The Boshy". THESE are sadistic games whose most of the fun-factor is derived from watching others play it and get increasingly frustrated and distressed -- the definition of sadism.

Umbra's save is being encoded to the best possible for a couple reasons more than simply "won't allow the player to cheat" reasons. Certain stuff on the save data can actually corrupt your progress entirely or break the game in unexpected ways. It's encoded to avoid cheating to a certain degree too, of course, but most of all, so the player doesn't get to skip all the carefully crafted progression "because they want to see the ending" and ends up breaking everything in the process. If you want just to see the ending, why not watch a Let's Play?

It's less of a "Pure True Gamer" mindset, and more of a "Please, On Your First Playthrough, Try Treating This Game As It Was Designed To Be Treated". It's like the bride not letting the groom see them while they're getting ready to marry: They want the groom to see them at their highest beauty.

But fine, let's take the "Each Player Enjoys The Game As They Want" adage to its extreme: Why should the dev provide tools to suit every single need the player base has? This goes back to my "debatable" above: Maybe, the game not having a feature that suits you, says that you are not the intended audience for this game.

You know, speedrunners derive their fun from beating a given game as fast as humanly possible. And this is ABSOLUTELLY OK. But why should the dev provide Speedrunning tools within the game? If a speedrunner complains the game is not "speedrunnable enough", is he justified in calling the dev sadistic, elitist, cruel and self-centered because the dev is not willing to provide this player with the tools for them to derive their fun with?

[Zydalc]

Here's the thing, there's nothing wrong getting good but when the levels are designed on pure luck, do you think it's worth playing? Since even if you keep trying but there's a point you start loosing your patience and all you want to do is see the next level and you can only try so much it's not worth the trouble anymore.

Also another thing too let's say for instance when you never played Castlevania before and it's in development and you find out about it and now all the sudden you're watching the guy that made it talk to a potential fan/customer who maybe wants a few features, or debug mode in, by screaming at them, would you play this game? Course not and I'm talking about D9's Umbra here.

[Dracula9]

By all means, tell us how to create a fangame with a clear target audience be readily flawless to the point that even non-CV players will be playing it as skillfully as series veterans.

Actually, scratch that. Tell us how to create a game that accounts for literally everybody and ensures that absolutely no one on the planet now or ever will ever have any problems with it.

Go on. Take your time. I'll wait.

Here's the thing, there's nothing wrong getting good but when the levels are designed on pure luck, do you think it's worth playing? Since even if you keep trying but there's a point you start loosing your patience and all you want to do is see the next level and you can only try so much it's not worth the trouble anymore.

Nine times out of ten, what you call "luck" is merely a question of player skill and their ability to decipher the clues for success laid out before them. This then raises the question of whether those clues are even well-implemented, but as I've been saying individual quality is another matter and one that is not currently relevant to the principles being debated.

Also another thing too let's say for instance when you never played Castlevania before and it's in development and you find out about it and now all the sudden you're watching the guy that made it talk to a potential fan/customer who maybe wants a few features, or debug mode in, by screaming at them, would you play this game? Course not and I'm talking about D9's Umbra here.

You're being "screamed at" because you threw out insults and accusations when called out on wanting to cheat. Don't twist the issue here. You get what you give, and if you're butthurt at how I'm addressing you, then maybe you should look at how you're addressing me. The other hundreds of fans following the project don't get "screamed at," because when they offer up feedback and opinions, most of the time they're some measure of considerate of developer positions. Feel free to check the thread or any pages it's been posted/discussed on wherein we devs are directly involved if you don't believe me there, either.

"I want to edit your data files and cheat my way through the game you spent more hours than I can count working on" is not a "feature." It's you wanting to be lazy and skip everything. Again, quality notwithstanding, but there is very little likelihood Umbra will be of poor quality with the amount of forethought, design planning, and slated control testing we have on the table.

Boss Rush mode is a feature. Alternate players and costumes are features. Debug mode is a feature (and, by the way, why would non-tester players even need access to this?). "I want to edit the data and get everything from the start" is not.

Looks more and more to me like your argument hinges on "BUT I WANNA/ BUT I DON'T WANNA" rather than anything cohesive, since a lot of it deals with vague what-ifs and scenarios that are, practically speaking, absolutely impossible to manage completely. But I could be wrong, and willing to be proven such.

But you can (hopefully) understand my believability of that outcome when you've just invoked the "BUT THE CUSTOMER'S ALWAYS RIGHT YOU CAN'T TREAT THEM LIKE THAT" argument to antagonize the dev getting on your case for blatantly wanting to cheat.

[Zydalc]

By all means, tell us how to create a fangame with a clear target audience be readily flawless to the point that even non-CV players will be playing it as skillfully as series veterans.

Actually, scratch that. Tell us how to create a game that accounts for literally everybody and ensures that absolutely no one on the planet now or ever will ever have any problems with it.

Go on. Take your time. I'll wait.

Then again it's also a mistake to treat your game as if it's like the greatest thing in the universe like it's God's gift or something which implies extreme arrogance and possible narcissism.

If you're planning on making such a great game then it must include both new comers and veterans but if you only make it for veterans only then talk about alienation.

[theplottwist]

Here's the thing, there's nothing wrong getting good but when the levels are designed on pure luck, do you think it's worth playing?

Are they, though?

Many people have beaten LC2. Many of these people have developed careful strategies to take out strong enemies, while others have figured out other means (stacking up on potions, buffing Efrain up to ridiculous levels of strength).

Are you saying all these people beat the game on pure luck?

Since even if you keep trying but there's a point you start loosing your patience and all you want to do is see the next level and you can only try so much it's not worth the trouble anymore.

The answer to that is to seek another strategy that fits you. The game is FAR from impossible. If I may be so bold, I'd even say this game pales in comparison to original Classicvanias on the difficulty department.

Also another thing too let's say for instance when you never played Castlevania before and it's in development and you find out about it and now all the sudden you're watching the guy that made it talk like this guy to a potential fan/customer who maybe wants a few features, or debug mode in, and the developer just screams at them, would you play this game? Course not and I'm talking about D9's Umbra here.

D9 is a developer of Umbra, but he does not have the final word on Umbra. I have. Am I screaming at you? So now you have two choices: Listen to the guy who you're understanding as "screaming" or not. Or listen to both.

That said, D9 may not have the final word on Umbra in general, but he does have a very good notion of design and the final word on his area of the project. And his pride as game developer. When you start telling a game developer with a considerably longer experience than you what he should do or not because "you want this and that", you will sound a bit insulting even if you don't mean to. The developer is already thinking of you during the development process all the time. The game is already being designed around its proposal for you to learn it and have a good time with it.

Do you really need the save file's code to be written on a language YOU understand to enjoy the game? Of course not. This part doesn't concern you -- it concerns the devs only. The proposal of the devs is to make you a game, and not to make you an easily editable save file. The chef is not beholden to the obligation of teaching you how to prepare lasagna to accomplish his proposal: Give you a (FREE) lasagna so you can enjoy it. But some people hate lasagna and want the chef to put French Fries in it. He will not, and this is life.

Again, I repeat: I think D9 is being too harsh, and I don't agree with the delivery. But he does have a point: LC2 might just not be for you if you can't surmount the obstacles Mig created and the majority was able to overcome.

[Dracula9]

Nobody's treating anything like a godsend. I'm illustrating the reality of how making a product that pleases everyone is impossible.

Kindly stop with all the rude-ass assumptions.

1-That said, D9 may not have the final word on Umbra in general, but he does have a very good notion of design and the final word on his area of the project. And his pride as game developer.

2-When you start telling a game developer with a considerably longer experience than you what he should do or not because "you want this and that", you will sound a bit insulting even if you don't mean to.

3-The developer is already thinking of you during the development process all the time. The game is already being designed around its proposal for you to learn it and have a good time with it.

1 - More or less. Kind of a pain in the ass to be patronized and antagonized like I don't have an inkling of what I'm doing.

2 - Quite more than "a bit."

3 - Precisely why 2 is more than "a bit."

[Chernabogue]

I finished LC2 on keyboard without cheating or even rebinding controls and I don't consider myself a "good" gamer. Some parts are very hard, but you just need to be patient, learn patterns or just backtrack a bit and buy items.

[Zydalc]

You're being "screamed at" because you threw out insults and accusations when called out on wanting to cheat. Don't twist the issue here. You get what you give, and if you're butthurt at how I'm addressing you, then maybe you should look at how you're addressing me. The other hundreds of fans following the project don't get "screamed at," because when they offer up feedback and opinions, most of the time they're some measure of considerate of developer positions. Feel free to check the thread or any pages it's been posted/discussed on wherein we devs are directly involved if you don't believe me there, either.

"I want to edit your data files and cheat my way through the game you spent more hours than I can count working on" is not a "feature." It's you wanting to be lazy and skip everything. Again, quality notwithstanding, but there is very little likelihood Umbra will be of poor quality with the amount of forethought, design planning, and slated control testing we have on the table.

Boss Rush mode is a feature. Alternate players and costumes are features. Debug mode is a feature (and, by the way, why would non-tester players even need access to this?). "I want to edit the data and get everything from the start" is not.

Looks more and more to me like your argument hinges on "BUT I WANNA/ BUT I DON'T WANNA" rather than anything cohesive, since a lot of it deals with vague what-ifs and scenarios that are, practically speaking, absolutely impossible to manage completely. But I could be wrong, and willing to be proven such.

But you can (hopefully) understand my believability of that outcome when you've just invoked the "BUT THE CUSTOMER'S ALWAYS RIGHT YOU CAN'T TREAT THEM LIKE THAT" argument to antagonize the dev getting on your case for blatantly wanting to cheat.

CW: Victim Blaiming, implied rape, verbal abuse.

Are they, though?

Many people have beaten LC2. Many of these people have developed careful strategies to take out strong enemies, while others have figured out other means (stacking up on potions, buffing Efrain up to ridiculous levels of strength).

Are you saying all these people beat the game on pure luck?

The answer to that is to seek another strategy that fits you. The game is FAR from impossible. If I may be so bold, I'd even say this game pales in comparison to original Classicvanias on the difficulty department.

D9 is a developer of Umbra, but he does not have the final word on Umbra. I have. Am I screaming at you? So now you have two choices: Listen to the guy who you're understanding as "screaming" or not. Or listen to both.

That said, D9 may not have the final word on Umbra in general, but he does have a very good notion of design and the final word on his area of the project. And his pride as game developer. When you start telling a game developer with a considerably longer experience than you what he should do or not because "you want this and that", you will sound a bit insulting even if you don't mean to. The developer is already thinking of you during the development process all the time. The game is already being designed around its proposal for you to learn it and have a good time with it.

Do you really need the save file's code to be written on a language YOU understand to enjoy the game? Of course not. This part doesn't concern you -- it concerns the devs only. The proposal of the devs is to make you a game, and not to make you an easily editable save file. The chef is not beholden to the obligation of teaching you how to prepare lasagna to accomplish his proposal: Give you a (FREE) lasagna so you can enjoy it. But some people hate lasagna and want the chef to put French Fries in it. He will not, and this is life.

Again, I repeat: I think D9 is being too harsh, and I don't agree with the delivery. But he does have a point: LC2 might just not be for you if you can't surmount the obstacles Mig created and the majority was able to overcome.

While you're making some interesting points here, of course I'm only speaking about on the behalf of both LC1 and LC2 and how the game is designed which is rather tedious to get through especially on their first try.

Thing is for example when I play a fan made WAD for Doom for example, I usually turn on God Mode, All Weapons, etc since majority of the fan made wads are just too difficult to complete for obvious reasons if you let the "UV Max" videos fool you.

[Dracula9]

Present a better argument for me to work with if you have a problem with the current, instead of hiding behind buzzwords you don't even understand properly. I cannot work with those when they are misrepresented. You clearly respond better to Plot telling you the same things in a softer tone, so I'll be more than glad to forgive and forget if you give me something I can provide those softer tones to. There's no point in speaking if this remains a trading of insults.