Topic: Where's Dracula XX ??

[knightmere]

In Reply To #1

I've decided Dracula XX is just too cool for IGA to release.

[Kensuke]

In Reply To #31

No. It's redundant and added N-O-T-H-I-N-G to the series. It dropped out all that was awesome about Rondo.

Most of the branching paths.
The selectable characters.
2 out of the 4 girls.
The cinema scenes that advance the story.
Level design that was actually intelligent.
CD quality music.
Most of the awesome bosses.
Shaft became a really retard boss and not a cool boss & plot element.

Rondo has more in common with CV3 (the high watermark on 8-bit) than any game since, which is why it's better. 

Theoretically, it might even be considered a fifth game thrown out of canon because it either directly contradicts what we see in SotN in the worst case or is rundant in the best case.

If you were going to remake DXX you might as well remake Legends, the N64 games, and CotM. That's obviously not going to happen on IGA's watch.

- John

[Wolfman Jake]

Dracula XX is just another version of Richter's story.  Rondo and Dracula XX are just alternate tellings of the same story, much like Castlevania, Super Castlevania IV, and Castlevania X86000/Chronicles all tell the same ONE Simon story.  You wouldn't call any one of those versions of Simon's story non-canon, would you?

[Steve]

But they're not the same story, Symphony very clearly continues from the Rondo version of events.

[Kensuke]

Dracula XX is just another version of Richter's story.  Rondo and Dracula XX are just alternate tellings of the same story, much like Castlevania, Super Castlevania IV, and Castlevania X86000/Chronicles all tell the same ONE Simon story.  You wouldn't call any one of those versions of Simon's story non-canon, would you?

As Steve pointed out, DracXX has some major changes that potentially screw up the plot. Such as downplaying Shaft to the point where he'd be unrecognizable to anybody who hasn't played Rondo, and dropping Maria as a playable character. Losing the two other girls sucks, but isn't vital. Another thing is the level design disregards Castlevania canon in terms of Drac's throne room. All the others going as far back as CV1 have gotten in right: Stairs leading up from right to left to the throne room...yada yada. I don't know where the hell they got those stupid platform pillars from. The Beginning of SotN looks like the ending to Rondo/DXC. The US intro to DXX says that Simon killed Dracula several hundred years prior. I dunno if that's in the Japanese intro, but it's dead wrong.

Yeah...you could maybe claim that the SNES team was using "artistic license"...but why go there, when there's a superior game that gets everything right.

All of the Simon stories I've played are pretty damn identical, or close enough to where it doesn't affect anything. Except for maybe Haunted Castle, which I don't think anybody cares about.

- John

[SymboliC]

I played the SNES game first, and thought it was cool. I didn't think it was a "step backwards" just like the others have implied. The game was "colorful" for me.

..until I played the original ROB. All I can say is ROB is the "real" deal, the level designs are awesome, all the features are more detailed, and is more "colorful".

Then, I went back to the SNES one, then I was like WTF....

[Wolfman Jake]

In Reply To #36

Sure, Dracula XX glossed over a lot of details that Rondo covers, but nothing really contradicts the events in Sympony of the Night, as you seem to suggest.  Richter 1) rescues Maria (and Annette, even though that doesn't seem to really matter in Symphony) and 2) defeats Dracula.  Yes, Shaft doesn't have the prominence that he does in Rondo, but Dracula XX doesn't contradict his presense or level of involvement in Symphony of the Night either.  I can understand you don't like Dracula XX, and I agree that Rondo is the superior experience for Richter's story, but don't let that justify your need to "remove it from canon."

Oh, speaking of Castlevania canon, I thought that the N64 games and CotM were added back into the official timeline as per the pre-order bonus material that shipped last year with PoR?  As far as I know, the only game still outside of canon is Castlevania Legends.

[Long John Silver]

If you check the official records nope. They were just added there by the makers of the bonus, possibly only to promote them since they're still not that old. They had no description at all, plus unlike legends they're both considered sidestories.

Perhaps they were mentioned on timeline just because they were considered side stories from the beginning, unlike legends which tried to add itself as a pretty bad beginning of the series.

Yes, Shaft doesn't have the prominence that he does in Rondo, but Dracula XX doesn't contradict his presense or level of involvement in Symphony of the Night either.

In dracula xx shaft doesn't exist at all. He was completely removed from the game.

The same game also made Maria into Annette's blood related sister, while originally she was a distant Belmont relative.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

I think they are confusing Rondo's "Shaft" with the Necromancer Boss.

The Necromancer also appears in CotM.  Under that cloak (which I will admit is very similar to Shaft's) is a skeletal demon.

Necromancer (CotM):

(resembles Shaft's Ghost)

Necromancer (DXX):


Shaft's Ghost (Rondo):


Necromancers usually have things rotating around them, like Tombstones (DXX), or energy rings (CotM).

Shaft was not present in DXX.  In this alternate story, Dracula himself kidnaps the two girls closest to Richter and decimates the entire village.

I happen to like the art.  It's by Akihiro Yamada and it's darker and has a particular style (we all like different styles, I happen to like that one because of the shades of black used, it's not a common style, plus it resembles older 70's artwork).

More of Akihiro Yamada's work (mostly manga and watercolor stuff, much like Yoshitaka Amano) can be found here:
Anime Paper

[Wolfman Jake]

In Reply To #39

Ah, I did originally think it was a Necromancer in DXX, but given the way people were talking about Shaft's "reduced" role in DXX, I assumed I had been wrong and that it was supposed to be Shaft.  At any rate, Shaft's exclusion from DXX still doesn't contradict his presense in SotN.  Nor does the lack of being able to play as Maria in DXX contradict her involvement in SotN.  The only point that seems to be a problem is Maria's ancestory.  I'm going to assume that the mention of Maria being a distant Belmont relative was in the original Japanese Rondo script, because I haven't come across anything indicating that in the DXC remake.  It really doesn't make much of a difference, and it is a minor plot consideration at best.  It's almost as ridiculous as worrying if Simon's hair is brown or pink in canon.

Also, that's interesting about the inclusion of the N64 Castlevanias and CotM in the PoR timeline pre-order bonus.  I could see CotM still being a "viable" cross-promotion, but The N64 Castlevanias have been out of production for many years, and were made for a Nnintendo console now two generations obselete, unless Konami was thinking ahead, over a year in advance, of releasing those titles for Nintendo's Virtual Console.

[Kensuke]

Oh, speaking of Castlevania canon, I thought that the N64 games and CotM were added back into the official timeline as per the pre-order bonus material that shipped last year with PoR?

None of those three were ever considered canon to begin with. According to IGA, the producers were producing "Gaiden" from the word go. That usually means a product designed to make a quick buck. They were put in the US time line likely because they were known to exist to a majority of people. The fact that no story descriptions were written suggests that even here they have no bearing on the main story arc.

The only one that tried to be part of the main story arc but was retroactively thrown out amidst controversy was Legends. I'm not going to restart the debate, but I rather like Legends for the story and artwork...flawed though the game is.

The same game also made Maria into Annette's blood related sister, while originally she was a distant Belmont relative.

Yes. It's a common misconception that Annette and Maria are related. That plus the "several 100 years" crawl really screws over DXX. It doesn't help matters that Maria refers to Richter as "Onii-chan" in Rondo, but I take that to be a "cute" honorific than anything else.

Shaft was not present in DXX.  In this alternate story, Dracula himself kidnaps the two girls closest to Richter and decimates the entire village.

I always thought the Necromancer boss was a lame ass attempt at Shaft. But if it's not Shaft, then that's even worse. Shaft's antagonism with Richter can play a pretty important role in SotN.

I happen to like the art.  It's by Akihiro Yamada and it's darker and has a particular style (we all like different styles, I happen to like that one because of the shades of black used, it's not a common style, plus it resembles older 70's artwork).

Yamada's artwork is good. But not in that game. For some reason it didn't translate well into spite form and ended up looking like a Marvel Comic Book. I dislike it immensely. Amano's artwork never had that problem (re: Final Fantasy). Possibly because Squaresoft gave their games a more attention instead of rushing a stillborn product out the door. 

- John

[Kensuke]

I'm going to assume that the mention of Maria being a distant Belmont relative was in the original Japanese Rondo script, because I haven't come across anything indicating that in the DXC remake.  It really doesn't make much of a difference, and it is a minor plot consideration at best. 

It's in the Rondo instruction manual. A translated copy of it exists in the Dungeon.

It makes a HUGE difference, because Belmont blood makes a huge difference. That's why the Morris clan isn't as ubber as the Belmont clan. If they ever decide to bring back Maria or one of her relatives in a game, it's something that can be addressed.

Also, that's interesting about the inclusion of the N64 Castlevanias and CotM in the PoR timeline pre-order bonus.  I could see CotM still being a "viable" cross-promotion, but The N64 Castlevanias have been out of production for many years, and were made for a Nnintendo console now two generations obselete, unless Konami was thinking ahead, over a year in advance, of releasing those titles for Nintendo's Virtual Console.

SotN was released two years before the first N64 game. Legends was released one year before the first N64 game. SotN is older, but I don't think it's a stretch to say it's  more well known. Time doesn't factor into it.

I think that IGA will tolerate the N64 games and CotM as side stories, but he was absolutely dead set against Legends rearing its head again. Legends was the only one that he has spoken at great length as to his justification for destroying all records of its existance. First it was because of the characters gender, and after everybody grabbed their torches and pitchforks, he said that it was because it messed up his ideal timeline (whether he knows about the criticism or not is anybody's guess).

I don't buy the "it's an Konami of America invention" crap, because if it was really made out of ignorance they would have put Legends on it. There's a reason why only those three are on there, but at the same time there is no story description.

- John

[Wolfman Jake]

I don't buy the "it's an Konami of America invention" crap, because if it was really made out of ignorance they would have put Legends on it. There's a reason why only those three are on there, but at the same time there is no story description.

- John

I don't buy that either, but your reply two posts up led me to believe you thought otherwise.  Of course SotN is more popular than CotM or the N64 games.  My point was that they weren't included for the sake of popularity or wide consumer recognition.  That's a point you seem to more clearly convey in your reply one post up.  I think the N64 games and CotM have no description on that timeline because IGA hasn't quite figured out yet how to make them "fit."  I recall reading a while ago that IGA was particularly frustrated with those games cluttering up the 19th century with way too many Dracula resurrections.

Also, I still don't think it's important that Maria have Belmont ancestory.  Belmonts are not the only characters in the world of Castlevania who can hold their own against the forces of Dracula.

[Kensuke]

I think the N64 games and CotM have no description on that timeline because IGA hasn't quite figured out yet how to make them "fit."  I recall reading a while ago that IGA was particularly frustrated with those games cluttering up the 19th century with way too many Dracula resurrections.

He hasn't figured out how to make them "fit" because they're not supposed to.

IGA clearly stated that he's not including them in the main timeline because the were gaiden stories according to the original development teams in Kobe. Supposedly, there was going to be a greater Belmont connection in the N64 games (early development stuff mentioned a Reinhert Belmont), but this was later changed. Probably because before IGA, there wasn't really a huge concern within Konami to try and make everything fit, so they didn't even try. In other words, he's not really doing anything different than the original directors intended. They didn't care about canon. So the only natural thing to do is to keep them as gaiden stories. Likewise, Dracula XX and Haunted Castle (arcade) were arguably never part of the time line either. They were just designed to milk more money off the franchise.

Legends was the only one he admits he intentionally redacted. And he's given a couple of differing reasons for this over time.

Unfortunately, prior to corporate reorganization, Nagoya got somewhat of a reputation of being the "shit division" of Konami. God bless 'em with Saturn Symphony, but they just fell short of greatness. Kobe wasn't too far behind either. KCET and KCEJ are and always were the praetorian guard.

The article that describes this is here:

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=4&cId=3152109

Also, I still don't think it's important that Maria have Belmont ancestory.  Belmonts are not the only characters in the world of Castlevania who can hold their own against the forces of Dracula.

Yeah, but if you consider that John Morris died from killing Dracula in Bloodlines it becomes apparent that some can hold their own better than others. Namely the Belmonts and Alucard. Maria also didn't beat Dracula according to the canon ending of Rondo, however, she assisted and held her own quite well in Symphony.

- John

[Quasar]

Of course whether or not they were "meant" to fit into the CV timeline or not, there are very few problems with including CotM or LoD into the timeline.

In fact, there are *no* problems with CotM. It's a minor resurrection of Dracula in a different country in a different castle (which sort of "becomes" Castlevania by virtue of having Dracula resurrected within its walls) by one of his devoted followers, the vampiric Carmilla. He is fought by the Baldwins and Graves (who may or may not have Belmont blood, there's no real indication either way) with a different weapon, the Hunter Whip, whose origin is not explained. It may muddle things up a bit, but it doesn't *conflict* with anything in canon.

For LoD, there are two problems. The first is that the Morrises should have the whip during its time period. Of course this would be simple for IGA to "fix" by saying that Reinhardt borrowed it from them because of some extenuating circumstance. The other problem is that two lines of text in the game (one in the intro, the other spoken by Dracula) state that he has been dead for 100 years. Again, this could be fixed by saying that it's an "error in translation" -- ie, the game, being a fictionalized dramatization of the "true story," contains an error. With those small tweaks, this game too does not in any other way conflict with the current canon.

So you can see why I get aggravated when the so-called problems with these games are blown up to seem like they're simply irreconcilable and must be discarded. It's just not the case