Topic: Castlevania: Lords of Shadow - Mirror of Fate 3DS (Discussion Thread)

[whitedragon_nall]

My biggest concern is the platforming. I hope that if there are enemies that attempt to hinder the player's platforming, they don't take more than 1 or 2 hits to kill. I don't want to have to do a crazy combo to take out a Medusa Head or something.

Also, I'm a little upset that they didn't use Simon's greatest redesign:

[Chernabogue]

I'm happy with 2D combos, but yeah, a Medusa Head should take 1 hit to kill. No more.

[Inccubus]

i noticed there's an owl in Simon's picture.  i'll assume that an Owl is one of Simon's mystical guardians.  can't help but wonder - they're fusing Simon with - Maria?  Simon is the new beast-master.

That was the first thing I thought when I read that in the article.

[Ahasverus]

Also, I'm a little upset that they didn't use Simon's greatest redesign:

Well, if yu are fair, they kept the white fur around his neck 

[Inccubus]

I always saw it yellow...I'm becoming blind   

Looks yellow to me too. But then again RGB screens suck at displaying true yellow anyway.

[affinity]

Konami should hire Bethesda to make an open world Castlevania.  oh wait,  looks like they already are doing that with Dawnguard....somewhat.      The Elder Scrolls V Skyrim: Dawnguard - Official Trailer    Could use a whip, but looks to be way better and more revolutionary than LoS and much better than MoF's concept of butchering Trevor and Simon's subweapons.  I mean come on. Trevor using light/dark magic?  Simon conjuring allies?    What kind of fan would accept that?   -.-

[Flame]

Looks yellow to me too. But then again RGB screens suck at displaying true yellow anyway.

wait, WHO is green themed in SoTN? other than maria.

[thernz]

They think Trevor is. Trevor's sprite has its shadow shift hues to green, but I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be a dirty type of yellow. It isn't actually green.

[Dominus]

Do you mean just abandoning the old storyline or abandoning the old storyline without any vital questions answered and/or important events never witnessed?   

YMMV on "important event" but yes, they did both. Twice in Tomb Raider in fact (Core saga (TR1-6) and LAU saga (TR7, TR Anniversary and TR8)

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

the game was just debuted the other day so there is still a lot we dont know

Correct. I'm just going off what can be gleaned from the article and slight extrapolations.

"occational shifts into 3d" does not mean we will be fighting only bosses from a 3d point of view it could mean during special combo or grabs the game shifts or certain areas are played in a 3d manner until there is concrete evidence of this it cannot be said that bosses are the only part inthe game where it is 3d.

I didn't say -only- bosses will be fought in 3D. I just said bosses will be fought in 3D. Important distinction there. Frankly, any more than that would be even more negative.

As far as fighting is concerned taking the mechanics from los and moving them into a 3d manner doesnt take away from the gameplay given that games like mvc 3 which are technically 2.5d games managed to pull off extreme combos very well, all you do is eliminate the over all "next stage, fight" and make the game flow like a regular 2d side scroller and there you go though there are probably better examples of this.

If you take mechanics from LoS and put it into a 2.5D game, it becomes more like a beat em up (which is what 3D action games are more like in 2D space). I hate 95% of all beat em ups. Sounds problematic to me. It should even concern anyone who wants even a more classicvania-like approach, since classicvanias were still for the most part 2D platformers--not 2D beat em ups.

If you really enjoy stats then yes this would be an issue but not every game has to rely on it.

It's still a negative for me if a game doesn't. Whether the game can make up for that on other issues is another matter.

As far character depth I'm still not seeing an issue since the game was only debuted the other day, Trevor is already starting off with a nice story given it isnt really the same old "You killed my girl you gotta die" revenge plot

I was speaking of depth in the context of the gameplay. The plot of a game like this is only a side issue for me, although it can have some level of importance. Trevor's motivation may be just the generic "Belmont's duty" theme, or "right my family's honor/reputation" given what Gabriel has done to it. Those are a bit less generic than "You killed my girl you gotta die" plots, especially the second, but not really too interesting in and of themselves. But that's too much into speculation anyway--it's perfectly possible that they might do something amazing with the motivation and make it more interesting though, since I don't think anything has been spelled out on that particular issue in the article.

and you are assuming that just because there are 4 time periods means the game will be short when however this game could be lengthy and actually address each character accordingly.

I'm assuming each part will be shorter than if the game concentrated on only 1-2 characters due to resource limits placed on the devs. This is an area where one has to take what they're telling you about the game and make assumptions based on industry norms and typical developer behavior (if one is going to talk about the gameplay at all from the info in an 8 page article anyway).

For example, some people in the past would talk about how Konami should've developed a 30 hour 2D Metroidvania on PS3 with HD artwork, all new enemy sprites, and no asset reuse, but these types of expectations are a fantasy and that just isn't how video game development works. While spreading the game out over 4 time periods and 4 main characters and still maintaining a meaty enough portion of the game for each of those 4 segments to offer a large enough environment for a lot of non-linear exploration isn't as big of an impossibility as that 30 hour PS3 Metroidvania canard, I would still say it's highly unlikely given the scope of a game under modern dev conditions. With nearly every mass market major production of a video game studio, it has set limits it must stay within to remain feasible and profitable. Devs are always performing a balancing act--trying to have as big a scope as they can while cutting as many corners as they can and still putting out something that will cater to enough of the consumer's needs that he/she will come back for more. And it must still cost them a low enough amount of money that they'll still make a tidy profit on it.

Given that kind of reality, I expected tons of asset reuse in Iga produced games, a relatively short play time, and SD sprite/area art. Now from MoF, I expect 4 small segmented environments with a lot of asset reuse or one large environment that's mostly the same in each time period with and only moderate asset reuse. Their budget is probably much bigger than a typical Iga produced game so they have more leeway, but it's not so big that it'll be 4 huge environments with little-to-no asset reuse.

CV 3 had the same deal plus it had multiple characters just this game has them only spread out though out a long time period.

The time periods separating the characters is an issue because one of the ways they'd keep their costs reasonable is by making the 4 environments rather small individually (or they will have a ton of reused assets). Smaller environments in a Metroidvania means less interconnection and less opportunities for nonlinear aspects to play much of a meaningful role. CV3 isn't a Metroidvania, so those concerns don't really apply to it. Take OoE and PoR: Since there are many little maps rather than one big interconnected one, those maps are more linear than one huge one, like SotN/CotM/HoD/AoS/DoS. Frankly, I'd probably hope for tons of asset reuse across the time periods and a huge environment rather than less asset reuse across the time periods and 4 small ones.

So in all I am seeing some concerns not problems. The game has everything a Castlevania really needs, a whip wielding hero an art style which seems more familiar than what LOS provided, Dracula confirmed (none of that bait and switch crap we got from LOS) as the final boss, out door areas as well as the Castle being the final area multiple characters tho play as and from what I have seen a lot of returning enemies. The only difference from this and other CV games is that Dracula is in fact the Belmonts ancestor/father (for Trevor).  If you look at it like this Castlevania didnt have much of a plot, it was a guy with a whip going into a Castle to kill Dracula to be brief. No character depth no love story no revenge just a sense of duty to go destroy evil. Other CV games were pretty much the same.

You have a much shorter list of what Castlevania really needs than I do; most of it seems to be style issues and rather easily fulfilled. Don't you have any gameplay requirements? The game has to play a certain way, etc? You likely have hidden expectations that you haven't thought of. Like if CV had all that you mentioned but suddenly became a FPS, you'd go mad.

Just saying, but if there is no leveling, that will force players to think their way through a tough fight, instead of grinding until they can just beat the boss by mashing the attack button.

It'd be too horrifically boring for me to ever attempt to grind like that, but I don't know why you'd want to deny someone that option if that's how he/she wants to play the game. I don't really think one can easily out-grind a game like CotM or OoE anyway though. The gains given by the leveling system are too slight for how much time you'd have to put in to make the games really easy. Most would probably sooner quit than grind to level 70 to kill some boss midway easily.

A lot of these are non issues.

To you perhaps, not to me.

Classicvania games typically did have a character with only one weapon, it worked back then why wouldn't it work now?

"Working" is the minimum. I'm looking for more than that. Does one weapon type work? Yes. Is it ideal if you like a lot of gameplay variation? No.

Fighting bosses in 3d...?...So?... Makes more an interesting sidescroller that mixes up 3d and 2d elements.

I don't like 3D combat, so I view it as a flat negative. Enemies in 3D action games typically take too many hits and you are very often required to clear entire rooms of them to progress rather than only killing what's directly in your way, making for a more tedious experience than your typical 2D platformer.

Having no depth is a non issue to because you could argue getting new fighting moves with experience points as depth, it's certainly more in-depth then a single slash like the old games.

RPG systems provide a lot more depth than new combos, which is why people refer to hack and slashers derisively rather than as a pinnacle of tactical and strategic brilliance, but actually consider games of the RPG genre to at least sometimes possess a modicum of depth. Not that Metroidvanias are "a pinnacle of tactical and strategic brilliance" either. They're more on the level of RPG-lite in their implementations, but the RPG systems help add a little bit of that to spice up a more typical platformer experience. A sort of miniture injection of depth.

4 characters yes but they all have their own unique abilities that gives you access to exclusive areas, and each character is from a different time period and it was rumored the castle looks different for each one of them. So that part debunks the asset reuse

No, it doesn't necessarily, because for one, "rumored" doesn't debunk anything, and two, you have to interpret something like this out of PR-speak:

"Despite the fact that you'll be exploring Dracula's castle with 4 different characters, you won't simply be retreading the same ground. Changes in the environment over time, as well as each character's specific abilities, ensure that the action stays interesting."

What that means to me is "a large hub portion of the castle will be the same except we'll change up textures on some rooms to alter the mood, add some rubble in certain places, put some diverted paths that will only open in a specific time period or to certain characters, and some other time sensitive changes to specific rooms, like different enemy sets." When interpreting exclusive previews for video games, one has to look through PR spin on potentially negative areas or areas that look unbelievable and assume about a few levels better than the worst to get closer to how the game will turn out.

For example, with Portrait of Ruin, an article hyping it might've said "This game is utterly huge--it's quite possibly the largest Castlevania to date. Four painting worlds, in addition to hidden paintings, and a main castle, covering hundreds of rooms full of enemies to slay." Immediately I'd look at something like that and say "there's going to be a lot of asset reuse, since it's simply not feasible for them to do that fully fleshed out on a budget similar to Dawn of Sorrow's. Since there are painting worlds off from the main castle, the main castle will probably be smaller than DoS' and the painting worlds will be more like mini-levels than anything expansive." Everything in PR pieces has to be taken with a grain of salt because they're intentionally trying to hype whatever game they're covering and make it seem better than the final product will end up being. If Skyrim is going to span 10,000 square miles or whatever, you can bet huge portions of that will be empty without much there besides occasional enemies roaming about and you can bet it'll be full of bugs due to the huge scope being too large to squash every one. If Disgaea is going to offer "hundreds" of hours of gameplay content, you can bet the main game will take the time of a typical SRPG and most of the rest of the hundreds of hours of time will be spent in randomly generated maps killing randomly generated enemies to reach an incremental goal rather than tailor made maps specifically designed to be strategically challenging like the main game. Mind you I like both of those games, but one can get close to the truth about them through the hype if one interprets the PR the right way.

and why complain about that now? It was far worse in the IGA games this promises to give us a different looking castle.

You'll note I said a generic "CV fans" have a problem with it. I just threw that in there because I've seen so many people complain about it on here, so I figured it'd be worth putting down as a problem. I myself wouldn't really complain about it, unless it's done to ridiculous levels and they have a high budget (which CV games don't have). I view asset reuse as a necessary evil for niche games, since they simply can't afford to make the game any other way.

Also, as far as the combat being meant for 3d not 2d, the article mentions that the gameplay feels great, the only negative is the pacing is off.

I don't trust subjective judgments from video game journalists, or anyone really, to represent my own. They might think the gameplay of LoS "feels great" for all I know (given that they're writing for a major video game publication, they probably do). I just look for factual statements from an article and let those decide whether I think I'd like it.

Sorry ^ is all jumbled up but your negativity sounds more stemmed from the fact that you hate mercury steam and less about the actual game.

Oh great, so analysis based on factual statements from the article about what the game is like is met with "LOL YOU'RE NEGATIVE ABOUT THE GAME JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE MERCURY STEAM." Did you pause after writing that for even a second to go beyond that? To think about WHY I don't like Mercury Steam? Do you think I took a look at their name or something and decided it didn't sit well with me, so I have to hate them? Would that make any sense? No. If Mercury Steam made games I LIKE, I would LIKE Mercury Steam. If Mercury Steam makes games I DON'T LIKE, then I DON'T LIKE Mercury Steam. In the end, yes it is about the "ACTUAL GAME."

[Dremn]

They think Trevor is. Trevor's sprite has its shadow shift hues to green, but I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be a dirty type of yellow. It isn't actually green.

I can see why people would think his attire was "green." At first glance it still looks like a dirty yellow to me, but those designers back then knew how to work with color theory. The right palletes of green make it look more like a dirty yellow. That was probably the intention.

[Ahasverus]

Konami should hire Bethesda to make an open world Castlevania.  oh wait,  looks like they already are doing that with Dawnguard....somewhat.      The Elder Scrolls V Skyrim: Dawnguard - Official Trailer    Could use a whip, but looks to be way better and more revolutionary than LoS and much better than MoF's concept of butchering Trevor and Simon's subweapons.  I mean come on. Trevor using light/dark magic?  Simon conjuring allies?    What kind of fan would accept that?   -.-

I don't know, I just see Skyrim with bat-like vampires like the ones you hate so much in Lords of Shadow.
It's great though, and I wouldn't be opposite to the idea of a Bethesda Castlevania, Skyrim with whips sounds too much awesome.

And fear not! I'm sure someone will mod the game and add a whip, yeah! 

MoF's concept of butchering Trevor and Simon's subweapons

what

[Lords of Shitow]

making Simon some sort of gruff shamanistic mountain man actually seems kinda interesting to me. back in the day konami gave him that "barbarian" look but it didn't really make sense given the supposed time period. i think playing off that and turning him into some belmont descendent who's gone off the grid is kinda clever.

[GuyStarwind]

Is this game called Mirror of Fate or Lords of Shadow Mirror of Fate?

[Dominus]

I'm calling it now, one of the remainging two will be a sword character and a magical girl. Also, Its just me or Simon's armor kinda looks like Cornell's?