Topic: Castlevania: Lords of Shadow - Mirror of Fate 3DS (Discussion Thread)

[thernz]

Actually I pointed out that the gameplay is different. Granted, I happen to think it's "better", but that's just me. Fact is, LoS is not a platformer like oldschool Cv's, but is instead an action game like DMC or Ninja Gaiden. Some people don't like action games. The people that I know, that don't like them have basically said that their too complicated to master, and that they therefore suck at them. We all have 'gaming' weaknesses. Personally, I'd love to be good at fighting games like Street Fighter, but unfortunately I'm just not fast enough.

but i like dmc (my baby) and ninja gaiden (partially)

[Vampire Killer]

but i like dmc (my baby) and ninja gaiden (partially)

Then I stand corrected. I mistakenly remembered you mentioning that you disliked action games like DMC in some long forgotten post.

My apologies.

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

I can tell you now, taken to its basest level, Symphony of the Night has some of the most repetitive, beat-em-up style combat out there.

But then why is it more fun? Because there's more to it. The enemies are more complex, the spacial awareness is more important, and even though Galamoth takes over 9001 hits to kill, it doesn't mean that there weren't enemies in the game that look 1 or 2 hits to defeat when you were trying to navigate the castle.

You want to talk about intellectual dishonesty? Comparing the Galamoth fight with healing exploit to normal gameplay in a beat em up seems pretty intellectually dishonest. If you're right there after that acknowledging that it doesn't represent SotN's gameplay when navigating the castle then what's the point of showing it? This isn't the "basest" level of SotN's combat any more than Crissaegrim spam is. It's a specific instance of a strategic exploit of one optional boss fight which some people do because it would be too hard for them to win any other way; the boss specifically has a ridiculous amount of HP because he's a "HARD" optional boss with a flawed design. This is not SotN's combat at its most base level. SotN's combat at its most base level is fighting wargs and zombies in the first hallway in castle.

Nobody is trying to change *whackwhackwhackwhackwhack* into something else, but it is possible to improve it. Saying something isn't an innovation because you can boil it down to a previous iteration of the mechanic in order to prove a point is intellectually dishonest, and so is the assumption that changing *whackwhackwhackwhackwhack* into *whackthwack* dodge *whackhackrisingsmack* will all of a sudden make it any more of a beat-em-up than it already is.

It's perfectly fine if you don't LIKE the deeper combat, heck, millions of people play *clickclickclickclickclick* Diablo, but claiming that it is any more tedious than the combat in AoS or SotN is false.

Oh I see, no dodging occurs in CV1-OoE, and "thwack" and "hackrisingsmack" don't exist in them either. You can't use a glyph union in OoE. You can't use an A button special attack in DoS. You can't break up regular attacks with sub weapon attacks in the classicvanias. HoD doesn't have spell book special attacks. But in the mythical beat em ups "thwack" and "hackrisingsmack" are allowed to occur in addition to "whack" and makes for much deeper and better combat. Thank you for enlightening us.

And for the record, I don't think combo systems found in 3D action games are what make the combat tedious. What makes the combat more tedious is that the regular enemies (key: regular enemies, not bosses) have the number of hits they take inflated above what is typical of a 2D platformer so that the combo systems they have put into the game serve a purpose in the game (the combo system is not the problem itself; it's what it likely indicates about enemy HP levels). It's also that the developers of 3D action games frequently tend to lock rooms with regular enemies in them until you kill every enemy like it's some chore they're forcing you to do rather than letting you kill only what's directly in your way and keep going. The same with screen scrolling stops in 2D beat em ups.

They do these things as conscious design choices because the focus of 3D action games and 2D beat em ups is combat. The focus of 2D platformers is platforming. The focus of 2D platformer Metroidvanias is platforming and exploration. This is why you can skip tons of regular enemies in SotN or AoS but in LoI or LoS they will lock the doors on you a ton of times and force you to kill them all. This is why so many 2D beat em ups refuse to scroll the screen to let you continue on until you've killed a certain quota of enemies. This is why SotN and its ilk are not beat em ups no matter how any one person chooses to fight Galamoth. They are 2D platformer Metroidvanias.

[e105beta]

You want to talk about intellectual dishonesty? Comparing the Galamoth fight with healing exploit to normal gameplay in a beat em up seems pretty intellectually dishonest. If you're right there after that acknowledging that it doesn't represent SotN's gameplay when navigating the castle then what's the point of showing it? This isn't the "basest" level of SotN's combat any more than Crissaegrim spam is. It's a specific instance of a strategic exploit of one optional boss fight which some people do because it would be too hard for them to win any other way; the boss specifically has a ridiculous amount of HP because he's a "HARD" optional boss with a flawed design. This is not SotN's combat at its most base level. SotN's combat at its most base level is fighting wargs and zombies in the first hallway in castle.

Whatever, that video was the first one that came up on google

Here's another:
Castlevania Symphony of the Night Boss Rush: C-RAD vs Gaibon and Slogra

It still illustrates my point. Beyond dodging attacks and maneuvering around the enemy, combat boils down to using a very limited pool of very limited attacks. There is no point in that fight where two of those swords hits being substituted for two comboing sword hits would have fundamentally changed anything for the worse or made it more tedious.

EDIT: I use it because the boss fights are the biggest example of concentrated combat, and because having a combo-system in MoF wouldn't keep medusa heads, nettlebones, and ghost heads from dying in one hit when you're trying to platform. Sure, LoS had more combat than SotN, but that's because it wasn't a platformer like MoF is supposed to be

If anything it would have would have allowed Alucard more openings to attack, and would have allowed the boss battle to be designed to be more hectic and fast-paced because combat wasn't limited to that simplistic sword slash. Also, I just booted up SotN, and axe armors take me five hits to kill at the beginning of the game. That's one less hit than the basic LoS combo which is all the most basic enemies can withstand, which actually takes less time than five short sword hits in SotN, and by the time in LoS when they can withstand more, you have more powerful attacks. There's no point into directly comparing times, as SotN, again, isn't a combo-based platformer, but we're talking about the combat, and how it would be implemented into a platformer, which would make it something different than both SotN AND LoS.

I'll also say it also that combat in SotN can be tedious for a whole other reason, and that's finding attack openings. Sure, that giant sword dies in 5 hits, but between each hit the enemy soars back and enters 10 invincibility frames.

Oh I see, no dodging occurs in CV1-OoE, and "thwack" and "hackrisingsmack" don't exist in them either. You can't use a glyph union in OoE. You can't use an A button special attack in DoS. You can't break up regular attacks with sub weapon attacks in the classicvanias. HoD doesn't have spell book special attacks. But in the mythical beat em ups "thwack" and "hackrisingsmack" are allowed to occur in addition to "whack" and makes for much deeper and better combat. Thank you for enlightening us.

Wow, acid much?

You're ignoring my point, and you're painting me as saying things I haven't so that your arguments sound more acceptable. Please stop.

For one, I was talking about attacking. Combo-based fighting styles aren't all *thwack* and *hackrisingsmack* either. They have jumping, dodging, and blocking too.

For two, I never said the other games didn't have special moves. I will now say, however, that they are not the primary attack function. In any of those games listed, sub-weapons, card moves, and special moves are NOT going to be what you are using 85%-90% of the time you are attacking. You will be using your weapon, and your weapon is repetitive. Hell, LoS has special moves and sub-weapons too, many of them which turn enemies that normally take 2-4 hits and kill them in one, but that's not part of the combo system.

For three, I'm also not painting "beat-em-ups" as anything mythical. I don't particularly like beat-em-ups. The reason I'm discussing this is not because I want MoF to be a beat-em-up, but to say that having a combo system doesn't make it a beat-em up, and if done right, can make the combat deeper than leaving that system out.

And for the record, I don't think combo systems found in 3D action games are what make the combat tedious. What makes the combat more tedious is that the regular enemies (key: regular enemies, not bosses) have the number of hits they take inflated above what is typical of a 2D platformer so that the combo systems they have put into the game serve a purpose in the game (the combo system is not the problem itself; it's what it likely indicates about enemy HP levels). It's also that the developers of 3D action games frequently tend to lock rooms with regular enemies in them until you kill every enemy like it's some chore they're forcing you to do rather than letting you kill only what's directly in your way and keep going. The same with screen scrolling stops in 2D beat em ups.

Ok, so since this started as a hypothetical discussion of Mirror of Fate, let's think about it like this.

You're platforming through a level and bam, you see an a skeleton on a platform. You jump and swing at it, and it dies. You make your way across the platforms, and see a great armor. The great armor is separate from the platforming and is in one of those typical Metroidvania long hallways. Using your combos, you are able to switch between long-range, weaker attacks and close-range, stronger attacks, which will give you more utility and mobility than if you had one sword swing that was always the same angle and length.

They do these things as conscious design choices because the focus of 3D action games and 2D beat em ups is combat. The focus of 2D platformers is platforming. The focus of 2D platformer Metroidvanias is platforming and exploration. This is why you can skip tons of regular enemies in SotN or AoS but in LoI or LoS they will lock the doors on you a ton of times and force you to kill them all. This is why so many 2D beat em ups refuse to scroll the screen to let you continue on until you've killed a certain quota of enemies. This is why SotN and its ilk are not beat em ups no matter how any one person chooses to fight Galamoth. They are 2D platformer Metroidvanias.

I'm a game developer. I know what design choices are, thank you very much.

And yes, you can skip enemies in Metroidvanias, but interestingly enough, that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about the combat.

Yes, you can fly over a great armor, but that gives you no drops and no experience, and addressing nothing about the repetitive, slow, obnoxious task of actually killing one. And Great Armors are not the only enemy in the Metroidvanias that take too many hits.

Again, I never said SotN was a beat-em-up. I said it, and I quote "has some of the most repetitive, beat-em-up style combat out there."

Case-in-point: Mirror of Fate having Lords of Shadow's combat system does not automatically make it a beat-em-up, and it does not mean the game will not include platforming either.

[Neobelmont]

Whatever, that video was the first one that came up on google

Here's another:
Castlevania Symphony of the Night Boss Rush: C-RAD vs Gaibon and Slogra

It still illustrates my point. Beyond dodging attacks and maneuvering around the enemy, combat boils down to using a very limited pool of very limited attacks. There is no point in that fight where two of those swords hits being substituted for two comboing sword hits would have fundamentally changed anything or made it more tedious.

Wow, acid much?

You're ignoring my point, and you're painting me as saying things I haven't so that your arguments sound more acceptable. Please stop.

For one, I was talking about attacking. Combo-based fighting styles aren't all *thwack* and *hackrisingsmack* either. They have jumping, dodging, and blocking too.

For two, I never said the other games didn't have special moves. I will now say, however, that they are not the primary attack function. In any of those games listed, sub-weapons, card moves, and special moves are NOT going to be what you are using 85%-90% of the time you are attacking. You will be using your weapon, and your weapon is repetitive. Hell, LoS has special moves and sub-weapons too, many of them which turn enemies that normally take 2-4 hits and kill them in one, but that's not part of the combo system.

For three, I'm also not painting "beat-em-ups" as anything mythical. I don't particularly like beat-em-ups. The reason I'm discussing this is not because I want MoF to be a beat-em-up, but to say that having a combo system doesn't make it a beat-em up, and if done right, can make the combat deeper than leaving that system out.

Ok, so since this started as a hypothetical discussion of Mirror of Fate, let's think about it like this.

You're platforming through a level and bam, you see an a skeleton on a platform. You jump and swing at it, and it dies. You make your way across the platforms, and see a great armor. The great armor is separate from the platforming and is in one of those typical Metroidvania long hallways. Using your combos, you are able to switch between long-range, weaker attacks and close-range, stronger attacks, which will give you more utility and mobility than if you had one sword swing that was always the same angle and length.

I'm a game developer. I know what design choices are, thank you very much.

And yes, you can skip enemies in Metroidvanias, but interestingly enough, that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about the combat.

Yes, you can fly over a great armor, but that gives you no drops and no experience, and addressing nothing about the repetitive, slow, obnoxious task of actually killing one. And Great Armors are not the only enemy in the Metroidvanias that take too many hits.

Again, I never said SotN was a beat-em-up. I said it, and I quote "has some of the most repetitive, beat-em-up style combat out there."

Case-in-point: Mirror of Fate having Lords of Shadow's combat system does not automatically make it a beat-em-up, and it does not mean the game will not include platforming either.

This is a mouth full e105. But if MoF is close to a fighting game or tales of game then well I'am all game for it 

[Reinhart77]

i wonder if this'll feel like a regular Castlevania game that has the fighting pace all wrong or a 3D Castlevania game with odd restrictive movement?  here's to hoping it'll be a game that will rise above these fears.

[e105beta]

This is a mouth full e105. But if MoF is close to a fighting game or tales of game then well I'am all game for it 

I've always loved Tales combat. After playing it, it's hard for me to play other RPGs that don't use something akin or something just as indepth.

But I don't want the game to be too combat focused. Platforming is a big part of Castlevania history, and it's something that LoS could have focused a lot more on. I want to be exploring the levels, swinging from banister to banister, all the while knocking ghosts out of the air before falling down to the ground and bashing the piss out of an axe armor.

[Neobelmont]

I've always loved Tales combat. After playing it, it's hard for me to play other RPGs that don't use something akin or something just as indepth.

But I don't want the game to be too combat focused. Platforming is a big part of Castlevania history, and it's something that LoS could have focused a lot more on. I want to be exploring the levels, swinging from banister to banister, all the while knocking ghosts out of the air before falling down to the ground and bashing the piss out of an axe armor.

True that cv needs platforming, but I thing I just remembered about the tales of series. Now I know they have it in Vesperia, and Abyss as well and that is the ability to switch from a 2d battle plane to a 3d with a press of a button I hope MoF can do that as well.

For example in vesperia when I play with Rita or Yuri I press some buttons on my controller and I move in 3d that simple.

[e105beta]

True that cv needs platforming, but I thing I just remembered about the tales of series. Now I know they have it in Vesperia, and Abyss as well and that is the ability to switch from a 2d battle plane to a 3d with a press of a button I hope MoF can do that as well.

For example in vesperia when I play with Rita or Yuri I press some buttons on my controller and I move in 3d that simple.

From the information we have, I think the 3D is going to be limited to certain wall-shimmying and other events. I think they're trying to keep most of it in 2.5D

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

It still illustrates my point. Beyond dodging attacks and maneuvering around the enemy, combat boils down to using a very limited pool of very limited attacks.

That tends to depend on the player and the Metroidvania in question. At the beginning of SotN you're a lot more limited in your weapon selection and attack possibilities. By the end you have tons of different weapons with unique hitboxes to choose from with their own unique properties and you don't have to remain using one weapon for the whole game. More than likely you'll go through at least 10 or more as the game progresses. Any one fight might have limited number of attacks unless you're using the Shield Rod, Heavenly Sword or a few other weapons with tons of different attacks or you switch weapons in the battle itself, but over the length of the game you end up with a lot. If you look at any one battle in SotN, it might not look all that varied, but then through the whole game the amount of variation due to weapon changes adds up.

In beat em up combat with the main weapon, the depth is created within one weapon or a small selection of weapons and the multiple ways of using it. In Metroidvania combat with the main weapon, the depth is created by offering a large selection of weapon hitboxes and attack styles that go with those weapons over the course of the game--unless you're CotM or HoD

Also, other games have different numbers of potential attack variations in any one battle without swapping equips--with PoR for example, you have Jonathan's main weapon, his sub, Charlotte's main weapon, her sub, and a dual crush. You could count Jonathan's jump kick and uppercut if you're really a player who wants tons of variation in attacks, but I doubt the typical player uses them that much.

There is no point in that fight where two of those swords hits being substituted for two comboing sword hits would have fundamentally changed anything or made it more tedious.

Correct. What would've made it more tedious is that Gaibon and Slogra would've likely had 300% more HP to allow you to engage in the 'fun' of comboing them for longer periods. If they didn't change their HP though, adding comboing would not have made the fight more tedious.

You're ignoring my point, and you're painting me as saying things I haven't so that your arguments sound more acceptable. Please stop.

That's because you didn't appear to remember potential facets of what could be called "combat depth" in earlier CVs and Metroidvanias, so I merely wanted to insert potential candidates for thwacks and cracks in addition to whacks.

For one, I was talking about attacking. Combo-based fighting styles aren't all *thwack* and *hackrisingsmack* either. They have jumping, dodging, and blocking too.

Correct and I recognized that when your statement was being made (who wouldn't know that?), but I didn't really think it changed much. I mentioned dodging because in your description of beat em up combat you included a "dodge" whereas in the Metroidvania description, it's just whackwhackwhackwhackwhack. Gotta have a dodge or two in there too.

For two, I never said the other games didn't have special moves.

The whackwhackwhackwhack paradigm didn't seem to include it so I took the liberty of mentioning it.

I will now say, however, that they are not the primary attack function. In any of those games listed, sub-weapons, card moves, and special moves are NOT going to be what you are using 85%-90% of the time you are attacking. You will be using your weapon, and your weapon is repetitive.

You're to some extent assuming play styles there. Just because some people may play the game that way does not mean everyone will. With some games we're talking about, though, like the early CVs, you will indeed be limited because of heart limitations and won't be able to play the game any other way. But in something like HoD, PoR, or DoS with easily regained and rather fast regenning MP, you can use those attacks quite frequently. That's one of the things that made HoD's "just the whip" more tolerable for the length of the game--tons of spells that can be used in regular combat.

Hell, LoS has special moves and sub-weapons too, many of them which turn enemies that normally take 2-4 hits and kill them in one, but that's not part of the combo system.

But special moves are still part of the combat system, whether in LoS or in a Metroidvania, so naturally I mentioned them. It's quite obvious that the Metroidvanias don't have a combo system beyond perhaps OoE (and I'm not really sure that qualifies as a full combo system), so comparing the combo system in LoS to the "combo system" in say AoS wouldn't really make any sense.

For three, I'm also not painting "beat-em-ups" as anything mythical. I don't particularly like beat-em-ups. The reason I'm discussing this is not because I want MoF to be a beat-em-up, but to say that having a combo system doesn't make it a beat-em up, and if done right, can make the combat deeper than leaving that system out.

I agree with all of that. It's possible they could include a combo system and have it not lead to MoF being strictly a beat em up or too "beat em uppy." I just pointed out earlier however, that it would be a strange design decision, at least from my perspective, to include a combo system in the game if the enemy HP is still on the level of a typical 2D platformer. Not necessarily something a dev would do in their first Metroidvania. Maybe their 5th or 6th to add variation.

You're platforming through a level and bam, you see an a skeleton on a platform. You jump and swing at it, and it dies. You make your way across the platforms, and see a great armor. The great armor is separate from the platforming and is in one of those typical Metroidvania long hallways. Using your combos, you are able to switch between long-range, weaker attacks and close-range, stronger attacks, which will give you more utility and mobility than if you had one sword swing that was always the same angle and length.

That isn't necessarily what I'm thinking of when I think "combo system." OoE does that, provided each glyph in your left and right hand are different lengths. What I'm thinking of is "You must wail on this regular enemy X X X Y L2 X /\+Y X  for 12 seconds to kill it. Repeat ad nauseum."

Yes, you can fly over a great armor, but that gives you no drops and no experience, and addressing nothing about the repetitive, slow, obnoxious task of actually killing one. And Great Armors are not the only enemy in the Metroidvanias that take too many hits.

I don't so much mind a couple enemies that take too many hits once every 10-20 mins or so. What I mind is being locked in a room with 10 of them every 3 minutes and forced to kill them all. Like I'll fight in the "large enemy" rooms in Metroidvanias most of the time instead of flying over them (they're "in the way" after all), but if most rooms were "large enemy" rooms then I'd start skipping tons of them. Also another type of room I wouldn't want to be locked in and forced to kill every enemy in would be something like the Ghost Dancer rooms in AoS or DoS. There'd simply be no point to it--even if the Ghost Dancers' HP didn't change.

Again, I never said SotN was a beat-em-up. I said it, and I quote "has some of the most repetitive, beat-em-up style combat out there."

If something has beat em up style combat, does that not make it a beat em up? Deep philosophical question there. I lean towards yes, but there might be some exceptions, and obviously it might be a compound genre game like a "Beat Em Up RPG platformer" or something.

Anyway, saying SotN has "beat em up style combat" is still sort of a problem for me because I'd call it 2D platformer Metroidvania style combat. There are no combos, so it loses a few "beat em up" classification points if it doesn't have those, the varied number of weapon hitboxes aren't a thing that beat em ups typically do in their combat systems--typically a character will have a either one or a couple weapons for the whole game and you get to know them well, rather than tons of weapons that are each only a passing fancy. If there is an upgrade system, it typically adds different styles of attacks with that weapon rather than changing to a different weapon. It also has most regular enemies dying in a smaller amount of hits than typical beat em ups which de-emphasizes the combat. There are probably a few other things I'm overlooking in the actual act of combat itself rather than the design surrounding a typical game with that combat style.

And yes, you can skip enemies in Metroidvanias, but interestingly enough, that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about the combat.

That was a necessary extrapolation for my "why Metroidvanias are not beat em ups" dissertation even if you ended up not needing said dissertation.

Case-in-point: Mirror of Fate having Lords of Shadow's combat system does not automatically make it a beat-em-up, and it does not mean the game will not include platforming either.

I might agree, but I'm a bit leery on "having Lords of Shadow's combat system," because I'm not sure exactly of the details of how they'd implement Lords of Shadow's combat system in 2.5D. I'd have to see the implementation in a gameplay vid before I judge I'd think. I'd be closer to agreement if that was "having a combo system similar to Lords of Shadow's."

[e105beta]

That tends to depend on the player and the Metroidvania in question. At the beginning of SotN you're a lot more limited in your weapon selection and attack possibilities. By the end you have tons of different weapons with unique hitboxes to choose from with their own unique properties and you don't have to remain using one weapon for the whole game. More than likely you'll go through at least 10 or more as the game progresses. Any one fight might have limited number of attacks unless you're using the Shield Rod, Heavenly Sword or a few other weapons with tons of different attacks or you switch weapons in the battle itself, but over the length of the game you end up with a lot. If you look at any one battle in SotN, it might not look all that varied, but then through the whole game the amount of variation due to weapon changes adds up.

But that's typical of any gear system, and its separate from the combat system. Besides, all the gear really changes is attack length, speed, and damage, things that new combos in a single-weapon combo system do, and those can be used on the fly.

In beat em up combat with the main weapon, the depth is created within one weapon or a small selection of weapons and the multiple ways of using it. In Metroidvania combat with the main weapon, the depth is created by offering a large selection of weapon hitboxes and attack styles that go with those weapons over the course of the game--unless you're CotM or HoD

But again, those aren't things you're changing up on the fly. It's a conscious decision made in a preparation phase, not a combat phase. Sure, it adds more depth to the game than say Fatal Fury, but that's gear depth. It doesn't make the combat any more complex.

Also, other games have different numbers of potential attack variations in any one battle without swapping equips--with PoR for example, you have Jonathan's main weapon, his sub, Charlotte's main weapon, her sub, and a dual crush. You could count Jonathan's jump kick and uppercut if you're really a player who wants tons of variation in attacks, but I doubt the typical player uses them that much.

I thought PoR made a pretty nice stride in Metroidvania equipment layout, but the magic system didn't recharge so fast that using your main weapon wasn't more economical most of the time.

Correct. What would've made it more tedious is that Gaibon and Slogra would've likely had 300% more HP to allow you to engage in the 'fun' of comboing them for longer periods. If they didn't change their HP though, adding comboing would not have made the fight more tedious.

Judging by the apostrophes you've placed around fun, I think I'm getting to the crux of the issue. You don't like more in-depth combat systems, which is, as I said earlier, perfectly acceptable, but it keeps aspects of this discussion from going past "I think..."

Sure, I don't want a early level fight to take forever, but I personally don't mind extended combat in the case of a boss.

That's because you didn't appear to remember potential facets of what could be called "combat depth" in earlier CVs and Metroidvanias, so I merely wanted to insert potential candidates for thwacks and cracks in addition to whacks.

Even with that, I still don't consider Classicvanias or Metroidvanias to have very much combat depth. Enemies in Classicvanias are merely extensions of the level design, and the difficulty of the bosses is based around your ability to platform and approach a midst patterned movement and projectile spam, rather than spacing, blocking, dodging, and combo management. As for Metroidvanias, with the platforming reduced and the introduction of long hallways and taller, HP heavy enemies, the "how much damage can I output" aspect increased without the actual means of dealing in complexity beyond gear variety. It was most effective to simply equip your most powerful weapon unless it just really didn't jive with your play style. Bosses required less platforming ability, and more "Can you dodge this attack? Good, now lay into me."

Correct and I recognized that when your statement was being made (who wouldn't know that?), but I didn't really think it changed much. I mentioned dodging because in your description of beat em up combat you included a "dodge" whereas in the Metroidvania description, it's just whackwhackwhackwhackwhack. Gotta have a dodge or two in there too.

Fair enough.

You're to some extent assuming play styles there. Just because some people may play the game that way does not mean everyone will. With some games we're talking about, though, like the early CVs, you will indeed be limited because of heart limitations and won't be able to play the game any other way. But in something like HoD, PoR, or DoS with easily regained and rather fast regenning MP, you can use those attacks quite frequently. That's one of the things that made HoD's "just the whip" more tolerable for the length of the game--tons of spells that can be used in regular combat.

I will agree that you could use the extra-abilities more often in the later Metroidvanias, with AoS probably being the best about this, but what it added to the combat was variety, not not necessarily on the fly versatility. You could have 1-2 active abilities equipped at once, and only a few of them weren't "forward ranged attack numbers 1-7" They adjust how you approached a situation, but not the adaptations you could make in the middle of that situation.

But special moves are still part of the combat system, whether in LoS or in a Metroidvania, so naturally I mentioned them. It's quite obvious that the Metroidvanias don't have a combo system beyond perhaps OoE (and I'm not really sure that qualifies as a full combo system), so comparing the combo system in LoS to the "combo system" in say AoS wouldn't really make any sense.

I was leaving them out because leaving them in completely eliminates the "enemies take forever" aspect in LoS which we're discussing. Used properly, sub-weapons and magic special moves allow Gabriel to decimate normal enemies extremely quickly.

I agree with all of that. It's possible they could include a combo system and have it not lead to MoF being strictly a beat em up or too "beat em uppy." I just pointed out earlier however, that it would be a strange design decision, at least from my perspective, to include a combo system in the game if the enemy HP is still on the level of a typical 2D platformer. Not necessarily something a dev would do in their first Metroidvania. Maybe their 5th or 6th to add variation.

The HP wouldn't still be on the level of a typical 2D platformer, but it wouldn't be to the "is this still going on?" extent of Devil May Cry, to give a 3D example.

Though thinking about it now, in the first 2D beat-em-up that comes to my mind, X-Men, enemies went down fairly fast. That diidn't make the combat any less simplistic, but compared to most of today's 3D action games, the enemies died relatively quickly.

That isn't necessarily what I'm thinking of when I think "combo system." OoE does that, provided each glyph in your left and right hand are different lengths. What I'm thinking of is "You must wail on this regular enemy X X X Y L2 X /\+Y X  for 12 seconds to kill it. Repeat ad nauseum."

That's not really an accurate reflection of LoS's combat beyond the stronger enemies and boss battles, and even the stronger enemies start going down quick once your comboing gets better. But then again, like I said earlier, it sounds like you don't enjoy 3D action combat.

If I wanted to, I could say that, OoE was to "X Y X Y every enemy until it's dead, and do it as fast as possible before it gets to you. Repeat ad nauseum." What made it hard was the relentlessness with which they'd throw things at you.

I don't so much mind a couple enemies that take too many hits once every 10-20 mins or so. What I mind is being locked in a room with 10 of them every 3 minutes and forced to kill them all. Like I'll fight in the "large enemy" rooms in Metroidvanias most of the time instead of flying over them (they're "in the way" after all), but if most rooms were "large enemy" rooms then I'd start skipping tons of them. Also another type of room I wouldn't want to be locked in and forced to kill every enemy in would be something like the Ghost Dancer rooms in AoS or DoS. There'd simply be no point to it--even if the Ghost Dancers' HP didn't change.

Again, the strong enemies rooms weren't that common in LoS, and there were actually a fair few battles that could be skipped if you could pull it off, but even then, LoS wasn't a platformer. MoF should be, so while I suspect there may be a few of those rooms, I can't see it happening often.

If something has beat em up style combat, does that not make it a beat em up? Deep philosophical question there. I lean towards yes, but there might be some exceptions, and obviously it might be a compound genre game like a "Beat Em Up RPG platformer" or something.

Anyway, saying SotN has "beat em up style combat" is still sort of a problem for me because I'd call it 2D platformer Metroidvania style combat. There are no combos, so it loses a few "beat em up" classification points if it doesn't have those, the varied number of weapon hitboxes aren't a thing that beat em ups typically do in their combat systems--typically a character will have a either one or a couple weapons for the whole game and you get to know them well, rather than tons of weapons that are each only a passing fancy. If there is an upgrade system, it typically adds different styles of attacks with that weapon rather than changing to a different weapon. It also has most regular enemies dying in a smaller amount of hits than typical beat em ups which de-emphasizes the combat. There are probably a few other things I'm overlooking in the actual act of combat itself rather than the design surrounding a typical game with that combat style.

I'm not sure if you're trying to make fun of me, I lean towards yes, but no, no it doesn't.

A "beat-em-up" is a game that focuses on literally nothing but beat-em-up combat, like River City Ransom and Fatal Fury of old, and they don't typically have combos. They're "Mash buttons until it dies", which Metroidvania games many times devolve into. Sure, enemies die faster, and jumping and projectile dodging is involved which is the reason why I think Casltevania games are fun. But perhaps my definition of beat-em-ups hasn't evolved with time.

I also still think you're giving the "different hitboxes" too much emphasis on how much they change playstyle, mostly considering how while each weapon is equipped you're limited to 2-3 very similar hitboxes, where the shorter ones are usually the weaker one. Thinking DoS, you've got the sword and the katana, which have the same hitbox, the knives and the fist, which are just shorter sword hitboxes, the spear, which is nice long hitbox, the axe, the hammer, and the greatsword, which all have the same over the head hitbox, and the range weapons, which suck. That's like 3 truly unique hitboxes, 4 if you count the fists as their own.

That was a necessary extrapolation for my "why Metroidvanias are not beat em ups" dissertation even if you ended up not needing said dissertation.

Again, I never said Metroidvanias were beat-em-ups.

I might agree, but I'm a bit leery on "having Lords of Shadow's combat system," because I'm not sure exactly of the details of how they'd implement Lords of Shadow's combat system in 2.5D. I'd have to see the implementation in a gameplay vid before I judge I'd think. I'd be closer to agreement if that was "having a combo system similar to Lords of Shadow's."

It's a fair reservation, though if you can't judge it as not being a beat-em-up before you see it, then you can't judge it as being a beat-em-up before you see it.

[uzo]

So uh, hey guys, how about that whip swinging. That's pretty neato, right? We haven't had that since SCVIV.

It's something... at least.

[Neobelmont]

So uh, hey guys, how about that whip swinging. That's pretty neato, right? We haven't had that since SCVIV.

It's something... at least.

 I like this it's simple and it does not hurt my brain 

And you know what else should happen

"XXX YYY" - Tak Fujii sells Ninety-Nine Nights II at E3 2010

Remember now everyone you'll be sucked 

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

I would rather the enemies have complex pattern, than them having over9000 HP and me having to wail on them.
Patterned enemies and bosses are, after all, a staple of platforming games.


WE DO NOT NEED THIS
IN CASTLEVANIA GAMES

You don't need an enemy with ridiculous HP, just one that has a pattern that doesn't have you going to town on it all the time.

I think that, since Devil May Cry came out, people seem to think that 'ooh big room of enemies' and 'let's juggle them all in the air' is a big WOW factor, but in order for the enemies to still be alive at that point, they had to raise their HP, which means that now you HAVE to do the big flashy combo otherwise you won't get that WOW Fist-of-the-North-Star attack.  It's a huge power trip and I'm not fond of it.

I need my enemies to take 1 to 7 hits.  The ones that take 7 hits should have a block/dodge move.  That's it.
One hit = a bat or a Zombie
7 hits = a Guardian Armor with special attacks and a huge shield to block me from spamming.

You know... like 'Rondo of Blood'.

[Neobelmont]

I would rather the enemies have complex pattern, than them having over9000 HP and me having to wail on them.
Patterned enemies and bosses are, after all, a staple of platforming games.

You don't need an enemy with ridiculous HP, just one that has a pattern that doesn't have you going to town on it all the time.

I think that, since Devil May Cry came out, people seem to think that 'ooh big room of enemies' and 'let's juggle them all in the air' is a big WOW factor, but in order for the enemies to still be alive at that point, they had to raise their HP, which means that now you HAVE to do the big flashy combo otherwise you won't get that WOW Fist-of-the-North-Star attack.  It's a huge power trip and I'm not fond of it.

I need my enemies to take 1 to 7 hits.  The ones that take 7 hits should have a block/dodge move.  That's it.
One hit = a bat or a Zombie
7 hits = a Guardian Armor with special attacks and a huge shield to block me from spamming.

You know... like 'Rondo of Blood'.

For some reason after reading this Richter vs Galamoth with no sub weapon entered my mind how long that match was when I did it