Topic: AOS or DOS?

[zangetsu468]

Get it. Maybe I needed more research on it. Sorry for underestimating u VK
However, this bring up to:
If VK was still powerful, how could Julius lose to Dario? I no its repetitive but I seek explanation plz!

It's been since DOS was released that I've played it so I don't have every single detail fresh. However, the thing is - and this is the difference between AOS and DOS - that Julius could not seal the creatures the way that Soma could. Julius mentions to Soma that (canonically) he could destroy the monsters to the point where they couldn't regenerate. Although a normal person would not be supposed to be able to do this, Julius can. (The same way he's able to scale the Castle entry in DOS).

The best assumptions are that the VK for most of the sequence of events in DOS (until the Dark Lord candidates start rearing their heads), the VK's rage(latent power) was quite possibly
surpressed. This would have made it extremely difficult for Julius to destroy any monsters let a lone a Dark Lord Candidate (even with the VK's rage rising) as he could have been worn out from fighting hundreds of other monsters and having to destroy their remains. Soma on the other hand could simply destroy them once and seal them.

It is unknown how long Julius fought Dario for. There are assumptions that have to be made. For instance, the player (as Soma) only seals the bosses, but judging by what Julius says to Soma (from what I recall) in the canonical sense, each defeated creature would be sealed. Given Julius can't do this it takes an incredible amount of power to do what he does. Given Dario's example Julius may have been able to fight on par with Dario but been unable to subdue him and destroy his remains. Therefore after fighting a long arduous battle, Julius couldn't finish the job.

[suomynona]

It's been since DOS was released that I've played it so I don't have every single detail fresh. However, the thing is - and this is the difference between AOS and DOS - that Julius could not seal the creatures the way that Soma could. Julius mentions to Soma that (canonically) he could destroy the monsters to the point where they couldn't regenerate. Although a normal person would not be supposed to be able to do this, Julius can. (The same way he's able to scale the Castle entry in DOS).

The best assumptions are that the VK for most of the sequence of events in DOS (until the Dark Lord candidates start rearing their heads), the VK's rage(latent power) was quite possibly
surpressed. This would have made it extremely difficult for Julius to destroy any monsters let a lone a Dark Lord Candidate (even with the VK's rage rising) as he could have been worn out from fighting hundreds of other monsters and having to destroy their remains. Soma on the other hand could simply destroy them once and seal them.

It is unknown how long Julius fought Dario for. There are assumptions that have to be made. For instance, the player (as Soma) only seals the bosses, but judging by what Julius says to Soma (from what I recall) in the canonical sense, each defeated creature would be sealed. Given Julius can't do this it takes an incredible amount of power to do what he does. Given Dario's example Julius may have been able to fight on par with Dario but been unable to subdue him and destroy his remains. Therefore after fighting a long arduous battle, Julius couldn't finish the job.

Indeed. Even Simon Belmont can't do something of that scale. But I think that scene was unnecessary. If the mean was to make Dario look strong, maybe Dario could come and taunt Soma and teleport away. I doesn't make any sense, but better then seeing our kickass Belmont gets beaten. That was, I think was kind of insult to the Belmont clan, which is officially the strongest of Vampire hunters. Should have done something else than that.

[zangetsu468]

Indeed. Even Simon Belmont can't do something of that scale. But I think that scene was unnecessary. If the mean was to make Dario look strong, maybe Dario could come and taunt Soma and teleport away. I doesn't make any sense, but better then seeing our kickass Belmont gets beaten. That was, I think was kind of insult to the Belmont clan, which is officially the strongest of Vampire hunters. Should have done something else than that.

I grant you that's a matter of opinion which I'm sure some people would share, however, I personally don't rthink that's what was intended in this scene. Remember the library entry states that the VK powers were effectively "surpressed" after Soma defeats Chaos (although it's latent powers are not gone) yet despite the fact we have Dark Lord Candidates by the handful, there's nothing in DOS, including this scene, which as far as I recall specifically indicating that the VK's powers (rage) has begun flaring up again.

The whole scene imo is to re-emphasise that the quest is a job for Soma. It's debatable who is stronger, but Soma did gift on par (at least) with Julius in AOS and being who he is has capabilities that Julius simply doesn't have. This is important because otherwise the main protagonist should have just been Julius, particularly in AOS. (Julius, in this instance is at a massive handicap).

These are the facts: in AOS Soma accessed part of the Castle that nobody else but himself could, which he needed to do to access and defeat Chaos. In DOS Soma is the only one who can perform the seals which prevents the creatures from staying alive or regenerating. (The bosses get life back if it's performed incorrectly). The Sorrow series is the Soma Show starring Soma Cruz and featuring Julius and co, not the other way around.   

Edit: *"fight" on par with Julius, not 'gift'.... Wtff

[X]

Indeed. Even Simon Belmont can't do something of that scale.

I have to politely disagree. Simon Belmont is essentially Castlevania's Conan the Barbarian (whom simon is based off of in the artwork). And Dario is nothing more then a pyromaniac-happy punk who'd get his s**t kicked in by one of the most manliest Belmont's to have ever walked the Earth.

If the mean was to make Dario look strong, maybe Dario could come and taunt Soma and teleport away. I doesn't make any sense, but better then seeing our kickass Belmont gets beaten. That was, I think was kind of insult to the Belmont clan, which is officially the strongest of Vampire hunters. Should have done something else than that.

I definitely agree with this. There were other ways to make Dario a real threat without having to relegate Julius Belmont down to the weak, middle-aged man stereotype (another reason why IGA's writing doesn't sit well with me in terms of the Belmonts). However Belmonts don't need the VK to do their job, but it makes doing that job easier. They have that mystical power in their blood that allows them to subdue the darkness. The VK is simply the cherry on top of an already epic cake. You'll notice in all the other games that the Belmonts don't just use the VK, they also use basic everyday weapons, like the axe, knife, boomerang (not counting the stopwatch or holy water as those are more magical). These basic weapons shouldn't do squat against the hordes of powerful undead and ancient mystical monsters, but they do. They do because those sub-weapons were being used by a Belmont. A Belmont with a mystic power flowing through his veins that can enhance any basic weapon to harm extra-ordinary threats. There was no excuse for Julius to lose to Dario. It was poor writing that was not thought out as well as it could have been.

[suomynona]

I have to politely disagree. Simon Belmont is essentially Castlevania's Conan the Barbarian (whom simon is based off of in the artwork). And Dario is nothing more then a pyromaniac-happy punk who'd get his s**t kicked in by one of the most manliest Belmont's to have ever walked the Earth.

Chronically, Simon is quite middle of the Belmont tier (Juste, Richter and Julius is stronger), but if I think of some kickass Belmont, I instantly think of Simon. Even if that was not correct in term of chronology, it was kind of emphasis for me. Also, I wrote that in context of 'Even if you are the stronger guy on Earth, you can't fight an invincible enemy forever. You have to lose eventually, unless the enemy's invincibility is gone.' But doesn't change that scene was completely unnecessary!

Also, I think this talk of 'AoS or DoS' veered of so much to 'Julius is weakling?'. So, Enough talk! Let's talk something that relates to the topic!

[zangetsu468]

There was no excuse for Julius to lose to Dario. It was poor writing that was not thought out as well as it could have been.

X, this is why I kept referring to DOS' library that plottwist pointed out long ago. The VK's power (rage) "faded" after AOS even though its latent power did not. However if it's power did not return this is ground enough for him not to defeat Dario (Dark Lord Candidate) imo.

Look at it this way, in comparison to Julius, Leon has mystical blood but couldn't defeat Walter with the Whip of Alchemy, but he could with the VK (optimal rage). It doesn't make him a weakling, it doesn't take away from his physical abilities (in game or other), but he doesn't have the capability.

I see the VK's rage having faded = Whip of Alchemy, and Walter was just a vampire (although a powerful one at that) he was not a Dark Lord Candidate.

So, Enough talk! Let's talk something that relates to the topic!

AOS>DOS 

[suomynona]

X, this is why I kept referring to DOS' library that plottwist pointed out long ago. The VK's power (rage) "faded" after AOS even though its latent power did not. However if it's power did not return this is ground enough for him not to defeat Dario (Dark Lord Candidate) imo.

Look at it this way, in comparison to Julius, Leon has mystical blood but couldn't defeat Walter with the Whip of Alchemy, but he could with the VK (optimal rage). It doesn't make him a weakling, it doesn't take away from his physical abilities (in game or other), but he doesn't have the capability.

I see the VK's rage having faded = Whip of Alchemy, and Walter was just a vampire (although a powerful one at that) he was not a Dark Lord Candidate.

But still, Julius was able to defeat Soma in Julius mode. If the VK did not have its power, Julius would not be able to defeat Soma, who is much more powerful then Dario.

[zangetsu468]

But still, Julius was able to defeat Soma in Julius mode. If the VK did not have its power, Julius would not be able to defeat Soma, who is much more powerful then Dario.

Julius mode is not canon, Julius doesn't seal bosses etc.

You're forgetting that Julius, Yoko and Alucard are all fighting Soma in that mode also, just as Trevor, Alucard, Sypha and Grant are in CVIII - if you want to make that comparison.

[suomynona]

Julius mode is not canon, Julius doesn't seal bosses etc.

You're forgetting that Julius, Yoko and Alucard are all fighting Soma in that mode also, just as Trevor, Alucard, Sypha and Grant are in CVIII - if you want to make that comparison.

Well, Julius mode is like alternative route instead of non-canon. So, it is still a canon, at least I consider it as.

Also, unlike PoR, there is only one hunter at the time, so I can say that if I play only as Julius, Julius alone defeated Soma. It doesn't make sense in form of story, but in the sense of gameplay, it's possible to say that.

[theplottwist]

Well, Julius mode is like alternative route instead of non-canon. So, it is still a canon, at least I consider it as.

Also, unlike PoR, there is only one hunter at the time, so I can say that if I play only as Julius, Julius alone defeated Soma. It doesn't make sense in form of story, but in the sense of gameplay, it's possible to say that.

Thou shall not judge the story by the gameplay.

DOS Julius Mode says Julius is fighting alongside Alucard and Yoko. It doesn't really matter if he was fighting alone, gameplay wise. And it does make sense for him to have company, since the VK is weakened. Remember Aria? He fought Somacula alone in the bad ending, and the VK's power was still full.

You can traverse the entirety of CVIII without ever picking up any partner -- the story is that the four of them destroyed Dracula together.

So, true, in the gameplay sense you can say that. But you can't evoke the gameplay to measure plot feats on most cases (in special when the plot contradicts the gameplay), because you'll end up with a bunch of inconsistencies like the one just now e.g. Julius' VK is weakened yet he can defeat Somacula alone. This is a contradiction solved by the plot, not the gameplay, therefore you're talking oranges and Zangetsu is talking apples.

[suomynona]

Thou shall not judge the story by the gameplay.

DOS Julius Mode says Julius is fighting alongside Alucard and Yoko. It doesn't really matter if he was fighting alone, gameplay wise. And it does make sense for him to have company, since the VK is weakened. Remember Aria? He fought Somacula alone in the bad ending, and the VK's power was still full.

You can traverse the entirety of CVIII without ever picking up any partner -- the story is that the four of them destroyed Dracula together.

So, true, in the gameplay sense you can say that. But you can't evoke the gameplay to measure plot feats on most cases (in special when the plot contradicts the gameplay), because you'll end up with a bunch of inconsistencies like the one just now e.g. Julius' VK is weakened yet he can defeat Somacula alone. This is a contradiction solved by the plot, not the gameplay, therefore you're talking oranges and Zangetsu is talking apples.

I do know that gameplay does not link to the story. But it wouldn't make any narrational sense that a Belmont would be defeated by mere Dario. In LoI, Leon declared: "From this day on, the Belmont will hunt the night forever!" Also, Julius was able to defeat the strongest version of Dracula. Christopher, being a more weaker side of Belmont was still able to defeat Dracula even when his son became a grown-up. Also with Simon in CVII (I'll bring it up later).

About his companions, I think Alucard and the Belnades' are more of helper throughout the quest, rather then part of actual sealing of Dracula. Only Belmont's are able to seal Dracula with full power. And in CVIII, Dracula indeed had its full power. Also notable is that Simon, with a fatal illness and completely on his own, was still able to defeat Dracula, all by himself. So, if a 'chronically weaker' 'dying' Belmont was able to not only defeat, but collect his remains and defeat Draclua alone, I think age is not an excuse to make him lose to a weakling who doesn't even have the full power. I know that Julius would not be able to defeat him, but correct representation of a Belmont power would most likely to lead to Dario's retreat or a stalemate.
Now that I explained that Julius is strong enough to defeat Dracula on his own, I will explain that Alucard and Belnades is not up to the challenge (sorry Alucard ). In both Alucard's appearance with a ally Belmont, Belmont was who was praised as destroyer of Dracula. In SotN, Alucard did not defeat him, but he persuaded Dracula with Lisa's words to make Dracula retreat on his own will. Technically Alucard never completely defeated Dracula on his own. Also, Yoko stated that Belnades fought alongside Belmont, but she never said about Belnades directly destroying Dracula with his complete power on her won. So, my argument is that all other companions in the series might be a great help, but the VK and Belmont(also the Morris') is the main of the show.

[theplottwist]

I do know that gameplay does not link to the story. But it wouldn't make any narrational sense that a Belmont would be defeated by mere Dario.

I mean, I agree with you that it's kinda silly. But, as people told here: Julius has a weakened Vampire Killer, and the demon granting Dario with power is beyond Julius' reach. He can't defeat a demon he can't touch.

Only Belmont's are able to seal Dracula with full power. And in CVIII, Dracula indeed had its full power.

This is incorrect. Dracula didn't possess his full power on Castlevania III and Trevor still needed help. This is confirmed to be the case on Castlevania: Judgment:

Also notable is that Simon, with a fatal illness and completely on his own, was still able to defeat Dracula, all by himself.

Explained on the official guide to be possible because Dracula, too, was severelly weakened from being revived with only one of his relics.

So, if a 'chronically weaker' 'dying' Belmont was able to not only defeat, but collect his remains and defeat Draclua alone, I think age is not an excuse to make him lose to a weakling who doesn't even have the full power. I know that Julius would not be able to defeat him, but correct representation of a Belmont power would most likely to lead to Dario's retreat or a stalemate.

Unless the stars are right (Demon beyond reach, Whip weakened) then I think this is debatable.

In SotN, Alucard did not defeat him, but he persuaded Dracula with Lisa's words to make Dracula retreat on his own will.

Also incorrect -- Alucard did indeed best Dracula in battle, albeit a weakened one. On the japanese script Dracula specifically wonders how it's possible for him to be bested by Alucard, who tells him that his will to protect his mother's memory gave him enough strength.

[suomynona]

I mean, I agree with you that it's kinda silly. But, as people told here: Julius has a weakened Vampire Killer, and the demon granting Dario with power is beyond Julius' reach. He can't defeat a demon he can't touch.

This is incorrect. Dracula didn't possess his full power on Castlevania III and Trevor still needed help. This is confirmed to be the case on Castlevania: Judgment:



Explained on the official guide to be possible because Dracula, too, was severelly weakened from being revived with only one of his relics.

Unless the stars are right (Demon beyond reach, Whip weakened) then I think this is debatable.

Also incorrect -- Alucard did indeed best Dracula in battle, albeit a weakened one. On the japanese script Dracula specifically wonders how it's possible for him to be bested by Alucard, who tells him that his will to protect his mother's memory gave him enough strength.

Well, about Dracula's power in CVIII, because Dracula's power is a growing thing. In context of post-CVIII (like SotN), it wouldn't be full, but in time of CVIII, it was his strongest, not being defeated yet. Alucard (post-SotN i guess) meant that he wants to fight the most powerful yet Dracula (most likely to be Dracula in Umbra) because SotN Dracula didn't have complete power.

Yes. I now see that Dracula was weakened as well, but almost dead Simon vs weak Dracula: kinda equal match, huh?

About Alucard and Dracula in SotN, yes, Alucard still defeated him technically, but if Dracula was utterly destroyed, Dracula would not be able to have a conversation with Alucard, probably be destroyed immediately, like how he just bursts into flame in other Castlevania games. Also, it was one of weak appearance of Dracula with irregular revival, not the regular 100-year revival.

[theplottwist]

Well, about Dracula's power in CVIII, because Dracula's power is a growing thing. In context of post-CVIII (like SotN), it wouldn't be full, but in time of CVIII, it was his strongest, not being defeated yet.

This is partially correct. According to the first Castlevania manual, Dracula's magic grows stronger with each revival, meaning that he quite possibly was much more powerful by Simon's time than by Trevor's. But there is a catch here...

Also, it was one of weak appearance of Dracula with irregular revival, not the regular 100-year revival.

Dracula's reviving interval doesn't appear to be a main factor on his strength. The amount of human misery does, actually. IGA explained on an interview that the 100-years cycle is not as important as everyone believes, being humans "faith in God" the main factor. True enough, the manual for the first Castlevania spells outright that the 100-years revival cycle is a myth created by the people. The manual for X68000 goes further, saying that not even these people believe this cycle to be true.

It's possible that the 100 years interval coincided with the amount of time it took for the people to forget their faith and become corrupted, thus bringing Dracula back and spawning the legend.

but if Dracula was utterly destroyed, Dracula would not be able to have a conversation with Alucard, probably be destroyed immediately, like how he just bursts into flame in other Castlevania games

This... Doesn't make much sense. Dracula's been shown to hold a longer conversation after being overpowered multiple times besides SotN. On Rondo he does this, on Curse of Darkness, on Portrait of Ruin. In CVIII it's implied he did this too, since he still was around long enough to speak a curse.

I think the SotN case is just the same. it's only Dracula giving his final words.

[zangetsu468]

I'll keep it short since I'm on mobile.

Don't judge story by gameplay because it's not rational; thank you plottwist.
Furthermore Trevor and 3 other people defeat Dracula in CV III. This mode of switching players is based on CV III. POR is irrelevant because it's the exact same scenario, switch between 2 characters, but canonically all the protagonists are fighting together.

C4 I'm not really fussed if you believe the non-narrative endings to be canon, but there's only one REAL ending for each game. The reason I don't consider what I believe are "non-canon" endings (the ones which don't continue the story) to be canon is that you have to then consider every non-canon ending to be canon. The only time I consider this is if a plot/ narrative/ timeline can actually continue (see my signature) OR when the plot makes sense and stops the player from doing what they shouldn't be able to do i.e.
- Sisters mode in POR is canon, they can't beat Brauner and the story doesn't allow it.
- Richter and Maria mode in POR is non-canon for obvious reasons.
- AOS' Somacula ending is non-canon because then DOS can't happen.

As for my final say on the Julius/ Dario debacle, first of all its canon, so we all need to get over it. Secondly, using a VK with little to zero power(rage) is like using the whip of alchemy. Leon wasn't weak, but he couldn't beat Walter. Death got rid of Walter in 5 seconds, and with the VK at full power, Leon was able to beat Death. The truth and the canon shows us that the VK's state makes a huge difference to the state of a Belmont's power. The VK was left in Castlevania to weaken the entire damn Castle, that's overly substantial power. Facts>emotion when it comes to rationalising narrative.

This brings me to the next point that compared to AOS, the plot in DOS well it sucks. Soma nearly becoming the Dark Lord is a fair plot point, but a lot of the story is reaching; Julius<Dario, The Castle bring a carbon copy of Castlevania (despite people pointing out it may be LOI's Castle), Dmitri and the whole Menace scenario, the narrative was not as good as AOS. They wanted to make another Sorrow title, and however the plot unfolded it would have probably been weaker than AOS imho.