Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Teh_C on July 15, 2008, 08:01:41 AM
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Alright, so I'm a HUGE CV fan and I've played all of the games religiously for 20 years, but here's the deal: what's up with Death? Every time I play one of these games and I come up against the Reaper, I can't help but wonder why he don't just, ya know, kill me. He's usually a really fun and challenging fight, and don't get me wrong, I love the idea of fighting with Death incarnate, but I'd like to see some good explanations from diehard fans as to why he can't simply kill a Belmont like he does everyone else. So let's have it. (I have my ideas too, but I want to see if anybody else is thinking along my lines).
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no one really knows for sure if he is THE death, or just a monster/demon with the appearance and name.
when he took walters soul, he was already beaten down by leon and the vampire killer. that was the only quick death i can recall from him.
besides, no one would play the games if he could make a 1 shot kill every time.
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Because he isn't Death, he's actually the spirit of gravity, arch-enemy of the Belmonts since time began. That's why he tends to throw stuff from above you, and that's why Richter in Rondo of Blood couldn't double-jump after meeting him at the start of the game, but Maria could because she hadn't. Same with Leon [met him late] and Carrie jumping higher than Reinhardt in 64. It all makes sense.
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I don't know about the spirit of gravity argument. I see the line of reasoning, but it seems like a spirit of gravity wouldn't have much difficulty with a mortal, even a Belmont. He could just make his enemy float or crush him to the ground and cut him into a million tiny pieces.
I recognize that there's a little ridiculousness in disagreeing with any argument. They has to make the fight interesting, and to have an enemy that just swoops in and kills without a chance for defense wouldn't be much fun. Just for kicks I want to create a reason why the entity -- assuming it is, in fact, Death -- would be inclined to take his reaper form and actually fight.
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Well, if you're not making silly arguments, you could, I suppose, argue that in the same way as Walter, Death finds his eternal life extremely dull, and so enjoys fighting the Belmonts on their own level. It's also plausible that Death has to follow the rules; everyone has to die of something, so he has to physically kill his opponent somehow before he can take their life away.
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Because if he could kill you that quickly the game wouldn't be fair, case closed. Don't look for any logic or realism in Castlevania, you won't find.
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I'm certainly not looking for realism, and I'm only looking for decent logic that would fit in the relatively illogical world of CV. Everybody knows the elements don't fit together very well, and there's very little continuity between games. And, after all, it's just a game.
Just a little imagination is all I'm asking for, something to give Death a bit more dimension in my mind than Dracs lackey.
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because the belmonts are too powerful. They are actually on the level with the angel of death and his angelic powers don't work (like when he killed Walter, weak piece of trash) so he has to physically kill them to win. (with the help of his little psythes of course).
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i always thought the death in cv is only an avatar of some sort, not the actual "death".
or maybe they modeled him after one of those japanese death gods, dunno since i don't know anything about those
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because the belmonts are too powerful. They are actually on the level with the angel of death and his angelic powers don't work (like when he killed Walter, weak piece of trash) so he has to physically kill them to win. (with the help of his little psythes of course).
See, that's more like it. That's somewhat along the lines of what I was thinking. The way I have it figured, Drac has the crimson and ebony stones, and that gives him the power to order Death around. However, since the Belmonts of some powerful holy lineage, not to mention they have the Vampire Killer whip, Death has a bit of difficulty actually touching them. The only thing I have trouble with is his taking on a physical form. Maybe he has to take on a physical form when he's doing Drac's bidding? Maybe something to do with killing someone when it's not truly their time to die?
I think this argument works well for Alucard, too. Since he's half-vampire, he's immortal, and therefore Death must take physical form to face him.
Feel free to shoot this full of holes. It's just a fun topic to think about
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The way I have it figured, Drac has the crimson and ebony stones, and that gives him the power to order Death around.
ebony stone was destroyed by leon as soon as the battle with walter started. drac only had the crimson stone. that's why after beating walter daylight started returning and mathias escaped, afraid of the sun. if he had the ebony stone he wouldn't have to flee because of the daylight.
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It's probably much like Death in the Discworld novels: it isn't his power to kill people since other things do that, he just deals with the transition from life to afterlife immediately afterwards [Discworld Death uses his scythe to cut the thread joining soul to body]. That would mean he'd have to physically kill someone before his job actually came into play, hence fighting you in physical form.
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First of all, I don't know where the one touch kill comes from, but I think that there is no such thing. Besides, I think that there is more than on "angel of death" and the one in the cv series (Death) is a fallen angel of death that is bound to the crimson stone. Therefore, he has to listen to drac and no one touch kill.
I'm probably wrong though.
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Maybe Death needs to take physical form in order to touch physical beings. Kind of like in cheesy horror films where ghosts go through people because they're not solid. So, in order to come into contact with a solid object, he himself must become solid. However, he is defeated because the power of the Belmonts and the Vampire Killer is greater than the power of any physical being.
Just a guess. I'm just making this up as I go along. ;D
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I gues the only explanation would be that hes death in a mortal form. all he can do in his spirit form is take your soul when your times up but maybe dracula resirects death into his mortal form that way he can do draculas bidding and death only has true power in his mortal form thats my only explanation of it.
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if he had the ebony stone he wouldn't have to flee because of the daylight.
Logically that doesn't jive though, if the daylight was an issue staying inside the castle was his best choice as w/out the unnatural night, daylight would cover the land and kill him when he fled. I don't know if daylight was the problem as he had just absorbed Walter's soul and may have still retained enough humanity to tolerate it. It may have just not affected him either as he was too strong, unless he was weakened like in CIV.
The only thing I have trouble with is his taking on a physical form. Maybe he has to take on a physical form when he's doing Drac's bidding?
I think the physical form thing is so he can damage them, his magic doesn't work against them and what does work like shooting souls they can just dodge so I think it really puts him in a pickle and he chooses to use a physical form so he can end the battle quickly and not risk the belmonts just dodging all his attacks and going on.
Maybe something to do with killing someone when it's not truly their time to die?
I don't think that was an issue though as he killed walter easy.
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I don't think that was an issue though as he killed walter easy.
Walter was already dead. Vampire, and all.
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Walter was already dead. Vampire, and all.
Vampires aren't actually dead, in my opinion. As humans, they are consumed by the curse and then slip into a dormant death-like state where the physical transformation takes place. As for sleeping in coffins, I have no idea.
In regards to Death taking Walter's soul, Walter was pretty much already dead. Not because he was a vampire, but because of the battle with Leon.
As it was mentioned before, perhaps Death can't take someone unless it's their time or they are already dead. While he is called Death, he is really just a collector and guide to the souls of the dead and is currently serving the owner of the crimson stone.
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Bram Stoker coined the use of the term 'undead' to refer specifically to vampires, and since that's actually part of the Castlevania canon, I'd assume CV vampires are undead.
As for mortals, as said before, I'd assume that people actually have to die of something before his powers as Death come into play, hence him needing to defeat the Belmonts conventionally. Walter had already died of becoming a vampire, didn't have a soul anyway, and so was fair game.
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walter also lost to leon and was dying as death came to collect his soul. if he wasn't dying already there'd be no point in telling leon that he'll be able to return.
Logically that doesn't jive though, if the daylight was an issue staying inside the castle was his best choice as w/out the unnatural night, daylight would cover the land and kill him when he fled.
there was one big issue of staying inside the castle. leon.
I don't know if daylight was the problem as he had just absorbed Walter's soul and may have still retained enough humanity to tolerate it. It may have just not affected him either as he was too strong, unless he was weakened like in CIV.
he couldn't have been strong, he just became a vampire few seconds earlier. it took him almost 400 years and many more vampire souls sucked into the crimson stone to reach his status of dark lord and a very powerful vampire.
also in cv4 he was more powerful. i mean, it was his every 100 years cycle resurrection, he's usually at full power during those as far as i know.
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I think death is merely the reaper of souls, taking souls when they are supposed to leave. He attacks in the hopes of bringing them to the time when their souls must leave the plane of existence.
Death can't just take your soul, however, if he cleaves you in half, your soul probably has to leave at that point, leaving it quite open to his job of reaping.
He probably like Dracula because he employs mostly soul-less pawns, and kills lots of people, letting death reap all the souls he would like.
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walter also lost to leon and was dying as death came to collect his soul. if he wasn't dying already there'd be no point in telling leon that he'll be able to return.
there was one big issue of staying inside the castle. leon.
not really, he could assume a wolf, bat or mist, either of those forms would have been fine for hiding until nightfall.
he couldn't have been strong, he just became a vampire few seconds earlier. it took him almost 400 years and many more vampire souls sucked into the crimson stone to reach his status of dark lord and a very powerful vampire.
he said he needed the soul of a strong vampire, hence he gained walter's strength, if walter could take the sunlight he could too.
also in cv4 he was more powerful. i mean, it was his every 100 years cycle resurrection, he's usually at full power during those as far as i know.
I agree
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he said he needed the soul of a strong vampire, hence he gained walter's strength, if walter could take the sunlight he could too.
if walter could take the sunlight he wouldn't need ebony stone to create eternal night around himself.
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if walter could take the sunlight he wouldn't need ebony stone to create eternal night around himself.
not necessarilly true, we don't know anything about him or his motivation for possessing the stone. Vampires can't show their full powers in the sunlight anyway, he may have wanted to just get around that.
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not necessarilly true, we don't know anything about him or his motivation for possessing the stone.
Logic doesn't work like that. If we have no reason to believe it's anything other than the most obvious explanation [that he couldn't function adequately in sunlight] we accept the most obvious explaination is the best one, we don't throw our hands up in the air and say 'good lord, it could be anything!'
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in castlevania vampires die in sunlight.
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In Reply To #26
Dunno. In PoR he dies in the sunlight, but in Cv64 Drac travels even in sunlight. But then again the n64 titles aren't even canon, so I guess you're right.
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in cv64 there's never any sun really, the sky is always behind a very thick layer of clouds. plus dracula himself only appears during the very end of cv64 when he changes into his adult form. the old guy is his servant, and malus is the same as soma.
if you needed to compare, normal malus = soma, evil malus = soma after he finds out his roots in aos and adult malus = soma dracula.
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Maybe the reason it killed him in POR, is because he just got beat down by those two people so he was vulnerable.(I forget the names, and it could be richter and maria).
A strong vampire is, in some tales, merely weakened by the sun. Maybe Drac is so evil, he has a dark barrier around himself, and the sun eats away at it, so he must use some power to maintain the barrier.
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Logic doesn't work like that. If we have no reason to believe it's anything other than the most obvious explanation [that he couldn't function adequately in sunlight] we accept the most obvious explaination is the best one, we don't throw our hands up in the air and say 'good lord, it could be anything!'
what are you talking about? That's just making assumptions. And Vampires aren't vulcans, they don't operate solely on logic. If something is hindering me
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while the game's not canon anymore, rosa tried to commit suicide by walking into a beam of sunlight.
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what are you talking about? That's just making assumptions.
Google 'Occam's Razor.'
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i think it is the actual death, however hes likely bound by the rules he cannot willfully kill someone, he has to wait for them to die, no matter what the belmonts would see him reguardless, lol
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while the game's not canon anymore, rosa tried to commit suicide by walking into a beam of sunlight.
Maybe if they vampires have a shield against sunlight when they have enough power, they can willingly lower that shield, if they felt the need to commit suicide.