Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Malus on April 26, 2009, 09:07:21 PM
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I want some constructive posts here so please if you have nothing constructive than don't post. First for whatever reason I've been racking my brain for the past several years and just can't understand why these games are so hated and despised when they are so different from all the other castlevania games. Their New, fresh and unique compared to the PS2 games even though their a decade old. Their also difficult, which is in part why their replay value is good. Most Fans of the series in my opinion don't like being scared. That's why the 64 vania's are not popular because IMO they are without a doubt the most evil, and scariest games in the series, bar-none. Their evil games, barren, with a coldness and lack of warmth, sense of dread and decay, not cozy and bright and filled with eye candy like Lament of Innocence and the DS games. I also believe that the majority of people have sub-par taste, another reason they aren't appreciated. But mostly because there is something spooky about them that most vania's don't have, most vania's are colorful, not the 64 games. Most vania's have upbeat music, not the 64 ones. There's something about castlevania that for some reason is no longer dark, and full of evil, but is full of eye candy and is all warm and cozy. But the 64 vania's even if they have some weaknesses imo are gritty and full of darkness and death. For example, in the storeroom in the Villa there is a Morbid portrait of some kind of monster or whatever, I think it is of The devil.
just some thoughts, remember these are just opinions I'm not presenting them as anything else, some thoughts would be appreciated.
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I'm actually rather fond of playing LoD once in a while. When the game first came out ie CV64 many people were expecting a block buster but felt let down because the game was moved into the realm of 3-D rather then sticking to the TTT 'Tried , Trusted and True' method. Now that a little more time has passed by and other (not so good) 3-D vania's have been made it is quite easy to accept CV64/LoD. My personal interest in playing the game is mainly just to listen to the music score. There are some really good tracks in the game. :)
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Thanks for the post, very constructive. Yes I agree another thing the CV64/LOD have going for them is a good soundtrack. First most fans on this site, IMO, were bottlemilked and fed as little vania pups on Symphony. I'm not going their, I'll get crucified because I know deep down no matter how bad I want them to equal or exceed Symphony it just won't happen. I know that, however why the PS2 games get the soft landing and if anything are praised and why the 64 ones get crucified that's what I'm I have difficulty with. See, I feel that the last good game released for Castlvania WAS the 64 games. Super Castlevania 4 was great, Symphony IS impossible to find a genuine fault with, the first 3 games were very good, and then the 64 games, after that mostly down hill. I did like Circle of the moon though.
once again, my opinion is that even though those 64 games have some camera problems and may have some graphical slowdown and what not, their still great games because their in many ways very similar to the old vania classics. I firmly believe that once IGA got his hands on the series the series has gone from GREAT to mediocre. The games are rushed out, no vania since the 64 ones are in development for much longer than a year at most, and their all mostly un-inspired trash, In my opinion.
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Another thing. EVERY STAGE in the CV64/LOD IS DIFFERENT!
every single stage in lament of innoncence and curse of darkness are you guessed it, THE SAME!
yet why do those PS2 games which look Plastic looking compared to the more varied textures of the 64 games get the soft landing?
They suck so bad that it actually is Painful for me to play them. I feel pain from the complete lack of any sense of soul. Those PS2 games are souless, FIGHTING games! Yes the fighting is Okay but everything else is completely lackluster save for the music score. And yet they don't get crucified for being at best absolute mediocrity.
imo
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The first 64 game kind of disappointed me. It just felt so incomplete. Then Legacy of Darkness came out, added tons of cool stuff to the camera and overall gameplay including new characters as well as the stories from the first one and blew me away! Legacy of Darkness is great!
The atmosphere is perfected(especially with the addition of the ghost ship at the beginning), the levels are improved(but mostly the first one which used to be incredibly dull and boring to me), the powerups are cooler, you get sub-weapon upgrades, and the graphic quality is much better! Legacy of Darkness is among my favorite games of all time! Its predecessor however, is not.
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Thanks for the constructive response. I understand what your saying in regards to Legacy being an improvment. However, in some ways I still kinda like 64 over it. Reason being that I like playing as carrie and she is more powerful in 64 over Legacy. When you charge and release her orb its homing properties are stronger and more accurate than in Legacy. I also Like the original Tower of Science, and Tower of Sorcery more, but overall I agree that legacy is the better version. But in some ways I kinda like 64 more. Funny but true.
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I could post an entire wall of text as to reasons why I liked CV64/LOD but I could summerize the most important factor into one word: Malus.
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I agree Malus is a very awesome character in castlevania history. It just don't get a whole lot better than that, and who do we have to thank, KCEK, not IGA!
I believe that its time for IGA to take a back seat an let other teams and people make castlevania games, even if they continue to be Castlroids. Malus is an awesome dracula though, I love Reinhardts bad ending with him on the horse, eyes glowing. I wonder how he ends up killing Reinhardt, probably through poison.
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I like this games very much, they are ones of my favorite Castlevania ever.
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I've never quite understood the hate that the 64 CVs have gotten over the years. I liked both games a lot, and I know it sounds dumb, but these two games and the Zelda games are really the only reason I still have my N64 (Mario and Goldeneye were great, but still not enough for me to keep the system by themselves). I thought they were fun, challenging enough, and interesting. Sure, there were some things that could've been better, but I think the good far outweighs the bad here.
I also enjoyed Lament of Innocence. Although going through similar rooms became boring sometimes, I still had fun. But Curse of Darkness is definitely one of my least favorite Castlevania games ever. Although I still want to go back and play it the way I play every CV (finding EVERYTHING), I don't know how much I'll actually enjoy it.
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I enjoyed both the N64 'Vanias. They were unique, fresh ideas at the time, had good storylines and an excellent musical score. I still play LoD every once in awhile. Fun game.
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Big 64 games fan here. I actually like CV64 better in the level design department. Truly, the only thing LoD has over it is more content and better camera control. In terms of the final product though, CV64 feels like a much more cohesive effort.
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In Reply To #12
Big 64 games fan here. I actually like CV64 better in the level design department. Truly, the only thing LoD has over it is more content and better camera control. In terms of the final product though, CV64 feels like a much more cohesive effort.
I believe we see eye to eye here. First let me say that I don't even like the camera in LOD as much in 64 because its too close to the character. In 64 its a little bit further back. Carrie is much more fun in 64, her orb attack is much better. The menu music is better in 64, darker, the overall game feels a bit softened in Legacy, were 64 is darker more uncut.
Level by level, I'd say that the forest of silence has a better vibe on 64, castle wall is same, villa is same, etc, until the duel-tower, which I like more on 64. Tower of execution might win out on Legacy, but I'm not crazy about that level anyway. Clock tower is better on Legacy, imo, but Carries stages are more difficult and better on 64. Tower of Sorcery actually looks better in 64.
Overall 64 is more uncut, and a bit darker, cornell is boring his stages suck.
its all about the whip toting vampire hunter Reinhardt and Carrie, great characters I lean Carrie cause I like her stages more, and she's very powerful in 64, were as in legacy she's underpowered.
to each his own.
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The "Only People Who Agree With me Can Post" thread. What a novel idea.
Lame.
CV64 is a crappy game IMO. Shnider doesn't deserve to wear the secret Simon costume, and those games "shouldn't exist" as far as most people are concerned.
I find it funny how this spoken minority of people who like the 64 titles congregates on forums, making it seems like people actually liked those game.
Oh crap, I forgot to agree with you.
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The "Only People Who Agree With me Can Post" thread. What a novel idea.
Lame.
CV64 is a crappy game IMO. Shnider doesn't deserve to wear the secret Simon costume, and those games "shouldn't exist" as far as most people are concerned.
I find it funny how this spoken minority of people who like the 64 titles congregates on forums, making it seems like people actually liked those game.
Oh crap, I forgot to agree with you.
The entire last two paragraphs here are completely unnecessary. Having an opinion is fine, but keep your flamebait out of it.
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In Reply To #14
Your opinion is respected. Disagreements are far more interesting to me, and you opinion is respected. Maybe I'm over extending the love here for these games. But it makes sense if were writing constructive posts as oppose to un-constructive, which is what yours is.
The reason I titled it that way was to keep it constructive. uzo, most people have bad taste, you would appear to be in the majority. People with good taste, who gave the games a chance, appreciate what KCEK was aiming for. A darker castlevania.
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I love those games, but LoD far more. I play it via Emulation (although I do have the cartridge) via Project64.
I love the Villa and the Tower of Sorcery. The music for both of those, especially. :)
And the Art Tower in LoD with Cornell.
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Tower of ruins dudes! It's all about the ruins. Nothing like a crumbly old castle collapsing all around you while you struggle not to fall through the floor.
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In Reply To #16
And there in lies the fundamental flaw in all of this. They were aiming for a good dark Castlevania. Which, I agree, would be really good. Their concept was fairly spot on, minus maybe the non-Belmont, but that's just my taste.
The issue comes in with execution. They had a great concept, but executed it horribly. Which in turn makes it not a good game.
Most people don't like it because it wasn't executed well. Controls were clunky, camera was horrid, the combat was malformed, and overall just didn't have that same standard of quality and polish the other titles in the series had.
It receives a very small cult status, because some people simply choose to ignore what's wrong with the game in favor of imagining it as if it were executed correctly.
This behaviour is inherently denial. Its not a bad game to you because you realize what it should have been, but even though it isn't what it should have been, you blindly ignore the faults that make it a bad game. As you've said before, it took a few play-throughs to really get use to the camera and controls. That by itself is the mark of a bad game.
So while I disagree that the game itself is of any real quality, I agree the concept they tried to execute was good.
I think at heart that really is the best way I can sum up my feelings toward the game, and the way its fans can defend it so vigorously.
All without flame bait, amazing. I bet you all didn't think I could do it!
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In Reply To #19
Nice, but you should've done that in the first place.
And I disagree in that I believe the merits far outweigh the flaws.
I don't need a perfect game, just an enjoyable one, and I enjoyed those games for what they were, at the time they came out. If something ever achieve 'flawless' status, that's nice, but it's not necessary. I'm not gonna go and knock CV1 because of lack of controlled jumps or lack of backtracking to the previous area behind the door; I understand that this is not a flaw, but a feature in the game.
While I do agree about improper camera usage (it's really not that bad, though, and way improved in LoD), I still think it's an alright game.
But I grow tired of defending with the same lines every time troll behavior about the game shows up.
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In Reply To #19
I don't agree with you completely but I do agree with your criticism partially. It is a broken game. But, when I played it back in 1999 at the age of 13-14 it really pulled me in. I fell in love not with the bad controls, or pain in the neck camera control, or even with the graphics. I just liked the atmosphere and sense of dread and dilipadation that the game presents.
Its probably not as good as I've made it out to be. But I still play it, probably have put in 300 to 500 hours on it, so for me the pros outweigh the cons.
Legacy is 5 steps forward 4 steps back form 64. In many ways though it is better I still lean 64 because I like its forest of silence stage more, and carrie is more powerful.
Overall though I admit that at best the 64 vania's are broken masterpieces. What they nailed imo was atmosphere, mood, tone. It has a coldness that attracts me, I really love some parts of the game, some parts are not so great.
The forest of silence, castle wall, and villa are awesome. The rest of the levels aren't as good, save for the castle center. Imo malus, is really cool, Reinhardt looks like a warrior, even if his belmont ties are weak at best. Carrie is a lot more fun though.
to each his own, your second post was much more comprehensive and understandable. Still if the games were polished up, and re-released, I think we might have something on our hands. Why? Because the art style is spot on, their's nothing in castlevania that compares to the villa stage, not even sotn can reach their. As bad as it may be to you, the villa stage of the 64 vania's are untouched and unrivaled in all of castlevaniadom.
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The majority of fans of the 64 vania's seem to like Legacy much more, but me and another member on here, DoctaMario for whatever odd reasons we've both given really like the original more than the follow up.
who needs cornell? Who needs the ship stage? I can live with a slightly worse camera for a more powerful character, Carrie. Plus the original tower of science is way better, so is the original Duel-tower. And the graphical improvements in Legacy are so minimal. Slightly better quality sound, slightly better looking characters. So what no sub-weapon powerups or main weapon powerups? That makes the game too easy anyway.
this is coming from a fan that might well be unrivaled on planet earth of Castlevania 64. I have the original Millenium Poster hanging in a glass frame above my bed. I've put in more hours and playthroughs than 99% of Castlevania 64 fans or Castlevania players period.
What does that make me, other then a complete jerk for wasting all that time?
a series nutjob probably!
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I guess I too love the N64 Castlevanias more for what they could have been instead of what they were, but despite all their flaws, they were still enjoyable and very playable games. Heck, I swore about as much at Super Mario 64's camera.
But anyway, what I'll always love the game for most is the direction they were headed for. While the series has long since gone the way of elaborately dressed characters with flamboyant attacks and ridiculously overblown dialogs, Castlevania 64 and Legacy Of Darkness went instead for a darker, somber atmosphere that was closer to the Brahm Stocker vampire myth.
It (CV64) didn't always seem to know what kind of game it was, but I liked how varied the stages were. Some concentrated on combat, others on adventure or just plain platforming.
And most importantly, in many places it carried a sense of wonder which was helped by the music which wasn't as elaborate as previous games, but it served the game well.
In other words, even though combat is at the core of the CV franchise, the N64 games made me realize that there is place for much more, but sadly most recent games haven't realized that.
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In Reply To #19
Just relax, man
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In Reply To #24
You just had to add that last little line, didn't you? :P Pretty childish of you.. Just because you disslike Castlevania to N64, doesn't automaticly make you an igavania fan.
Anyway, I'd have to agree with Uzo on this. You pretty much took the words out of my mouth. I think LoD had a great concept and they were on the right path, but they just didn't make it well enough for me to enjoy it. If LoD was remade properly it'd be great. To me, LoD is an unpolished diamond.
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I guess I too love the N64 Castlevanias more for what they could have been instead of what they were, but despite all their flaws, they were still enjoyable and very playable games. Heck, I swore about as much at Super Mario 64's camera.
But anyway, what I'll always love the game for most is the direction they were headed for. While the series has long since gone the way of elaborately dressed characters with flamboyant attacks and ridiculously overblown dialogs,
Castlevania 64 and Legacy Of Darkness went instead for a darker, somber atmosphere that was closer to the Brahm Stocker vampire myth.
It (CV64) didn't always seem to know what kind of game it was, but I liked how varied the stages were. Some concentrated on combat, others on adventure or just plain platforming.
And most importantly, in many places it carried a sense of wonder which was helped by the music which wasn't as elaborate as previous games, but it served the game well.
In other words, even though combat is at the core of the CV franchise, the N64 games made me realize that there is place for much more, but sadly most recent games haven't realized that.
I agree with this post. there is something "more" that these games have than meets the eye. A darker, more sombre approach. Castlevania main characters that are imposing and not dressed like push-overs. A pretty solid music score too, really good and very ambient. I'd say that the games speak to some of us, and some can't or refuse to look at their shinning qualities.
Combat is less refined than the PS2 vania's but lets remember this was the first 3d attempt, and it also came after the highly regarded Symphony of the Night. Maybe because that game did everything right, and the 64 games did a few things wrong, or poorly it got the shaft.
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I loved the N64 castlevanias.. i think the only thing i disliked was some of the areas had no music.
When going through the forest i would have loved to have heard bloody tears or something playing.. some levels or areas had no music playing.
I stop buying newer CV games.. i wont elaborate on why.. but im slowly becoming an old school gamer.. my games have been made.. the new stuff is no longer interesting to me.. same thing with me and TV.. im sick of TV and movies.. cause my TV shows and movies have been made or never will be made.
Same with games.. my games have been made or never will be made.
Now i know how people who were older then me when i was younger felt lol.
But back to C64.. i loved it.. i mean for me it was the last good 3D CV game.. it was 3D without the need of tapping buttons over and over doing combos.. it was straight out with the whip aginst a badguy and only took a few hits, it was a great way of transitioning CV into 3D compared to the other 3D cv games that have come out.
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In Reply To #27
I agree that the one hit attacks worked well for the 64 vania's. The combo system in the PS2 vania's for me was a bit repetitive. It wasn't well done like in Devil May Cry, or Ninja Gaiden.
Your post brings up some good arguments on whether or not gaming has gone down hill. I think its a mixed bag. Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion IMO craps on any other Nex-Gen video game experience. I love the games art, graphics, music and that some of my most pleasurable and relaxing moments were spent playing it. A very immersive RPG! Should be banned for addiction much like Sotn. Oblivion plays like a vacation without typical issues like food which upsets you and other vacation crap.
And Oblivion released in 2006, 07 on PS3. I personally don't watch T.V other than news occasionally. Back on topic, I think that the CV series has gone from good/impressive to okay/poor. The music is the only shinning quality consistent in the CV series, imo.
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I think the repetitive combo system in LoI makes it more subtle of a 'combo' system and hence, more similar to what came before.
I don't like a more powerful Carrie. She wastes all forms of Dracula.
And a drawback of Legacy: Throwing in ALL SIX towers for Cornell needlessly increased the redundancy of the other quests. I think the fact that they called them "Towers" added to the monotony, whereas if they were thought of as different "rooms" it would be normal for Castlevania. I don't know if that makes sense.
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In Reply To #29
Cornell's quest just plain out sucks! He's a stupid character and his story his lifeless. His stages are terrible! Outer wall is okay, but after that the art tower and tower of ruins fail!
I like a powerful Carrie, her basic fighting against enemies is perfectly balanced in CV 64, they messed her up in the balancing department in Legacy.
there is a quality to 64 over legacy that I find lovely, its uncut. its direct, cold and barren. The same reasons why most people hate it, I Love it!
its like silent hill meets castlevania! It really is a broken masterpiece. Though I admit their are many parts where there is no music playing, that kind of adds a charm to it for me.
I know that I'm in the minority, and as far as lament of innocence goes you'd pretty much have to pay me to play that game.
no joke, that's how mind numbling boring and souless that game and its successor are.
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Cornell was just an excuse to make a new game. I did enjoy the power of werewolf mode, fighting the chimera and the new Drac however, and the Art Tower had a couple good moments with the swinging chandeliers on the tight rope and other platforming.
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Thanks for the constructive response. I understand what your saying in regards to Legacy being an improvment. However, in some ways I still kinda like 64 over it. Reason being that I like playing as carrie and she is more powerful in 64 over Legacy. When you charge and release her orb its homing properties are stronger and more accurate than in Legacy. I also Like the original Tower of Science, and Tower of Sorcery more, but overall I agree that legacy is the better version. But in some ways I kinda like 64 more. Funny but true.
Carrie is so broken in the first game. I beat the whole game running around throwing fully charged orbs. I love the 64 CV's, they're great. Also, I think one reason you liked CotM is because some of the same team from the 64 games made CotM. CotM is great. I remember the cutscene where you meet a vampire for the first time, I think in the Villa being cool as hell and scary at the same time.
One of the reasons I also like the 64 games over the PS2 one's because the 64 games have more platforming elements that were really interesting and fun. I remember LoI having *some* platform elements but their weren't that many, I mostly remember beautiful areas and mostly square/rectangle rooms. I haven't played the game in a long time though, and I personally only played CoD for 10 mintues then stopped cause I thought it was garbage.
I'm gonna hit up this pawn shop I know where they always have PS1/64/SNES games, I hope to find CV64 or LoD there sometime.
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In Reply To #32
Carrie is so broken in the first game. I beat the whole game running around throwing fully charged orbs. I love the 64 CV's, they're great. Also, I think one reason you liked CotM is because some of the same team from the 64 games made CotM. CotM is great. I remember the cutscene where you meet a vampire for the first time, I think in the Villa being cool as hell and scary at the same time.
For you Carrie is broken in the first game, for me she was extremely powerful and than weakened in legacy. I didn't know that some of the members from KCEK on 64 worked on circle.
I don't think Lament of innocence is particularly charming or beautiful, it does have some nice music however. I'm a CV 64 guy over Legacy and there is another big 64 fan on here with very high post counts, DoctaMario, who pretty much agrees with me that 64 feels better overall.
They just added so much useless crap in legacy! It was 5 steps forward 4 and a half steps back. I'll take the original Forest of Silence, Tower of Science, Duel tower, and Tower of Sorcery any day over the ship stage, new forest of silence, and the remakes of the above mentioned stages.
Plus I like the menu music more in 64, it just felt like they softened the game up in Legacy and 64 has a slightly darker more barren quality that I enjoy.
I personally don't mined being in the minority when it comes to opinions.
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Isn't it a bit too barren though? Castlevania has always been a busy place. I have to say I like that they added a few more enemies. It's hard not to love the ship stage. Forest of Silence is kind of a draw. I feel most of the remade stages are an improvement. For one, they have bosses.
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In Reply To #34
To each his own. I like the barren it is fine for me, nice and simple and it has a brooding quality that for some reason is missing in Legacy. I think the intro with Malus playing the Violin is more dark than that in Legacy. I also like the plain old brown whip without the stupid whip transformation of chain/electric. It takes away some realism for me. And the power up sub weapons are overpowered. I like the simple vanilla of 64, I feel it has something about it that was taken away in Legacy.
You won't be able to change my feelings because I played 64 when I was 13 and it scared me and I enjoyed it. Another little touch I enjoy in 64 is that in the Castle Wall stage Draculas servant speaks, in Legacy its all just text. In the pal version of 64 its also voiced in the castle keep.
Legacy has some things going for it, but I don't like the intro as much as Malus on the violin. I don't like Cornell, or Hennry. I don't get hard for the sub weapon powerups, or the main weapon ones. I like the plain old leather whip, no bells and whistles. I like the more sinister and challanging platforming in the 64 game, it was made easier overall in Legacy. And the camera in 64 is a bit further from the main characters as opposed to being right behind them. I like that. For me Legacy went 4 steps sideways or backwards and maybe one step forward.
Yes its a bit barren but that adds to the coldness, I don't like "busy" that's why I despise the PS2 games. They have no soul their too colorful and busy to be sinister and dark.
we stand at opposite viewpoints, have different taste, but I respect and understand your view. I just feel different. One mans trash is another mans treasure.
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i personally really liked the music for one thing, i don't care if the 'ambience' made it different from the other games, and as Malus said, that silent brooding quality about the game is really good, it gave the series a fresh view.
it had some really good moments like the
-villa (the music for the villa was like perfect, kind of innocent sounding with an awesome harpsicord passage,)
-awesome bosses e.g. that buffalo thing, death, draculas true form etc.
-the maze (really creepy, you can hear the frankenstein thing running towards you from far away)
-the cutscenes of course were the best in any castlevania up to that time, they added some drama to the story.
-tons of different enemies
really, its hard not to like it. i don't know why lots of people find fault with it. who cares if the graphics is a bit mixed or the controls are messed.
one thing i don't quite like though were the ending cutscenes, they were a bit cheesy.
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In a word, I think most people's problem with the games was simply that they had unrealistically high expectations. Perhaps they were looking forward to another platform-based-yet-2D game like SotN. Or maybe they were looking for what is now LoI and CoD. When the games came out, it shattered their non-reality-based predictions.
Fortunately, those people aren't me! ;D
I love the games; I enjoy LoD a bit more, I'll admit, but there is one thing those games have that no other can:
The Villa.
Easily my favorite level of any level-based Castlevania. Between the super-fitting "Annex of Silent Madness" music, the thirsty Master Oldrey, the first wall-crawling vampire, the plight of Oldrey's wife, the garden maze, the archives, the rescue of Henry, the gardener, and the total mystery of the place.... truly genius.
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So, Carrie fans, who do you like more
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6232/carrie1u.jpg)
Carrie?
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/874/carrie2.jpg)
or Bad Carrie?
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lol hahaha. the bad carrie of course, i mean, such beauty...
yeah, like ArcanisEurydice, i also think that the villa is a total genius level, no matter what anyone else says.
it gives the game an element of unease and suspense that all of the titles really should have.
i mean, there are all these monsters from the deepest pits of hell, and the mighty belmont just comes along and cleans em all up like taking out the garbage?
no i reckon castlevania should scare the hell out of the player, and create a real sense of danger.
anyways i talk too much...
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To this day I still feel that both N 64 titles are the best representation of what Castlevania games at their best should be: Immersive, atmospheric, detailed, mysterious, creepy, and nonstop fun. I can still play CV 64 over and over again (something about the retooled camera and controls of LoD makes it somewhat less enjoyable for me) and not get tired of it, just like Super Castlevania IV and Dracula X. But where this game always shines for me is being the first game to actually deliver a winning and memorable story. Never mind the more recent 3D titles that tried to squeeze emotional pathos from dry, uninteresting characters and shaky plotlines. The N 64 games introduced the best damn storyline and dialogue that a CV title has ever seen, enhanced considerably by the most evocative and emotionally charged musical score in the series.
Yes, Castlevania has rarely been about story continuity or character development. All the more reason why Reinhardt, Carrie, Rosa, Malus, Cornell, and every other player in the Legacy/Apocalypse family shines. Everything else is what haters of these titles care to mention. - Lame 3D, crappy layout, poor platforming, technical glitches, blah blah blatherskite-bullshit. There are things we don't like present in virtually any game out there. Too many fans with a deeply committed sense of what something "should be" are never going to be satisfied no matter how hard one tries to cater to them, and in the end will keep defending their damning consesus of their most beloved passtime to the grave. Thankfully, the rest of us couldn't care less. After all, being able to recognize merit where and when it's due is not the responsibility of the fans, but the privilege of the player. And it makes for much more enjoyable gaming experiences as far as I'm concerned.
...However, there is one small thing I will call the naysayers on where the N 64 titles are concerned. Anybody, including all video game developers who may have stated publically that these games do not fit in to the established timeline are quite wrong. It is one simple line spoken by Dracula in the original N 64 game that ever contradicts the timeline when once fully regenerated he remarks upon the wasted years since his last rebirth. I'm no professional logician, but I do feel that anyone with half an imagination could have managed to get around this moment of in-game melodrama. At least several games in the official series have defied the 100 year resurrection cycle by way of intricit plotting. Could they not just as easily have solved the nagging problem of the lord of darkness running his mouth off? Apparently, much like the most passionate of players who just love to hate the N 64 outings, the current regime in charge of the series preferred to just deny the existence of what I consider to be rare gems in the Castlevania legacy.
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To this day I still feel that both N 64 titles are the best representation of what Castlevania games at their best should be: Immersive, atmospheric, detailed, mysterious, creepy, and nonstop fun. I can still play CV 64 over and over again (something about the retooled camera and controls of LoD makes it somewhat less enjoyable for me) and not get tired of it, just like Super Castlevania IV and Dracula X. But where this game always shines for me is being the first game to actually deliver a winning and memorable story. Never mind the more recent 3D titles that tried to squeeze emotional pathos from dry, uninteresting characters and shaky plotlines. The N 64 games introduced the best damn storyline and dialogue that a CV title has ever seen, enhanced considerably by the most evocative and emotionally charged musical score in the series.
Yes, Castlevania has rarely been about story continuity or character development. All the more reason why Reinhardt, Carrie, Rosa, Malus, Cornell, and every other player in the Legacy/Apocalypse family shines. Everything else is what haters of these titles care to mention. - Lame 3D, crappy layout, poor platforming, technical glitches, blah blah blatherskite-bullshit. There are things we don't like present in virtually any game out there. Too many fans with a deeply committed sense of what something "should be" are never going to be satisfied no matter how hard one tries to cater to them, and in the end will keep defending their damning consesus of their most beloved passtime to the grave. Thankfully, the rest of us couldn't care less. After all, being able to recognize merit where and when it's due is not the responsibility of the fans, but the privilege of the player. And it makes for much more enjoyable gaming experiences as far as I'm concerned.
...However, there is one small thing I will call the naysayers on where the N 64 titles are concerned. Anybody, including all video game developers who may have stated publically that these games do not fit in to the established timeline are quite wrong. It is one simple line spoken by Dracula in the original N 64 game that ever contradicts the timeline when once fully regenerated he remarks upon the wasted years since his last rebirth. I'm no professional logician, but I do feel that anyone with half an imagination could have managed to get around this moment of in-game melodrama. At least several games in the official series have defied the 100 year resurrection cycle by way of intricit plotting. Could they not just as easily have solved the nagging problem of the lord of darkness running his mouth off? Apparently, much like the most passionate of players who just love to hate the N 64 outings, the current regime in charge of the series preferred to just deny the existence of what I consider to be rare gems in the Castlevania legacy.
I'm gonna quote this post just so anyone who didn't read it the first time has a second chance to do so.
And I agree 100%
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In Reply To #36
What was the original planned story?
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Cornell was just an excuse to make a new game. I did enjoy the power of werewolf mode, fighting the chimera and the new Drac however, and the Art Tower had a couple good moments with the swinging chandeliers on the tight rope and other platforming.
No one has posted here in forever so I figured I would bring it back since I really enjoyed the Castlevania 64 games and would like to converse with other fans of them.
First off Cornell was not an excuse to create another game. He was planned in the original as a prisoner of Dracula's (check the first trailer) as well as a Frankenstein chatacter named Collar. Due to tme restraints they didn't make the final cut so they released Legacy of Darkness as sort of a directors cut to include Cornell and Hary to replace the gun totting frankenstein.
I dont see how these games were horrible, it seems most of everyone that posted in this topic really enjoyed them except uzo. I personally enjoyed them far better then LoI and most def CoD. For the time they came out I think they did really well the game play was very similar to the originals Castlevanias, the music was haunting and ambient, and they did something which I believe should have been done which is release it as sort of a survival horror game which if you think about it Castlevania and Ghost n Goblins were the two first survival horror games course thats just my opinion there. Every person that I have physically spoken too have liked these games so Im still trying to figure where all the hate is coming from.
I really think these games should be revisited on the PSP with enhanced graphics and some other extras.
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I shudder to think what the current Konami CV crew would cook up to interweave the 64 outings with the existing timeline. Obviously, they would combine both games into one major package as was originally intended with Cornell, Henry, Reinhardt and Carrie's quests all intact. They'd clearly want to update the graphics and the layout of the game. But something tells me a bunch of remixed Castlevania standards (again) would be used instead of reworking the original scores. On top of that, it would automatically get snubbed again with one major issue for the fans: "Why remake this on the PSP? Why didn't they develop this title for the big consoles?" *s i g h* Clearly, this would take much more fan input than the Dracula X Chronicles could have asked for.
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Outside of SCV4, Simon's Quest, Vampire Killer the original and Chronicles; these games are very much on the right path in being what I like in a CV game. They borrow heavily from the spook factor that the Resident Evil franchise pretty much perfected. The fact that it's making suffers from being made in 3-d gamings infancy doesn't stop the fact that these games have great potential and good creepiness. I would be very happy see them remade along with Simon's Quest and Resurrection if Konami could not come up with an interesting plotline and keep the game dark and frightning. ;Dd
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The only thing i would add to this is more magic attacks for Carrie, since she comes from a great magic users clan, she could make different moves for every situation
For Reinhardt, well he is ok with his long and short range attacks, i dunno what could be added to him.. maybe item crashes? or something to break the habit
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Since there are two different characters, they should be different :)
Reinhardt should be a hardened warrior with whip and item attacks.
Why not have some kind of item mix thing (somewhat like in LoI and HoD).
And for Carrie, lets have her have different elemental attacks, that her family is known for.
Short range fire.
Long range spreading Ice
Homing electricity
And maybe throw in a few more elements..
Charlotte in PoR has a nice collection of magic, why not something like that? (Even though they are not related, as far as I know)
The problem is to make the two balanced enough, so the difficulty is not to one characters favor.
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The problem is to make the two balanced enough, so the difficulty is not to one characters favor.
I agree with the above. However it's possible to succeed without balancing Carry to Reinhardt or vice-versa considering that they have different paths in the same castle. It would just be a matter of tweaking the levels to suit the abilities of the characters at hand.
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