Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Alutwon on October 08, 2010, 06:43:53 PM
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After beating the game last night i was thinking long and hard about what the ending leaves us with. The obvious aside, I see two possibilities for continuing the story with a Belmont as the main character. A.) Gabriel had a son with Marie before her death and B.) Gabriel tried to move on remarried and had a son. After the end of Los or shortly after B he disappears because he can't take being away from Marie anymore and tries to ascend like the Lords of Shadow did to be with her. He succeeds but his shadow half remains with all the pain and hate, still angry because he is without his beloved and thus we have Dracula.
Also I'm trying to figure out how they would get the Axe to work in 3D. I already thought about the boomerang (Just throw the combat cross duh). Just a thought if they were to try to add some things in the sequel.
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Gabriel is not a Belmont by blood. As such, there's no need for him to have children, since we can have actual Belmont warriors (check his character entry).
Yeah I do believe the Gabriel "Dark Half" is the being whom you see in the ending. The real Gabriel probably lived a normal life (albeit a sad one without Marie), grew old, had a kid with someone new, called him Mathias, and died, while his dark half secretly just waited him out.
Then, Dark Gabriel went and stole his precious Ebony/Crimson Stones once Mathias picked 'em up. BwahahahaDraculaTime! >_>
Of course, this is mostly joking, haha.
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I know but it doesn't make sense that they would have a character named Belmont then just make another character named Belmont who isn't blood related. Plus it would be sooo epic if Gabriel's descendants had to fight him. It would be like "Simon, I am your great great great great great great great great grandfather! Have at you!
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(Haven't posted here in *years*. Been lurking in the shadows though...)
Anways, according to Gabe's Bio in the stragegy guide, it is hinted that his actual bloodline is that of Cronqvist lineage. He later chose the surname "Belmont" because of his love of the moutains.
I would predict that future protaganists in the series would have the last name of Cronqvist or Belmont. Possibly both.
An interesting thing to note here is that if Alucard ever shows up in the series, he would not only be the son of Dracula(Gabe) but also part Belmont/(Cronqvist).
One question I have on the post-credit trailer is this. When they are discussing where it is they've been after "all these years"...Do you guys think that this present-day meeting is the first time they've seen each other since the year 1047? Or do you believe that Gabe/Drac & Zobek/Death formed an alliance hundreds of years in the past and had a working relationship as was seen in the "IGA' timeline?
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well Gabe doesnt seem too surprised at the fact that Zobek is still alive, last time they saw each other Zobek was being cooked. Im thinking more like its only been a couple hundred years since they last saw each other? Imo it looks like Gabeula just got resurrected, he looks emaciated and he tries to bite Zobek who overpowers him (another sign that Gabeula is in a weakened state).
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Well, it's possible that the "Gabriel" Zobek knows (the one you play in the game) isn't the Gabe/Drac (after the ending) Zobek meets at the end. That is, the dark Gabriel. If you recall, 'Zobek' gets manipulated and gets nullified or something by Satan. We do not see him die, so he might revert to his regular Zobek guise.
Also, it's REALLY COOL that they meet in what looks like New York. I swear i've walked by a similar church in my NYC adventures.
(http://www.inverteddungeon.com/jorgefuentes/images3/2010-04-24%2015.38.04.jpg)
(http://www.inverteddungeon.com/jorgefuentes/images3/2010-04-24%2015.38.16.jpg)
(http://www.inverteddungeon.com/jorgefuentes/images3/2010-04-24%2015.39.28.jpg)
(http://www.inverteddungeon.com/jorgefuentes/images3/2010-04-24%2015.44.32.jpg)
Randomly gothic pics (of course, these are during the day). ;)
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Now if I had a church like that in my town, I might actually reconsider my religious beliefs! :P
You're right though, Gabeula doesn't show any surprise at Zobek tracking him down, which leads us to believe they've had a much deeper history/relationship together that spans past the events of LOS.
Curious that Gabeula has chosen to "hide" in a seemingly random church as opposed to castlevania itself. Theories on this?
At any rate, I can't wait to see how this all unfolds! We've seen the epic "orgin story" and even a glimpse at the future "end-game" with Dracula/Zobek preparing for Satan's 2nd coming. Everything in-between is just icing on the cake!
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The only sequel idea I have so far for this is kill the shimmying and make the music more fitting for the HORROR part of the game.
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Now if I had a church like that in my town, I might actually reconsider my religious beliefs! :P
You're right though, Gabeula doesn't show any surprise at Zobek tracking him down, which leads us to believe they've had a much deeper history/relationship together that spans past the events of LOS.
Curious that Gabeula has chosen to "hide" in a seemingly random church as opposed to castlevania itself. Theories on this?
At any rate, I can't wait to see how this all unfolds! We've seen the epic "orgin story" and even a glimpse at the future "end-game" with Dracula/Zobek preparing for Satan's 2nd coming. Everything in-between is just icing on the cake!
He might be tired of fighting or as I said earlier he just resurrected not too long ago and needs some time to gather strength
Edit*Just rewatched the cutscene. Gabriel seems to be a little angry once he realizes it is zobek you can tell by the way he grips his chair. which leads me to believe that perhaps he hasn't seen zobek since he betrayed him which is why Gabe still harbors anger towards him. Idk maybe Gabe is the protagonist in the sequel and he has to descend into hell to fight satan or something? I'm not sure how well that would go over.
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This is bugging the crap out of me. How do you get Zobek's part of the mask when you don't even fight or kill him? Plot hole?
I'm guessing Laura will be in the next game since Zobek said that she may yet have some part to play in the story, when we last saw her. I don't know, I kept expecting her to help you kill Camilla or something.
I'm not too keen on the idea of Castlevania taking place in contemporary times, which seems to be the way things are headed. The way Iga did it it was at least sort of out of sight, out of mind.
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I was wondering that myself. Zobek was to be the 3rd LoS and yet Gabe recieves the final piece of the mask after defeating the Dragon? or was it the 2nd Necromancer...Can't remember now.
I'm not concerned or worried too much about the time-setting that the post-credit ending showed. I think it's unlikely that the DLC or even the sequel will take place during present day times, and even if it did, it's doubtful it would take place in such a city like new york or something. It would probably fall back to remote parts of Romania, where neon signs and technology are hardly prevalent, if at all. Regardless of what century it is, forrests, castles and countrysides exist. The gothic atmosphere that we are all fond of in these games will live on no matter what year it is.
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I thought the end set up a pretty clear sequel trajectory. Some time in the present, or near future, or recent past, whatever, Satan's lackeys arrange for his return and Zobek, still alive after however many centuries is all panicky because he's on the shortlist for Satan's revenge. He finds the one person, er...thing, that has beaten Satan before, Gabe, or Dracula, as he now calls himself. He goes to Drac, tells him what's up, and the scene plays out as it does. I don't why people have trouble accepting that this game isn't tying back into the old continuity. This is a new world, with new lore, and any connections to previous games are just in there as nods to the past. If Mercury Steam get to make a sequel, which is anything but certain, I think the last thing they want is to drag the old, convoluted canon into their new series. Gabriel Belmont is likely to be the only Belmont we meet, and I'd be shocked if a sequel didn't involve Drac as the playable character.
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No you're probably right. The more I think about it, the more I say it's pretty likely that we will get to play as Dracula in the sequel. I suspect the DLC we get in the coming months will supply us the chapters that paint Gabriel's fall to darkness, most likely in the form of him ascending into Heaven as the founders did and in turn, leaving his dark side half back on earth, which we will get to play as.
I still would not rule out an "in-between" story to fill in that nearly 1000 year gap though.
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This is starting to sound like Legacy of Kain or Soul Reaver now. Which is.... awesome! :D
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Hoping it leans more towards soul reaver tbh.
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I would like to see a new protagonist take up the Belmont surname since Gabriel is now Dracula. Trevor? Simon? Richter? Someone new? Personally, I want to see Simon become the new protag.
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I hope that if a sequel is made they dont make the setting in the future like the ending suggests, we have almost a 1000 years from each point were a new canon can be introduced, maybe introduce some of the old characters(but not exagerated like what they did with DmC) and stories reimagined, like Leon, Trevor, Sypha, Grant, Simon, Richter, Alucard, Maria, etc, also, make the Belmont/Dracula dynamic more fleshed out instead of a he wakes up lets kill him, also make the battle cross(Vampire Killer)more important, it would be a waste not to take advantage of that.
Also, some of the old subweapons could be reintroduced like the cross bommerang, or the watch which could only be used with magic expending it faster than normal to prevent abuse and having different properties with the kind of magic its used with and maybe using it on the platforming side of the game, introduce classic monsters like mummies, frankenstein monster or frankenstein himself, gorgons, mermen, ghost dancers, or bosses, like succubus, Medusa, Slogra and Gaibon or Legion(legion in glorious LoS 3d would be epic with all the bodys as the outer shell falling of as we hit it and stuff).
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I would have like more reliance on the magic system, switching between Light and Dark when combating enemies. As in, enemies that are weak to Light, and others weak to Dark. Make it as important as weaknesses and strengths in OoE, and make magic easier to accumulate for that heightened emphasis on magic. Even have some attacks that are seemingly unblockable, forcing you to switch between Light and Dark, though then it'd be better to just get rid of the magic meters to not be cheap. IKARUGA-VANIA. Maybe the patterns can be more rhythmic to have some similarity with the older Castlevanias.
Also, considering the high emphasis on dodging, I'd make evasive maneuvers easier to control, and even strip down the combat system since all those fancy moves are really fluff. Instead there could be a few attacks, each with a truly unique property. Or actually slow down on having to dodge so much and build up on the combo potential of moves. Like make it hard to actually hit an enemy but when you do, you can pull off intense combos for a great pay off.
I would like a less stratified game world if it wants to continue building on the exploration motif, or at least make actual alternate paths that wind and meet up, or even lead up to small secret stages.
Also, no QTEs. lol.
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If the sequel is made 6 things must happen
1. Give us camera control.
2. I would like to see another combat engine used instead of the God of War formula. Come on there are other combat styles you can use now that it's obvious Gabe wont be using the whip anymore. If it's possible get Hideki Kamiya for support instead of Kojima next time.
3. No disrespect to Oscar Araujo but other than a few song's the score is pretty forgetable. Im not saying "Get Yamane to redo Bloody Tears for the millionth time" but Castlevania music needs to be hummable and memorable for the player to sit through without getting sleepy. Either get someone else to do the music(Im in favor of Jasper Kyd or Yuzo Koshiro) or tell Mr. Araujo to put some damn organs in his music next time.
4. QTE's have to go, I don't care if they're popular to use I rather have a activated cutscene after a bossfight than get surprised by a QTE at the end of a bossfight.
5. I would like to see an expansion on the light/Dark magic system.
6. New enemies are all good but I would like to see ALL of the series staples make an appearance, Medusa, mummies,bone piller, the creature, Slogra and Gaibon ect. In fact just rip the bestiary from all the Castlevania games and redo them in 3D.
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I actually shudder a bit when I think of a sequel. If Cox and crew's objective was to reel in new fans to a "dying" franchise, and if some names of places and some characters/enemies were used from previous castlevania games purely so the long time fans would not be "peeved", then what would the sequel look like castlevania wise? Would it have even less of that classic castlevania now that they have a "new fan-base"?
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Look at it this way (I read this somewhere on this board i think) imagine if only the first 4 Cv's were made 1,2,3, and super 4 and then LoS was made. How would this game hold up as a sequel to those 4 games? Pretty darn good. Everyone keeps throwing around "that castlevania feel" term and in truth this game is more "castlevania" than anything we've had in the past 10 years. LoS reminds me quite a bit of the old games is all I'm saying.
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If there were to be a sequel, it'd be crazy if they made a 2.5D one for XBLA/PSN/Steam (since WAAAH 2D WON'T SELL AT RETAIL NO MORE WAAAH). I'd love to see Mercurysteam's visuals at work in something like that. And holy hell, if they made it like Simon's Quest...
The ending still has me kinda dumbfounded so I'm not sure I can say what I'd like from the story. Mainly the whole Dracul thing... No, what? Explain yourselves. (Or don't and just add to the confusion because it'd be funny and in keeping with Castlevania tradition)
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The ending is pretty straightfoward really. Someone posted an analysis of the ending and brought up some really good points showing that it is very likely Gabriel ascended into Heaven after defeating Satan. If the interpretation is correct, we actually see this happening in the cut scene after defeating Satan. The Gabriel that is left behind is the dark half that will later be referred to as the Prince of Darkness/Dracula.
I personally hope that the sequel does not jump ahead 900+ years. I hope we get to see some of what happens in-between, all the while knowing that Satan's return is immenant and an epic adventure awaits for us in the present-day. Regardless of what happens though, I'm on board for it and I'm excited to see what's in store next.
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The after credits ending was retarded. Just putting that out there.
The game was great until Zobek was like GABRIEL, I TRICKED YOU INTO DOING MY BIDDING and then Satan was like ZOBEK, I TRICKED YOU INTO DOING MY BIDDING. And then Gabriel repents, and comes to peace, then 900 years later is a pussy emo Dracula in NYC 2010.
So there was no Dracula, or Castlevania in the actual game. And no Slogera fight. You didn't even get to fight Zobek... I almost want my money back.
OK. You had your chance, now pass the torch. Some one else's turn. Preferably someone with enough writing talent to keep the story together at the end.
I'm really thinking back to that rumor that all the Castlevania stuff was thrown in after the fact, and it was not meant to be one originally. If you think about it, without any of the name references and ultimately useless details, there is nothing distinctly Castlevania abut the title. The ending movie seemed like a quick toss in at the end as well. "Oh, well we need Dracula, cause now it's a Castlevania game, but Dracula inst actually in the game, better toss something in quick at the end!"
The music was pretty terrible too. There's only like two good tracks. In a few stages the music cuts out. I didn't even notice right away when it did. Bland cookie cutter orchestral, is not what Castlevania needs.
Oh, and, for the record, no goosebumps.
Don't get me wrong though the gameplay, environments, and combat were all top notch. I enjoyed those parts of the game. The story was all good till Satan showed up, then it was all down hill from there.
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The after credits ending was retarded. Just putting that out there.
The game was great until Zobek was like GABRIEL, I TRICKED YOU INTO DOING MY BIDDING and then Satan was like ZOBEK, I TRICKED YOU INTO DOING MY BIDDING. And then Gabriel repents, and comes to peace, then 900 years later is a pussy emo Dracula in NYC 2010.
So there was no Dracula, or Castlevania in the actual game. And no Slogera fight. You didn't even get to fight Zobek... I almost want my money back.
OK. You had your chance, now pass the torch. Some one else's turn. Preferably someone with enough writing talent to keep the story together at the end.
I'm really thinking back to that rumor that all the Castlevania stuff was thrown in after the fact, and it was not meant to be one originally. If you think about it, without any of the name references and ultimately useless details, there is nothing distinctly Castlevania abut the title. The ending movie seemed like a quick toss in at the end as well. "Oh, well we need Dracula, cause now it's a Castlevania game, but Dracula inst actually in the game, better toss something in quick at the end!"
The music was pretty terrible too. There's only like two good tracks. In a few stages the music cuts out. I didn't even notice right away when it did. Bland cookie cutter orchestral, is not what Castlevania needs.
Oh, and, for the record, no goosebumps.
Don't get me wrong though the gameplay, environments, and combat were all top notch. I enjoyed those parts of the game. The story was all good till Satan showed up, then it was all down hill from there.
Well, the fact that Zobek wasn't all goodly and on Gabriel's side should have been quiet obvious by the end. Not minding that Gabriel was been devoured by his anger, calling him the "Prince of Darkness" with pride, letting him do EVERYTHING by himself while watching from safety.
As for Satan and Zobek, it was a bit strange, but again makes sense. How could a mere necromancer cut Heaven off from the Earth after all. Besides, it was foreshadowed several times in the game itself.
Look at the game as the first in a series, which is what it is and what it is meant to be. We just watched what Gabriel became without Marie (and his moments of clarity when she was near) and saw his despair at losing her completely. We know that it won't be hard for him to return to that dark place, especially knowing that he was the hand that killed her.
I found that the story stayed together the whole way. Characters were consistent, and all the surprises were properly foreshadowed/telegraphed.
Besides, what is in a Castlevania game that wasn't in this one? Lament of Innocence didn't have Dracula. Does that mean it isn't Castlevania? Simon's Quest didn't have the Castle. Does that mean it isn't Castlevania.
If anything, Lords of Shadow was far more Castlevania than Lament of Innocence, because while neither had Dracula, Lords of Shadow had the actual, proper Castle Dracula.
Saying that it isn't "Castlevania" seems to be the go to excuse to try and dismiss the game because of personal dislikes. Frankly, I found it better than the average Castlevania because it varied itself.
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I think the only "bad" part of the ending was Zobek's dialogue, I mean, it's neccessary and absolutely makes sense, but admitedly is cheesy as hell. I would have like to have that informtion in a more creative way. but story is great.
It all makes sense because, you know, Dracula's Castle ALWAYS has somekind of chapel in it, and I always asked to myself "Why is Dracula not allied with Satan and still has a chapel?", this is why, Dracula is not Satan's friend at all.
So there was no Dracula, or Castlevania in the actual game. And no Slogera fight. You didn't even get to fight Zobek... I almost want my money back.
It's because this game is about Dracula's rising, there's no Castlevania (Calling CV as Dracul'a sCastle however Carmilla's Castle is ONE AND THE SAME with it, READ THE FUCKING SCROLLS please, it's the same Castle that the Bernhard family once had and that's the Castle Dracula takes as his own). I like the tidbit that Castlevania is also a separate entity to Dracula (It's real nature is not explained, and I like it, it's more misterious) that has been a mystery since centuries before (No one was ever able to make a map for it... chaos creaure anyone?). There's no Slogra because Dracula has not created it, is that simple. If we had fought ALL castlevania enemy then ot would have meant that Dracula actually didn't create anything himself but recycled every design of the Lords of Shadow. That¡s absolutely dumb, and so is your argument, you simply don't get it, IGA storyline has been soo retarded simple that some fans just can't get a multilayered story.
The music was pretty terrible too. There's only like two good tracks. In a few stages the music cuts out. I didn't even notice right away when it did. Bland cookie cutter orchestral, is not what Castlevania needs.
Are you real musician? With musical formation? no? then STFU, I am and I must tell this soundtrack is wonderful, Yamane's tracks had only 3-4 chords progression with almost no variable dynamics, now, THAT's bland, don't think a catchy melody makes a good composition. Araujo's score is a RONDO-based composition, don't know why is it?, then you don't have the right to criticize this.
MercurySteam, Alvarez, Cox... you are my hero, you saved this saga from mediocrity and dumbness, congratulations and thank you a lot =D
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There's no Slogra because Dracula has not created it, is that simple. If we had fought ALL castlevania enemy then ot would have meant that Dracula actually didn't create anything himself but recycled every design of the Lords of Shadow. That¡s absolutely dumb, and so is your argument, you simply don't get it, IGA storyline has been soo retarded simple that some fans just can't get a multilayered story.Are you real musician? With musical formation? no? then STFU, I am and I must tell this soundtrack is wonderful, Yamane's tracks had only 3-4 chords progression with almost no variable dynamics, now, THAT's bland, don't think a catchy melody makes a good composition. Araujo's score is a RONDO-based composition, don't know why is it?, then you don't have the right to criticize this.
You just love making excuses for MercurySteam, don't you?
Slogra & classic enemies not being in LoS because Dracula didn't create them? That's very laughable. Why would they tease us with that image of Slogra being designed in the first place? For DLC? I don't think so, cuz that image was released almost over a year ago. There's no reason they couldn't have included it. The decision to not add any classic monsters was MercurySteam's, NOT because "Dracula wasn't around yet," or any other excuse you want to come up with. But hey, as long as the noobs are happy then who cares about the "old, messed up CV universe," right?
and for the record, pretty much anything from Yamane is better than LoS' mediocre OST. Just sayin'.
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I have to agree with Ahasverus on this. Reason being is that mercury stream has been pretty consistent with the story and the inclusion of the Slogra corpse at the end (AFTER Dracula has been around for 1000 years) just tells me they know where they want to go with the story.
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You just love making excuses for MercurySteam, don't you?
Slogra & classic enemies not being in LoS because Dracula didn't create them? That's very laughable. Why would they tease us with that image of Slogra being designed in the first place? For DLC? I don't think so, cuz that image was released almost over a year ago. There's no reason they couldn't have included it. The decision to not add any classic monsters was MercurySteam's, NOT because "Dracula wasn't around yet," or any other excuse you want to come up with. But hey, as long as the noobs are happy then who cares about the "old, messed up CV universe," right?
and for the record, pretty much anything from Yamane is better than LoS' mediocre OST. Just sayin'.
Yeah... Or they're working on it because it's planned for the OTHER two games they've got planned.
Besides, if Gabriel kills Slogra before becoming Dracula how is Slogra supposed to exist to menace the Belmonts that enter the Castle in the years to come?
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Saying that it isn't "Castlevania" seems to be the go to excuse to try and dismiss the game because of personal dislikes.
Assuming that you mean people say this game doesn't feel like a Castlevania because of personal dislikes then it seems more like the other way around. People love to triumphantly exclaim—"This game Castlevania references! The main character is a Belmont, he fights with a whip, obscure reference this, tagged on names that etc etc." Though pretty much all of these points are superficial or aesthetics the game happend to share in common with other titles in the franchise. Just because the main character happens to wield a whip-like weapon which he uses in a manner completely alien from how it was handled in say SCVIV doesn't mean it is a similarity of any relevance. People are making excuses like that up because they like the direction Mercury Steam has taken with the series but just don't want to admit it isn't much like the series they are a fan of in the first place. I really can't stand such kind off retarted fanboyism. It the most dumbest and annoying thing ever.
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Assuming that you mean people say this game doesn't feel like a Castlevania because of personal dislikes then it seems more like the other way around. People love to triumphantly exclaim—"This game Castlevania references! The main character is a Belmont, he fights with a whip, obscure reference this, tagged on names that etc etc." Though pretty much all of these points are superficial or aesthetics the game happend to share in common with other titles in the franchise. Just because the main character happens to wield a whip-like weapon which he uses in a manner completely alien from how it was handled in say SCVIV doesn't mean it is a similarity of any relevance. People are making excuses like that up because they like the direction Mercury Steam has taken with the series but just don't want to admit it isn't much like the series they are a fan of in the first place. I really can't stand such kind off retarted fanboyism. It the most dumbest and annoying thing ever.
Actually, it comes down to defining what Castlevania is. Is it having Dracula as the final boss? Well, there goes Lament of Innocence and Dawn of Sorrow and Aria of Sorrow.
Is it spending most of the game in Castle Dracula? Well there goes a bunch of gameboy titles, Curse of Darkness, Simon's Quest and bunch of others.
Maybe it's playing a Belmont? So that takes out most of the games after SotN.
Maybe it's about being able to double back and explore the castle and it's surroundings like a Metroidvania? Well now the original games aren't Castlevania enough to be included
My point is that what makes a game "Castlevania" is mostly a matter of taste. This game is a reboot and uses older references to help get the story going and shape itself. Does it do things differently? Yes. But it isn't any less Castlevania than any other games that have come before it.
After all, while Gabriel uses a whip-like weapon in ways we've never seen before (which can be put down to technological reasons in all cases if we're honest), using it as an example means that every game that included the ability for a character to hold their whip out and flick it around to try and get rid of projectiles is not a Castlevania game.
The game changes as technology advances. The series is no longer a 6 stage, timed 8-bit platformer, and I doubt that we want it to be that. What we love about the series has developed over time, and we're willing to accept games that have absolutely nothing to do with the Belmonts, who are supposed to be the main heroes, as Castlevania.
This is the first game where there was real care taken in crafting it and the story, and where serious design was done on three-dimensional levels. It is different. As different as Symphony of the Night was from Castlevania 3, and as Castlevania 3 was for Castlevania 1, and Simon's Quest from the original, and so on and so forth.
So the question comes back to this. What is it that this game lacks that all other games have that defines them as "Castlevania" games?
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double post
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I agree, Castlevania feel is very subjectivbe.
Castlevania in its more "naked" form is christian imagery, mythological creatures and platfforming, everything else is author's interpretation. Not even Dracula or Belmonts are neccessary, any troubled protagonist is fine for me.
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The point I was trying to make clear is that people who have liked the direction this game is taking the series are argueing that this game is very reminiscent of the older games while that is not true at all. This game puts Castlevania in a new light but although that might be the case you can't argue that Lords is "going back to the roots" because of lack of elements that define the series. I also don't agree with you on that point for several reasons but that is besides the point.
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The point I was trying to make clear is that people who have liked the direction this game is taking the series are argueing that this game is very reminiscent of the older games while that is not true at all. This game puts Castlevania in a new light but although that might be the case you can't argue that Lords is "going back to the roots" because of lack of elements that define the series. I also don't agree with you on that point for several reasons but that is besides the point.
What are the "elements" that define the series?
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Oh I get this, now I'm supposed to give you list of traits that Castlevania games share in common and then you are going to nitpick on hearts being not important because in Bloodlines it were crystals.
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What are the "elements" that define the series?
Seeing that the series is called Demon Castle Dracula, you would expect Dracula to be in it. And his Demon castle. You have to admit Dracula's appearance at the end felt tacked on.
While I enjoyed Lords, I have to agree with Nagumo on this. It didn't feel like a classicvania, it was its own thing. It really lacked the atmosphere that the older games had (which the metroidvanias as of late have been struggling with too).
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The point I was trying to make clear is that people who have liked the direction this game is taking the series are argueing that this game is very reminiscent of the older games while that is not true at all. This game puts Castlevania in a new light but although that might be the case you can't argue that Lords is "going back to the roots" because of lack of elements that define the series. I also don't agree with you on that point for several reasons but that is besides the point.
Ah, I see. Now, I never argued that it was going back to Castlevania's roots. I commented on it being a reboot, which does mean they're going to go in a different direction. It doesn't mean that they're going to do everything over, just take it in a different direction. but that doesn't mean it is no longer Castlevania.
To use an example, they rebooted the He-man animated series around 2002. They took the same basic concept and went from there. But they made changes. Prince Adam was no longer He-man's pink wearing, less tanned double. Skeletor became an actual threat. Relationships and characterizations changed.
It wasn't the same line as back in the 80's. It was different, but it was still He-man.
Lords of Shadow is the beginning of a new take on Castlevania. It takes a different road, but the core concept of the whip-wielding holy warrior seeking to destroy the forces of darkness. Are all the elements there? No. But from how things are lined up, it isn't that they are forgotten, it's that getting them all in is part of the continuing story.
What makes Lords of Shadow really different is that it has a story from the beginning and tries to give the player a good understanding of who Dracula was before he became Dracula. After all, he's simply the last boss in the games now. He's a guy that gets drug out simply to get put down withing a few minutes of waking up. The take Mercury Steam seems to be taking implies that he will be an actual character, instead of the characture that we fight at the end of every game.
After all, how many games is Dracula just a side bar or even an after-thought to the main plot because someone was trying to resurrect him and it turns out that killing them triggers the resurrection.
I really hope that they continue the 2d versions, but I'm looking forward to more from MercurySteam. They both have different takes on the stories they are trying to tell, but that doesn't make one story less than the other.
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Oh I get this, now I'm supposed to give you list of traits that Castlevania games share in common and then you are going to nitpick on hearts being not important because in Bloodlines it were crystals.
Not really about the nitpicking, but the basic point is that they're all different in some way. People complain because it isn't inside the castle. Well, neither was Bloodlines. Again, that doesn't make it something that people claim is not Castlevania.
But no, it shouldn't be nitpicky stuff like crystals instead of Hearts.
But for an example, Let's say that the basic concept of Castlevania is "Whip-Wielding Hero fights his way through a castle filled with monsters to destroy Dracula". That leaves out a LOT of games that are considered core to the series.
So if someone is saying that it isn't Castlevania, it would be nice to know just what it is that Lords of Shadow lacks that all other Castlevania's have.
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Not really about the nitpicking, but the basic point is that they're all different in some way. People complain because it isn't inside the castle. Well, neither was Bloodlines. Again, that doesn't make it something that people claim is not Castlevania.
But no, it shouldn't be nitpicky stuff like crystals instead of Hearts.
But for an example, Let's say that the basic concept of Castlevania is "Whip-Wielding Hero fights his way through a castle filled with monsters to destroy Dracula". That leaves out a LOT of games that are considered core to the series.
So if someone is saying that it isn't Castlevania, it would be nice to know just what it is that Lords of Shadow lacks that all other Castlevania's have.
this
What I see in LoS is the same somber atmosphere we've had in all the games and idk about anyone else but that's enough for me.
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Seeing that the series is called Demon Castle Dracula, you would expect Dracula to be in it. And his Demon castle. You have to admit Dracula's appearance at the end felt tacked on.
While I enjoyed Lords, I have to agree with Nagumo on this. It didn't feel like a classicvania, it was its own thing. It really lacked the atmosphere that the older games had (which the metroidvanias as of late have been struggling with too).
Eh, Dracula has felt tacked on to the end of the games for a long time. And at least we went through the Demon castle to fight the Vampire lord at the top, unlike Simon's Quest, Bloodlines and others.
I will agree that the atmosphere was different throughout the game. Personally, I found the atmosphere was absolutely what I remembered the moment that I came through the mountain pass and saw Wygol with the castle looming over it. But then again, I found that the atmosphere was superior from then on to the earlier games. It is taste and subjective, though you'd probably have a lot of people who would challenge the idea that Curse of Dracula had more Atmosphere than Lords of Shadow.
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Yes, but Lords is not just different in a way. It isn't anything like Castlevania. Or at least vastly different from it. So I don't think you can use that as a proper defense for the game regardless.
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Yes, but Lords is not just different in a way. It isn't anything like Castlevania. Or at least vastly different from it. So I don't think you can use that as a proper defense for the game regardless.
Again, it comes down to how is it so absolutely different? It's been said that using the whip and dropping names isn't enough to bring it in line. If you're saying that names, monsters and whips aren't enough, then you should be able to explain what makes the other games Castlevania games when you strip them of the exact same things.
How about this. Look at Lament of Innocence and Lords of Shadow, since they are both supposed to be the "start" of the series. What makes Lament of Innocence more Castlevania than Lords of Shadow?
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it has poorly implemented bone towers
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it has poorly implemented bone towers
Ah... So bone towers are the defining factor of a Castlevania game.
Really? That's what people will agree Makes a Castlevania game? The Bone Towers?
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That was clearly a tongue-in-cheek statement, bro.
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Did LoI and CoD have bats? I don't remember, but I thought the way the bats were used as part of the scenery in Lords was pretty well done, since bats and medusa heads in CV64 were really clunky. Getting rid of them in 3D was change that really had to be made, same with bone towers.
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Did LoI and CoD have bats?
Yep, Lament had bats, and they used to fly/dash in flames against Leon if I remember correctly.
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LoI had rhythmically placed candles and catchy music. And the platforming it had didn't make it seem like it was an entirely different game, even though the platforming was extremely awful and limited. It's more Castlevania in these regards. Of course, being more Castlevania doesn't make it a better game, and it really isn't all that Castlevania either.
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Okay the ending KINDA bothers me.
Gabriel being dracula is a plus to me...It's a tragic story and makes sense.
However, the ending is in modern times...Wtf?....So what happened since lords of shadow up till that point, it's like they said screw sequels lets just end the series all together.
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hmm sequel ideas umm... Julius. I demand the "1999 Julius giant war vania" Since the game ended in modern times.. we can just do the 1999 plot. that is all.
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Am I the only one who thinks the sequel to this game is going to NOT be related to the after credits ending?
They set up the beginning, they set up the end, and now they make the games in the middle that tie the end to the beginning. Cox's twitter posts HEAVILY alluding to the presence of both Alucard AND Simon kind of point in this direction. If anything, Zobek's line about how Gabriel "once was" Dracula isn't anymore points to the fact that Gabriel has been running around as Dracula for awhile before the after credits ending.
Also, it might just be me, but I never found the candles in Castlevania games to be anything more than place holders to fill up long walking segments or something to smash when you needed hearts. The rhythmical nature of it all is a just a testament to the original game designers ability to make walking down a hallway not boring. If a Castlevania game can provide ammo and subweapons in a less place holder way, then I congratulate them.
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No, I totally agree with you on all points. It's getting pretty annoying seeing people act like the next game is going to undeniably follow the ending.
Hell, the whole point of the ending seemed to be to raise questions that will be explained in due time.
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Yeah... Or they're working on it because it's planned for the OTHER two games they've got planned.
Two games? Where did you hear this?
Besides, if Gabriel kills Slogra before becoming Dracula how is Slogra supposed to exist to menace the Belmonts that enter the Castle in the years to come?
It's a video game, dude.
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The only reason I think it's logical that a sequel follows up on the post-credit scene is one little word: money. I have no idea how much this game cost to make, but I'd imagine it's in the neighborhood 0f 15 to 20 million dollars, and that's no small amount. If the game sell well enough to warrant a sequel, which I hope it does, then the majority of the people who bought it, people with little to no prior connection to the series, will be expecting to play as Drac/Gabe in the present day, and it would be pretty silly to not give the people that.
As for what happens in the meantime, that's what dlc is for.
My own wishes for a sequel are pretty reasonable. I'd like to see some new weapon upgrades, i.e. flame whip or something along those lines. Item crashes would be nifty. I liked the music in this game, but I'd want to see, or hear as it were, a few of the old standards brought back. A higher framerate would also be nice. I hope that Mercury Steam has enough sense to leave the old series where it is. Little references, such as Gandolfi making the whip, or Olrox and Brauner, are great, but there is a reason why the series was in desperate need of a reboot.
Oh, and please, please, please, keep IGA away from the series from now on. That would be just great.
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The only reason I think it's logical that a sequel follows up on the post-credit scene is one little word: money. I have no idea how much this game cost to make, but I'd imagine it's in the neighborhood 0f 15 to 20 million dollars, and that's no small amount. If the game sell well enough to warrant a sequel, which I hope it does, then the majority of the people who bought it, people with little to no prior connection to the series, will be expecting to play as Drac/Gabe in the present day, and it would be pretty silly to not give the people that.
As for what happens in the meantime, that's what dlc is for.
My own wishes for a sequel are pretty reasonable. I'd like to see some new weapon upgrades, i.e. flame whip or something along those lines. Item crashes would be nifty. I liked the music in this game, but I'd want to see, or hear as it were, a few of the old standards brought back. A higher framerate would also be nice. I hope that Mercury Steam has enough sense to leave the old series where it is. Little references, such as Gandolfi making the whip, or Olrox and Brauner, are great, but there is a reason why the series was in desperate need of a reboot.
Oh, and please, please, please, keep IGA away from the series from now on. That would be just great.
I'm sure LoS will sell better than all the post SotN games combined lol and if they were willing to fund IGA (granted his games cost less) for as long as they did I see no problem with Konami continuing with MS and I doubt with the success of the MGS franchise that Knoami is hurting for money.
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Idk if that makes all that much sense to me. If they wanted more money wouldn't they make more games. I'm sure LoS will sell better than PoR, OoE, and judgment combined lol
That's not what I'm saying. Obviously, if the game is successful there will be sequels, but it makes absolutely no sense to assume that the new series would remain successful for any length of time, so it would be foolish not to build on the foundation they've already laid. I think the next game, perhaps next two as games love to come in trilogies, would deal with Gabe/Drac, and later, if the series is still profitable, perhaps we'll see new heroes in games set in the past. Besides, PoR, OoE, and Judgement didn't exactly light the world on fire with sales, so using them as a metric for success is kinda worthless.
The game will probably need close to a million copies sold to be greenlit for a sequel.
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Well, the fact that Zobek wasn't all goodly and on Gabriel's side should have been quiet obvious by the end. Not minding that Gabriel was been devoured by his anger, calling him the "Prince of Darkness" with pride, letting him do EVERYTHING by himself while watching from safety.
Not what I'm complaining about. That itself is fine.
As for Satan and Zobek, it was a bit strange, but again makes sense. How could a mere necromancer cut Heaven off from the Earth after all. Besides, it was foreshadowed several times in the game itself.
Also not what I'm complaining about. That also is fine, but less so.
The issue here is speed. The reveal was good for Zobek, but then literally two minutes later Satan shows up with the same plot device. Way too quick.
Besides, what is in a Castlevania game that wasn't in this one? Lament of Innocence didn't have Dracula. Does that mean it isn't Castlevania? Simon's Quest didn't have the Castle. Does that mean it isn't Castlevania.
Lament had Dracula, just not in the traditional sense. It worked out pretty well given the limited story interactions that were provided. Simon's Quest had a castle, just in ruins. It made sense given the story.
While Dracula isnt mandated, and shouldnt be mandated, for end boss in every single game he and his castle are the central theme of the series. Portrait would have been fine, if not better, without Dracula as the end boss, but more of a "oh shit we better not wake him up" plot device. Order of Ecclesia could have worked similarly. Prevent his revival by killing Barlowe. Though I'm glad I got to tackle Dracula and the castle in OoE because it was a great game and had a Dracula with a new pattern finally. Harmony was a nice balance here, where Dracula wasnt truly awakened, but sort of in a limbo state. This title also didn't necessarily needs Dracula at the end.
Now to tackle Ahasverus's crappy post.
READ THE FUCKING SCROLLS
I can read just fine. I suppose it could be a setup for later games, but not having the final badguy in the castle diminished its importance compared to the other games.
There's no Slogra because Dracula has not created it, is that simple. If we had fought ALL castlevania enemy then ot would have meant that Dracula actually didn't create anything himself but recycled every design of the Lords of Shadow.
That's cool except Dracula himself didn't create the majority of his minions. There is no reason we cant fight Slogera, and then in later games too, you know like the actual games.
Are you real musician? With musical formation? no? then STFU, I am and I must tell this soundtrack is wonderful, Yamane's tracks had only 3-4 chords progression with almost no variable dynamics, now, THAT's bland, don't think a catchy melody makes a good composition. Araujo's score is a RONDO-based composition, don't know why is it?, then you don't have the right to criticize this.
I don't have to be a musician to know the music was mostly boring, generic, and bland. All the fancy music terms in the world do not change that fact.
MercurySteam, Alvarez, Cox... you are my hero, you saved this saga from mediocrity and dumbness, congratulations and thank you a lot =D
Again with the supreme ass kissing. You never change.
That was easier than I thought.
High five to Harry and Nagumo.
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Y'know what would be totally cool? If Cox made another Castlevania game that was totally unrelated to LoS, existing in it's OWN universal bubble, being yet ANOTHER take on the origin mythology. Y'know, just to mess with people. "Okay, I made Gabriel Dracula in Lords of Shadow. Next, let's do another one, but I'll make a character named Vladis, and I'll make HIM Dracula! It will be cool, because it will be it's OWN little thing!!". That would be AWESOME! ;D
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Haha that made me chuckle hahahahah. +1
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Look at it this way (I read this somewhere on this board i think) imagine if only the first 4 Cv's were made 1,2,3, and super 4 and then LoS was made. How would this game hold up as a sequel to those 4 games? Pretty darn good. Everyone keeps throwing around "that castlevania feel" term and in truth this game is more "castlevania" than anything we've had in the past 10 years. LoS reminds me quite a bit of the old games is all I'm saying.
Nailed it. It's like the old school CV's (with overworld map not unlike CV3 and CV4), but with 3D fighting mechanics and an excellent story thrown in to boot. The series had before way to convoluted, and seriously needed to go back to it's roots and be reimagined. Mecurysteam did this with flying colors imho.
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http://www.eurogamer.es/articles/mercury-steam-trabaja-en-un-nuevo-castlevania (http://www.eurogamer.es/articles/mercury-steam-trabaja-en-un-nuevo-castlevania)
Oscar Araujo just confirmed that MS is working on a sequel, seems that konami is very happy with LOS
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Wow that was quick.
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Well if they are as receptive to feedback as they seemed to be with some things that changed from LoS's debut, it'd be a good idea to suggest them in that thread :)
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How about this. Look at Lament of Innocence and Lords of Shadow, since they are both supposed to be the "start" of the series. What makes Lament of Innocence more Castlevania than Lords of Shadow?
I'm too lazy to write something myself so I'm just going to quote from giz 5:36.
the individual differences between the titles - the differences between super castlevania IV and Rondo of Blood, between Symphony of the Night and Portrait of Ruin, between Harmony of Dissonance and Castlevania III were all embellishments; they were not entirely new aesthetics, they consisted of the same aesthetic presented through a different style, a different execution. it's like viewing the same thing through a variety of different perception filters.
castlevania is not necessarily defined by "the things" that it possesses, it is defined by the way in which these things work together and are represented. the monsters, the castle, the protagonist, the flow of the gameplay, the music, the atmosphere; despite being different between every title - in some cases, radically - they all manage to maintain the same kind of base feeling, the same obvious inspiration. just try comparing the music between castlevania III and Symphony of the Night, or Super Castlevania IV and Harmony of Dissonance, Aria of Sorrow, Order of Ecclesia; they're all unique in their own way but - by and large - they all build off of the same kind of innate elements and things. and obviously - as i said above - it isn't just about the music, or the individual elements, its about the way in which all of these things work together. music is just one of the easiest examples of both variation and consistency.
beyond this, there are the central themes that bind the series; which, i will admit in some ways LoS has tried to capitalize upon; of a small force tackling a massive castle full of supernatural monsters (although in every castlevania title nearly all of the monsters have been derived from western classical mythology or "cheese"-goth/horror as viewed through a japanese perspective. i suspect that this is important in establishing the identity, as well;), of grandeur and antiquity combined with a keen sense of the relatively contemporary, of flow, progression and locomotion; the very way in which it treats its subject matter and expresses it, both in a relatively tongue-in-cheek manner and as a legitimate and interesting aesthetic.
these are all pretty broad (yet simultaneously specific??) aspects, and yet LoS just comes completely out of left-field. a reinvention does not have to disregard, it simply has to embrace and embellish. in some ways, the first devil may cry reminds me more of castlevania than lords of shadow has thus far.
in some ways, castlevania lords of shadow has maintained a few of the "things" in castlevania; supernatural monsters, a large castle, a lone dude w/ a whip, but its representation, its execution of these concepts both on their own and in relation to everything else is so radically different and off compared to every other game: it is not about the things, it is not about superficial elements like that, it is about these things within the context of every other thing, of all these things together, of representation, of expression, of execution. of how these things are.
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Nagumo, that thing you quoted, while respectable as any opinion, isn't very argumentative. All it says is that LoS doesn't feel like Castlevania because it doesn't feel like Castlevania.
I think one needs to bring out some actual argument if they want to have anything more persuasive than "this is how I feel".
As for my opinion:
I think LoS has the disadvantage of being a 3D game. This already puts it in a different context compared to a saga that is historically a 2d side scroller.
On the other hand, not many people complained about LoI not being CV enough; so where is the difference? It could possibly be the fact that LoI was a 3D game that tried to look like an anime, LoS is a 3D game that tries to look like a movie.
Now, this means that LoI is certainly a lot more faithful to the IGAvania side of the franchise. IGA has always pursued anime looks and I feel that the Soma Cruz games are an expression of the fact he was given greater creative freedom at some point (possibly in order to make the saga more popular).
However, was CV always like that?
(http://www.pixfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/super-castlevania-4-3.jpg)
(http://roboawesome.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/scrn_superCastlevaniaIV-01.jpg)
Now, how would thistranslate in 3d?
Like this:
(http://cdn1.gamepro.com/screens/106854/29504-3-2.jpg)
(http://i.neoseeker.com/p/Games/Playstation_2/Action/Adventure/castlevania_lament_of_innocence_profilelarge.jpg)
or like this:
(http://files.g4tv.com/ImageDb3/241829_S/Castlevania-Lords-of-Shadow.jpg)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2010/06/castlevania-lords-of-shadow-e3-preview-530px.jpg)
When you look at them, the only mayor visual differences (graphical quality aside) are the character design and LoI being an overall brighter, more anime inspired game. In terms of design, people complain about the platforming in LoS, but LoI had even less. The combat is vastly similar in both games, and I'd be hard pressed to find someone saying LoI had higher quality in that. Monsters? LoS features CV monsters all the way through. You may complain about goblins and spiders I guess, but it's not like LoI or expecially the handheld titles didn't have completely spaced out monsters.
In the end, the point is just your perception. What you feel Castlevania is. If you're fine with having Dracula reincarnating in a white haired college student in 2035 or having a girl in heel-high boots draining souls in 1800s, and feel those games are "Castlevania", but LoS is not, you need to accept your personal perception is influencing your judgement or point at some objective elements that mark a difference.
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In the end, the point is just your perception. What you feel Castlevania is. If you're fine with having Dracula reincarnating in a white haired college student in 2035 or having a girl in heel-high boots draining souls in 1800s, and feel those games are "Castlevania", but LoS is not, you need to accept your personal perception is influencing your judgement or point at some objective elements that mark a difference.
Thats really not fair at all. We also have our own perspectives and to us, yes those games feel like Castlevania to us. But they feel that way for a reason. They have similar rhythm and central themes that the early Castlevanias did but also executed them in a fresh way. Aria really is one of the best in the series and I think arguing that liking that game but not respect Lords as a Castlevania game is ridiculous.
Just compare the first 3 chapters of Lords to any other castlevania game. Those chapters feel nothing like any other game in the series. The aesthetics and atmosphere are completely different. Look at CotM and HoD, both had very different perspectives of what the Castle looks and feels like, with CotM being darker and HoD just being chaotic, but they were still built around the same idea, just it was done in very different ways. Lords is almost a complete break from everything we have ever known until around chapter 6. Lords does start feeling more like a Castlevania game later on but large parts of it just feel really foreign.
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Are saying the first 3 chapters are nothing like previous games in the series because of the outside explorable areas are not inside a Castle, or because of it's usage lit areas that took place during the day time.
If it's the former then perhaps I say look into Castlevania II, III, and especially Super Castlevania IV. Which those games featured many diverse locales. Especially Super Castlevania IV which has many outdoor locations such as swamps, dark forests, underground caverns with waterfalls and rivers.
These earlier games had the same slow build up and progression needing to traverse through different locations to get TO the Castle rather then starting in the Castle from the very beginning.
The only aspect of Lords of Shadow that seems completely out of place that all previous games in the series did not have is those Titan Battles. While there was some very large enemies in previous Castlevania games, however nothing at that scale or style that flowed with the gothic / classic horror movie monster formula that is consistent with the majority of enemy designs in the earliest games in the series.
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I think one needs to bring out some actual argument if they want to have anything more persuasive than "this is how I feel".
Yeah, and that's not what that argument is since its clearly explained.
Are saying the first 3 chapters are nothing like previous games in the series because of the outside explorable areas are not inside a Castle, or because of it's usage lit areas that took place during the day time.
The way these levels were excuted weren't much like previous Castlevania since it relied on high fantasy-styled aesthetics and atmosphere and the series was never about that.
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Are saying the first 3 chapters are nothing like previous games in the series because of the outside explorable areas are not inside a Castle, or because of it's usage lit areas that took place during the day time.
If it's the former then perhaps I say look into Castlevania II, III, and especially Super Castlevania IV. Which those games featured many diverse locales. Especially Super Castlevania IV which has many outdoor locations such as swamps, dark forests, underground caverns with waterfalls and rivers.
None of those games had freaking AZTEC RUINS!
I have played all the games you have mentioned, and I love Super Castlevania 4. But it feels entirely different from them. The levels still feel European, they still have an atmosphere of tension and are gloomy. Look how dark the environments are in the forest level in SCV4 (and I don't just mean lighting, I mean the atmosphere). It is completely different from the first 3 levels of Lords.
That thing that knightmere said about nagumo and opinions & whatnot.
All of Nagumo's views are completely founded. You are blinding yourself to the problems with this game. I was looking forward to this game and went into it with an open mind, and most of the problems that people had with it early on were still in the final game. Until chapter 6 the atmosphere and levels are nothing like any of the previous Castlevania games. Its okay if you like it, but please don't delude yourself into thinking it is similar to the first 4 Castlevania games. Its not, its unique (and it is a good game, but its different).
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I thin one good theme most castlevania games all carried: Night! Even when you were in areas with no windows to the outside world, it was just a given that, outside, it WAS night, be it you were walking in a corridor in the center of the castle, or miles below in an underground catacomb, it was still night up there! And even though, you'll get some scattered stages throughout the series that take place in dawn or hazy days, night is still the most prominent of times in the series.
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gloomy. Look how dark the environments are in the forest level in SCV4 (and I don't just mean lighting, I mean the atmosphere). It is completely different from the first 3 levels of Lords.
All of Nagumo's views are completely founded. You are blinding yourself to the problems with this game. I was looking forward to this game and went into it with an open mind, and most of the problems that people had with it early on were still in the final game. Until chapter 6 the atmosphere and levels are nothing like any of the previous Castlevania games. Its okay if you like it, but please don't delude yourself into thinking it is similar to the first 4 Castlevania games. Its not, its unique (and it is a good game, but its different).
I never said LoS is like CV 1-4, I don't know where you got that :/
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That thing knightmere said about successor and a site and opinions.
*facepalm*
how incredibly immature to bad mouth another forum dude.
i like BOTH and bad mouthing another because they don't agree with some of your perspective is pretty lame dude.
could a moderator or admin please handle this?
this is obviosly a flame bait type of post
EDITED by Moderation:
Done, and done, sir.
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(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/5930/fansbrotherhood.gif)
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(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/5930/fansbrotherhood.gif)
In context with the game and how it plays out, this is actually very appropriate.
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It would be nice to have more dark and foggy stages, reminiscent of Alan Wake...and maybe a female protagonist in the near future.
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Yes, we are team Satan.
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I <3 the Chapel
Nagumo, Successor, & ne1 else should post here as much as they like :)
To those that keep comparing the first 3 chapters to CV1-IV:
They are nothing like CV1-IV.
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What the fuck is this, and why are other forums being trashed!?
I will not tolerate this.
You know, I go away for one weekend and this builds up?
Knightmere:
You're getting a warning. Please take any disputes you have with another forum OUT OF THIS ONE, either to Personal Messaging or to another means of communication. And do not pollute actual discussion with petty squabbles.
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What the fuck is this, and why are other forums being trashed!?
I will not tolerate this.
You know, I go away for one weekend and this builds up?
Knightmere:
You're getting a warning. Please take any disputes you have with another forum OUT OF THIS ONE, either to Personal Messaging or to another means of communication. And do not pollute actual discussion with petty squabbles.
Sorry Jorge, I will keep it civil. Please accept my apologies, I was not trying to start a forum war.
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...very well, then.
I will erase most of what occurred in this page. I trust it will not happen again.
Please continue the discussion, now.
ANYWAY:
I love Lords of Shadow... as a game. I went through the entire game, losing valuable hours of sleep, and am now collecting all of the extra items I missed during my fast runthrough. As such, I've been really holding back on any opinions on the game, since it's really not fair to say them until the entire game is sampled. Now, with that being said, here's my personal view of the whole thing:
1. The scope of the game is quite amazing. Castlevania games need a large scope such as this. This wasn't just little random cutscenes here and there. There were great touches done as well. The Pan puzzle with the Pendulum, the Fairies' Puzzle with the Runes, and the Blood Puzzle near the end, were very well-executed. And the grand locales we got to visit on our our adventure were topnotch.
2. Although the music is very nice... this is one area where it was lacking. Not lacking in quality or lacking in execution, but lacking in feeling and soul. If I had a jukebox mode where I could plug in my own songs, I would have dug up memorable entries in the vast Castlevania musical library, and would have atmosphere-ized them into matching the mood of the game's soundtrack, similar to how "The Waterfalls" and "Prologue" were cleverly arranged. "The Waterfalls" has a beautiful, somber feel, and "Prologue" sounds like a perfect lead-in piece, which is what its CV4 version was. Having said that, many locales could have used a musical score to match where you were. For example:
Wygol Village at Night - It really could have used "Monster Dance" from Simon's Quest
Hunting Path - "Forest of Monsters" from CV4
The Crow Witch's Tower - "Rising" (CV3) would have been perfect, here.
The Castle's Underground Waterway - "Chaccone C. Moll" or CV64's "Underground Waterway". I will not bring up Crystal Teardrops only because these would have probabaly fit the stage better.
Wygol Abbey Church - Really could have used "Chapel Hidden in Smoke" (OoE), "After Confession" (DoS), or "Watchtower" (CV64).
The Necromancer's Abyss - Could've used "The Abyss" from DoS or "Chaos Realm" from AoS. It's really a no-brainer, here.
One did not even need to bring out the big guns (Bloody Tears, Beginning, Dance of Illusions), just pepper the nice soundtrack with a few tunes to keep the stage fresh and memorable. Why does the Valley of the Fallen Titans have the same music as the Three Towers of Agharta (unless as a composer, you're telling us "All desolate places use this tune"... which is, sadly, a boring disposition to take, for Castlevania).
And that's only what I can think off off the top of my head. So many missed opportunities! I do not even mind the parts that were to have silence, and I love the battle music used for when ogres/werewolves show up... but there's only so much ambience one can take. Even Legacy of Darkness seems to have a more memorable soundtrack, at least when it comes to recognizable locales having music to match.
Castlevania may have different feels throughout its history, but one thing about it which has always shined about it, is its memorable musical score. While LoS has a nice score, no one will be humming the tunes in their head, ever.
3. And this one is pretty stupid and I realize it sounds stupid as I say it... but I will say it anyway:
The breakable objects in a stage... they need to reveal items all the time, or hearts/jewels. I mentioned this somewhere else, but I ran through the game breaking everything I could break, just because in my head, the Castlevania that has been ingrained in there has to have objects pop out of the breakables. It only started to feel more once I got the Dagger Upgrades and was able to get more. Destroying something only to get "You cannot carry any more fairies/daggers/holy water vials" or "Your crystal is already complete" just became more and more frustrating as I played. If you don't like hearts, then give us Jewels. Make it so that if we pick up hearts/jewels, they'll power whatever subweapon we have active at the time. I realize it's stupid and that it might break our suspension of disbelief, but dammit most of us have already broken that vinculum years ago.
4. I love the Magic System used. Light & Shadow Magic were a good choice... but why two magic meters? Most of us just went to elemental fountains and just held both buttons. Seems unnecessary to me. Again, I mentioned this somewhere else. Why not just share the meter and toggle the magics? Then you even save a button, you end up with a completely free Right Analog stick. Hell, you can even use that completely freed-up Analog Stick and Button for extra SubWeapons or something (The Cross, Axe, Watch, and something else like the Rebound Stone or Bibuti or something could've gone in there... maybe you can even combine subweapons for different combos?).
5. Your camera control was good, but could be better. It makes it tough to look for secrets at times, but it's not that bad.
6. Platforming via shimmying was OK. Reminded me of Castlevania64. Good job on the execution and mixing it up with whip swinging.
7. It's cool that you had unlockable things via the menu. However, it would've added a Castlevania touch if you had a salesman like Baba Yaga or Renon, throughout the stages. This is an optional thing though. The game did just fine without it. it just would have been a nice addition.
8. Great job on the narration. Sir Patrick Stewart narrating the chapters did a good job both storytelling to us what's happening, as well as giving us glimpses that there was something amiss in the story. I'm not sure if the latter was intentional, though.
9. Stick with the fighting system. It was well-executed. Great job, here. However, sometimes the enemies move off-camera and it's annoying when they do that and come in with an unblockable 'white flash' attack that you could not possibly have seen since they were off the camera.
10. The visuals are great. Please continue with the beautiful locales... just make some more of them happen during sunset or night-time. The Crow Witch Malphas's entire locale could've looked even cooler if it were done during early-morning moonlight, with dawn happening as you'd exit with Pan. Or, the other way around. Hmm... perhaps this is a bad example... but the hunting path could've been done at dusk. The entire Castle section was awesome in its execution, though.
That's all I can think of, for now.
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I see nothing wrong with daytime. Day is as prevalent night, and in a story that spans several days, you're going to have day and night. I personally don't believe Mercury Steam should change this too much. Sure, I would have appreciated a night forest level instead of having ALL the forest levels take place during the morning/afternoon/evening, but it didn't irk me to the point of dislike. It could have felt MORE like how Castlevania has traditionally felt, but it didn't feel "not Castlevania". I think the fact that it was never a bright and sunny day helped that. Even when it was "day" it was always off. Always muted, and the shadows were always strong.
Yes, I'm going to mention SCIV. I don't care how many people say that I'm wrong, I got a SCIV vibe from the WHOLE game, even the earlier parts. Maybe it wasn't as dark or muted as SCIV, but then again, does it have to be? Does it have to give me the EXACT same feel? No. SotN didn't give me the exact same feel as Dracula X, so LoS doesn't have to give me the exact same feel as SCIV. It was actually relevant to the plot. More so than the randomly thrown in Egyptian levels in PoR.
I'm torn on the music. I loved it, but I want it to be better. I don't want it to be too much like the older games, because I do think that would hurt the melancholy atmosphere that the game presented, but I'd appreciate a more fleshed out soundtrack, with a bit more of a unique flavor to each song. I don't mind a few songs used multiple times, but I want more level variety. That's ultimately where I see the generic comments coming from. The music felt generic because we kept hearing the same stuff. I personally attribute that to the budget. Sure, it was probably bigger than IGA's budget, but Cox has said it is still a small studio with a fairly small budget. Making more songs with a fully fleshed out orchestra costs money.
The game isn't perfect, but then what is? I'm not under the illusion that Rondo, SCIV, SotN, or even Castlevania were perfect, but I enjoyed them as much as I enjoyed LoS, so I'm looking forward to a sequel. Sure, I have my gripes: The Titans, while I liked them, weren't really Castlevania, and I would have liked some more involved platforming, but the game had me engrossed from start to finish, so I can't really say too much bad about it. There probably won't be as much light and whatnot for sheer plot relevance, and most game designers try improve upon their design from game to game, so I think a lot of the small things will get fixed in the sequel. Ultimately I hope the game doesn't change too much in the sequel.
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Ok, you're defending LoS, but this thread is about what one would like to see in a sequel.
And I'd like Daytime/Night-time. Perhaps some enemies/events/items are only available during certain times of the day. Something like that. Or, perhaps the game is keeping time of your adventure for some particular purpose/achievement/trophy.
It's not necessary, but it'd be nice.
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Ok, you're defending LoS, but this thread is about what one would like to see in a sequel.
And I'd like Daytime/Night-time. Perhaps some enemies/events/items are only available during certain times of the day. Something like that. Or, perhaps the game is keeping time of your adventure for some particular purpose/achievement/trophy.
It's not necessary, but it'd be nice.
I guess I don't want it to change too much in a sequel? Maybe I'm still on my new game high.
If there is one ABSOLUTE thing I want in a sequel it's to get rid of those dark crystals (i.e. the cop-out weapon) and add in some traditional sub weapons.
The subweapons were, IMO, way too few, and holy water and knives just didn't do it for me. I want grimoires and axes.
Heck, they could have just used grimoires for the same use as the crystal. If there was anything that felt wholly un-Castlevania, it was the demon summoning crystal.
Also, I used axes more than anything else in the old games. I miss them Q.Q
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Now that people mention a day/night cycle, I'd love the sequel to be a 3D Simon's Quest-type game. It seems like a lot of the things Mercurysteam was going for would work much better in that format than in a linear game. And they could do things like changing the types of enemies that are out during night/day.
...Fuck it, just remake Simon's Quest in 3D.
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Edit: Wrong thread :P
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...Fuck it, just remake Simon's Quest in 3D.
If they used the Lords of Shadow engine for a Simons Quest style/remake game, I wouldn't complain. It would be awesome.
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I agree with Uzo. Wygol could be easily made into other towns, etc. Hell, drop a garlic in that graveyard and it becomes Aljiba. ;)
And you'get another Carmilla, too.
That'd be really cool. But that's not really a 'sequel'. It'd be a whole new thing.
Lots of the locales looked like they'd work, too. The waterfalls section look like where in CVII you'd pick up the flame whip. The giant lake could be someplace where you'd use the crystal to drain it, etc...
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It'd be neat to see this type of environmental detail in a nonlinear world too.
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If there is one ABSOLUTE thing I want in a sequel it's to get rid of those dark crystals (i.e. the cop-out weapon) and add in some traditional sub weapons.
I don't get why they couldn't have put in Grand Cross instead of that crystal. It would have made a lot more sense.
If they do make a Simon's Quest style game for the sequel, that would be great, but its probably highly unlikely.
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I guess my 2 main complaints:
-Rebalance the subweapons to play a greater part in battle. No problem with the 4 choices given, but you simply didn't have enough to be able to use them a fair amount in combat at the beginning of the game. This can also tie into Jorge's complaint about there not being anything dropping when you whip most of the breakable objects. Doesn't need to be hearts, but they need to retool them to make the weapons a good alternative to whip combat without being overpowered or too limited.
-There were some good songs in the soundtrack, and the slower themes were great for the exploration/non-fighting phases but there really needs to be more music. If it's too hard to make specific themes for each stage, at least give each phase of the game its own specific soundtrack/feel;I should not be hearing the agharta waterfall song anywhere but a level in the land of the lycans. There also is a serious need of some darker and more aggressive music to back the game. I think it was Kurt that mentioned that even the most bland of stages in the previous games could be made identifyable by their music themes and I agree. It would be very hard and unnecessary to make a song for each stage, but I believe each chapter/area should have its own musical themes.
I thoroughly enjoyed the game and it was definitely more than Konami has done to the series in a long time. I respect anyone's opinion that didn't enjoy it or felt that it was too detached from the previous games, but as someone who has been enjoying the games for 16 years now, I liked their take on castlevania even if not exactly as I would've done it. It's been a long time since I've played a castlevania that gave the feeling of an epic adventure.
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I just wish that the game it´s not so divided in segments, like combat areas>>platforming>exploration and it doesn´t feel like a whole, it will be cool that have exploration with some enemies always around.
For example, in Ninja Gaiden you go forward and kill enemies quickly, so will give achieving a better and more fast pace, when you proceed you always have some enemies, not only combat arenas, that make the game more like the classics and more fun to play.
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I just wish that the game it´s not so divided in segments, like combat areas>>platforming>exploration and it doesn´t feel like a whole, it will be cool that have exploration with some enemies always around.
For example, in Ninja Gaiden you go forward and kill enemies quickly, so will give achieving a better and more fast pace, when you proceed you always have some enemies, not only combat arenas, that make the game more like the classics and more fun to play.
While I didn't like how jarring the "Mission Complete!" parts were, I think splitting everything up like that helped a lot as far as helping keep levels varied and load times short, as well as keeping levels from dragging on forever. It would've been nice to have a mode where you just went through level by level without having to see the screens, but unless they kept the world map accessible that would make it hard to backtrack and get upgrades, as well as prevent them from placing abilities in levels that required later skills to get.
I have only played through the game once but I recall that not all the portions required that you had to kill all enemies to pass. There were obviously some spots where the camera forced you to kill everything, but they mixed it up more than IGA's 3D games did at least.
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None of those games had freaking AZTEC RUINS!
I have played all the games you have mentioned, and I love Super Castlevania 4. But it feels entirely different from them. The levels still feel European, they still have an atmosphere of tension and are gloomy. Look how dark the environments are in the forest level in SCV4 (and I don't just mean lighting, I mean the atmosphere). It is completely different from the first 3 levels of Lords.
All of Nagumo's views are completely founded. You are blinding yourself to the problems with this game. I was looking forward to this game and went into it with an open mind, and most of the problems that people had with it early on were still in the final game. Until chapter 6 the atmosphere and levels are nothing like any of the previous Castlevania games. Its okay if you like it, but please don't delude yourself into thinking it is similar to the first 4 Castlevania games. Its not, its unique (and it is a good game, but its different).
The point is that we may disagree on them being problems at all.
Your core argument is something along the lines of "Castlevania is THIS. LoS did THIS, but before doing THIS it also did THAT and THAT and since THAT isn't what Castlevania has been till now, then it's a problem". But with such a mindset, how does the game even improve? How can we expand and continue the franchise if nothing new can be done?
People were making your exact same arguments when SotN was released. People were bitching about Alucard not using a whip-like weapon. People were bitching about Alucard not being a Belmont. People were bitching about the music. People were bitching about it borrowing from Metroid.
The exact. Same. Arguments.
It's odd how most franchises benefit from seeing their developers trying new things; yet Castlevania does not. Instead of going "wow, this game brought us something new!", fans are often "why the hell this game isn't like every other?". Then people wonder why Castlevania is possibly the least successfull popular saga in videogame history. Sure, for us fans the "core elements" are enough to be happy of almost every release (the last few years of IGA have been more than "meh" to me, but that doesn't change the fact that I liked basically every game with the Castlevania name on it), but for a new fan? For a neutral observer? The only observation they can make is that the series is stale in the games that follow its original form, and very close to terrible in the games that divert from that formula (hello, Judgement).
Sure, let's have 120406070000990 games set in Transilvania where you got to kill Dracula with a Belmont or Alucard and fully take place in a castle. Don't be surprised if Castlevania goes extinct.
There is positively no problem with the first stages of LoS. In past Castlevania games, games that lasted 2 to 5 hours, you spent a couple minutes in the wild to get to the castle. In LoS you spend 3 hours in the wild, but the game is 20 hours long. They didn't take ANYTHING that is Castlevania out of the game. They added something more. They experimented. They tried to expand the mythos. They set the game in a very different age (CV's "core" gothic horror works best in the 1400-1800 period, this is a medieval episode, no wonder it has a somewhat fantasy feel).
If it is a problem that the game tried to be faithful and yet attempt to bring something new to the saga, then we may as well start begging for HD remakes of the old games on PSN and be done with it. I respect your perspective, but it's the same kind of formulaic approach to the saga that has been suffocating it for 15 years. Castlevania has a lot of potential. Its scope and lore and dept and legacy vastly overshadow games like God of War or even Resident Evil and Devil May Cry, and YET Castlevania has a tiny fraction of the popularity of those games. Stop to ask yourself why. Is Castlevania worse or less appealing than those games? Or was it held down for too long by conservative design? Once again, one could see IGA as the guy who kept CV on life support (and as someone who likes the handheld games, the temptation would be strong), but you need to ask yourself if the games could have been more than that if someone dared a bit more.
And the fact that you consider it problematic that LoS has outdoor areas, and feel that that is a betrayal to the saga, while you're perfectly fine about the 2035 games simply tell us that you have different priorities in what makes a Castlevania game. But once again, if 3 hours of woods and ruins disconnect you more from the lore of the saga than an episode set 30 years in the future where Dracula reincarnates in a college student who fights enemies that would be at home in something like One Piece, then you need to accept that I can't credit your judgement of objectiveness. You have your preferences, and I massively disagree with them, and neither of us can claim to be closer to the true essence of the saga.
But until our mentality is to dismiss anything that isn't a reskin of the same game we've been playing for 20 years, we're always gonna get that, and eventually the fanbase will be so small that we will be knowing each other by name. Personally I'm done with being conservative. If tomorrow we get a phenomenal game set in 500 A.D. where a Belmont ancestor travels to the Middle East to investigate the origins of a plague that is decimating Europe and eventually finding out the undead are behind it, I'll be fine with it being Castlevania. I'll be fine if it deals with fighting mummies in a pyramid instead of vampires in a castle, as long as the horror elements are conserved, as long as it ties to the overarching story - maybe by telling us how vampires came to be, or foreshadowing Dracula, or setting up the Belmont legacy, or whatever as long as it does bring something new to the saga - and as long as it plays like a Castlevania game, I'll be fine.
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I agree with Valtiel here.
Change is something that cannot be avoided sometimes. In order to promote growth and improvement, one must try different things. To do the same thing over and over does not lead to evolution but more often then not stagnation and decay. To not promote some form of change is basically embracing the death of this series.
In regards to change however there is also the opposite end of the spectrum in which I do happen to have an issue with. Changing so much and at such a drastic degree that the game itself becomes something completely unrecognizable and completely abandoning all aspects to it's predecessors.
A balance should be maintained. Steady progression and evolution but not such massive scale changes to an extreme. This is where I feel Lords of Shadow fits in this balanced neutral ground. It adds enough new conventions and unused concepts in the series before, but does not go so far to entirely alienate the existing concepts, It's a blend between the older Castlevania and as well the new aspects that are introduced in this reboot.
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The point is that we may disagree on them being problems at all.
Your core argument is something along the lines of "Castlevania is THIS. LoS did THIS, but before doing THIS it also did THAT and THAT and since THAT isn't what Castlevania has been till now, then it's a problem". But with such a mindset, how does the game even improve? How can we expand and continue the franchise if nothing new can be done?
People were making your exact same arguments when SotN was released. People were bitching about Alucard not using a whip-like weapon. People were bitching about Alucard not being a Belmont. People were bitching about the music. People were bitching about it borrowing from Metroid.
The exact. Same. Arguments.
It's odd how most franchises benefit from seeing their developers trying new things; yet Castlevania does not. Instead of going "wow, this game brought us something new!", fans are often "why the hell this game isn't like every other?". Then people wonder why Castlevania is possibly the least successfull popular saga in videogame history. Sure, for us fans the "core elements" are enough to be happy of almost every release (the last few years of IGA have been more than "meh" to me, but that doesn't change the fact that I liked basically every game with the Castlevania name on it), but for a new fan? For a neutral observer? The only observation they can make is that the series is stale in the games that follow its original form, and very close to terrible in the games that divert from that formula (hello, Judgement).
Sure, let's have 120406070000990 games set in Transilvania where you got to kill Dracula with a Belmont or Alucard and fully take place in a castle. Don't be surprised if Castlevania goes extinct.
There is positively no problem with the first stages of LoS. In past Castlevania games, games that lasted 2 to 5 hours, you spent a couple minutes in the wild to get to the castle. In LoS you spend 3 hours in the wild, but the game is 20 hours long. They didn't take ANYTHING that is Castlevania out of the game. They added something more. They experimented. They tried to expand the mythos. They set the game in a very different age (CV's "core" gothic horror works best in the 1400-1800 period, this is a medieval episode, no wonder it has a somewhat fantasy feel).
If it is a problem that the game tried to be faithful and yet attempt to bring something new to the saga, then we may as well start begging for HD remakes of the old games on PSN and be done with it. I respect your perspective, but it's the same kind of formulaic approach to the saga that has been suffocating it for 15 years. Castlevania has a lot of potential. Its scope and lore and dept and legacy vastly overshadow games like God of War or even Resident Evil and Devil May Cry, and YET Castlevania has a tiny fraction of the popularity of those games. Stop to ask yourself why. Is Castlevania worse or less appealing than those games? Or was it held down for too long by conservative design? Once again, one could see IGA as the guy who kept CV on life support (and as someone who likes the handheld games, the temptation would be strong), but you need to ask yourself if the games could have been more than that if someone dared a bit more.
And the fact that you consider it problematic that LoS has outdoor areas, and feel that that is a betrayal to the saga, while you're perfectly fine about the 2035 games simply tell us that you have different priorities in what makes a Castlevania game. But once again, if 3 hours of woods and ruins disconnect you more from the lore of the saga than an episode set 30 years in the future where Dracula reincarnates in a college student who fights enemies that would be at home in something like One Piece, then you need to accept that I can't credit your judgement of objectiveness. You have your preferences, and I massively disagree with them, and neither of us can claim to be closer to the true essence of the saga.
But until our mentality is to dismiss anything that isn't a reskin of the same game we've been playing for 20 years, we're always gonna get that, and eventually the fanbase will be so small that we will be knowing each other by name. Personally I'm done with being conservative. If tomorrow we get a phenomenal game set in 500 A.D. where a Belmont ancestor travels to the Middle East to investigate the origins of a plague that is decimating Europe and eventually finding out the undead are behind it, I'll be fine with it being Castlevania. I'll be fine if it deals with fighting mummies in a pyramid instead of vampires in a castle, as long as the horror elements are conserved, as long as it ties to the overarching story - maybe by telling us how vampires came to be, or foreshadowing Dracula, or setting up the Belmont legacy, or whatever as long as it does bring something new to the saga - and as long as it plays like a Castlevania game, I'll be fine.
Seriously! I don't know how some people can say that LoS isn't "Castlevania enough", but then in the next breath claim that something like AoS, DoS, PoR, SotN is. Personally, I think they all are. It just irks me that for years I've been seeing people on this forum complain that they're tired of the metroidvania formula and want a more linear oldschool stage-by-stage progession, and when someone finally delivers, they still bitch and moan. Just no satisfying some folks I suppose. LoS is so damn "Castlevania" it's oozing holy-water and chain-whips out it's freakin' ears. It's as if some people have no ability to enjoy or wrap their minds around the oldschool aspects of LoS, simply because their minds can't compute something new into the CV experience.
Playing through LoS again, and the stage progression, especially for the first few chapters, progresses very similarly to CV4. Hell, MS even said that CV4 was their main inspiration. I wouldn't be surprised if the idea for the ancient ruins and the society which built them in LoS came as a direct result of just playing CV4 over the years and simply imagining where all the ruins and whatnot came from.
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we'll i finally got to play LOS 2 days ago and i must say i was disapointed as a CV fan :-[
i honestly think i would have enjoyed it more if it didn't have the CV name tagged on to it because IMO it wasn't really a CV game for me.
like some have said before in later chapters it starts to get a CV feeling but a CV game is supposed to feel like CV games FROM THE START IMO.
that being said some things i would do for CVLOS sequel is
1.better music
as many have pointed out this game really failed to capture the excellent catchy music we CV fans have grown to love over the years.
if your a xbox 360 owner like myself your lucky enough to be able to play your own CV music (i actually have a whole CV playlist on my hardrive ;D) but i would have to bring back Michiru Yamane to compose this time around.
2.less high fantasy stages
sure daytime stages have been in CV games before but LOS IMO took it a little to far.
i like my CV games dark,gothic,and grim and NOT with a lord of the rings feel to it.
3.better story.
i really disliked the story twist in this game a(most notably gabriel becomeing Dracula) so i would like for the sequel to have a more captivating story instead of lame story twist.
4.BRING BACK A REAL BELMONT! :D
and thats my take on making a sequel
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I'm looking forward to a sequel, I just want to see somethings that are actually from Castlevania this time, like enemies and music. Also, I hope there's actually a Slogra fihght next time around. That was such a major disappointment to me
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The Slogra was probably one of the best creature/enemy designs in LoS too. ]:
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Bring back the Chupacabra. He was great.
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The point is that we may disagree on them being problems at all.
Your core argument is something along the lines of "Castlevania is THIS. LoS did THIS, but before doing THIS it also did THAT and THAT and since THAT isn't what Castlevania has been till now, then it's a problem". But with such a mindset, how does the game even improve? How can we expand and continue the franchise if nothing new can be done?
People were making your exact same arguments when SotN was released. People were bitching about Alucard not using a whip-like weapon. People were bitching about Alucard not being a Belmont. People were bitching about the music. People were bitching about it borrowing from Metroid.
The exact. Same. Arguments.
It's odd how most franchises benefit from seeing their developers trying new things; yet Castlevania does not. Instead of going "wow, this game brought us something new!", fans are often "why the hell this game isn't like every other?". Then people wonder why Castlevania is possibly the least successfull popular saga in videogame history. Sure, for us fans the "core elements" are enough to be happy of almost every release (the last few years of IGA have been more than "meh" to me, but that doesn't change the fact that I liked basically every game with the Castlevania name on it), but for a new fan? For a neutral observer? The only observation they can make is that the series is stale in the games that follow its original form, and very close to terrible in the games that divert from that formula (hello, Judgement).
Sure, let's have 120406070000990 games set in Transilvania where you got to kill Dracula with a Belmont or Alucard and fully take place in a castle. Don't be surprised if Castlevania goes extinct.
There is positively no problem with the first stages of LoS. In past Castlevania games, games that lasted 2 to 5 hours, you spent a couple minutes in the wild to get to the castle. In LoS you spend 3 hours in the wild, but the game is 20 hours long. They didn't take ANYTHING that is Castlevania out of the game. They added something more. They experimented. They tried to expand the mythos. They set the game in a very different age (CV's "core" gothic horror works best in the 1400-1800 period, this is a medieval episode, no wonder it has a somewhat fantasy feel).
If it is a problem that the game tried to be faithful and yet attempt to bring something new to the saga, then we may as well start begging for HD remakes of the old games on PSN and be done with it. I respect your perspective, but it's the same kind of formulaic approach to the saga that has been suffocating it for 15 years. Castlevania has a lot of potential. Its scope and lore and dept and legacy vastly overshadow games like God of War or even Resident Evil and Devil May Cry, and YET Castlevania has a tiny fraction of the popularity of those games. Stop to ask yourself why. Is Castlevania worse or less appealing than those games? Or was it held down for too long by conservative design? Once again, one could see IGA as the guy who kept CV on life support (and as someone who likes the handheld games, the temptation would be strong), but you need to ask yourself if the games could have been more than that if someone dared a bit more.
And the fact that you consider it problematic that LoS has outdoor areas, and feel that that is a betrayal to the saga, while you're perfectly fine about the 2035 games simply tell us that you have different priorities in what makes a Castlevania game. But once again, if 3 hours of woods and ruins disconnect you more from the lore of the saga than an episode set 30 years in the future where Dracula reincarnates in a college student who fights enemies that would be at home in something like One Piece, then you need to accept that I can't credit your judgement of objectiveness. You have your preferences, and I massively disagree with them, and neither of us can claim to be closer to the true essence of the saga.
But until our mentality is to dismiss anything that isn't a reskin of the same game we've been playing for 20 years, we're always gonna get that, and eventually the fanbase will be so small that we will be knowing each other by name. Personally I'm done with being conservative. If tomorrow we get a phenomenal game set in 500 A.D. where a Belmont ancestor travels to the Middle East to investigate the origins of a plague that is decimating Europe and eventually finding out the undead are behind it, I'll be fine with it being Castlevania. I'll be fine if it deals with fighting mummies in a pyramid instead of vampires in a castle, as long as the horror elements are conserved, as long as it ties to the overarching story - maybe by telling us how vampires came to be, or foreshadowing Dracula, or setting up the Belmont legacy, or whatever as long as it does bring something new to the saga - and as long as it plays like a Castlevania game, I'll be fine.
What? I'm not even gonna read that word salad you dropped on us. Try to be more concise next time.
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Eh, it's not that bad, Crisis.
You've read worse, there was no need to post a post about how you're not gonna read something.
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Eh, it's not that bad, Crisis.
You've read worse, there was no need to post a post about how you're not gonna read something.
I can stand some trolling, don't worry. I'm quite used to wall of text accusations, and heck, I probably deserve them to a point ;D .
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Alright then.
I'm finding myself on 'moderator' mode more these days, what with the influx of threads and info.
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my list new characters for the sequel ( not the characters i am going to listed come from fictional Gothic horror novels)
1. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde)
2 Lord Ruthven ( The Vampyre)
3 Clarimonde ( La Morte Amoureuse)
4 Sir Francis Varney ( Feast of Blood)
5 Lord Oakendale ( The Horrors of Oakendale Abbey)
6 Manfred ( The Castle of Otranto)
7 Count Wolfenbach ( The Castle of Wolfenbach)
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It'd be interesting to have more fresh blood from other mythology and literature! It beats reusing Castlevania character names.
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I think elemental magic would be a nice addition. Combine the light and dark with the elemental to get different effects.
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It'd be interesting to have more fresh blood from other mythology and literature! It beats reusing Castlevania character names.
^^ That's actually what I wanted to see in LoS opposed to reusing Olrox, Brauner and such names(though I didn't have a problem with Carmilla). Find some way to worm in the Marquis de Sade into the mix.
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Dracula's soul brother Prince Mamuwalde is long over due for his Castlevaina apperence.
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I Think that the DLC thats being worked on should set after Lords of Shadow and cover Gabriels Transformation into Dracula while being hunted by his Order for his actions in LOS. Gabriel should lose the ability to use light magic at the 1/2 mark of the game - only allowing him to use Shadow Magic in conjunction with his new abilities.
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I Think that the DLC thats being worked on should set after Lords of Shadow and cover Gabriels Transformation into Dracula while being hunted by his Order for his actions in LOS. Gabriel should lose the ability to use light magic at the 1/2 mark of the game - only allowing him to use Shadow Magic in conjunction with his new abilities.
And get health from bloodsucking. Mmmmmmh.
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I just finished watching the entire walkthrough on youtube and feel that I need to share my crazy opinions...
Quick comment about the game : the level design, rivals and events only became interesting to me after the first third of the game (after Cornell)...
As for the storyline, here is a script excerpt after the fight against Satan (comments in bold) :
Gabriel: I am alive? No, I do not want this. Why has my life been given back to me?
Marie: It is your fate. You have been given back what was wrongfully taken from you. To repent your sins. To make amends. (My guess is that this is understood as a divine punishment for Gabriel. To stay alive in order to repent, and constantly feel the pain of not being with Marie. That would be enough to hold a grudge against God)
Gabriel: But without you..?
Marie: You freed them all, you saved us all, my Gabriel.
Gabriel: I couldn't save you.
Marie: I knew I could not tell you or despair would have eroded your resolve and everything would have been lost. (So actually she didn't fully trust him or his good heart... that's a cruel betrayal from the one you love)
Marie: I had faith in you, hoped that would be strong enough to free the world and you did not let me down. (This part of the script was added to keep the player's mind away from what I've pinpointed in the previous sentence)
Gabriel: I am not worthy of your faith, your love... I am nothing. (Notice how Gabriel can't seem to focus on the positive outcomes of all of this. He keeps thinking about his pain and negative feelings)
Marie: You are a good man Gabriel. You are as God intended, fallible yet capable of great things. I loved you then as I love you now. I see before me a man who has regained God's favor and who has my forgiveness and the forgiveness of all the lost souls in this world. You have saved us all and... you have saved yourself. (Still trying to convince him that everything's fine...)
[Gabriel reaches for the mask]
Marie: The mask is a powerful device. It allows us to see through God's eyes.
Gabriel: Can it really bring the dead back? (See? He doesn't give a damn about having saved the world. He only wants to be with Marie again)
[They kiss, she takes the mask away]
Gabriel: A fool's hope...
Marie: It is too late for me my love. I cannot go back.
Gabriel: No... no, don't go. (Notice how she approaches her hand to take his, but he holds out his "gauntleted" hand and she backs away)
Marie: It is my time, the light is calling. I'm not afraid.
Gabriel: No, please stay. Stay with me!
Marie: It's beautiful Gabriel... so beautiful... It's calling to me... calling (These words make him feel that she is taken away from him. Grudge against God rises over 9000 :P)
Gabriel: I love you Marie, I love you... forgive me.
[She vanishes, Claudia appears and vanishes too, Gabriel falls on his knees, looks above and cries. Then the camera freezes on Zobek's mask. Credits roll.]
And after that is the ending in the 21st century where Gabriel is Dracula and seems to live as a hermit and doesn't harm humans.
So why did he become a vampire and became known as the Prince of Darkness ?
Maybe Gabriel used Zobek's mask to become a vampire, or was bitten by one (could be a normal enemy or Laura). He had to make things such as ruthless ruling, war or dark magic stuff in order to become known as the Prince of Darkness. He learned romanian at some point. "Eu sunt Dracul" could translate as "I am Dracula" or "I am the Dragon".
As for Zobek, it seemed pretty obvious that he died in the game, burned by Satan. So why the heck is he still alive? He wishes to fight Satan. For Gabriel, joining the fight would also mean fighting for God...
Dracula: I cannot die, yet I cannot live.
Zobek: Help me and I can free you of your immortality (So basically Gabriel has to be used by and rely on others again in order to find peace and happiness)
[Camera zooms onto Dracula, he seems to be giving a thought about the situation, but shouts and vanishes with bat screeching sounds]
Zobek: Soon old friend, soon it will be over.
Judging from their looks, Dracula has the casting of an antihero and Zobek that of a boring helper/rival. Based on that it would not be surprising that a sequel would feature Dracula as the playable character in a Legacy of Kain-esque game.
If the game is truly a reboot of the Castlevania story (like the new Batman movies), Gabriel is not Leon Belmont's ancestor and most likely never fell in love again and never had children. There is no Vampire Killer whip made by Rinaldo's alchemy and Sara Trantoul's soul. Mathias Cronqvist most likely never existed. So there's no point in assuming the previous Castlevania characters and events are part of the new storyline.
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^^^^^I Like your explanation of the ending! Good job!^^^^
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A fine analysis of the Marie-Gabriel scene. A lot of things (like the gauntlet thing) i didn't even notice. They have a lot of potential with the story hope they don't F it up.
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You didn't mention that when he puts on the mask, he sees her alive, that's when he says "A fool's hope". It's almost like he's just wearing the SotN Holy Glasses, haha. He only wears it for maybe 5 seconds.
But yes, I like your deconstruction of the scene. Good jorb.
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Haha, yeah.The ending made me think of Marie as a bit of a jerk, tricking and using Gabriel like that. Well, Gabriel gets used by everyone in LoS.
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So, I didn't play the game but I watched a walkthrough on youtube. Can't believe I actually did that, but what's done is done... :-\
Anyway, I am MIGHTY confused. Maybe cause I only watched a walkthrough and missed parts of the story. Or maybe cause the story wasn't all that great to begin with? Help me out;
Can someone explain what the two different masks really do? I understand the devil mask (or whatever it's called) has the power to control people and make them do evil things. What about the other mask, the one that this entre game is all about? It doesn't bring the dead back, but is there another purpose? Can you really "rule the universe" or whatever Zobek says, or was that also a false statement, made up by Satan? I don't trust Zobek cause he was duped all along... In the end, Marie says the mask is a "powerful device". In what way? After watching the walkthrough I felt the mask was a goddamn piece of plastic hoax. I'm thinking the person playing the walkthrough skipped something, or I was just not paying enough attention to what was said, cause I can't get this storyline together in my head. I'm not even sure exactly why Satan was the final boss, and what his intentions were. Did he want the mask or did he not?
The ending doesn't mention the masks either. I'm guessing Gabe/Drac has both of them when Zobek comes to visit him in the ending. Or something. But Zobek says he and Gabe will become Satan's pets. Which means that Satan already have the masks? Or is Satan "above" the masks? If so, the masks are kinda irrelevant in the greater scheme of things. It's very confusing to have an ending that takes place a 1000 years after the actual game. I can't wrap my head around it.
I'm not the right person to talk about what I want in a possible sequel, cause I haven't even played LoS. I did notice that enemies can take an awful lot of damage though and it looked a bit tedious at times. Would you say the enemies had too much health? Surely there must be other ways to make a game challenging. It absolutely kills the pace and I can totally see why this game is 15-20 hours long - drawn out combat! Other than that it looked like a very classy game, and it actually was a blast to watch, lol! I'd like to see a greater variety in enemies and maybe a few more classic CV monsters. Also the camera seemed a little weird at times. I bet the developers think they did a great job with it, mainly because they already know where everything is in the game. For the rest of us it's slightly disorienting. I was impressed that the person playing actually knew where he was supposed to go sometimes.
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Goo why would you do that? You ruined an experience I can tell you that much
lol @ the masks. I'm sure we will see more of them in the future.
Enemies take a lot of damage if you aren't fighting them correctly and exploiting weaknesses, that much is true.
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confusion
The whole God/Devil mask duality was kind awkward for me as well. It's never explained where they come from, or what their true purpose is. Marie explains the God Mask allows its wearer to "see through the eyes of God," while Zobek gives a much more distinctive description on what it can do (destroy the universe yadda yadda). Satan wanted it because he thought it would make him equal to God. When Gabe put it on, all he could see was a flesh Marie, so what was Satan seeing when he was wearing it??
I'm guessing the upcoming DLC will shed more light on this subject.
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i don't understand why people is still asking "Why is Zobek alive?"
The "modern" Zobek is different to the old Zobek. Remember that Zobek becomes The Lords of the Dead after wearing the Mask. The mask was unharmed after Satan's fight. Conclusion? Zobek lives in the mask, he only needs a wearer and BOOM he's back. It's pretty obvious IMO.
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To clarify, Zobek became "Lord of the Dead" right after his good half ascended into Heaven. He is basically the Death of this new LoS-timeline.. which is why he's still around in the epilogue.
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But Satan wore the mask and he wasn't Zobek. zobek is just zobek.
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But Satan wore the mask and he wasn't Zobek. zobek is just zobek.
Zobek is Death. Third Lord of Shadow, of the Dead
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But Satan wore the mask and he wasn't Zobek. zobek is just zobek.
I'm talking about DEVIL'S MASK not God mask, Devil's Mask was the one Zobek used to become the lord of the Dead, God's mask the one Satan used and Zobek wanted. my theory is, Devil's mask contains Lord of the Dead's power and soul. That's why Zobek is alive and well in 1999 (?) (And why he's different then) Devil's mask was not destroyed.
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zobek is zobek is zobek is death is zobek
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zobek is zobek is zobek is death is zobek
Dumbest post ever? :P :joke:
Yeah Zobek is essentially Death (He said "The third Lord, Death himself" in a level prologue) however that doesn't mean he's OUR Death. That one is probably a major Necromancer that teamed with Gabriel somehow.
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I don't see what all the confusion is about. There is no Death like we know him in the previous games (Incarnate) Zobek is just a very powerful necromancer with power over the dead just like Cornell is master of the werewolf and Carmilla of the vampires. Besides, the three lords represent the 3 powers of Dracula: The vampire we all know him as, the wolf that he can transform into(although he never does :P Alucard uses it), and the ability to resurrect and command death.
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I just hope that if future games elaborate on Gabriel becoming Dracula, they don't spell every little detail out for us, like the Metal Gear series. Not necessarily saying this will happen if Kojima Productions stays involved with future games, but I digress.
Also, I'm kinda hoping Dracula doesn't become a protagonist for any of the games. I'd rather him stay as the main villain of the series more than anything else. And I really hope they don't start the sequel off in present day, either. Don't think they will, but who knows.
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I don't see what all the confusion is about. There is no Death like we know him in the previous games (Incarnate) Zobek is just a very powerful necromancer with power over the dead just like Cornell is master of the werewolf and Carmilla of the vampires. Besides, the three lords represent the 3 powers of Dracula: The vampire we all know him as, the wolf that he can transform into(although he never does :P Alucard uses it), and the ability to resurrect and command death.
And yet we go back to the prophecy that was established in the game. "A Pure Hearted Warrior will claim the power of the Lords of Shadow as his own"
This may very well allude to his eventual transformation into Dracula, as in Gabriel's mastery over the three powers that Dracula had dominance over individually. It may well be that because he has mastery over those powers is the very reason he became Dracula.
It would make sense if you look at it from that perspective.
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Though I wonder why Gabe becomes a vampire and not a lycan, or a necromancer even. Or maybe, as Dracula, he is all of them? Was he bitten by a vampire? In the Carmilla battle I watched (as I mentioned before, I did not play the game) he is bitten by Carmilla, but I don't think that was scripted. It just looked like Carmillas grabbing move. Damn it's hard to know these things when you haven't actually played the game yourself, lol!
Also, what do you think became of the Combat Cross/Vampire Killer? Does Gabe still have it even after he becomes Dracula? You don't see it in the ending. It would make sense if the Vampire Killer is the only weapon that can defeat Dracula, since it's the weapon that kind of made Gabriel into Drac. If he had used it to kill Marie and Claudia too, that theory would've been even more appropriate. The weapon would be OMG CURSED and Dracula would fear it cause it's stained with his.. dunno... sins.
But that unfortunately didn't happen.
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He is all of them. Vampire is the easiest to look at lololol
Who knows we may see him change into other forms in later games?
As far as the combat cross goes its still to early to tell. They might have a new protagonist use a broken version of it that he finds years after lords of shadow take place.
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I also wonder why Zobek killed Baba Yaga? He said something about Baba mentioning the "King of Angels" or something, which he didn't like. I may need to go back and watch that cutscene again...
Or did Zobek just kill her because Baba was distracting Gabriel with the scarecrow quest and the musical box? Though Gabe really had no choice. If Zobek wanted him to get to the Land of the Dead quicker, he should've told Gabe how to get there. Though maybe that would've been suspicious... However, I don't quite understand why Zobek didn't attempt to take the two pieces of the mask from Gabe immediately after he killed Carmilla. He already had the final piece...
On topic: I really hope that Mercury Steam spends as much time on the environments in the sequel, even if the game takes place in present day. Everything from the landscapes to the architecture was soooo darn beautiful and varied.
Also, about the sequel; The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to believe that the next game WILL in fact have a modern setting. Dave Cox already said he doesn't want to become "Mr Castlevania" and that he would like to make one more game and then pass the torch to someone else. With that in mind the sequel to LoS should deal with the things that happens in the ending, or else it will never ever be touched upon. Unless Mercury Steam makes a third and even fourth Castlevania without Cox involvement.
I bet the next game will be:
1) NYC-esque setting
2) Dracula goes to defeat Satan
Or maybe not at all. Dunno.
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I'd love to go rooftop-jumping with a modern Belmont, looking for Drac somewhere in New York. There are a lot of really cool Gothic places in NYC where he looks like he could lurk. And locales that serve a Castlevania purpose, too.
There are sewers, some areas of Central Park at night, the Chrysler Building...
...wait, now I wanna play Parasite Eve! xD
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please no
i dont want the next game to be in the future, with all the potential for new storys, new and old characters, the whole Dracula/Belmont dinamic, and retellings that future games have with the 900 plus years from each point and putting the next game right in the future would waste all that potential
Also about the Zobek discussion, the character entry for Lord of the Dead describes him as death personified, yeah not the traditional Death from the older CVs, but still, he is Death nonetheless
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I'd love to go rooftop-jumping with a modern Belmont, looking for Drac somewhere in New York. There are a lot of really cool Gothic places in NYC where he looks like he could lurk. And locales that serve a Castlevania purpose, too.
There are sewers, some areas of Central Park at night, the Chrysler Building...
...wait, now I wanna play Parasite Eve! xD
I'm down with any time setting as long as they don't abandon the gothic horror element of the game. Parts of Lords of Shadow kinda did that; whatever they do with the sequel, it should be much more horror-inspired than fantasy-inspired.
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I also wonder why Zobek killed Baba Yaga? He said something about Baba mentioning the "King of Angels" or something, which he didn't like. I may need to go back and watch that cutscene again...
Or did Zobek just kill her because Baba was distracting Gabriel with the scarecrow quest and the musical box? Though Gabe really had no choice. If Zobek wanted him to get to the Land of the Dead quicker, he should've told Gabe how to get there. Though maybe that would've been suspicious... However, I don't quite understand why Zobek didn't attempt to take the two pieces of the mask from Gabe immediately after he killed Carmilla. He already had the final piece...
We don't really know why Zobek killed Baba Yaga, but it probably has something to do with her being a powerful witch. He didn't want anyone interfering with his plans, and she probably had the power to cause him some problems. That's also probably why he sent Gabriel down a path that would lead him to killing Malphas.
The Lords of Shadow didn't own the pieces of the Mask, their heavenly counterparts did. The Lords only guarded the "alters" where Gabriel spoke the words and the Mask pieces fell from heaven. Zobek's heavenly counterpart wouldn't have given his piece of the Mask up to him. That's why Zobek had to trick Gabriel into thinking he had defeated the Lord of the Dead, then he let him freely take the Mask.
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Please guys, stop talking about the next game taking place in NY, dont even mention it. It would be simply grotesque :-\
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The Lords of Shadow didn't own the pieces of the Mask, their heavenly counterparts did. The Lords only guarded the "alters" where Gabriel spoke the words and the Mask pieces fell from heaven. Zobek's heavenly counterpart wouldn't have given his piece of the Mask up to him. That's why Zobek had to trick Gabriel into thinking he had defeated the Lord of the Dead, then he let him freely take the Mask.
Oh, of course, I forgot about the heavenly "twins". Thanks for clearing that up!
Though I'm not really getting how Zobek could use the Dracolich dude for this purpose. When Gabriel killed Dracolich and uttered the words, why did the final piece of the mask fall down from the sky? Zobeks heavenly counterpart was still alive and kickin at that point, but gave up the piece of the mask anyway? Or was it the fact that gabriel thought he had killed the Lord that made all the difference? That is... unheard of.
I also wonder why the heavenly counterparts wouldn't get their acts together and put a stop to their demonic leftovers on earth. Though that is probably not how things work around there... :(
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Zobeks heavenly counterpart was still alive and kickin at that point, but gave up the piece of the mask anyway? Or was it the fact that gabriel thought he had killed the Lord that made all the difference?
^ This, the music, and that piece of shit (sorry, i just beated the game) that goes after the credits, are the only things keeping me from 100% loving this game.
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Oh, of course, I forgot about the heavenly "twins". Thanks for clearing that up!
Though I'm not really getting how Zobek could use the Dracolich dude for this purpose. When Gabriel killed Dracolich and uttered the words, why did the final piece of the mask fall down from the sky? Zobeks heavenly counterpart was still alive and kickin at that point, but gave up the piece of the mask anyway? Or was it the fact that gabriel thought he had killed the Lord that made all the difference? That is... unheard of.
I also wonder why the heavenly counterparts wouldn't get their acts together and put a stop to their demonic leftovers on earth. Though that is probably not how things work around there... :(
Simple explanation for how Zobek used the dracolich dude: Read the bestiary entry for the necromancer, it says that they are made necromancers by Zobeck. After they die he gives them some of his life force.
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Oh, of course, I forgot about the heavenly "twins". Thanks for clearing that up!
Though I'm not really getting how Zobek could use the Dracolich dude for this purpose. When Gabriel killed Dracolich and uttered the words, why did the final piece of the mask fall down from the sky? Zobeks heavenly counterpart was still alive and kickin at that point, but gave up the piece of the mask anyway? Or was it the fact that gabriel thought he had killed the Lord that made all the difference? That is... unheard of.
I also wonder why the heavenly counterparts wouldn't get their acts together and put a stop to their demonic leftovers on earth. Though that is probably not how things work around there... :(
Yeah, when Gabriel recited those Latin words, he was basically asking for the Mask. The first two heavenly counterparts should have died at the same time as the Lords of Shadow, but the Mask pieces didn't fall until it was asked for by a person with pure heart.
The heavenly counterparts couldn't really do anything to the Lords of Shadow, and the Lords couldn't do anything to them. That was one of Zobek's complaints, that they were all stuck in a stalemate. None of them were willing to work together or against their counterparts.
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I don't think the next game has to necessarily follow Gabriel.
Actually, Mercury Steam could pull a Metal Gear Solid 2 here.
First chapter, you get to play Gabriel in his new state; couple hours of him going back to Castlevania and reclaiming the castle for himself, taking the name Dracula and becoming the serie's villain; foreshadowing and NPC introduction, and probably him subduing Zobek/Death for good.
Cue Chapter 2 - something like 99 years later, a young guy called Belmont... and you know how that ends.
They really got the chance to play the 100 years mechanic good this time around.
Next game could be about explaining how Gabe becomes Dracula, how the Belmont clan comes to be and how the two are tied; would probably still be medieval in tone and style. Probably still medieval in tone. But I'd totally be up for the series actually showing the passing of time, a la Assassin's Creed. A XV century episode would look radically different, and I wouldn't mind an *actual* Victorian episode.
Heck, I'd take the Castlevania structure in a direction where half the game is made of chasing Drac or his minions across Europe, until you get to the actual Castle for the final showdown. That thing is alive. Make it move around. Make it change with the times. And for the 1999, DO pull a DMC3. Castlevania popping right into the middle of central park. The forces of evil taking over - full scale world vampire war, and a single Belmont infiltrating the castle to save the day. The castle would look gothic in 1999 too, and the whip would still be the only way to take out Drac.
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I'd love to go rooftop-jumping with a modern Belmont, looking for Drac somewhere in New York. There are a lot of really cool Gothic places in NYC where he looks like he could lurk. And locales that serve a Castlevania purpose, too.
There are sewers, some areas of Central Park at night, the Chrysler Building...
I'm still hesitant on pushing the series into present time for the next game, but what you said right here made it sound pretty cool. I guess I could still enjoy it if they did it like that. I kind of dismissed the idea too quickly, I guess.
But I'd totally be up for the series actually showing the passing of time, a la Assassin's Creed.
I love this idea. They could keep the epilogue's events fresh in our minds while establishing a new history for Dracula and the Belmonts. This would be excellent.
Also, I'm not so sure why Satan needed to be in the series now, but the thought of a war between Hell, Drac and Zobek (and an army of monsters?), and the Belmont Clan sounds pretty badass. I hope it plays out that way.
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The point is that we may disagree on them being problems at all.
Your core argument is something along the lines of "Castlevania is THIS. LoS did THIS, but before doing THIS it also did THAT and THAT and since THAT isn't what Castlevania has been till now, then it's a problem". But with such a mindset, how does the game even improve? How can we expand and continue the franchise if nothing new can be done?
People were making your exact same arguments when SotN was released. People were bitching about Alucard not using a whip-like weapon. People were bitching about Alucard not being a Belmont. People were bitching about the music. People were bitching about it borrowing from Metroid.
The exact. Same. Arguments.
It's odd how most franchises benefit from seeing their developers trying new things; yet Castlevania does not. Instead of going "wow, this game brought us something new!", fans are often "why the hell this game isn't like every other?". Then people wonder why Castlevania is possibly the least successfull popular saga in videogame history. Sure, for us fans the "core elements" are enough to be happy of almost every release (the last few years of IGA have been more than "meh" to me, but that doesn't change the fact that I liked basically every game with the Castlevania name on it), but for a new fan? For a neutral observer? The only observation they can make is that the series is stale in the games that follow its original form, and very close to terrible in the games that divert from that formula (hello, Judgement).
Sure, let's have 120406070000990 games set in Transilvania where you got to kill Dracula with a Belmont or Alucard and fully take place in a castle. Don't be surprised if Castlevania goes extinct.
There is positively no problem with the first stages of LoS. In past Castlevania games, games that lasted 2 to 5 hours, you spent a couple minutes in the wild to get to the castle. In LoS you spend 3 hours in the wild, but the game is 20 hours long. They didn't take ANYTHING that is Castlevania out of the game. They added something more. They experimented. They tried to expand the mythos. They set the game in a very different age (CV's "core" gothic horror works best in the 1400-1800 period, this is a medieval episode, no wonder it has a somewhat fantasy feel).
If it is a problem that the game tried to be faithful and yet attempt to bring something new to the saga, then we may as well start begging for HD remakes of the old games on PSN and be done with it. I respect your perspective, but it's the same kind of formulaic approach to the saga that has been suffocating it for 15 years. Castlevania has a lot of potential. Its scope and lore and dept and legacy vastly overshadow games like God of War or even Resident Evil and Devil May Cry, and YET Castlevania has a tiny fraction of the popularity of those games. Stop to ask yourself why. Is Castlevania worse or less appealing than those games? Or was it held down for too long by conservative design? Once again, one could see IGA as the guy who kept CV on life support (and as someone who likes the handheld games, the temptation would be strong), but you need to ask yourself if the games could have been more than that if someone dared a bit more.
And the fact that you consider it problematic that LoS has outdoor areas, and feel that that is a betrayal to the saga, while you're perfectly fine about the 2035 games simply tell us that you have different priorities in what makes a Castlevania game. But once again, if 3 hours of woods and ruins disconnect you more from the lore of the saga than an episode set 30 years in the future where Dracula reincarnates in a college student who fights enemies that would be at home in something like One Piece, then you need to accept that I can't credit your judgement of objectiveness. You have your preferences, and I massively disagree with them, and neither of us can claim to be closer to the true essence of the saga.
But until our mentality is to dismiss anything that isn't a reskin of the same game we've been playing for 20 years, we're always gonna get that, and eventually the fanbase will be so small that we will be knowing each other by name. Personally I'm done with being conservative. If tomorrow we get a phenomenal game set in 500 A.D. where a Belmont ancestor travels to the Middle East to investigate the origins of a plague that is decimating Europe and eventually finding out the undead are behind it, I'll be fine with it being Castlevania. I'll be fine if it deals with fighting mummies in a pyramid instead of vampires in a castle, as long as the horror elements are conserved, as long as it ties to the overarching story - maybe by telling us how vampires came to be, or foreshadowing Dracula, or setting up the Belmont legacy, or whatever as long as it does bring something new to the saga - and as long as it plays like a Castlevania game, I'll be fine.
Hey Valtiel,
I don't know you, but you've definitely got a friend here.
I was quite desperate to read such honest things on this US forum.
Thank you for making me trust again in Castlevania fanbase,
I was thinking there were not Castlevania but just IGA fans here.
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Hey Valtiel,
I don't know you, but you've definitely got a friend here.
I was quite desperate to read such honest things on this US forum.
Thank you for making me trust again in Castlevania fanbase,
I was thinking there were not Castlevania but just IGA fans here.
I found out about this community fairly late, and I find it quite fantastic to be honest. Nothing bad in loving IGA games (I do too), but it seems to me it's for the most part a bunch of people loving the franchise without too much obsession for any sacred cow.
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Thanks guys, we try to create an environment where all types of Castlevania fans can coexist.
We've got the big IGAvania fans, we've got the Classicvania fans, we've got the N64vania fans, the PS2vania fans, the Metroidvania fans, and now the LoSvania fans.
It's a big melting pot, which means lots of discussions going on. We at the CVForum try to maintain this type of forum fanbase, because we believe that there's something positive about every type of CV game, no matter what 'type' of game it is.
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we believe that there's something positive about every type of CV game, no matter what 'type' of game it is.
*gasp* Even Portrait of Ruin?
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Yes, even that game (its music is awesome... love that "Gears Go Awry" Tower of Death music). :D
And although the dualpartner mechanic was in its infancy and needed some fleshing out, I think it paved the way to the Harmony of Despair online game.
See? That was easy. :P
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*gasp* Even Order of Shadows?
What you should of said.
While Portrait was pretty damn bad, they got quite a few things I liked. Their upgrading sub weapons were good except that they require you to grind the hell out of it.
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Castlevania II should be told in two parts:
- The 1st part of the game being the Prologue covers Gabriels rise to power as The Prince of Darkness.
- The 2nd part set 4 centuries later is centered around the Belmonts and their 1st
encounter with Dracula.
- No Fixed Camera
- Improvements upon the platforming used in LOS.
- have creatures you subdue try and throw you off of them.
- Longer Story.
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Portrait gets way too much hate. I admit I found it rather boring compared to the previous Metroidvanias, but that's mainly because I was tired of the formula. The actual game, objectively speaking, is a solid DS platformer with great gameplay, fantastic soundtrack and lots of exploration and things to do. The level design was lacking and repetitive in places, but that's only because the game was a little too big for its own good. The final portraits had me yawning like crazy... ´
Still, it's somewhat unfairly bashed cause it's not really THAT different from DoS or OoE. Or any of the other Metroidvanias for that matter. The level design in OoE was at times even worse than in PoR, just compare the PoR clocktower with OoE's... I think people like OoE better because it had better artwork, better characters and was a little bit more challenging. I mean, I do to.
But whenever I've shown the DS games to anyone outside of the Castlevania fanbase they all cry: "These games look and play exactly the same, I can hardly tell which one is which". It is us, the hardcore fans, that are super picky. I am too, but I try to take a step back sometimes and look at the games objectively. And damn, the Metroidvanias are quite spectacular compared what else there is in the 2D action genre of today, even PoR.
What topic am I in again? Oh... the LoS sequel topic... lol. I'll try and stay on topic from now on.
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^ This, the music, and that piece of shit (sorry, i just beated the game) that goes after the credits, are the only things keeping me from 100% loving this game.
I can't say I like the idea of "heavenly counterparts" at all. I get real Kingdom Heart vibes from that kind of thing, and that's not a good thing.
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I am too, but I try to take a step back sometimes and look at the games objectively. And damn, the Metroidvanias are quite spectacular compared what else there is in the 2D action genre of today, even PoR.
And the problem for me is that... I can't really endorse that statement.
If we look at things objectively, by now - as impossible as it may sound - Castlevania is more ahead of the curve as a 3D game. Lords of Shadow, at least tecnically and in terms of content and system quality, is a top tier game. It's one of the best looking 3D games ever.
Now, how have 2D games evolved?
Take a look at Odin's Sphere (PS2):
Odin Sphere - LL's Max 999 Combo Chain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN89Qm_bk-g#)
Odin Sphere - End Book Boss Ch01 ( Frog vs Dog ) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFKbDMS3SFg#)
Odin Sphere: Armageddon [Bad End/Unique Scene] Fire's Shadow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uanQ4ytZLFE#)
Or Muramasa on the Wii:
Oboro Muramasa - Kisuke gameplay (Musou mode) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yoP1YXiKRY#)
Or Shank - Gameplay Trailer PAX 2009 [HQ] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uQv6blO350#ws)
Or even:
Legend Of Mana: Irwin Battle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vvnlMyJ8eo#)
Geez, Legend of Mana is PS1 game.
2D tecnology really made huge improvements, as big as 3D graphics one could argue. I find it honestly unforgivable that IGA didn't manage to keep Castlevania ahead of the curve. It's possibly the most important 2D saga still going, aside from Mario. Imagine what 2D Castlevania games would look like today if he didn't stick to recycling the same old stuff and artists all over again.
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I would say that the Metroidvanias are on the same technical level of Legend of Mana. It's kinda hard for me to imagine how Castlevana would look without sprite reuse, because I was never really fond of the paper cut out rotation techniques used in Oboro or Odin Sphere or Shank. I mean, in the first two, they fit the style, but I can't see them working in Castlevania with its emphasis on realism, well, stylistically. Also, for some reason, I honestly prefer SoTN. It might just be all the intriacries and composition. It just strikes me as bolder and richer, despite technological inferiority. Well, when it comes to 2D, it's always better to have something hand-pixeled than use a technological gimmick like rotating, shifting, or morphing. It's much more natural.
i-im not arguing against new graphics. im just saying if they finally do get into gear, i hope they dont rely on what the newer 2D games do, but does its own thing with hand crafted precision.
With PoR, I just found it to be an exercise in grinding and excess. The gameplay with its hp tank bosses, leveling up subweapons, fetch quests, and etc. It's pretty much the game that sums up what drags down the Metroidvanias for me. That's why I don't like DoS or PoR. I mean, OoE shares those problems too with the bosses and quests, but then it strips down the inventory and revamps the combat to make it the fastest it's ever been and I am swooned. Probably one of the few Metroidvanias that actually invested in the potential of its gimmick. Too bad its level design was pretty horrid at times and despite all the new assets, it still manages to have the worst cohesiveness in graphics use. shanoa-baby ; - ;
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I dont know where they should take it next.... but no modern day/future scenery or levels. Even if its set in that time period like some CV games, it needs to be gothic and fantasy styled. Whatever people might argue is "real Castlevania" a game set in an industrial steel and glass sci-fi type world has no place.
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I hope the sequel doesn't have any modern era things in it, I hope it takes place in another medieval gothic like time period.
If they do several games, it would be cool to have them slowly build up to that era because I think it could work.
Close to where I live is an old steel plant (Bethlehem Steel, for anyone from the east PA area). Its a massive area and I think if done right a castle could look really cool in an industrial gothic style.
But I'm all for a current era game, just not for the first sequel
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I hope the sequel doesn't have any modern era things in it, I hope it takes place in another medieval gothic like time period.
you didn't like the Positron Rifle??!
I'm all for a CV game set in your hometown :D
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Well goofy lasers are fine as a secret weapon, but level design has to be to a certain standard.
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For the LoS sequel, there are quite a few things I'd like to see, but here are just a few:
1. Please do NOT take place in modern times. Yeah, yeah, I know there's the ending cinematic in LoS that shows that the story continues in present-day, but hopefully that's just part of it. Maybe the sequel will take place via flashbacks and will start and end in modern times, or there will be time-travel involved or something, but the game itself better not be set in present-day.
2. Have THE castle in it. Carmilla's castle in LoS was MASSIVE and very neat to see, but having it's 4 huge buildings all connected with huge chains was straight out of the Van Helsing movie. It just didn't seem right. I'd love to see a huge recreation of THE classic castle we all know and love.
3. Bring back the elemental whips. This was one of my favorite parts of LoI. It's cool to see them in 3D and I bet Mercury Steam could really do some cool stuff with the Flame/Ice/Lightning effects.
4. Redo some of the classic songs on the score. LoS had some hints of remixed old CV tunes, but I'd love to hear some fully orchestrated arrangements of "Bloody Tears", "Vampire Killer", "Dance of Pales", "Within these Castle Walls", etc.
5. Bring back Medusa as a boss. This was another part of LoI that I loved. I thought they really did a good job with her design in that game and I'm sure MS could do even better!
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1. Please do NOT take place in modern times.
Why not? I think a modern Castlevania set in Pennsylvania would be splendid XDDD
3. Bring back the elemental whips. This was one of my favorite parts of LoI. It's cool to see them in 3D and I bet Mercury Steam could really do some cool stuff with the Flame/Ice/Lightning effects.
Yes, that would've been very cool had they did this for LoS.
5. Bring back Medusa as a boss. This was another part of LoI that I loved. I thought they really did a good job with her design in that game and I'm sure MS could do even better!
Word up. People complain about robots in other games yet we fight a MECHANICAL MONSTROSITY in 1047. So why couldn't Medusa be there also? Or Frankenstein's Monster?
I still think they should've added LEGION as a hidden boss. T'would be awesome DLC that I wouldn't mind paying for (complete with exclusive lvl)
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For the next game, I think they should cut down a bit on the climbing/wall scaling. Nothing wrong with it, but if you have to do it on almost every stage it gets tedious.
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You know that HD 2D game is not coming, EVER, even IGA dismissed that possibility in his last interview (Destructoid, E3 2010: "Don't hold your breath for it"). YOu know he's lazy, a lot, that AND (not OR) Konami won't let him having a big budget, not after Judgment and Despair.
If that game comes someday, I'm pretty sure it will be yet another external-developed Castlevania.
It would be awesome.
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Could, not would.
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You know that HD 2D game is not coming, EVER, even IGA dismissed that possibility in his last interview (Destructoid, E3 2010: "Don't hold your breath for it"). YOu know he's lazy, a lot, that AND (not OR) Konami won't let him having a big budget, not after Judgment and Despair.
If that game comes someday, I'm pretty sure it will be yet another external-developed Castlevania.
It would be awesome.
Or they could use good 'ol KCET
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Why not? I think a modern Castlevania set in Pennsylvania would be splendid XDDD
Have the castle bust up out of the ground in an Amish community. Pitchfork is your weapon. ;)
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Or they could use good 'ol KCET
Um... they ARE KCET. I think you are confused.
KCEK did Circle of the Moon, Castlevania64 and Legacy of Darkness.
KCET did Symphony of the Night, Castlevania Chronicles port.
KCEN did the Saturn port of SotN and Castlevania Legends.
But all of this is just a history lesson, as none of those branches exist anymore. Everything's been blended to the Tokyo branch (formerly KCET) and now it's just "Konami Digital Enternainment", I believe.
There are no more teams from different cities (Kobe, Tokyo, Nagoya, and... uuurgh... I forgot the last one) anymore, just one merge in the Tokyo branch.
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yea i meant KCEK, thanks for the clarification ;D
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iirc since PoR, CoTM members have been apart of IGA's team anyway.
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Yeah, that's what I recall hearing as well.
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Now we know that the DLC Title will return to "The Demon Castle" in addition to that we are shown Gabriel's transformation into "The Dragon" as he called himself in 1999 to Death. So we can assume that Gabriel's son is Dracula; as we can also assume and hope that the 2 DLC will cover his transformation into a Vampire Lord.
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Gabriel is Dracula.
Unless he had a son named Gabriel. Which was played by the same voice actor. With nothing at all suggesting as such.
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Yeah, the concept artwork for him even confirms this.
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You know that HD 2D game is not coming, EVER, even IGA dismissed that possibility in his last interview (Destructoid, E3 2010: "Don't hold your breath for it"). YOu know he's lazy, a lot, that AND (not OR) Konami won't let him having a big budget, not after Judgment and Despair.
If that game comes someday, I'm pretty sure it will be yet another external-developed Castlevania.
It would be awesome.
OK, OK, OK! We ALL get it, you hate IGA.
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It's not hate. It just facts. Sorry but it's true.
Iga says:
"I create a new gameplay idea (read: Gimmick) and then I slap the story I seem appropiate for it"
Iga says:
"I actually don't like story"
If that's your idea of a super producer, good for you, for me, it's a shame.
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because story makes a game instead of elements that the player can actually interact with.
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It's not hate. It just facts. Sorry but it's true.If that's your idea of a super producer, good for you, for me, it's a shame.
You have done nothing but gripe about IGA in every topic. I understand that you LOVE LoS, and are not fond of IGA's efforts. So, please, by all means, buy up all future MercurySteam titles in the franchise and quit playing the others that you so clearly hate.
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You have done nothing but gripe about IGA in every topic. I understand that you LOVE LoS, and are not fond of IGA's efforts. So, please, by all means, buy up all future MercurySteam titles in the franchise and quit playing the others that you so clearly hate.
For the 4589174598476th time, it's not that I hate them, it's just that they could be soooo much better, in few words, they LACK AMBITION. That's it.
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For the 4589174598476th time, it's not that I hate them, it's just that they could be soooo much better, in few words, they LACK AMBITION. That's it.
Ok, I shouldn't put words in your mouth like "hate". It just appears to me that you are so enveloped in your own idea of what these games SHOULD be instead of enjoying them for what they are, as the developers intended. Anyone can point out a flaw in a game, and we should from time to time, otherwise there would really be nothing to talk about.
It is unfair to compare IGA's Castelvanias to MercurySteam's because they are completely different not just in (the often touted) budget difference but the cultural atmosphere they are developed in as well.
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I found this cool image of Olrox and Brauner together. I liked the concept of those 2 being brothers and all. Makes me think, it would be cool to hav a boss battle in the next game where you fight/juggle two strong bosses at once. Kind of like the one in Devil May Cry 3 with the 2 headless swordsman.
Maybe we will fight Slogra and Gaibon together, or Death and Drac/Gabriel. Aargh, now the long wait for the sequel!
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100822054304/castlevania/images/3/35/Olrox_and_Brauner_sm.jpg)
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*bump*
Now that the game has been out for a while, any new ideas on what the sequel should be like??
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My only hope is that we're still playing as a Belmont/someone similar to Gabriel since hopefully, he will become the tragic hero/antagonist of the series.
We need new sub weapons too, I was greatly disappointed we didn't see the axe, cross, or stopwatch make appearances. Also pot roast/food hidden in the walls/scenery for health. The health fonts were copy pasted from God of War, I hope I don't see them again.
Last thing I can think of right now is a proper score/soundtrack that fits Castlevania.
I'm just hoping for a lot more fan service than what we got in Lords of Shadow.
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We need new sub weapons too, I was greatly disappointed we didn't see the axe, cross, or stopwatch make appearances.
Maybe the stopwatch wasn't used due to the fact that the mechanical clock had yet to be invented. but they couldv'e used a sun dial instead. It's essentially the same as a watch. it would use magic to freeze enemies or slow them down a notch. But there was absolutely no excuse not to have the boomerang or axe in the game.
-X
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I too would love to see more sub weapons especially the axe. But if they were to do the something like the stop watch that isn't the stop watch itself, I would suggests an hour glass instead of a sundial
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*bump*
Now that the game has been out for a while, any new ideas on what the sequel should be like??
I will deserve my judgment until resurrection :(
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I will deserve my judgment until resurrection :(
Me too. I won't really have any ideas until I've seen the entire first game (DLC included). I'm still wondering about that Slogra corpse in the ending cut scene (or at least it seems to be a corpse, could be a statue though).
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My only hope is that we're still playing as a Belmont/someone similar to Gabriel since hopefully, he will become the tragic hero/antagonist of the series.
I think it was really cool that LOS ended up being a Dracula origin story, but I agree that they should find a way to keep it as Belmont vs. Dracula. The thing that frightens me about the epilogue is that it makes it feel like the next games will be you playing as Dracula against Satan and his minions. I'm all for change, as I loved Lords of Shadow, but not that. Not that at all. Would it be cool as a spinoff? Maybe, but it would feel closer to the Legacy of Kain titles, and having you as Dracula fighting Satan (again) wouldn't feel like CV at all.
For me, while LOS was a departure from the series, it still gave me a Belmont character in a fantastically realized gothic land fighting creatures of the night and that's about all I really ask from the series. LOS has the general foundation of Castlevania, just presented differently. However if this new reboot series becomes Dracula vs. Satan, well I can't imagine that it would be a good thing.
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Im sure there will be a third party between the Dracula vs Satan dual. I mean in the epilouge it looked like Dracula has been quite active during his time as Dracula and he looks like he's been in quite alot of battles. So maybe a new family of hunters have taken up arms to defeat him.
Besides, you can't live for a thousand years without gaining a few new enemies.
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Besides, you can't live for a thousand years without gaining a few new enemies.
Great truth, this is.
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Maybe Dracula's new enemies will be the Cronquist family. It would be kind of funny. With LoI, we have someone from the Cronquist family becoming Dracula and the Belmont family eventually hunting him. Now with LoS, we have a "Belmont" becoming Dracula. It might be entertaining if it turns out that the hunters end up being from the Cronquist family. That my just be me though.
I do agree that we probably won't be playing as Dracula. It's probably going to be a three sided battle (Hunters vs. Dracula and Zobek vs. Satan).
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Wall shimmying sucks, and so do QTEs. I'm almost 100 percent certain that since these are, for whatever reason, essentials in any new action game, I'm not counting on them being cut out, much as I hate their guts. At the very least, I'd like the sequel to have more gothic horror settings (the castle, scarecrow village part) and less high fantasy settings (Agharta, and I mean come on, much of the necromancer's realm was just flipping Mordor). It'd be cool if it went more (way waaaaay more) towards the horror spectrum than the fantasy spectrum (which is already way too plentiful in games already).
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Maybe Dracula's new enemies will be the Cronquist family. It would be kind of funny. With LoI, we have someone from the Cronquist family becoming Dracula and the Belmont family eventually hunting him. Now with LoS, we have a "Belmont" becoming Dracula. It might be entertaining if it turns out that the hunters end up being from the Cronquist family. That my just be me though.
I do agree that we probably won't be playing as Dracula. It's probably going to be a three sided battle (Hunters vs. Dracula and Zobek vs. Satan).
Maybe it will be kinda like Russia missions from Resident Evil Umbrella Chronicles, Jill and Chris (ie: the good guys) fighting aganist the obvious but not the worst threat , and Wesker (ie: the bad guy) fighting the real threat
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Maybe Dracula's new enemies will be the Cronquist family. It would be kind of funny. With LoI, we have someone from the Cronquist family becoming Dracula and the Belmont family eventually hunting him. Now with LoS, we have a "Belmont" becoming Dracula. It might be entertaining if it turns out that the hunters end up being from the Cronquist family. That my just be me though.
I do agree that we probably won't be playing as Dracula. It's probably going to be a three sided battle (Hunters vs. Dracula and Zobek vs. Satan).
You mean, in 1999, Julius Cronqvist? :)
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You mean, in 1999, Julius Cronqvist? :)
Something like that.