Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Grim Fandango on October 10, 2010, 06:29:53 PM
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In the wake of the recent release of Castlevania: Lords of Shadow, a number of questions have arisen regarding it's validity as the inheritor of the Castlevania name. The gist of the issue is this: What IS a Castlevania game? What elements do you think constitute a Castlevania game? Is there a specific gameplay mechanic necessary? Is it the monsters? The castle? Dracula? Hopefully, this thread can serve as a place to debate, or argue, about this question, rather than shitting up other threads with inane prattle.
As for my own view...
I think only few things are required to make a Castlevania game. Monsters drawn from folklore, mainly of European origin, being hunted by a hero through a setting ripped out of a Hammer Horror film. Whips, Belmonts, and Dracula are a bonus.
Seriously though, all this bitching and moaning over whether or not LoS is a Castlevania game needs to stop. If you feel it is, then why? If you don't, then why not? Real answers people, not feelings.
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Goddamn threads like these have been done to death.
To answer the question:
man with whip/sword fighting monsters in pursuit of vampire
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man with whip fighting monsters in pursuit of vampire
and the vampire is in a castle.
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The vampire was in a castle in this game. It just wasn't the vampire most expected.
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Atmosphere man.....
Dark, gloomy, somber, twisted
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I think whats he's asking is about LOS.
Now that castlevania is rebooted in new timeline, he wants to know what is castlevania now.
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I think whats he's asking is about LOS.
Now that castlevania is rebooted in new timeline, he wants to know what is castlevania now.
man with whip/sword fighting monsters in pursuit of Satan, and then the man turns in dracula
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Christian Imagery, mythology, slayering monsters, troubled protagonist.
man with whip/sword fighting monsters in pursuit of Satan, and then the man turns in dracula
I see what you did there -_-
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castlevania is about
poorly implemented bone towers
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Many people seem to mistake the association that Castlevania games must always take place inside a Castle which many of the earliest games, notably Castlevania II, III, IV, Bloodlines, Rondo of Blood, and a few of the Gameboy titles, which had many outdoor areas such as caves, swamps, rivers and waterfalls, and even forests while traversing through the countryside on you your way TO the Castle, rather then simply being inside the Castle from the very beginning.
However the other thing to point out as just identifying with the series artwork style is also it's atmosphere and tone of the series. Which is usually has strong Gothic and some religious overtones. Something that is very hard to convey it in just words because I feel that is something that needs to be experienced to grasp it.
Such as when you descend into catacombs and caves, passing through dark forests and murky swamps surrounded by dark creatures such as skeletons, spectres, and demons fighting your way to through the evil as you as you approach that ever foreboding Castle passing through it's halls and that area akin to a cathedral with the windows full of paned glass, then ascending towards the upper section through the clock tower and balcony and then that final staircase to reach the tower spire to throne room with the inevitable battle against the Lord of Darkness.
That is what I feel what the essence of the Castlevania series is as was present since the very earliest games in the series, that slow build up and progression. Lords of Shadow has some of the above fairly represented giving it a place in the Castlevania series.
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Honestly, see "Lords of Shadow" for the answer. The game has included everything that makes up what a *Great* CV game is. Atmosphere, music, combat, platforming, love, loss, heroes (tragic), villains...It's all there. If some of you can't see that, you need to open your eyes and play it again. Seriously.
Want to know what is *NOT* a CV game? Go play crap like Portrait of Ruin or whatever that latest nonsense IGA just put out on Live is supposed to be.
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Castlevania = Candles. If it has no candles, its not castlevania. To be honest, any game featuring candles, i consider a castlevania now a days.
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Honestly, see "Lords of Shadow" for the answer. The game has included everything that makes up what a *Great* CV game is. Atmosphere, music, combat, platforming, love, loss, heroes (tragic), villains...It's all there. If some of you can't see that, you need to open your eyes and play it again. Seriously.
Want to know what is *NOT* a CV game? Go play crap like Portrait of Ruin or whatever that latest nonsense IGA just put out on Live is supposed to be.
I certainly won't say Lords of Shadow has "everything" that makes up a great Castlevania game. For one thing it's particularly lacking in the music department and platforming was mostly forced. Having been played the series since it's very origins and initial release in 1986 on the NES. The music in Lords of Shadow was quite a departure from the series more Gothic or Stravinsky inspired classical themes.
As for the comment in telling others that they "can't see" Lords of Shadow as a *Great* Castlevania game, It's alright to dislike games, but comments such as this only spur pointless arguments. It's one thing having an opinion on something, it's something entirely else to try to force it upon others. No one needs to "open their eyes" just so their view conforms with yours.
If they dislike the game they have the right to dislike. No point making a fuss about it, simply accept it and move on.
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As for the comment in telling others that they "can't see" Lords of Shadow as a *Great* Castlevania game, It's alright to dislike games, but comments such as this only spur pointless arguments. It's one thing having an opinion on something, it's something entirely else to try to force it upon others. No one needs to "open their eyes" just so their view conforms with yours.
If they dislike the game they have the right to dislike. No point making a fuss about it, simply accept it and move on.
Exactly. Each to his/her own. For me, Castlevania brings up images of Stage by stage classic plateforming, whipable candles containing items, breakable blocks that hold food, Belmonts (Male or female) wielding whips to smite thy foes, haunted castles and countrysides, mythicle monsters (Medusa), vampire lords (Dracula), the Grim Reaper, the Monster (Frankenstien), etc. I could go on and on and on. but you get the idea.
-X
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Exactly. Each to his/her own. For me, Castlevania brings up images of Stage by stage classic plateforming, whipable candles containing items, breakable blocks that hold food, Belmonts (Male or female) wielding whips to smite thy foes, haunted castles and countrysides, mythicle monsters (Medusa), vampire lords (Dracula), the Grim Reaper, the Monster (Frankenstien), etc. I could go on and on and on. but you get the idea.
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This. And the awesome music.
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Please. People can bitch about other's opinions as much as they can if they feel like it.
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Please. People can bitch about other's opinions as much as they can if they feel like it.
Oh people can do so if they want but it's inevitably pointless. It's not like complaining about it is going to change their opinion anyways. It's waste of time that has no constructive merit to it. We don't live in a world with a hive mind mentality.
I'm not going to change my own opinions simply because someone doesn't like it. Bitch all they want about, it's pretty much futile and won't change a damn thing in the end.
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I apologize for any remarks that may have been taken wrong, as it was not my intention to tell anyone to "like the game", or to force my opinion on anyone, I'm merely pointing out several things that have been prominent in the CV franchise for decades, and that they are all here in this game. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the platforming aspect, it's there. IGA's games had little-to-none and any platforming, forced or not, is a welcome addition back to the series, IMO.
With that said, I have given some thought as to why people may not "feel" the CV in this game and are having troubles pin-pointing what that "something" may be. Here's my theory.
In LOS, the castle is not the focus point of the game/story and we are very accustomed to having it be the focal point, especially for the final stage duel, usually against a vampire. In this game, the castle is merely another "stepping stone", an obstacle to get by so that we can progress beyond that and into a new domain. I won't fault the developers or writers for this, as it was probably necessary to set up the bigger picture with Satan at the end. However, I do hope that in future games we see *much much* more of the castle itself and get to learn about it's rich and mysterious history and origins. I love out-side castle exploration just as much as the next guy, but there is nothing wrong at all with having a game soley take place inside the creature of chaos, exploring it's depths and multiple environments.
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Well I agree with your points that the Castle not being the focal point.
Because if you look back at older games in the series notably Castlevania II, III, IV, Rondo, and Bloodlines. There was a series of progression that took place. All of those games had varying locales that you needed to traverse through in order to eventually get to the Castle rather then the Metroid-inspired titles which was basically one huge sprawling Castle that needed to be explored.
Perhaps in the future they can make a Castlevania title that combines the best of both worlds to please the linear stage based progression fans as well as the Metroidvania fans.
I mean as in make the beginning of the game be like the old stage-based classic platformers, needing traverse through forests and swamps, caverns which consist of many platforming segments filled with enemies and a boss battle at the end, and then when you GET to the Castle the gameplay direction shifts to that of a Metroid style exploration game having to navigate this massive labyrinth of corridors, dungeons, and catacombs, and make your way to the throne room to fight and defeat the enemy.
Actually the idea itself sounds rather interesting on paper I'm almost tempted to use Gamemaker with a hodge podge of ripped Castlevania sprites and tilesets / backgrounds and simply create something like that myself.
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I think the core issue here is marking the distinction between what IS Castlevania and what is ESSENTIAL for a game to be Castlevania.
For example, werewolves definitely ARE Castlevania, but are they ESSENTIAL? Would a Castlevania game without lycantropes be still Castlevania?
When working around a list of essential elements, one needs to be careful of not being too strict. If every Castlevania game should feature Frankenstein's monster because one Castlevania game at some point featured it, the risk you run is ending up playing the same game over and over and over. Didn't we go through that already?
The nitpicking at LoS is often shallow.
There was a lot of arguing about the Combat Cross, or about the need of having the game feature a Belmont, yet people call SotN or OoE or AoS full fledged Castlevania games.
People complained about not having Dracula as a boss. In that case, I guess LoI isn't Castlevania either?
There is a set of things that mark a game as a Castlevania game; it's like a baggage of elements games in the saga can pick from and implement. The whip? It may or may not be there. Belmonts? It worked with and without. This should never become luggage; it shouldn't be something that suffocates new games under the expectation of them being the same old thing.
That said, to me the fundamentals are:
- a combat-based game with solid platforming
- a gothic setting revolving around fighting monsters in Europe
- involving Dracula in some form
- subweapons
I think this is the bare minimum for me. LoS is a perfectly fine CV game in my book; most game in the saga have been perfectly fine CV games for me in this regard - the only ones I have issues with are the Soma Cruz games. Those are the games that in my eyes actually betrayed the CV legacy.
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Nothing wrong with feeling the wrong, baby.
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Perfect word to use when explaining how a thing should look to achieve a "Castlevania feel": Spooky. A spooky countryside, spooky forest, spooky swamp, spooky graveyard, spooky village, spooky mountains, spooky church, spooky caves, spooky ruins, the majority of CV locales have always been spooky.
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Definitely! Spooky is the right word for all that was castlevania in the past. Whenever I play the old-school NES titles or even SCV4, I always get the nostalgic "spooky" vib that makes these games an enjoyable experience. It's the same feeling I used to get when I was a kid knowing Halloween was right around the corner.
-X
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Maybe I just don't get it, but this:
Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow #4 - Wizardry Lab (1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOJwXPJ8II8#)
This is not spooky.
Castlevania: Rondo of Blood Walkthrough (Stage 4': Fortress Of The Water Demon) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dskF2VOs8rs#ws)
Neither is this.
I mean, the background is kind of eerie, but the music and the frogs kill it for me.
As well as the river rafting ride.
Case in point: it's not bad, but spooky does not a Castlevania make.
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Castlevania = Mythological creatures (With emphasis on horror creatures) + Christian imagery + Classical music (even disguised as japo-metal, it has classical chords progression) + A central "evil core" character with bonds ti the protagonist.
If you think about it, Satan is a mythological creature too, it's not too far away from the core ;)
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Press Start: Bonus Levels - 06 - Symphony of the Trite (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCzcds-eczU#)
This is Castlevania.
Vlad the Vampire, the Belfasts, a castle, bats, an epic battle with Death, amazing dialogue. HAVE AT YOU!
Seriously, Castlevania is music, art, Belmonts (ie Trevor, Leon, Simon and Richter, ect), magic, Alucard, whips, bats, sub weapons, fog, rain, Orlox, moody and creepy atmosphere, deranged maids, Medusa heads (arg), a Castle, candles, hearts, Dracula, over the top dialogue and great comebacks.
I'll kill you and the night!
Mankind ill needs a saviour such as you!
What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!
But enough talk, have at you!
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Super Castlevania IV is probably my favorite established vision for the series. Somber, gloomy, atmospheric, and very much Transylvania in nature. I love it when Konami adds their own flair to it. The colorful environments, designs, music, it's all very wonderful. ReBirth being another example, is still one of the best games I've played in a long time despite it's niche platforming, I would very much like to see more games like it in the series.
LoS is one giant reboot of the series, using familiarity from all sorts of fictional horror things, not just Castlevania, and giving it it's own spin. In my opinion, it's Lord of the Rings/Tolkien/Dark Fairy tale lore with familiar elements that Castlevania is known for. Not EVERYTHING, of course, but I strongly believe that they purposely made it that way because of it serving out more as an The sequel will probably feel more like Castlevania.
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Maybe I just don't get it, but this:
Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow #4 - Wizardry Lab (1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOJwXPJ8II8#)
This is not spooky.
Castlevania: Rondo of Blood Walkthrough (Stage 4': Fortress Of The Water Demon) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dskF2VOs8rs#ws)
Neither is this.
I mean, the background is kind of eerie, but the music and the frogs kill it for me.
As well as the river rafting ride.
Case in point: it's not bad, but spooky does not a Castlevania make.
I think both of those have nice spooky factors. Wizardry Lab has the spookiness of an abandoned building, barren shelves, rusted machinery and cracked walls. The Rondo stage with the bended weeping willows(probably one of the more spookiest trees ever). Hell, even the river rafting ride down the mountainside, passing drying and dead foliage(yellowish green bushes, yellow grass). Sure, the changed that look to a more lush green mountainside in Dracula X Chronicles, but it was pretty dead looking in the original.
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I think Dawn of Sorrow's grim tinge suffered from the anime. Wizardy Lab itself had a really poppy song and paced action that contrasted enough with the brown barrenness to liven it up again. I personally find Castlevania's atmosphere to be a quirky blend of things with the gothic and dark than strictly grimdark and frostbitten anyway, mostly in popping grooves working against yet also working with the spookiness.
popping grooves
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I've always said. DOS had one of the most shocking final esenes ever (Celia getting cruxifixiated? OMG) but it's overall childish theme hold it back.
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Well, when I talked about spookiness, I meant the look of the areas. I never said anything about the music, which has been pretty up tempo since the begining.
I've always said. DOS had one of the most shocking final esenes ever (Celia getting cruxifixiated? OMG) but it's overall childish theme hold it back.
Interestingly enough, that's one of the big things many of us complained about. Didn't help that they jumped ship and decided to go with a very basic anime-style of character designs than Ayami Kojima's art. It's harder to take Shonen-styled anime seriously.
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Castlevania is: Konami videogame, warrior, whip-chain, vampires, werewolves, castle, Transylvania = Lords of Shadow