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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Grethor on October 31, 2010, 04:28:12 AM

Title: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Grethor on October 31, 2010, 04:28:12 AM

Hi guys! I've just finished Lords of Shadow and enjoyed every minute. I understand that it is meant to be seperate from the established timeline, but throughout the whole game I couldn't help thinking - is there a way to shoehorn it in somehow? I think it can be accomplished. Maybe if we put our heads together we can work it out for fun?

Before I start i'd better mention that I did a pretty bare-bones playthrough of the game (on Knight difficulty) so there might be things i've missed. Although I did read all the tome entries. I've played all the previous games in the series in one form or another. Although, I didn't fully complete LOI (got stuck on Walter Bernhardt!  :-X

Spoilers begin here...

(click to show/hide)

-At certain points in the game, Rinaldo Gandolfi is mentioned as being alive long ago - implies it is set AFTER Lament of Innocence?
           -Also, a fallen brotherhood member mentions seeing Rinaldo alive? My theory is that Rinaldo is trapped in some kind of purgatory as a spectral being (which explains how he is in both LOI and  LOS) perhaps linked to the Castle.
-In Gabriel's tome of knowledge entry, it implies he might be a member of the Cronqvist family, another reference to LOI (Mathias Cronqvist). My theory being that with Leon and Mathias being allies, the 2 bloodlines became 1 through marriage (not Leon + Mathias but their children!).
-Which brings us to the Belmont name itself (apparently chosen by Gabriel for his love of mountains? while it is Leon's name aswell ...coincidentally) this is something I couldn't work out, any ideas? Maybe when Gabriel was dumped on the brotherhood doorstep he had something that was a hint to his lineage on him, which caused him to discover his bloodline and take up the name later in life and use the mountain thing as a cover.
-A major reference to the other games of course is Olrox, Brauner and Carmilla. This is pretty easy to work out - they survived (not necessarily their physical beings, possibly in spirit) and were reborn, maybe part of the Castle's magic. Another tome entry that reinforces this is that the more feral vampires become more human looking the older they become- in Olrox and Brauner's case this explains why they look human in Symphony of the Night and Order of Ecclesia respectively.
-One of my favourite parts of the game is the final boss fight against....Satan, who in my opinion looks just like Alucard. I kept thinking to myself...why does Satan look like Alucard? Then it occured to me, he has black hair like he does in Castlevania 3! This could be in Alucard's formative years, and has yet to become a nice guy and is still a bad dude! So Alucard was posing as Satan to manipulate Zobec into gathering the pieces of the mask and giving him Ultimate Powaaah! (Power to fight his father- Mathias) One major reference to Alucard is when he says "do you hear me father?? now you'll take orders from me!". I thought he was referring to Drac at that point (although it was probably meant to be God).

How am I doing so far? I was pretty satisfied with myself for working this out! But then my face went from  ;D to  :'( when I watched the epilogue:-

So Gabriel is Dracula? WTF? But wait, let's think about this a second- the 3 lords of shadow were the brotherhood founders' evil side (a la Piccolo and Kami from Dragonball Z!  :-[) am I right? Maybe that vampire is Gabriel's evil side after he ascended to a higher plane of existence. You do fight the last battle as an Angel right? Also, in that Epilogue movie Vampire Gabriel seemed pretty happy to lurk in the shadows, if he WAS Dracula, he would have fought about 20 generations of his descendants in the years between LOS and that point and been a pretty evil dude. Maybe Dracula is Mathias after all and evil Gabriel was just wondering the earth (like Lestat near the end of Interview with a Vampire, where he had been lurking in a run down building in New Orleans for years - the epilogue really reminded me of that scene!)

Also my theories have depended on one fact- that at the time of LOS , Mathias is still out there somewhere (has fathered Alucard with a human), and is gathering his powers still (not yet taken up residence in the castle- hence his current squatter Carmilla) for his war on God.

Anyway, I thought i'd throw all this out there and welcome any criticisms / or theories that you can come up with. I've enjoyed writing it out anyway and anything to augment the greatest series of games ever is only a good thing.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Richter on October 31, 2010, 05:19:23 AM

LOS - 1047
LOI - 1094

So if you really want to shoehorn it in, there's a possibility. It still doesn't really work though, the names of the LOI characters being in there is more of an easter egg for series fans.

Gandolfi is mentioned several times, and a fallen brotherhood member mentions seeing Rinaldo alive - but wasn't that in the land of the dead?
Gabriel's is implied to be a member of the Cronqvist family... but Mathias being a relation doesnt make much sense at this point.
 
Where the Belmont name came from I guess is never explained, perhaps its origins here might fit... maybe. Did Gabriel go out and create the bloodline to ensure there would be those to battle evil? If only his dark self is left on earth why would he do that? Has he got any relations alive in LOS time period who would take the Belmont name and seek to destroy him? There are a lot of problems.

The main vampires of course could be ressurected, it's always happening in these games.

Satan looks nothing like Alucard. Why do you think that? Alucard is part human son of Dracula, and Dracula has yet to exist so he cannot have a son.... Alucard is not not a demonic power strong enough to manipulate events such as LOS depicts --- its THE Satan. The pissed off fallen angel who wants to rule heaven over the God. No dice.

Gabriel did ascend to heaven or whataver in the end leaving behind his evil half, yeah. Mathias wont become Dracula for another 4 decades if we suggest there is a continuity with canon. Leon Belmont has not been born yet. Demon Castle Dracula does not exist in the way we see it in later games. Who knows what could occur in this time?

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: corneliab on October 31, 2010, 07:16:05 AM

Gabriel didn't ascend, at least not during Lords of Shadow. Why do people keep thinking this- it's completely wrong.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Richter on October 31, 2010, 07:37:37 AM

So why is he "Dracul" at the end? Most people came to the conclusion that the final battle is so easy because Gabriel has become a power of light to battle Satan, and as with the rest of the Lords Of Shadow, with that power their being is split in two. The vampire in the final scene is that other half. Is there a better explaination?

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: corneliab on October 31, 2010, 07:49:54 AM

Quote from: Richter on October 31, 2010, 07:37:37 AM

So why is he "Dracul" at the end? Most people came to the conclusion that the final battle is so easy because Gabriel has become a power to battle Satan, and as the rest of the Lords Of Shadow, with that power splits them in two.

Is this even English? The fuck are you saying?

The better explanation is clearly the one THAT HASN'T BEEN EXPLAINED YET. Is this so hard to understand? There is no explanation yet. There is no evidence AT ALL that Gabriel ascended during the events of LoS, while there is evidence that CLEARLY CONTRADICTS this retarded theory.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Richter on October 31, 2010, 07:54:00 AM

Jesus calm down. This isn't me being crazy - I have no idea what is going on at the end of the game. This is just the theory that I've seen the most times being discussed. I hated the writing in LOS so any clear description of what actually happened is welcome to me.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: corneliab on October 31, 2010, 08:00:06 AM

Gabriel was given angelic powers for the fight against Satan (or was simply an angel himself- he was killed by Zobek) and then had them taken back when he was given a second chance at life. It's as simple as it looks.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Richter on October 31, 2010, 08:02:10 AM

Well that makes sense. Him being cursed and turned into an immortal does not... guess we'll have to wait and see. So with that detour wrapped up, do you have any ideas about fitting LOS in the canon?

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: corneliab on October 31, 2010, 08:11:33 AM

Quote from: Richter on October 31, 2010, 08:02:10 AM

do you have any ideas about fitting LOS in the canon?

well this conversation is clearly over

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Richter on October 31, 2010, 08:33:00 AM

My mistake, thought you might have something more constructive to add.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: corneliab on October 31, 2010, 08:36:30 AM

How the fuck is trying to shoehorn a game that's been explictly stated to have no affiliation with the established canon constructive?

It's fucking DESTRUCTIVE is what it is, so even try to pull that fanon bullshit.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Nagumo on October 31, 2010, 08:44:25 AM

Fitting in Lords can't be done unless you don't have a problem with stretching your suspension of disbelieve and assume they're are two guys who happen to be both called Dracula or something. Ironically, I'm pretty sure you could have put the game somewhere if they weren't any references to past Castlevania games.  :P

However, although you couldn't fit it with the actual timeline of the series, you could probably go with an idea Judgment slightly touched upon. Apperently time travelers can go back in time, change something, and mess everything up in order to create an alternate timeline. I guess you could assume that is a way to connect Lords to the other games. It would fit very well with the game "rebooting" the series.              
      

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Richter on October 31, 2010, 08:51:42 AM

Like I said:

Quote

It still doesn't really work

Quote

more of an easter egg for series fans

Of course I mean constructive in forum terms, i.e. less aggressive nonsense.

Quote

Fitting in Lords can't be done unless you don't have a problem with stretching your suspension of disbelieve and assume they're are two guys who happen to be both called Dracula or something. Ironically, I'm pretty sure you could have put the game somewhere if they weren't any references to past Castlevania games.

Yeah. It's kind of odd they purposely went out of their way to avoid directly saying it's a full reboot though in the game itself - he doesn't actually say "Dracula" and there's a lot of weird links to the canon that shouldn't be there. It would probably have been better to stick a "Gaiden" label on their like some releases of the 2nd N64 game got.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Nagumo on October 31, 2010, 09:04:28 AM

Although the Dracul theory is very cool, I've noticed that the artwork gallery of the game does refer to him as Dracula.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Richter on October 31, 2010, 09:14:54 AM

Oh yeah, I'd forgot about that  :P

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on October 31, 2010, 11:45:46 AM

Hmmm, fitting it all together? In a fanfic-type of way, you could do it like this(but remember, this is only with the info we have RIGHT NOW, because any DLC or additional stories could mix it up):

1. Gabriel is father of both Mathias and Leon, but with different women. Percautions were made with Leon to keep him from being born as a Dhampyr(if Gabriel had become a vampire by then). Both inherit half of their father's powers(Mathias inherits darkness, Leon inherits light). Leon's raised as a Belmont, his mother is a Baroness. Mathias raised as a Cronqvist, learning the dark arts of Alchemy, creating the Crimson Stone and becoming allies with Death.

2. Rinaldo Gandolfi in LoS is LoI's Rinaldo's father(LoI is Rinaldo Gandolfi Jr.). Rinaldo Sr. teaches his son the art of Alchemy.

3. Gabriel, himself, becomes Dracul, and disappears, while his older son, Mathias, befriends Leon, and the two are unaware that they are, in fact, half-brothers. The enter the military together and prove lead their men to victory. Prior to this, Mathias marries Elisabetha, and Leon courts Sara.

4. Elisabetha dies, Mathias goes crazy, and contructs a way to scorn God. Tricks Leon into killing Walter, then becomes a powerful vampire. Mathias leaves Leon to fight Death. Leon becomes the first "Belmont" of the "Vampire Hunting lineage". Mathias goes off into the world, building his nation, and eventually goes to seek out the father who abandoned him.

5. Mathias meets Gabriel, now under the name Dracul, and is turned away(Dracul wishes to be left alone). But realizing that he is his father's son nonetheless, he sheds his name as Mathias Cronqvist, and dons the name of Dracula(Son of Dracul, the Dragon).

6. Hundreds of years later, he rules his domain in Romania as Dracula Vlad Tepes, falls in love with another woman(Lisa), who bares him a child(Alucard, Adrien Tepes), but is burned to death years later from being a witch. Dracula turns on humanity, until Trevor kills him(with the help of Sypha, Grant and Alucard).

-Events of classic canon-

1999- Zobek seeks out Dracul, knowing that Satan's resurrection is at hand. The two decide to seek out Dracula(Dracul's son), who's become super powerful, to help them. Dracula's hunger for power pushes him into becoming the "Master" of Satan himself(because Dracula's the Dark Lord, and all monsters and demons will sooner or later fall under his command). Gaining powers over Satan himself, Dracula innitiates the Demon Castle War, attempting to raise Hell on Earth. Julius is sought out as the world's final hope.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Ahasverus on October 31, 2010, 11:47:11 AM

Gabriel did not ascend, what you saw there was all the light magic abandoning him, he used it to vanquish Satan. The bad part, of course, is that he was left only with dark magic and the scrolls were clear about it, dark magic corrupts people.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Munchy on October 31, 2010, 02:36:39 PM

Quote from: Ahasverus on October 31, 2010, 11:47:11 AM

Gabriel did not ascend, what you saw there was all the light magic abandoning him, he used it to vanquish Satan. The bad part, of course, is that he was left only with dark magic and the scrolls were clear about it, dark magic corrupts people.

Ohhh.... That makes a little more sense.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: ChibiMaddiChan on October 31, 2010, 07:26:48 PM

May be my mistake, but I could have sworn this game wasn't part of the current timeline at all: only the fans are trying to force it in. I thought this game was suppose to be a 'reboot' or a different version of events and timelines. I thought Cox had already said this.

Personally, I think it better that way: makes it far less convoluted and gives the team a chance to try fresh and interesting ideas instead of being tied down by the current timeline's lore thus far.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on October 31, 2010, 08:34:41 PM

It ISN'T tied to the classic continuity, but still, seemingly people WANT to tie them together nonetheless. It happens sometimes. I mean, I even saw people trying to tie the Platinum Dune Texas Chainsaw Massacre movies to the original Tobe Hooper continuity, despite both families being different(the Sawyers in the original, the Hewitts in the remake). They try to say that the Platinum Dunes ones were two "accounts" of the many that were listed in the original(the original lists that so-and-so many bodies were recovered, or such, not just the ones killed in the movie, hence there were other instances of poor people coming in contact with Leatherface and kin), and that change of characters(families are totally different) is because some left, while other cousins showed up, blah blah blah.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Maedhros on October 31, 2010, 09:35:05 PM

People can try to tie it anywhere, in the end, it'll not be on the original timeline.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: X on October 31, 2010, 10:54:21 PM

I think LoS should remain a stand-alone title from the rest of the series. Eventhough Cox is using some of IGA's characters, the game's story and direction lead it to be a reboot. Though personally I'd rather see an all original cast for this reboot and leave IGA's characters out of it.  :P

Satan looks nothing like Alucard. Why do you think that? Alucard is part human son of Dracula, and Dracula has yet to exist so he cannot have a son.... Alucard is not not a demonic power strong enough to manipulate events such as LOS depicts --- its THE Satan. The pissed off fallen angel who wants to rule heaven over the God. No dice.

Satan is no fallen angel. Satan is nothing more then a manipulative demon who resides in hell. As for Lucifer, he was the fallen angel in the story. But that's an impossibility since angels were crafted out of God's pure love and thus, cannot become corrupted by any primative, negative human emotions. -angel lore 101-

-X

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Grethor on November 01, 2010, 03:59:18 AM

Thanks for all your lengthy responses guys  :)

Richter- Cheers for that, I hadn't realised a year had been specified that LOS was set in before LOI, damn!
I like the idea that Gabriel ascended and what's left is his evil half. I guess I have trouble believing that the big softy we've been playing as turns into that.

DragonSlayr81 - those points sound awesome to me. Who knows, the next game could be Cox's imagining of the 1999 battle, even if it isn't part of the main canon.

Just out of interest, am I the only one who thought Satan looks like Alucard? I couldn't find a picture of Satan on Google images otherwise I would compare them. Maybe it was just me!

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Kale on November 01, 2010, 04:59:32 AM

Quote from: X on October 31, 2010, 10:54:21 PM

Satan is no fallen angel. Satan is nothing more then a manipulative demon who resides in hell. As for Lucifer, he was the fallen angel in the story. But that's an impossibility since angels were crafted out of God's pure love and thus, cannot become corrupted by any primative, negative human emotions. -angel lore 101-

-X

I'm not going to claim I know a great deal on the subject... but I'm moderately sure all demons are fallen angels. Satan was one as well.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Harrycombs on November 01, 2010, 08:57:54 AM

Quote from: X on October 31, 2010, 10:54:21 PM

Satan is no fallen angel. Satan is nothing more then a manipulative demon who resides in hell. As for Lucifer, he was the fallen angel in the story. But that's an impossibility since angels were crafted out of God's pure love and thus, cannot become corrupted by any primative, negative human emotions. -angel lore 101-

-X

what?

"is an embodiment of antagonism that originates from the Abrahamic religions, being traditionally considered a "fallen" angel in Judeo-Christian belief"

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan)

Also from wiki, "Lucifer is sometimes used in Christian theology to refer to Satan, as a result of identifying the fallen "son of the dawn" of Isaiah 14:12 with the "accuser" of other passages in the Old Testament."

So no, Satan is not a manipulative demon who resides in hell. He is a fallen angel, and God cast him into hell as punishment. And for fallen angels to exist, they must be corruptible.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Heuss on November 01, 2010, 10:53:39 AM

(http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/304/0/9/satan_by_geofffffff-d31wz4l.jpg)

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: Ahasverus on November 01, 2010, 12:40:16 PM

^ I liked it  :)

I think the in-game Satan was ugly, the artwork (see my sig) is awesome, the in game one has...strange teeth :P

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow - Where in the timeline (Spoilers)
Post by: X on November 01, 2010, 06:01:43 PM

And for fallen angels to exist, they must be corruptible.

They are. Through our own primative and negative thoughts and through our lack of (or repressed) knowledge on the subject. Fallen angels make for great story-telling, but pure, infinite love can never be tainted.  ;)

-X