Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: KnockedUP on November 06, 2010, 08:52:46 PM
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First of all: hello, fellow Castlevania fans.
Let me just say that this poll is more than just some random poll. It actually has quite a bit of backstory, spawned in the bowels of sega-16.com (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14411). It was (and to some extent, still is) a topic that sparked a lot of heated debate over which game is the better one.
As you might have noticed, the poll has been posted on a pro-Sega website, where Bloodlines seems to have taken in the majority of votes (56 to 31 at the point of writing this post).
Most users there however, have expressed their opinions on the fact that being on a Sega website did not at all influence the outcome of the poll. To them, Bloodlines is simply the better game.
So to end this debate, the task has fallen upon me to take this poll to a community where the bias is close to zero to either one of these titles. I think I might have arrived at the right place.
Let the best game win!
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Welcome to the Forums!
Interesting poll. As Castlevania fans, we have fans of both games in here. However, I do believe that Super Castlevania IV is going to gather more votes, as it is quite possibly the highest ranking of the ClassicVania series of titles.
I love both of those titles, but Super Castlevania IV wins my vote.
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As Jorge said, SCIV will most likely win this poll. Bloodlines is great but SCIV is excellence.
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Thanks, Jorge!
Yes, your guess is exactly what I (and a minority of posters over at sega-16) think is going to happen. However, it is extremely hard to convince the vast majority of forumgoers over there, and many of them have called upon a topic like this to be made in a more or less "neutral" community to witness the outcome.
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I always find it really hard to pick favorites in any game series. Bloodlines and Super 4 have their own merits, but I'd have to go with 4 because of the atmosphere and nostalgia factors. Though Bloodlines is more of a challenge and has some unique locales.
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I'm freely voicing my opinion, and I DID like Bloodlines more than SCV4. I know there's a lot of SCV4 fans, and it will probably win, but I didn't care for it THAT much. I mean, it was alright, but most definitely not even close to being one of my favorites. And I'll get attacked by saying this, I never saw it as being the "Second Coming" that many hail it to be. Frankly, I didn't even care for the music, which is hailed as being one of the best in the series. To me, it was too synthy sounding(people are totally going to hate me for saying this) and SCV4's Blood Tears(again, which is hailed as being the best version) didn't do anything for me(sorry, RoB and X68000's versions rip it's ass out with gusto).
I didn't care for the sound FX, sprite animation and wonky controls either. Of course, the controls is said to be classic, but keeping it "that classic" isn't really something to brag about, IMO. Of course, if there's one thing I have to admit, I didn't play it when it was released, hence don't have the nostalgia attached to it as someone would've when it came out. That being said, I didn't play Final Fantasy II(SNES's FFIV) until 1998, and loved it and it's music.
To me, Bloodlines was a more enjoyable playing experience. Better music, easier controls, and cooler story concept(not the same old retelling of Simon Belmont). Intersting bit, I also didn't play this game when it came out. I think I tracked it down in the late 90s, after playing SC4, and still liked it more. Again, no nostalgia for either game.
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Super Castlevania IV. The level design, gameplay mechanics, and music style/atmosphere make it the winner here. The difficulty is also more balanced.
Bloodlines is definitely one of my favorites, though.
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Super Castlevania IV had the mood, the music, the graphics, the gameplay, and way better whip swinging.
NO CONTEST
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I love Bloodlines, and defend it whenever ninnies on this board crap all over it, buuuuuuut...
Castlevania IV is better in every possible way. Better level design, controls, music, graphics, and a helluvan atmosphere that can't be beat. There's no way I can understand someone preferring Bloodlines except for maybe that it offers a little bit more of a challenge.
Two of the best games in the series, though.
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I'm freely voicing my opinion, and I DID like Bloodlines more than SCV4. I know there's a lot of SCV4 fans, and it will probably win, but I didn't care for it THAT much. I mean, it was alright, but most definitely not even close to being one of my favorites. And I'll get attacked by saying this, I never saw it as being the "Second Coming" that many hail it to be. Frankly, I didn't even care for the music, which is hailed as being one of the best in the series. To me, it was too synthy sounding(people are totally going to hate me for saying this) and SCV4's Blood Tears(again, which is hailed as being the best version) didn't do anything for me(sorry, RoB and X68000's versions rip it's ass out with gusto).
I didn't care for the sound FX, sprite animation and wonky controls either. Of course, the controls is said to be classic, but keeping it "that classic" isn't really something to brag about, IMO. Of course, if there's one thing I have to admit, I didn't play it when it was released, hence don't have the nostalgia attached to it as someone would've when it came out.
To me, Bloodlines was a more enjoyable playing experience. Better music, easier controls, and cooler story concept(not the same old retelling of Simon Belmont). Intersting bit, I also didn't play this game when it came out. I think I tracked it down in the late 90s, after playing SC4, and still liked it more. Again, no nostalgia for either game.
I agree with everything you just wrote. I also like Bloodlines more than Castlevania IV.
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That's actually a pretty shitty rationale. That post basically reads as "YA KNOW THOSE THINGS THAT PEOPLE LIKE? I HATE THEM. JUST CUZ"
And I don't know wtf he was going on about the controls. Those are pretty much universally regarded as fixing the flaws of the previous "classic" games.
Also, the factor of nosalgia isn't even worth bringing up. I only started playing the classic titles after Dawn of Sorrow was released, and yet my views are contrary regardless.
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Really? They seemed like SNES version controls of the NES versions. I couldn't see anything that different, other than the change of sprite size. The control still feels blocky, through.
As for nostalgia, it only proves that both of us weren't affected by nostalgia during a playthroughs, even though our opinion on the game differs considerably.
Though, again, it's funny to see someone get so worked up about SCV4, after I just stated my opinoin. I mean, after reading other's opinions, many here basically listed the opposite of what I listed, and are free to like it to their hearts content. But, saying something negative, for shame.
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It's funny how people think that just putting a "in my opinion" disclaimer makes them immune to criticism.
You're on the internet, deal with it.
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I love SCV4 but to me, Bloodlines is better. I know, the music set the mood, control mechanics are great and some other elements make the game feel unique. But it just doesn't feel like a total Castlevania game to me. I personally prefer Bloodline for its score, its monster design, its level design(floating stepcases, mirror reflections, refractions), overall atmosphere(music really set the mood well here in this one, I just felt like I am travelling around Europe and beating up monsters). The controls maybe a little letdown but it's not that much of trouble to get around.
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It's funny how people think that just putting a "in my opinion" disclaimer makes them immune to criticism.
You're on the internet, deal with it.
I never said I'm immune to critism. If anything, I'm quite aware I was going to get critized(as I listed it in my first post).
It actually doesn't bother me as much as you.
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Really? They seemed like SNES version controls of the NES versions. I couldn't see anything that different, other than the change of sprite size. The control still feels blocky, through.
I guess in the NES games, you could:
(a) change direction mid-jump
(b) crack your whip in all directions
(c) let your whip hang to kill enemies below
(d) move while ducking
(e) jump on stairs
(f) move INTO stairs that are going downward instead of having to press down (lest you die)
and so on. CV IV improved the old game controls greatly, while still holding on to a lot of what makes them so great. Do you hate the NES games 'cos of their stiff controls or something?
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I never said I'm immune to critism. If anything, I'm quite aware I was going to get critized(as I listed it in my first post).
That makes your "im so innocent waah" comments all the more unfounded. Like your complaints.
It actually doesn't bother me as much as you.
Of course not, you're clearly just the victim of prejudice here!
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Now now, guys, calm down.
It is strange to hear a lot of the things that Castlevania IV is usually praised for, being neglected. Abnormal Freak has pointed out some wonderful examples of how Super Castlevania IV has improved the formula from the NES days.
I mean, just with controlled jumps alone...
But anyway, I think we should probably try to take a look at this in a more objective manner. Both the games are great now, and were great at the time they came out. But let's try to analyze things here:
EXAMINATION
Super Castlevania IV VS. Castlevania Bloodlines:
Graphics:
Super Castlevania IV
CV4 offers a very high color palette, provided for by the SNES graphics chip. It also offers a number of effects that were not available at the NES days, such as the Mode7 Rotating Room and Spinning Corridor. It also allowed for relatively large graphics to take over the screen, as well as multiple layers of graphics and animation. The 'style uses a mix of reds, purples, and browns, as well as some peppering of 'dithering' with its tile graphics, to create a very gritty, dirty feel to the objects.
Castlevania Bloodlines
Bloodlines offers a very high-contrast color palette, provided by the Sega Genesis graphic chip. Because of the color limitations, the palette is not as rich as the SNES palette, but the usage of it is very well-varied, as showcased on the radically different levels at times. The game, unlike CV4, uses very bright colors for its tiles, and also uses a very 'clean' look to it stylization of most platforms. That is, most of the platforms in the game have a very 'rectangular' sharp feel to them. Bloodlines also offers some interesting effects not done before, such as the moving reflections of the Atlantis Shrine (stage 2), the tilting of the tower in the Pisa stage, and the 'snaking' platforms of the same stage (to simulate a tall cylinder).
Sound:
Super Castlevania IV
We're really not going to talk much about the compositions themselves (topics about this have already been discussed for ages). However, we will talk of the amount of different, varied tunes, how they fit into the large amount of stages, and about the quality of such tunes. CV4 has a distinct 'baroque' feel to a lot of its tunes, which lends a distinct consistency to its arrangement that lends to some cohesiveness to the soundtrack, as opposed to titles like Symphony of the Night, which have awesome tunes that are so disparate from one another that sometimes lead one to question 'why?'. The instrumentation given the SNES sound chip is also worth mentioning, as the bassoon sounds like a bassoon, the strings like strings, and the percussion as such. It's worth mentioning.
Bloodlines
Bloodlines as amazing composition, which is shown by the fact that the titles are popular even today. What suffers greatly, however, is the sound quality. This is not because of Konami, but because of the Sega Genesis's sound chip, which at best, can only provide us with high-quality FM-Synthesis sounds. So, while the composition is great, the instrumentation is really not. We are fortunate that the instrument choices for most of the stages are very good. The Ruins of Castlevania, the Atlantis Shrine, Munitions Factory, and Castle Proserpina have some of the greatest tunes, but the Tower of Pisa and the Palace of Versailles tunes suffer because of the genesis's "Byooooooooooiiiaaaaanggggg" bass sounds and grating trebles. The percussion, especially the Toms, sounds a bit off-putting. This is not music that you can pop into your media player and do some easy-listening to, as at times your ears may argue with you.
Play Control
Super Castlevania IV
CV4 has, quite possibly, the most refined play control of any ClassicVania title. As it was pointed out before, it was the first CV that truly did controlled jumps on the main character (Grant in CV3 doesn't quite count as he's not the main character). The ability to whip in multiple directions, and the ability to use a subweapon with one button instead of the classic UP+ATK is a worthwhile addition. You can also use Subweapons in the middle of whip-swinging because of the R button (you can throw axes/crosses while stuck to a ring with Simon's other hand). Enemy placement is also well-regulated. The enemy locations make sense most of the time, and there's never truly a moment of cheapness (except, maybe, in the dungeon level with the disappearing platforms, or if you mistime a jump in the final crumblingstairs tower).
Castlevania Bloodlines
Bloodlines returns back to a more 'classic' style of gameplay. John and Eric jump in only two directions, straight up, and forward. There are no controlled jumps in this game. Some people may argue that this is a disadvantage, while others will say that it makes for a more controlled, strategic style of gameplay where decision-making is involved when making jumps. Whatever the case, this is what they decided to go with. We've got two characters instead of one, and we've got a number of other moves that have been added to the arsenal. While WhipSwinging still exists with John, there are only a few instances where it's really put to use (you can 'latch' on to any ceiling platform and you're invincible and become a weapon when swinging). Multidirectional swinging exists with John, but it's less directions than Simon. The Subweapons also use a different button, and can be "Crashed" with UP+SubWpn if you have enough Jewels. You can also powerup your whip/spear to a flaming ultimate level that lasts until you get hit. That is pretty spiffy.
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I have to talk about the big elephant in the room, though... that elephant is Release Time.
While one can argue that the Bloodlines and Cv4 have just about enough positive points to be counted as Equal... Super Castlevania IV is a release title for the SNES. This means that when the console was new, there was so much innovation with all the aforementioned aspects, that it's an explosion of a breakthrough. At release time, CV4 created a big splash with its innovations on the Castlevania formula. Bloodlines was released much later, with Rondo of Blood on the PCEngine coming out first (I believe). This means that the developers of Bloodlines had ample time to work out all of the obstacles that the Sega Genesis's hardware would have posed... and yet the game did not generate nearly as big of a splash. It is a solid, noteworthy title, but for the time it came out they really could have worked on it more. It feels as if it was just done to add another console style game, or to appease fans of that system. At least, that's what it feels like, to me.
You have two very good titles, but one was released much earlier than the other and it's just about as good (and most people will argue here that it's better in every way) than the other, while the other does not feature enough changes and improvements given the huge time window between the two titles.
Anyway, I hope that my little post here generates further discussion, and I hope it helps the original poster with his project with the other forum. Please feel free to discuss.
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I agree with most people here, SCV4 is the superior game. However, both are a lot of fun. I played both of them for the first time at about the same time a couple years ago, so nostalgia can't have anything to do with it, and SCV4 is in my opinion the superior game. The graphics, the music, the atmosphere, everything was top notch. I enjoyed the soundtrack for bloodlines, but the genesis was definitely holding the game back. The game could have been better in general if it was the the SNES. The level design was generally awesome except for the final level, and some of the graphical effects, like the tower (although the exact same effect had already been done on the NES in Kirby), were quite well done. Having multiple characters were a great idea, but some of their abilities were useless. There was never a situation that I needed to use Eric's spear twirling move for instance. I actually didn't even notice it existed until my second play through. I love the game too, but its definitely inferior to SCV4 and even Rondo of Blood.
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I think the biggest problem of the comparison is that Super Castlevania IV is THE Castlevania game, one way or another. It's the most representative title of the saga, the core formula, the episode everything gets compared too.
Bloodlines is the possibly the first "sidestep" episode, the one that tries the "out of the box" thinking. I really like it, but naming it the best episode would be like saying that CV actually works best when it diverges from its core formula.
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Super Castlevania IV, hands down.
I really love Bloodlines too, but it's nowhere near as polished and majestic as Super CV4. The games are hard to compare cause they're very different. Bloodlines is faster and more colorful, while Super CV4 is slower, darker and more.. uhm...EPIC.
Bloodlines: 8/10
Super CV4: 9.5/10
IMHO.
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If it was for the music, I would say Bloodlines, I don't like that synth tunes from SCIV (except The Cave, that music is amazing). But the controls... they're amazing for someone like me who played the NES versions to death. The level design and Mode 7 graphics are/were really amazing too, so it's my vote.
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There's no point in picking on somebody for liking a different game, even if you think their reasons are stupid.
Anyway, CV4 is hands-down the better title for me. It's possibly the best game in the series! I played the game when it came out, and I've loved it ever since, so maybe my view is a bit rose-tinted. But it just takes everything in the classic CV style to the next level. The mood is the most obvious thing. It seems so much darker and ominous and, well, more real than the others. When you play CV4 and then go to any other classic CV, they all seem like a cartoon compared to CV4. You could blame that on the limited color palette for the NES CVs, but not for Bloodlines, Rondo, or Dracula X SNES. It's like the adult version of CV1.
I think the soundtrack is the other high point of CV4. It's been discussed to death before, so I won't go into it too much. But it remains one of the most glorious game OSTs today, and when you consider how old it is and how realistic it sounds, it really impresses.
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I guess in the NES games, you could:
(a) change direction mid-jump
(b) crack your whip in all directions
(c) let your whip hang to kill enemies below
(d) move while ducking
(e) jump on stairs
(f) move INTO stairs that are going downward instead of having to press down (lest you die)
and so on. CV IV improved the old game controls greatly, while still holding on to a lot of what makes them so great. Do you hate the NES games 'cos of their stiff controls or something?
Yeah, thouse were some improvements, but some of them I didn't care for. The multi-directional whip thing didn't phase me, nor "limp whip" attacks. Changing direction in mid-jump was nice, wasn't the best example of that feature(I think later games made it more smooth, even though SCV4 originated it). I DID like crouch walking, jumping onto stairs and LOVED swinging from whips. Those are things I WILL give SCV4 credit for. :)
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That makes your "im so innocent waah" comments all the more unfounded. Like your complaints.
Of course not, you're clearly just the victim of prejudice here!
Yikes, hostile much? And playing the prejudice card? LOL. Go ahead, I'm not asking you to like my opinion, agree with it or like me, because I'm sure I feel likewise about you.
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I have a soft spot for Bloodlines, but Super Castlevania IV is by far my favorite game in the series. Everything about it is simply perfect.
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Bloodlines was my first Castlevania game, way back when. I didn't play SCVIV until many years later on the virutal console. Even with all that nostalgic bias, the latter still wins out for me.
They're both really great games, but SCVIV plays better, has my favourite soundtrack of any game, and has such a strong cohesive feel to it.
Though if were talking consoles I'd prefer a Megadrive/Gensis over a SNES any day ;)
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I think I have to go with 4. Tim Rogers at Action Button.Net has an interesting take on Bloodlines, I don't aways agree with him but his lengthy reveiws are worth a good read.
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i liked bloodlines more. I guess it has something to do with the magic that thes eguys worked with the limited architecture of the gensis.
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So Super Castlevania 4 vs Castlevania Bloodlines.
Graphics:
SCV4 have very dark and gloomy feel to it. It gives player impression that he is in a very old and cursed place. CVB uses more vibrant colours and look a bit cartoonish. It's a very different approach to the visuals, so there are hard to choose what is better. I personally go with a SCV4. CVB is a bit to bright for me.
Special effects:
While SNES had Mode 7 and could create some awesome 2D effects, I think this mode was underused in SCV4. I could remember only three instances where it was widely used - short rotating corridor, rotating room and battle with golem. It's good and all, but I think a bit more effects wouldn't be bad. To be honest I was kind of disappointed with quantity of Mode 7 goodness in this game, especially after playing Contra 3. CVB, while didn't had Mode 7, had much more impressive use of special effects - Tower of Piza and mirror hall just blew my mind, when I first saw them. Also I like that in CVB there is some intearction with background. Like in the second stage player must knock statue head to create bridge over the water. So in short I was much more impressed with diversity and quality of the CVB special effects.
Music:
In my personal opinion SCV4 has the best soundtrack out of all Castlevania games. It is moody and fit the game like a glove. It is very consistent and arrangement is just awesome. SNES sound chip really showed in this game what it capable of. Besides I think this game has the best version of Bloody Tears.
As for CVB soundtrack, Jorge D. Fuentes already said, that while melodies are good arrangement is horrible. I mean there are good soundtrack on the Genesis, but CVB isn't one of them. Melodies crafted in vein of the classic music sound just bad on the Genesis sound chip. Some melodies sound more or less good - like Iron Blue Intention and boss music. But most of the music is just casual Genesis "electro-clanking". The best testament of the quality of this soundtracks - if it's possible to listen to them separately from the games. In case of SCV4 I could listen it's soundtrack for hours. In case of CVB - I couldn't take more than 5 minutes of it's music. So SCV4 definitely wins this one for me.
Gameplay:
Once again those two games are very different form each other in their approach to the most important aspect of the game. SCV4 gameplay is kind of modernized and improved version of the CV1 gameplay, while CVB sticks to basics. I'd say staying true to traditions is good, bit not in all cases. So while I like how CVB stayed true to somewhat limited CV1 gameplay I don't see it as a good think. Evolution must triumph. Simply controlling Simon in SCV4 was much more comfortable and enjoyable, then playing as a John in the CVB. So in this case I once go with the SCV4.
Also about difficulty - SCV4 is more or less balanced game, while CVB sometimes downright cruel. It's not bad thing, though.
Story:
SCV4 another rehasn of CV1 storyline. But playing as Simon Belmont in his 16-bit glory was awesome.
CVB tried to do something really new, and tied Castlevania with Stoker's novel. It was intererestng move, but somewhat underplayed in the later instalments. Besides it had introduced some plot holes that still waiting to be fixed.
Total:
SCV4 wins. However I'll never say that CVB is a bad game. It is awesome in it's own right. I was blown away by scope and quality of this game, but there some nuisances that I just couldn't stomach. Like less controlable characters and badly arranged soundtrack. Overall both game are good, just SCV4 slightly better.
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Jeorge deffinitly covered all the bases with his SCV4 Vs. Bloodlines and I agree with it all. The one thing that stood out for me about bloodlines is that it's a sequale to my favoret Novel; Bram Stoker's Dracula. And the game does nice to bring this classic literature into the CV universe... That was until IGA took over and F**ked it up. Anyways, I love both titles. They're both really good solid games to play, but my personal favoret will always be Super Castlevania IV. ;)
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I adore the sound programming in Bloodlines, ha ha. IV is the better soundtrack (as mentioned: moody, consistent, realistic instrumentation), but I still really love what Yamane did with the Genesis for that game. I have a fascination with the system's warbly sound, and the game sounds...extra warbly.
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Actually it's quite balanced... not TOO warbly (you wanna talk warbly? Let's talk Ecco the Dolphin).
I will agree that it's one of the better-programmed soundtracks for Genesis, right up there with Streets of Rage and the Sonic games.
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I adore the sound programming in Bloodlines, ha ha. IV is the better soundtrack (as mentioned: moody, consistent, realistic instrumentation), but I still really love what Yamane did with the Genesis for that game. I have a fascination with the system's warbly sound, and the game sounds...extra warbly.
I totally agree! And the game had some great new themes like Iron Blue Intention.
As for which game I prefer: Castlevania IV. The game is bigger, has more levels, better controls, and is more atmospheric.
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The music in the first two Streets of Rage games is so close in quality to dance/house/swingbeat tunes of the day, it's kind of uncanny that anyone was able to get such sounds out of the Genesis.
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I wonder if Konami will ever make another Castlevania like Super Castlevania IV, same controls and everything.
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I wonder if Konami will ever make another Castlevania like Super Castlevania IV, same controls and everything.
One can only dream....*wonders if konami will ever make another castlevania like castlevania....
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I always thought the 8-way whip in SC IV cheapened the gameplay. While the game has great control overall, it almost feels like cheating compared to other games in the series because a lot of the strategy involved in planning how to approach enemies is removed due to being able to reach enemies above and below without the need of the axe or other sub weapons. This may also be the reason this style of control was never reused in later games. I will agree that SC IV does have a creepy dark atmosphere complemented by a excellent soundtrack that really fits the game well. However i prefer the stages and gameplay of Bloodlines over SC IV, due to the fact that SC IV has virtually no challenge until you reach Dracula's Castle and by then the game is already half over. Bloodlines feels more like a 16 bit version of the classic NES titles to me. This is why Bloodlines gets my vote. I know i'm in the minority here but thats why we have opinions.
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I agree that Bloodlines is pretty tough, especially on Expert. A new 2D game with the whipping of CV4 would be great if the enemies and level design worked to make it hard even with that freedom, but that would be a challenge in itself.
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I wonder if Konami will ever make another Castlevania like Super Castlevania IV, same controls and everything.
I'd love to see an "HD remix" released for PS3/360: exactly the same gameplay, only hi-res 2D graphics and re-arranged music, just like SSFII and Earthworm Jim.
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I always thought the 8-way whip in SC IV cheapened the gameplay. While the game has great control overall, it almost feels like cheating compared to other games in the series because a lot of the strategy involved in planning how to approach enemies is removed due to being able to reach enemies above and below without the need of the axe or other sub weapons. This may also be the reason this style of control was never reused in later games. I will agree that SC IV does have a creepy dark atmosphere complemented by a excellent soundtrack that really fits the game well. However i prefer the stages and gameplay of Bloodlines over SC IV, due to the fact that SC IV has virtually no challenge until you reach Dracula's Castle and by then the game is already half over. Bloodlines feels more like a 16 bit version of the classic NES titles to me. This is why Bloodlines gets my vote. I know i'm in the minority here but thats why we have opinions.
I'm curious... What is your take on Chronicles? It allowed whipping forward, down, and down diagonal, but not up or up diagonal.
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The downward whipping in chronicles didn't bother me since it seemed to only really be useful when jumping at an enemy. Since most enemies are placed above you and not below, it does not impact the gameplay nearly as much. Also the whip in Chronicles seems to be as long as the NES games, not the super long SC IV whip.