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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: kompwars on June 05, 2011, 09:18:52 PM

Title: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: kompwars on June 05, 2011, 09:18:52 PM
so i know SotN is a sequal to rondo of blood, but im still confused on some parts of the game. How old is maria? Isn't SotN 5 years after rondo? she looked like she's 10 in rondo and in SotN she looks like shes 25. and i thought dracula come back to life after 100 years or somthing why only 5 years?
One more thing
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: kompwars on June 05, 2011, 09:21:47 PM
oops i accidentaly pressed enter -__-
wat the last thing i was trying to say was, Is SotN the last game in the timeline with the actually dracula? because at the last battle he's like forgive me lisa and he'sfeeling all guilty, but in order of eccesia and PoR hes like
HAHAHAHHAHA IM EVIL >:)
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: crisis on June 05, 2011, 09:32:58 PM
Maria Renard is 17 in SotN, which makes her 12 in Rondo.

Vlad Dracula comes back whenever humanity's faith in God is weakened, which is around, but not limited to, every 100 years. He's back in Symphony cuz Shaft revived him prematurely, and it's hard for an immortal vampire like Dracula to stay dead. He only shows "guilt" towards Alucard because he knows he will never be reunited with Lisa again. That doesn't change his attitude towards humanity.

 :P
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Claimh Solais on June 05, 2011, 09:38:48 PM
And basically whenever he's prematurely brought back to life, he loses the memory of his last incarnation. Which happened in almost every single game after SotN.

Yeah, Maria is 17 in SotN, and 12 and Rondo, like Crisis said.
Richter is 19 in the first game, and then 24 in the sequel.
I won't even begin to wonder how old Al and Drac are. (around 300 and 700 respectively)
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: kompwars on June 05, 2011, 09:41:43 PM
oh..so everytime people force dracula's revival he loses all his memories before it..bummer i liked SotN dracula. But isn't Soma dracula now? >:(
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Claimh Solais on June 05, 2011, 09:47:14 PM
oh..so everytime people force dracula's revival he loses all his memories before it..bummer i liked SotN dracula. But isn't Soma dracula now? >:(

More or less. More accurately, he's a reincarnation of the previous Dracula.

Think of Soma as Mathias's second chance with humanity.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: K.G. Morder on June 05, 2011, 09:56:54 PM
Where was it said he loses the memory of his previous inarnations when he is brought back prematurely? it explains a lot, but, where was it said?
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Claimh Solais on June 05, 2011, 09:58:56 PM
Where was it said he loses the memory of his previous inarnations when he is brought back prematurely? it explains a lot, but, where was it said?

I remember reading it off of an IGA interview, but I don't remember where I found it. I also saw it on some website. I'll link it if I find it again.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: X on June 06, 2011, 12:20:44 AM
I remember reading it off of an IGA interview, but I don't remember where I found it. I also saw it on some website. I'll link it if I find it again.

There's no way I can trust that interview considering that Dracula's memory remains intact. Cause he still remembers the Belmonts, His wife Lisa, his son Alucard, etc. I have no idea what IGA is thinking whenever someone gives him an interview, or what possesses him to make such contradictions about the info he himself wrote up in the first place. This guy getting more messed up through his own faults by the day  :P

-X
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Claimh Solais on June 06, 2011, 01:42:36 AM
I remember reading it off of an IGA interview, but I don't remember where I found it. I also saw it on some website. I'll link it if I find it again.

There's no way I can trust that interview considering that Dracula's memory remains intact. Cause he still remembers the Belmonts, His wife Lisa, his son Alucard, etc. I have no idea what IGA is thinking whenever someone gives him an interview, or what possesses him to make such contradictions about the info he himself wrote up in the first place. This guy getting more messed up through his own faults by the day  :P

-X

Wait, I don't think it was an interview. Some Konami site though. I believe it was an official announcement, but I dunno.

It says he loses the memory of previous incarnations, though in the next rebirth, he gets those memories back. Problem is, he doesn't receive ALL of the memories. Like after SotN, he probably forgot about that little talk Alucard gave him.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: K.G. Morder on June 06, 2011, 05:09:57 AM
Sounds like an IGA fuckup to me.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: crisis on June 06, 2011, 06:56:21 AM
You should provide a source that says that, cuz I don't remember Konami or IGA or any game claiming "Dracula's memory is wiped with each resurrection" anywhere. Sounds like some mistranslated excerpt, or just typical fan speculation o_O
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Claimh Solais on June 06, 2011, 06:59:56 AM
I remember reading it off of an IGA interview, but I don't remember where I found it. I also saw it on some website. I'll link it if I find it again.

EDIT: Let's assume its fan speculation for now. I can't find where I read it at.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on June 06, 2011, 07:28:29 AM
On top of that, he seems to remember most, if not everything, in the Judgment dialogues.
He remember EVERYONE there.

In SotN it's more like "Lisa, forgive me.... (but I cannot/will not stop this).... farewell, my son!".  At least, that's how I see it implied.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: thernz on June 06, 2011, 07:52:36 AM
Makes me wish Juste was in that game heh.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: darkwzrd4 on June 06, 2011, 08:24:31 AM
On top of that, he seems to remember most, if not everything, in the Judgment dialogues.
He remember EVERYONE there.

In SotN it's more like "Lisa, forgive me.... (but I cannot/will not stop this).... farewell, my son!".  At least, that's how I see it implied.
I agree with Jorge.  I think that it has to do with the Chaos.  While it is partially explained in AoS, there is a stream of Chaos flowing through the castle making it a creature of chaos.  The castle is also a product of Dracula's powers meaning that his powers are linked with the Chaos somehow.  Considering that the Chaos comes from the evil in people's hearts and the fact that it starts flowing into Soma when he defeats Graham, it would seem that the master of the castle, which is Dracula in SotN, is at least partially possessed by the Chaos enough to keep him evil.  That being said, it seems that Dracula can have moments of true clarity after being defeated by someone he has a emotional connection too (for example his son, Alucard).
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on June 06, 2011, 08:53:11 AM
Indeed.

As darkwzrd4 says, there is a stream of evil about.  Here's how I see it.

-Mathias curses God, takes Ebony & Crimson stone, defies god.  Ebony Stone makes him a Vampire.   Crimson Stone makes Death his loyal confidant, Death cannot touch him (I forget if I have my stones mixed up).
-FAN ADDENDUM: It is my belief that the stone that makes him a vampire makes him have a pact with an ancient demon, Chaos, who resides in another dimension.  Either that, or in the events of Castlevania III, when Mathias, now renamed Dracula, declares his war on humans, makes this pact (before, during, or after his defeat as he dies).
-Since then, the power of Chaos rules over Dracula's more violent side.  When the 100-years milestones happen and the power of the evil in humans' hearts is at worst, Dracula has a more powerful but more chaotic disposition when he's resurrected.  He may not remember anything aside from "destroy all humans" or "humans are to be your prey".  Whatever humans he kills or feasts on power both him and Chaos.
-When Dracula is resurrected prematurely, Chaos's power, since it's powered by the evil in people's hearts, is not as strong within Dracula.  As such, he's able to remember some memories and/or glimpses of his previous escapades.

Let us examine the times Dracula remembers the Belmonts (and any others) properly:

-Dracula is able to remember Trevor, to a degree, in Curse of Darkness (as Isaac, no?  It seems he does).
-Dracula is able to remember Christopher to a degree, in Belmonts' Revenge, otherwise he would not have taken his son.  There is no dialogue in the game to confirm this, though it is implied as why would someone who has no new memories bother to mess with the Belmonts specifically?
-Dracula is able to remember Simon in Simon's Quest, because it seems that Dracula put the curse on Simon AND had the foresight to both know that a Belmont would come to him and that he would get another shot at defeating him.
-Dracula is able to remember the Belmonts in particular, in Harmony of Dissonance, though he doesn't know Juste personally.
-Dracula is able to remember the Belmonts in Rondo of Blood, specifically coming after Richter's Girlfriend Annette, as well as Maria Renard.  He is more destructive in this reincarnation.
-Dracula is definitely able to remember his own son Alucard, as well as know who Richter is, in Symphony of the Night.  Dracula is ridiculously prematurely resurrected in this one, so he seems to be at his most 'human' upon his defeat.
-Dracula is able to remember the Morris clan upon his premature Moon-Ritual resurrection in Circle of the Moon; a premature resurrection done shortly after another premature resurrection, with no game of its own.  In THIS reincarnation he even notices the character's aging.
-Dracula remember no one in Castlevania64/LoD, as the bad guys are doing a ritual similar to the Ritual of the Eclipse (more on that later), which separates Dracula's Soul and puts it on Earth.  This Blank-Slate Dracula (as Malus) remembers no one right know, but knows he's the lord of the Castle.
-Dracula remembers every Belmont, as well as side characters like Shanoa, Maria, and others, in Judgment.  I believe THIS Dracula is the least Chaos-corrupted, but the most human-arrogant one.  "You seek Chaos?  Look no further!"

It seems the Ritual of the Eclipse separated the power of Chaos from Dracula's soul.  Thus, Soma, Dracula's reincarnation and another chance at redemption, is the least corrupted version of him.  Chaos's power is not completely gone though, as it seems to beckon to him, to come forth to the Shinto Shrine in 2035 in the events of Aria of Sorrow.

The Power of Chaos is able to immediately corrupt Soma by tapping into remnants of Dracula's old memories.  Specifically, the death of Elisabetha and Lisa, and use them to turn Soma into Dracula and completely lose his will to be Human.  In AoS, he was able to control the Chaos.  In DoS, depending on whether you get the pendant in the Garden, you can see this manifest itself in its entirety.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: uzo on June 06, 2011, 09:07:25 AM
I dunno if there's anything to this memories thing to be honest. It's really vague in the classic games to begin with and arguably the concept was never really through through or cared about until later on. Even then, SotN is the only chance Dracula got to even converse with anyone he didn't hate to begin with. This is of course excluding LoI, but that was before all of this Chaos stuff anyway.

It's an interesting theory, but I can't imagine the writers for the series ever payed it any mind or thought about it at all.

If it was true though, it makes Dracula an incredibly weak and puppet like character. I don't like that idea one bit.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Claimh Solais on June 06, 2011, 09:09:04 AM
To be honest, I didn't either. I believe it was official, and it kinda sucked. But if it's not (which I'm assuming now, since it's not on any other site), then I'm all happy inside.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on June 06, 2011, 09:38:35 AM
I think it makes him more tragic, if he's no longer in control.
He's already tragic.  He's completely bound by the very humans he hates, and does not even return unless they will it to happen.

With this, he'd not only be bound by humans, but bound by Chaos as well.  Kinda a personal Hell, if you ask me.

Not sure if I like any of these, but it's how I thought of it.  It makes sense even if it's not a particularly nice thing to do to the character.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Claimh Solais on June 06, 2011, 09:48:08 AM
Well, I don't particularly like the whole Dracula being controlled by Chaos or whatever thing that the Sorrow chronicles have going on. I liked believing that Dracula is indeed a bad dude.

Put a spoiler here since it isn't necessarily on-topic with the thread. Ignore it otherwise.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: darkwzrd4 on June 06, 2011, 10:03:08 AM
Let me clear up a few things:
-Dracula wasn't really in Harmony of Dissonance.  That was just a evil spirit born in Maxim from his jealously of Juste and possessing Dracula's remains.  This spirit used the remains to create a vessel after he realized that he couldn't gain permenent control of Maxim.
-Soma could never control the Chaos in AoS.  After he defeats Graham, the Chaos starts to flow into him.  He resists it and goes off to confront it directly and beats it.  The only reason it doesn't full possess him immediately is because of Arikado's presence in the Throne Room.  I think that Soma defeating the Chaos severs it from him.  However, as we see in DoS, if he gets angry enough, the Chaos is appears and tries to possess him. 
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: K.G. Morder on June 06, 2011, 01:50:20 PM
Just gonna clear up the stones bit.

The EBONY Stone creates supernatural nighttime. It is what Walter used in order to make the forest eternally shrouded in night, giving it it's name of "Forest of Eternal Night" Since it creates supernatural darkness, his powers are amplified, presumably being the reason why the Whip of Alchemy could not harm him, whereas Dracula can be harmed by just about any weapon, no necessarily Just Vampire killer.

Leon destroyed this stone with Vampire Killer upon encountering him in the keep, thus destroying a big trump card of his.

the CRIMSON STONE allows one to capture the soul of a vampire and make it their own, absorbing it's power, at the cost of becoming a vampire oneself. Death, for whatever reason, swears allegiance to whomever has this stone.

Walter was unable to obtain the Crimson Stone, but had the Ebony Stone, which Leon destroyed. Mathias, with his Family's extensive knowledge of Alchemy, created a Crimson Stone, and used it to absorb Walter's soul when Leon defeated him, making him a Vampire and giving him Walter's abilities. (The teleport and fireball stuff, along with- possibly the ability to turn into a large monster)

Now, it is a mystery to me whatever happened to the stone upon his defeat by Trevor. Maybe it was lost, maybe Dracula sort of absorbed it's properties, who knows. The issue is Death still follows him.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: kompwars on June 06, 2011, 07:29:40 PM
On top of that, he seems to remember most, if not everything, in the Judgment dialogues.
He remember EVERYONE there.

In SotN it's more like "Lisa, forgive me.... (but I cannot/will not stop this).... farewell, my son!".  At least, that's how I see it implied.

hmm.. so your saying that he feels bad for what he's done but he still hates humans and he won't stop bringing evil to them right? But in the japanese version of SotN he says " Lisa...perhaps I was wrong the whole time..." and dies. So im not sure about that
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Nagumo on June 08, 2011, 02:17:13 AM
Perhaps Dracula became a good guy post-SotN but couldn't make himself clear because he kept getting killed before he could say anything.  :-\   
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: thernz on June 08, 2011, 02:09:20 PM
He was gentlemanly enough to ask Shanoa for a dance. Or maybe he felt violated when Barlowe kept poking around at his remains.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: kompwars on June 08, 2011, 08:34:17 PM
Didn't Lament of innocence kinda messed up part of the storyline?  Mathais(?)  is dracula right? In the DXC manuel it said that Lisa was the only woman Dracula ever loved. Then y in the hell did it say that Elizabetha was Mathais's wife in LoI?
...
or maybe im just ignorant
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Claimh Solais on June 08, 2011, 08:50:24 PM
Didn't Lament of innocence kinda messed up part of the storyline?  Mathais(?)  is dracula right? In the DXC manuel it said that Lisa was the only woman Dracula ever loved. Then y in the hell did it say that Elizabetha was Mathais's wife in LoI?
...
or maybe im just ignorant

We can go into technicalities. He wasn't Dracula when he loved Elisabetha. :P
 But then also, DXC came out after LoI also.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Inccubus on June 09, 2011, 05:15:09 AM
I'd chalk that up to a simple mistake.
Also, I generally ignore localizations in favor of the original version.
Localization teams seem to favor things sounding good in English over accuracy.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: K.G. Morder on June 09, 2011, 07:04:32 AM
Mega Man 1, 7 and X2 are probably the most serious offenders there...
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Claimh Solais on June 09, 2011, 07:25:41 AM
I'd chalk that up to a simple mistake.
Also, I generally ignore localizations in favor of the original version.
Localization teams seem to favor things sounding good in English over accuracy.

I'd agree in a lot of cases. For example, Soma was a foreign exchange student in the US version but not in the JP version. Talk about making him MORE cliche'd. (Feminine foreign exchange student with a fur coat and amazing white hair who seemed normal at first, only to figure out that he has these amazing powers that he must use for the greater good cuz the world depends on it. :\)

But there's a few things in the American version I prefer. For example, the use of "Belmont" over "Belmondo". The use of "Trevor" over "Ralph". The use of "Slogra" over "Berrigan". "Lecarde" over "Ricardo". But when it's story and script, that's a whole different story. I much prefer the JP-script for SotN, mainly cuz it sounds amazing compared to the weird dialog we got in the US (which gave us the meme's such as "Die monster!" and "What is a man?!", so thank the lord for that).
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Puwexil on June 09, 2011, 07:31:40 AM
They only became memes because of the hammy voice acting. The script itself is top class.

Alternate explanation: people are the worst.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: K.G. Morder on June 09, 2011, 07:34:19 AM
About 2 of the things you mentioned are pronunciation issues mostly. Lecarde is still Lecarde, but pronounced ricardo in Japanese. Same for belmondo. Thats how they pronouce Belmont.

to be honest, i think Soma being a foreign student makes a bit more sense. You wont find many Japanese people with Hispanic like names.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Claimh Solais on June 09, 2011, 08:00:49 AM
About 2 of the things you mentioned are pronunciation issues mostly. Lecarde is still Lecarde, but pronounced ricardo in Japanese. Same for belmondo. Thats how they pronouce Belmont.

to be honest, i think Soma being a foreign student makes a bit more sense. You wont find many Japanese people with Hispanic like names.

Well, according to translation people, Ricardo and Belmondo are actually the correct translations. I'm not too familiar with Japanese, but I've heard it enough. I know the Japanese pronunciation of Belmondo is Berumondo. I believe Ricardo would be something like Ricado.

Then again, most of the English translations of the names I think sound better overall.
Larned/Learned -> Renard
Valnumdez/Fernandez -> Belnades (though I have no problem with Fernandez)
Orlean -> Aulin
Ralph -> Trevor (how did they screw that up? I'm happy with it, though)

I realize you won't see many Japanese people with hispanic names. Maybe his papa was Spanish but his mama was Japanese? I really sounds like a gang member from where I live at. They mostly have the name Cruz and there's a "Soma" gang for that city Somerton.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: K.G. Morder on June 09, 2011, 08:06:41 AM
Berumondo is how they pronounce it. Belmondo is how they romanize that.

Same for "Ricardo"

Sort of how the "Castlevania" title in japan was called "Kyassurubania", which confused many a Japanese gamer, since the wordplay involved in the name only works with someone who speaks English and can understand the combination of words involved
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Inccubus on June 09, 2011, 09:28:33 AM
OK. Lemme shed some light on this Belmondo thing. Certain phonetic characters in Japanese change their pronunciation when they are within a word as opposed to when placed at the front. to/do is one of these. So the intent IS Belmont, but Belmondo is the closest you can get in Japanese. Before anyone asks, yes, I've studied Japanese. Thus, Belmont isn't  localization, it's the correct translation. I came across a similar thing in doing some Translations for Final Fantasy Tactics. There's a character in that game that was localized Draclau, but when I checked the katakana that appeared in the Japanese version it was Derakua, which obviously can't be Draclau because to do a 'dr' sound in japanese it's 'dora' as in dorakyura. Being that all the supporting cast names in FFT are madelled after different European regions it clicked that what they were intending here was actually a french name. De'Lacroix. Which mean 'of the cross' if I'm not mistaken which jives with the rest of the characters that are part of the church in that game. Often times the localizers don't have any detailed info to go on which causes all sorts of wierd translations. Like the Barrett enemy in Final Fantasy 1. If the localizer had played Dungeons and Dragons he'd have known that 'burei' was referring to the monster known as a Bulette. They screwed up a lot of those. Like the Ochu and Neochu are actually supposed to be an Otyugh and a Neo-otyugh. Happens all the time.

rica-do in Japanese is Ricardo, not Lecarde. Lecarde would be reca-du. There's no 'ar' sound in Japanese. They use a long 'a' sound instead.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: darkwzrd4 on June 09, 2011, 09:40:34 AM
Well, thanks Inncubus.  This sheds a lot of light on why character names seem to change when translated into other languages.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: K.G. Morder on June 09, 2011, 10:27:33 AM
Belnades is also mistranslated if i recall correctly. it is supposed to be Fernandez, making Carrie ironically, the only one with the correct name.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Inccubus on June 09, 2011, 11:34:18 AM
Belnades is also mistranslated if i recall correctly. it is supposed to be Fernandez, making Carrie ironically, the only one with the correct name.

That, I think, falls more closely under the label of 'mangled rather than 'mistranslated'. You are indeed correct, though.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: kompwars on June 09, 2011, 02:47:02 PM
its just how they pronounce it. im japanese myself. Like japanese people pronounce david  Debiito or pronouncing Alucard Alucaado
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: Claimh Solais on June 09, 2011, 02:55:36 PM
its just how they pronounce it. im japanese myself. Like japanese people pronounce david  Debiito or pronouncing Alucard Alucaado

Arukado. I know all the Harmony of Despair characters' names with Japanese pronunciation.
Title: Re: I'm confused with SotN's plot ( spoliers?)
Post by: kompwars on June 09, 2011, 03:09:05 PM
Arukado. I know all the Harmony of Despair characters' names with Japanese pronunciation.

ohohohohoho i always mixed up my l's with r's :p even my mom thinks its weird. tho i still prefer Alucado