Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Kensuke on November 20, 2007, 07:56:45 PM
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It's kinda funny, but sort of a miniature holy war seems to have erupted in regards to Sonia and IGA's treatment of female characters. While a majority of people seem to agree that Legends was a weak GAME, there seemed to be a larger number of people sympathetic to the CHARACTER. I noticed this when I stumbled across a couple of fan pages dedicated to Sonia Belmont and IGA's alleged sexism. Notable artist Robert DeJesus has even done fanart of her.
Note that the last allegation isn't limited to Sonia. There's a lot of people upset with the way Maria "de-evolved" in the DCX remake of SotN. Whereas she was pretty cool in the Saturn game, IGA decided to retcon her back to the cutesy crap in Rondo. Which was fine is Rondo, but when Kojima took the helm in terms of artwork it became stupid and counterproductive.
Then there's the infamous interview he made in regards to female protagonists, which really got a lot of people's panties in a bunch.
I suspect IGA ditched Sonia for two reasons:
1. He didn't like the idea of a female protagonist, and ESPECIALLY didn't like the idea of a female Belmont coming before his beloved Trevor.
2. Some of the insinuations made in her story (admittedly) would have had some ramifications on things that came afterwards. Such as her love affair with Alucard (which may or may not mean that Trevor is quarter Vampire).
I'm wondering if it would be possible to ditch Legends, but keep Sonia? To me, Sonia is as much a Belmont as the rest. And let's face it...she's pretty hot. If you don't like the "anime style" than I'm sure she'd transfer well to Kojima's style (the Rondo characters did, after-all).
- John
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Yeah, uhh I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there. Have you completed Lament of Innocence? The Vampire Killer (the Belmont whip of course) obtained its power through a woman. Her soul is what gives it its strength. So to suggest that Iga is a sexist and doesn't want a female protagonist is absurd.
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In Reply To #2
With respect, I think that's a weak argument You're not playing as a female. The Vampire Killer's power is not a protagonist. So it doesn't follow.
And FYI, I'm not *entirely* sure he's sexist. The argument wasn't originally advanced by myself, but rather by a number of other people (Google it, or I'll provide links for the interested). His idea to throw out Legends is a good one for reasons not related to Sonia herself. It's just that a few things he's said that have stirred controversy.
Nor do I understand why Sonia has to go. I'm sure there's some people at KCEN who worked hard on that game, even if they fell short in many respects. Might as well play homage to their efforts.
- John
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Your missing the point! Forget a playable male/female character. The power of woman's soul destroys Dracula.There's many great games that have been taken out of the timeline. That doesn't make them bad games at all. The 2 64 titles, CotM, and Legends are great games, they just don't fit into Iga's scheme of things. Your reading into this way too much. Iga knows what he's doing. Let the artist perform his craft.
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I'm wondering if it would be possible to ditch Legends, but keep Sonia? To me, Sonia is as much a Belmont as the rest. And let's face it...she's pretty hot.
Is that your main reason for wanting her to be in the timeline? If so, that's quite shallow. Besides, she's just a generic, blonde anime girl. I don't see what the big fuss is about.
Really, they'd be better off making another "hot" female Belmont than using Sonia again, despite the game she was created for being out of the timeline.
Talk about muddled continuity.
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It's kinda funny, but sort of a miniature holy war seems to have erupted in regards to Sonia and IGA's treatment of female characters. While a majority of people seem to agree that Legends was a weak GAME, there seemed to be a larger number of people sympathetic to the CHARACTER. I noticed this when I stumbled across a couple of fan pages dedicated to Sonia Belmont and IGA's alleged sexism. Notable artist Robert DeJesus has even done fanart of her.
Note that the last allegation isn't limited to Sonia. There's a lot of people upset with the way Maria "de-evolved" in the DCX remake of SotN. Whereas she was pretty cool in the Saturn game, IGA decided to retcon her back to the cutesy crap in Rondo. Which was fine is Rondo, but when Kojima took the helm in terms of artwork it became stupid and counterproductive.
Then there's the infamous interview he made in regards to female protagonists, which really got a lot of people's panties in a bunch.
I suspect IGA ditched Sonia for two reasons:
1. He didn't like the idea of a female protagonist, and ESPECIALLY didn't like the idea of a female Belmont coming before his beloved Trevor.
2. Some of the insinuations made in her story (admittedly) would have had some ramifications on things that came afterwards. Such as her love affair with Alucard (which may or may not mean that Trevor is quarter Vampire).
I'm wondering if it would be possible to ditch Legends, but keep Sonia? To me, Sonia is as much a Belmont as the rest. And let's face it...she's pretty hot. If you don't like the "anime style" than I'm sure she'd transfer well to Kojima's style (the Rondo characters did, after-all).
- John
I still consider legends canon, I love the game and sonia has some cool powers. and I don't think the baby in the end was alucard's though, it wouldn't make any sense for him to sleep with her if he hates his own bloodline. I think they had a thing but they never did it or did it with protection.
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In Reply To #4
How is this quote reading into things?
Although, I purposefully left the Sonia Belmont character (from Castlevania Legends for GBC) out of the official Castlevania chronology. (laughs) Usually, the vampire storyline motifs, females tend to be sacrificed. It's easier to come up with weak, feminine characters.
Alright...so a woman's power destroyed Dracula. And he does go on to say that he might revisit the idea of a female protagonist (perhaps in the 1999 game). Big deal. He still kicked out a Belmont BECAUSE she was a she.
- John
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Is that your main reason for wanting her to be in the timeline? If so, that's quite shallow.
Actually, no. It's not my main reason. Though it's *a* reason. If they replaced her with another female Belmont, I probably would be placated just as well. I also realize not everybody likes the anime style, and I think Kojima might do a pretty good job upgrading Sonia.
My question is, why reinvent the wheel? We got a female Belmont. Use her.
Talk about muddled continuity.
No shit. And to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure if IGA is making things better or worse.
- John
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In Reply To #1
First you say;
"but when Kojima took the helm in terms of artwork it became stupid and counterproductive."
But then later you go on to state, even a couple of times, that she'd do a good Sonia.
:S
Anyways, Iga get's blamed for everything bad about the series, but almost never get's any credit for the good stuff, poor guy... Anyways, he DID add only one thing from
the saturn version of SotN to chronicles, which he added to aswell, and that was a playable, and highly female, Maria.
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I have to ask, if IGA is sexist, why would he give his two right hand women (Michiru Yamane and Ayami Kojima) complete freedom over pretty much everything they do?
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Reply to post #9:
Right. Because Kojima didn't have anything to do with the TeddyBear crap. That was from Rondo. Maria was COMPLETELY different in the Sega Saturn version. She was bad ass and came into her own (albeit they really should have written a story for her). In the new SotN he thought it would be fun to make her more like the cutesy girl she was in in Rondo (gag).
Why people bag on the "juvenile" anime artwork in the DS games and then let this crap slide I don't understand. IGA gets attacked for many different things, but nobody seems to be consistent in their criticism.
- John
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In Reply To #10
Uhhhh....because they're over 9000 times more talented than he is? ;D
I didn't imply the man was a dumbass. :)
- John
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I've got no problem with a female Belmont or using Sonia as Trevor's mother. What I do have a problem with is that Alucard's his father and the she was supposed to be the first Belmont. If they changed those two things I'd be fine with them reusing her
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I've got no problem with a female Belmont or using Sonia as Trevor's mother. What I do have a problem with is that Alucard's his father and the she was supposed to be the first Belmont. If they changed those two things I'd be fine with them reusing her
Well what I gathered after playing LOI is that after Leon's encounter they stayed hidden and were training waiting for Mathias or drac as he's also known to make his move, so sonia was the first one to beat drac technically but not the first belmont. Also the game never specifically stated the baby is alucard's, it just says some time later sonia had him, and I would think it probably isn't cuz alucard hates himself. :)
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I'm sure women were allowed to do many important things before the 1950's.
Its perfectly logical why Belmont protagonists are guys. Look at the times they are in.
Things post PoR however have a greater potential for a female lead.
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The baby isn't necessarily Alucard's. Though it's STRONGLY implied in a "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" sort of fashion by the fact that the ending text says that the child has the "blood of dark ways" and that Sonia and Alucard were lovers. I can't remember what game it was, but this is later contradicted by the fact that the Belmonts are supposed to be of pure blood.
One thing that's fairly certain is that the child is Trevor. That's not in and of itself a bad thing, but it would cause major headaches given the above. It would mean that Trevor fights his own father in CV3 and Alucard is completely oblivious to it. I think that's a bit ridiculous.
In any event...I'm LITERALLY not hating the player, but rather the game. I think Sonia can be salvaged, even if Legends needs to be dumped for the sake of continuity.
- John
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In Reply To #15
Yeah, like Joan of Arc (who incidentally lived in the same time frame as Sonia). Destroying the English Army in the name of God is one thing, but killing vampires in the name of God is quite another. Back to the kitchen bitch!
Seriously....it's a video game....it doesn't HAVE to follow any set historical conventions. But even if it did, IGA's argument is flawed as all hell.
- John
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I find it humourous that ppl shout sexism towards IGA for removing Sonia since I believe the majority of ppl who are fans of her like her because she was major eye candy if you know what I mean. I mean, I don't see ppl gettin worked up on Reinhart or Nathen, but it is Sonia.
No offense, but she was a bland character, storywise. I mean, she is just a Belmont chick in a game that hardly have any prolong cutscenes or character developement. I know ppl can say the same to Simon, but he is different since before Trevor, he was the main protragonist in all the CV games.
If Iga adds a chick in scantily clad armour, I wouldn't be suprised she would have some sort of fan following. I mean, R.mika, a crummy Street fighter character imo, is popular for her large boobies.
I havent sleep for a day, so I may sound peeved, which is unintentionable.
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There's some disagreement as to whether the N64 games and CotM are completely out of cannon. Only that they're out of the main story arc. They're on the official Konami time line published in 2006 (Legends is the only one that's not there). IGA has said that they were developed to be side stories from the beginning. I take that to mean that the events depicted COULD have happened in the Castlevania universe, but have little bearing on the main story arc. Legends was always intended to be part of the main story arc, but all records of its existence have been nixed. Along with Sonia.
I agree that Sonia's character wasn't that well fleshed out, but honestly, VERY few of the Belmonts have been.
- John
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Eh, I thinkSonia could be a good belmont like everyone else, but from what I've heard of the story, and read on it, it didn't seem that great of a game. Her other game didn't make it out either. So I don't think Iga did anything bad about taking it out.
As for "his beloved Trevor," Trevor wasn't his creation iirc. So itsnot "his" persay.
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They're on the official Konami time line published in 2006 (Legends is the only one that's not there).
That thing was american made just like the entire preorder package, including watered down artbook made from low quality images. It wasn't official. Iga's official timeline still keeps these games out and has no mentions of them.
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The baby isn't necessarily Alucard's. Though it's STRONGLY implied in a "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" sort of fashion by the fact that the ending text says that the child has the "blood of dark ways" and that Sonia and Alucard were lovers.
I think the dark ways thing is really implying that the people feared them because of sonia's display of power and looked at their power as black magic and that she passed that power on to Trevor, remember before legends the belmonts hadn't displayed their great powers not since leon killed Walter but only Rinaldo lived to tell the tale, and if Trevor was the start of the belmont's super human powers via alucards blood, then Sonia shouldn't have been able to kill drac. Not to mention Alucard should have said something about it in 3 when they met, and I don't think it's strongly hinted at in legends, just a possible conclusion one could come to given the ending text is ambiguous as to who the father is. :)
Eh, I thinkSonia could be a good belmont like everyone else, but from what I've heard of the story, and read on it, it didn't seem that great of a game.
It's better than the other castlevania titles on the original gameboy. It's the most balanced and has the best controls. The drac. fight is pretty tough too.
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Yeah, uhh I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there. Have you completed Lament of Innocence? The Vampire Killer (the Belmont whip of course) obtained its power through a woman. Her soul is what gives it its strength. So to suggest that Iga is a sexist and doesn't want a female protagonist is absurd.
First of all, "power of a woman's soul" is hardly the same thing as "woman warrior." Second, one of the reasons IGA first cited that Legends was removed was because he felt that a female could not be a warrior during this era, that such a thing was unrealistic (because fighting Dracula, Frankenstein's monster, and a mummy, plus a bunch of other mythological baddies doesnt push suspension of disbelief by itself). So, his initial reason for removing Legends from the timeline was quite sexist, but wrapped up to look legitimate.
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I think they had a thing but they never did it or did it with protection.
What kind of protection did they have in 1450?
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What kind of protection did they have in 1450? I think a leather condom might take the fun out of things a bit.
If it were a chinese setting, I wouldve said a bamboo condom... but ... since its not.........
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What kind of protection did they have in 1450? I think a leather condom might take the fun out of things a bit.
Yeah, that'd be funny, I can see it now
Alucard: hold on a sec. honey lemme put my leather on, okay let's go!
Sonia: Hell no!, last time I bled for a week down there! ;D
If it were a chinese setting, I wouldve said a bamboo condom... but ... since its not.........
ow man that'd be brutal.
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I like Sonia as a character, but I dislike Legends in general. Sonia should've never been THERE, IMO. I think she's better fit for being the start of the Morris clan. It was already listed in the family tree that the Morris clan extends out of the Belmonts AFTER Trevor, but BEFORE Christopher. It would HAVE to be a DAUGHTER of the Belmonts who marries into the Morris clan, thus her children would inherit the Belmont blood, but would inherit the Morris surname. And that role, alone, would be VERY important when you bring Quincey, Johnny and Jonathan into the mix. And that has always been my thoughts on the matter. Sonia was TOO GOOD for Legends. Trevor was suposed to be the FIRST Belmont to kill Dracula, so Sonia doing so basically retcon's Trevor's importance. Trevor's main accomplishment, claim to fame, WAS the fact that he was the first to defeat Dracula. IGA comes off as being very biased regarding the games he loves. I think if I was that biased, I would've nixed Legends too. You don't mess with the storyline of the games he loves. You don't say something in CV3 was NOT correct. I think a lot of fans would actually be as biased. It's a fan's nature, actually. We all have our "loves" of games, and it's kinda like a lowblow when we see someone else make fun of our precious games.
AND, I still have that hunch that the Legends team made that game solely to capitalize on SotN's fame. There is no other reason Dracula and Alucard would be designed to look EXACTLY llike their SotN versions. I call it Alucard wanking. They just HAD to through Alucard into the picture, and make him Sonia's BOYFRIEND, no less. They could ONLY do that if the Belmont was female. That would be, IMO, sexist. Choosing to make a lead character female only so that she could be an object of affection to a cooler male character. Did they not think Sonia, alone, couldn't pull in the gamers? They had to bring in Alucard to get the SotN fanboys' attention. That, IMO, was wrong.
But yeah, it would be hard to see IGA "salvaging" her. If anything, it's much more easier to make another female heroine Belmont. I don't see IGA ever considering to salvage Nathan or Reinhardt. And that has nothing to do with gender. Resurrection was never completed, thus has never been a part of canon for the fact that it was never released. Victor falls into this category, and I definately don't see him being "recalled" to star in another game. Though I AM kinda glad Resurrection got scrapped. Didn't like how it looked and it was a travesty what they did to Sonia. She looked like a man.
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Trevor was suposed to be the FIRST Belmont to kill Dracula, so Sonia doing so basically retcon's Trevor's importance. Trevor's main accomplishment, claim to fame, WAS the fact that he was the first to defeat Dracula.
When is this stated or implied? That's like saying because castlevania 3 takes place before 1 and simon wasn't the first to kill dracula so it's wrong, and if we wanna get really technical in the japanese version of 2, in the best ending it says simon kills dracula forever and we know that's not right, when you have a giant ongoing series like castlevania some things are gonna be fluid and apt to change. Having sonia kill him first does not in anyway affect trevor at all, Dracula was back with a vengeance and was on the verge of conquering all of europe, the catholic church tried to stop him was unsuccessful and the pope went out searching for Trevor, he found him and sent him to kill dracula, because of the direness of the situation and the church being involved, Trevor was regarded as a giant hero much like the allies at the end of WW2, whereas when sonia killed dracula the situation was totally different. I've never heard that Trevor's sole reason for being important and famous was because he was the first to kill dracula, all belmonts are regarded as heroe's after they've killed dracula look at Harmony of Dissonance and how much it idolizes simon and he wasn't the first to kill drac. A belmont gains fame and glory as a result of killing drac, not just for being the first to do so. Also I just remembered that the poltergiest king was supposed to originally give trevor his subweapons and legendary vampire killer whip and we know this has been retconned now because of LOI.
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I'm sure women were allowed to do many important things before the 1950's.
Its perfectly logical why Belmont protagonists are guys. Look at the times they are in.
Things post PoR however have a greater potential for a female lead.
Okay, except it's a game series about a super-human whip-weilding family that's cursed to fight the undead hordes of some guy who made himself a vampire/the lord of darkness by means of a magical red stone. This is a series that no longer reflects any connection to Bram Stoker, the historical Dracula, or anything even remotely related to traditional vampire lore. But, hey, I'm glad IGA decided to be historically accurate and cut a female protagonist from the timeline. ::)
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In Reply To #28
I forget where, but it does say hes the first to kill dracula. Its one reason why when LoI was made, Walter was the Vampire boss, not Mathias. That is not his sole reason of importance, hes also the one to bring honor or something to the Belmont family.... or something... iirc in CV3's ending.
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That thing was american made just like the entire preorder package, including watered down artbook made from low quality images. It wasn't official. Iga's official timeline still keeps these games out and has no mentions of them.
It holds no weight because it's American made...? Jeez, we Castlevania fans are snobs, aren't we?
But I think the point that was being made REGARDLESS of whether or not we're Japanophiles is that people don't bitch about Reinhardt or Nathan anymore because they're on some sort of KONAMI-MADE timeline somewhere. When they weren't, people bitched about them, too.
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In Reply To #28
I forget where, but it does say hes the first to kill dracula. Its one reason why when LoI was made, Walter was the Vampire boss, not Mathias.
Yeah but having mathias in place of the walter fight would have made no sense the story was set up so that when walter died mathias would take his soul and become a vampire. Unless this part was thought up later and originally you were supposed to kill mathias after he had already killed walter in that spot. :?
Also since he comes back 20 years later it can be inferred that sonia didn't really kill him, but it was all part of his plan to get her out of the way. We can assume that he remembered leon and his power and once he witnessed sonya's awesome power he faked defeat.(since we don't see her in 3 it can be assumed she's dead) Then he gathered his power and got ready to wage war on all of Europe.
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Yeah but having mathias in place of the walter fight would have made no sense the story was set up so that when walter died mathias would take his soul and become a vampire. Unless this part was thought up later and originally you were supposed to kill mathias after he had already killed walter in that spot. :?
It's little plot(hole) points like these that prove what an awesome storyteller IGA really is. "Let the artist perform his craft" or somesuch...right...
I guess this is where I put an end to this thread by saying that this point (and others) have been discussed to death time and again around here. Sonia, Mathias, IGA's mishandling of the series at large (despite some good games that have come under his reign)...all covered time and again.
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It's little plot(hole) points like these that prove what an awesome storyteller IGA really is. "Let the artist perform his craft" or somesuch...right...
Well yeah I agree but personally I found that part of the story to be quite lame, dracula the apitome of evil was just a man who got pissed cuz his girl died and stole his power from another vampire. I don't know that's just always been hard for me to accept. Loi also does a really bad job of explaining how Mathias became best buds with death, when he was an ordinary mortal man 3 seconds before. Death's just there at the end like he was thrown in at the last minute cuz they needed a main boss fight. Iga also could have told his story without totally retconning the other games, make them like alternate reality games or remake them, or change the date they occur or something in order to make them fit in with what he is trying to tell there was no reason to totally retconn them that's like a slap in the face to all the fans of those games.
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Well, its why I start to write fanfics for it... too bad I'm lazy lol. I shold start a mega man x one too, god knows Sigma shows up too many times for it to be a decent story.
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Actually, I think TLB is correct on this one. It was never explicitly stated in any of the games that Trevor was the first Belmont to kill Dracula. In some of the written material before 1998 it might have been but that's really easy to change. It's an easier retcon than killing an entire game.
Also, Alucard doesn't say anything to Trevor simply because Sonia didn't exist until 1998. So that doesn't prove that Alucard being Trevor's father wasn't what KCEN was going for, only that it's BS that wouldn't really work too well given CV3's undisputed canonicity. Personally, I think KCEN was being a bit too cute for their own good, which is why that whole thing needs to be explained. Perhaps having Alucard saying in some future game "I once loved a human woman" would be a nice bone to toss to the Sonia fans. Wouldn't hurt anything.
Also, VoDkA hit the nail right on the head. This whole crap about women not being able to do anything in 1450 is exactly that. IGA needs to get a new line. They tried to connect Bram Stoker (along with another Romania legend: Elizabeth Bartley) to the series starting with Bloodlines. And parts of Carmilla starting with CV2. All of this quickly disintegrated. Konami has always borrowed a lot of stuff, but there's no way you'll be able to integrate all vampire material in total.
- John
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Well, its why I start to write fanfics for it...
Yeah I should do that. The story we got could have been much better, like Mathias delving into the black arts for years until he becomes strong enough to cross over to the gates of hell and makes a deal with satan who grants him his powers and he takes death as his servant after making his pact with the devil. Leon completes his whip and kills Walter who was only a front and was given the ebony stone by Drac/mathias so drac could test it's power. However Leon is stronger than he anticipated and he sends death after him and then he fights him until he realizes even he can't win at this stage and he'll need to gather more power before he can stand up to a belmont, so he retreats and hides while he increases his own powers and recruits more minions like frankenstein, the mummies, other vampires, the mother medusa who produces the little flying medusas, among other evil vile creatures, and begins the contstruction of the first castlevania which he would bind himself spiritually to and be able to constantly ressurrect it over time if it was ever destroyed. When he is confident in his powers he wages his first war against europe.
Also, Alucard doesn't say anything to Trevor simply because Sonia didn't exist until 1998.
- John
well if Alucard didn't know he had a son, regardless of if he was or wasn't the father he probably wouldn't have said anything about sonia, he's a really private guy and seems to hate himself alot. And if he did even suspect Trevor might be his boy (remember the manual for Legends and the game are very vague on the stage of their relationship and he may have not even slept with her, plus she was 17 giving her plenty of time to find someone else and have a kid) I don't think he would have said anything either cuz Alucard wouldn't want Trevor to know he's a quarter vampire even if sonia told him cuz he hates his own bloodline.
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Well yeah I agree but personally I found that part of the story to be quite lame, dracula the apitome of evil was just a man who got pissed cuz his girl died and stole his power from another vampire.
So I guess you don't like SotN's story either? Y'know, the whole Dracula x Lisa fling... iga was just elaborating on what SotN established. It's not really that hard to swallow.
Loi also does a really bad job of explaining how Mathias became best buds with death, when he was an ordinary mortal man 3 seconds before.
I'm sure they had a couple hundred years to get to know eachother, though ;)
Death's just there at the end like he was thrown in at the last minute cuz they needed a main boss fight. Iga also could have told his story without totally retconning the other games, make them like alternate reality games or remake them, or change the date they occur or something in order to make them fit in with what he is trying to tell there was no reason to totally retconn them that's like a slap in the face to all the fans of those games.
The games still exist, you can still plug them into the game console & play them. The timeline shouldn't matter to you or anyone else!
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv119%2Fc0mbat%2FSonia3.gif&hash=663d7692603f32d562df84e92334fe5e98fd3bc6)
Some fans are just way too emotional ::)
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So I guess you don't like SotN's story either? Y'know, the whole Dracula x Lisa fling... iga was just elaborating on what SotN established. It's not really that hard to swallow.
I'm sure they had a couple hundred years to get to know eachother, though ;)
The sotn thing is completely diff. there's no comparison. Dracula realizes when lisa dies that humans are barbaric and looks at them like animals and lesser beings, that was actually a really cool twist in SOTN. The Mathias thing was him turning cuz one woman died and he couldn't handle it and was weak so he thought up this whole scheme to kill Walter just so he could absorb his soul and was his revenge against god so to speak, Now if he was some minor villian this would have been alright but I think it is beneath dracula. He should have been granted the power by a diety, satan, finding a powerful artifact etc., not stolen it from some lesser being, that cheapens his character.
The timeline shouldn't matter to you or anyone else!
True but by removing those games he's made it impossible for them to ever be released/updated again, cuz they don't exist to him. We're stuck with the N64 and gameboy graphics with no special features or anything and no chance at getting any.
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It holds no weight because it's American made...?
Yep. It's an equivalent of a fan work. The american division of konami never had complete control over the series and never will, seeing as their best and only effort to create a cv game was that poor resurrection with its retarded character designs (speaking mainly of villains. Dracula looks gay, the vampire woman is totally retarded, sonia looks like a horse etc) that eventually got killed when they got in trouble with the japanese division. Shows just how much influence on the series they have. ::)
Also back on legends topic, too bad Alucard shouldn't even be born or be a little kid during legends. Lisa died young in 1470, so alucard, being her son couldn't have been more than 16-25 during that. Legends happens 20 years earlier. Lisa was just a human not a vampire.
Actually, I think TLB is correct on this one. It was never explicitly stated in any of the games that Trevor was the first Belmont to kill Dracula. In some of the written material before 1998 it might have been but that's really easy to change. It's an easier retcon than killing an entire game.
Yes it was stated. In original cv3's prologue, not the shitty translation with poltergeist king fanfic character.
"More than 100 years before Simon Belmont, Dracula and mankind's battle begins..."
That more less shows, that this is the mark where the battle of Belmonts and others against Dracula started. Not some sonia who kills him for unknown reasons and whose feat was never documented, unlike for example Christopher's game which was referred to in cv1's manual.
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Though it's already two pages later, I would like to mention that the Vampire Killer was made by bonding Sara's soul with Leon's hatred and Rinaldo's magic powers. Even if she was a large factor in the creation of the whip, she wasn't the sole factor.
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In response to John/Kensuke
This is a pointless topic. You are obviously not a true fan. If not for Iga, who knows where the series would be. If your playing Castlevania games to play as a "hot" girl, your in it for the wrong reason. Maybe Castlevania isn't for you. Maybe Tomb Raider would be a series for you to look into... the end
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...You are obviously not a true fan.
You did not just seriously say this.
As for the rest of your post, he had other reasons for why Sonia should be salvaged from the timeline retcon.
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In Reply To #43
yes. I did. If people just want to bitch, find something else to play. It's really that simple. Again, Iga knows what he's doing. And that's the bottom line.
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In Reply To #44
The reason the forum exists is for everyone to discuss what they like/dislike about the Castlevania series. Just because it's a fan forum doesn't mean there's an obligation for everyone to go, "Oh, IGA~" *fapfapfapfap* in every single post. If that were the case, a lot of people would've left already.
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In Reply to #42 and #44
True fan? What manner of nonsense is that?!
There was a Castlevania before IGA. And God willing, there will be a Castlevania after IGA.
Seriously though. The Sonia thing is just one controversy about IGA (and perhaps the most amusing). The other major thing I've seen is the direction the GBA and DS games have taken. Most of these complaints I've seen are from lurking here. One thing I don't see is people gushing about IGA's infallibility (aside from some minority fanboys like yourself). I think he's done some good things for the series (SotN in particular), but at the same time he also seems like somebody CV fans merely have to endure.
Here's my opinion:
A *true* Castlevania fan would not kowtow to what IGA says without first deciding for themselves. Period. End of story.
We're not even talking about Fannon either. We're talking about an OFFICIAL Konami game that exists.
The rest of your comments are pointless. Srigma, VoDkA, and TLB seem to get it though.
- John
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In Reply To #46
I dunno. I broke out Harmony of Dissonance again today and realised it's probably one of the most unappreciated games in my collection.
He did some good things for the series, but that doesn't make him a god or anything.
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In Reply To #47
HoD really is an under rated game. Of course Iga is not a "god". I have played the series since'86. I've played before Iga's involvement, and will play after. But what he's done for the series in my opinion is all good.
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"More than 100 years before Simon Belmont, Dracula and mankind's battle begins..."
That more less shows, that this is the mark where the battle of Belmonts and others against Dracula started.
Um no that isn't specifically saying Trevor was the first belmont to kill him, I interperet that as saying 3 was the most epic and biggest, all of mankind did get involved with the fight including the catholic church who sent an entire army after drac and failed, and Europe was on the verge of collapse, and it's why trevor is welcomed back to Romania and praised so highly afterwards, which is what I've been saying all along, granted it's all up to interpretation but it is possible to fit legends in there.
In Reply To #47
HoD really is an under rated game. Of course Iga is not a "god". I have played the series since'86. I've played before Iga's involvement, and will play after. But what he's done for the series in my opinion is all good.
Yeah I've been playing them since the 80's too, I started in 88 with simon's quest, and went back and later played the first one, and have played the others as they've come out. I want Iga to do what he wants to do, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna like everything he does and praise him in every post, and I have made certain tweaks to his timeline (generally regarding legends cuz I still consider that one cannon) and have my own unique one instead of just following iga's. Cuz whether he likes it or not he can't come in and take the games I've already bought away or erase my memories of them just cuz he doesn't consider them canon. And people saying true fans don't bitch is BS, look at all the people who hate what GL has done to the Original Star Wars trilogy, they aren't any less adamant about Starwars, they just don't like what GL has done, and aren't GL fanatics who will praise every dumb edit he's made to those films, I have yet to find one person who like's every single thing GL has added/changed in those films, same thing with castlevania, we are people with our own opinions and because we aren't Iga and are our own unique individuals of course there are gonna be things we like and things we don't and there are gonna be some people who like and accept everything cuz they like what iga has done better, we're all different. :)
In Reply To #46
I dunno. I broke out Harmony of Dissonance again today and realised it's probably one of the most unappreciated games in my collection.
Yeah it is really fun, it's one of my fav GB titles, and it had an oldschool feel. The thing I can't understand is why the music didn't utilize the GBA's full capabilities. :?
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In regards to Resurrections, we don't know for CERTAIN that it was going to be crap. We can only speculate. Just like we can only speculate even less about Bloodletting. I suspect that Resurrections would have been subpar, but I can't prove it and that's just an outgrowth of my natural pessimism and KOA's track record with games like Contra. The chara-design and story was lame, but the in-game graphics and music was reasonably decent. We might have ultimately ended up with a decent game.
In any event, IGA's toss out of Sonia effectively means we'll never even have a halfway decent chance of a good game involving her.
Also, again, I can't find the 100 year quote. Not in the game, and not in the Japanese timeline. There's no way CV3 happened 100 years before CV1 anyways. Trevor was 15th century. Christopher is 16th century. Simon is 17th Century. And Richter is 18th Century. Do the math.
And if Dracula can only ressurrect every 100 years...ummm...explain Bloodlines and the whole Morris bullshit? Having Sonia defeat Dracula is 1450 in lame, but having Dracula resurrect in 1917 is somehow better? I love the whole idea of WWI starting because of Elizabeth's Bartley's machinations, but it just screams "We need an excuse for another CV game!".
- John
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What proves IGA is sexist is Charlotte. Why? She sucks.
O.O
Jonathan does too, but he has a whip.
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Also, again, I can't find the 100 year quote. Not in the game, and not in the Japanese timeline. There's no way CV3 happened 100 years before CV1 anyways.
- John
The 100 year thing is from the Japanese intro to the game, but your right there's no way that's correct, it's supposed to be 200 years, which is why I think that part of the intro was changed in the US release. :)
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In Reply To #50
Dracula can only come backevery hundred years. But he can be summon in between those times.
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Ironically, the American instruction manual seems to get it right by saying that CV3 happens 215 years before CV1. Who would have thought? So if the Japanese intro is incorrect, then you can't use it as definitive proof that Trevor *has* to be the first.
re: Charlotte
The sad thing is that she's IGA's strongest female to date unless you count Yoko.
I dunno, I suppose he kinda redeems himself by not letting Sypha's legacy die out.
- John
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In Reply To #54
However, that means the American version is incorrect as it is mistranslated from the original story and thus invalid as well. So they're both invalid. :o
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In Reply To #43
yes. I did. If people just want to bitch, find something else to play. It's really that simple. Again, Iga knows what he's doing. And that's the bottom line.
Welcome to the Castlevania dungeon forum! Where people bash Castlevania more than they praise it!
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It's idiotic threads like these that don't make me want to come here anymore.
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It's idiotic threads like these that don't make me want to come here anymore.
QFT.
Really, what's so special about Sonia other than her gender? If Legends starred a guy named Filly McGee, would you still raise a stink about it?
The only thing Sonia did was what every other Belmont did. That, and her awkward love fling with Alucard, which seemingly was just a lame gimmick to justify KCEN's use of Al.
Other than the the tired 'iga is sexist and hates everything i like' whining, what justifies Legends to be returned?
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Shes also anime! I like her design, thogh I'm not much for half neaked women going into battle.
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Yep. It's an equivalent of a fan work. The american division of konami never had complete control over the series and never will, seeing as their best and only effort to create a cv game was that poor resurrection with its retarded character designs (speaking mainly of villains. Dracula looks gay, the vampire woman is totally retarded, sonia looks like a horse etc) that eventually got killed when they got in trouble with the japanese division. Shows just how much influence on the series they have. ::)
Ah. I see. You just rikey Niponese-u. Gotcha. I hope you know that you're basing one outcome (America having little influence over Castlevania) on something unrelated (Castlevania: Resurrection, a so-called failure that no one here has ever played) when, in reality, it is probably more likely due to IGA's involvement. We all know how he doesn't like people who aren't him screwing up continuity (more than he already has). And, again, that's not the point, anyway. The point is that CV64, LOD, and CotM are on some Konami-sanctioned timeline somewhere--and recently.
Welcome to the Castlevania dungeon forum! Where people bash Castlevania more than they praise it!
Thanks for paying no amount of attention to anything being said here, Rugal. Thanks for being clueless, as always. If you'd actually read the thread, you would have realized that it's not Castlevania that's being bashed, but rather IGA's failings that are being pointed out. Again. But, please, keep misunderstanding that most simple concept. Please continue, by all means.
In Reply To #47
HoD really is an under rated game. Of course Iga is not a "god". I have played the series since'86. I've played before Iga's involvement, and will play after. But what he's done for the series in my opinion is all good.
In my opinion, you have really low standards...because IGA is largely inconsistent in the quality of his work. SotN was godly, AoS was pretty good, and DoS was decent; Chronicles and DX Chronicles weren't even his to begin with, so they were classic-good; CoD, LoI, PoR, and HoD were, IMO, bordering on terrible. I'll be the first to admit that IGA's done SOME good things...but they haven't been ALL good, by any means.
It's idiotic threads like these that don't make me want to come here anymore.
...and yet you find yourself not only reading them, but also posting in them (as though anyone cares whether or not you find the thread idiotic). Good point.
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(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi130.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp269%2Fstigma_black%2FGRAPH.png&hash=5a66c6e6c78e894cd8b63be974eead0348230fa4)
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Someone's getting edgy! I'm not as clueless as you think, Mr. Vodka. Also, it's just a game.. a retconned game. It'll be okay. I promise.
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Ah.
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Someone's getting edgy!
The idiocy of others has that effect on me.
I'm not as clueless as you think, Mr. Vodka.
As you've proven. Oh, wait...
Also, it's just a game.. a retconned game.
I fail to see the continuity in this statement. You mentioned that Castlevania-bashing happens on the CV Dungeon message boards, and I responded to that. So, unless you mean that the whole series has been retconned...? I don't get your failed attempt at a rather pathetic insult. Also, we're on a little thing called a Castlevania message board on a little thing called the internet. As such, debates/arguments about Castlevania are, surprise, bound to happen. Don't like it? Wear a helmet and shut the fuck up.
Also, IGA = Castlevania.. Soo ::)
No, Castlevania = a video game series that existed before IGA. IGA is simply a producer, and an inconsistent one, at that. Truth. The Anti-Drug. Learn to read.
Speaking of retconned/cancelled games, how's Undying Legacy coming along, Rugal?
::) ::) ::) ::)
Gtfo back to your cave troll.
Go back to Fanime, weeaboo.
So, even though they're trying to pass lies as truth I should love them and believe them because they're americans?
Makes about as much sense as accepting IGA's timeline simply because he's Japanese...
And "lies as truth?" You act like this is something on the level of fabrications used to invade and conquer a foreign nation (lol, topical). This is a video game series we're talking about, here, and Konami of America is, OMG, STILL A PART OF KONAMI!!!! :O HOLY CRAP! I guess that means that Konami had something to do with the timeline, incidental or not!
And according to your words liking something made by japan is heresy,
O rly? Is that why I said that IGA's done some good things as well as some bad? Because I hate everything that comes out of Japan? Good point.
You have the reading comprehension of Rugal, which is likely braggable on these boards.
like you try to imply by using those retarded words. Even if it happens to be the original, without which the series would never exist.
Straw-man fallacy. I never made such an argument. All I ever IMPLIED was that you disbelieve the PoR timeline simply because it's American...making YOU the bigot, not me.
Bullshit. He would have removed bloodlines too in that case, since it screws the continuity even more than the n64 titles.
Bloodlines really doesn't screw with too much, because when it came out, there wasn't much to screw with. And all that the N64 titles really screwed with can, apparently, be found in one line (ZOMG travesty) of in-game text.
How about this, then: IGA doesn't like anything his rivals KCEK made, simply because he didn't make them. How's that?
He only didn't add those games to his timeline which later became official, yet you and others seem to think he commited a great sacrilege against you and the world.
Uh...no, we think that he committed a great sacrilege against CASTLEVANIA, a series of which those games were a part. I know it's surprising to see people discussing CASTLEVANIA on a CASTLEVANIA message board, but, hey, life is surprising sometimes. Wear a helmet.
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Criticism is healthy as long as its kept in perspective.
But yeah, I started this thread as a discussion about the direction IGA is taking with the series. Not to bash this or any other game.
Azmodan:
To answer your question...as TLB put it, it's not a bad game. It's not great either. It's reasonably good for a Castlevania game on Game Boy. I'd put it in the same class as Simon's Quest. Flawed, but far from horrible.
I also love it how some people who bash the Sonia fans are the same ones that turn around and gripe about IGA using anime artwork in the DS games instead of Kojima's art. I mean...Jesus. That should prove right there even they know he's not God.
- John
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In Reply To #65
Here, here. You speak the truth, sir.
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Guys I'd like to remind you all that World War II was over 60 years ago. Can we leave it at that?
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Rugal:
You know, it's kinda funny...but I swear to God I was playing CV as a kid. Before IGA was around at that. Hmmmmm.....
Serio:
I don't think Bloodlines screwed anything up. They even have a brief Trevor/Sypha moment in that game. But it's correct to say that throwing Legends out based on the fallacy of the 100 year cycle is stupid. Especially if he keep Bloodlines. IGA starting saying this as a reason for throwing out Legends after the "sexist" interview propagated and caused controversy. I think this was intentional backpedding on his part. He knows full well that Konami gets the lion's share of its CV sales from the US. Regardless, his logic is still fucked up.
VoDkA:
I've seen Serio bitch about anime. I doubt he's weeaboo. Chill. I on the other hand actually AM an anime fan, but that's not the major reason I want to keep Sonia. I like her chara design though.
- John
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The question I'm posing is WHY Legends needs to be canon. You like the character, fine. She looks good as a character. But other than that, why does it need to be canon? Does it help more than hurt if it replaced LoI?
And VodKa, how is retconning games whose stories provided little to the overall arch a sacrilege? It's not like IGA has personally singled you out or anything. He did say it was a mistake to release the timeline, so you're giving him quite a bit of heat for something he believes was a mistake in the first place.
And don't come back with comments like 'Yeah, well, you're an idiot..like that other guy, who's an idiot, too.' In costs nothing to be cordial once in a while...>_>
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As for American=non canon, I don't think that concept is true.
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Makes about as much sense as accepting IGA's timeline simply because he's Japanese...
And "lies as truth?"
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The question I'm posing is WHY Legends needs to be canon. You like the character, fine. She looks good as a character. But other than that, why does it need to be canon? Does it help more than hurt if it replaced LoI?
And VodKa, how is retconning games whose stories provided little to the overall arch a sacrilege? It's not like IGA has personally singled you out or anything. He did say it was a mistake to release the timeline, so you're giving him quite a bit of heat for something he believes was a mistake in the first place.
And don't come back with comments like 'Yeah, well, you're an idiot..like that other guy, who's an idiot, too.' In costs nothing to be cordial once in a while...>_>
I agree completely, Azmodan. The character design for Sonia looks good, but I woudln't think that alone should be the reason why she should be in the timeline. I mean it is like ppl asking a celebrity like Scarlett Johansan to be the star of a live action CV or a Doom movie just because she is hot and will scream sexism if she isn't in starred in those roles.
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Someone needs a hug, Vodka! YOU NEED HUGS!
The fact that you had to retaliate to my two and a half line post with your random provocative insults just proves the fact that you are one pathetic, sad, sad, SAD individual that seriously has a nail, or a fat vibrator stuck in his ass. That said, I will put on that helmet and shove it up your ass with my head still inside it. Weird no? That's it then.
Oh, and Undying Legacy is coming along nicely. I am working on one of the levels at this very moment, and the code is getting nice and developed, and the character codes are near completion.
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Since this thread has gotten so out of control, and everyone's panties are in a wad over Sonia, a retconned character from a retconned game, this thread has now been retconned.
*case closed*