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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 14, 2012, 08:51:05 AM

Title: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 14, 2012, 08:51:05 AM
I'll venture away from a thread that prizes eloquence.
Just give one word that you feel best sums up the current state of the franchise.
Here's mine:

Tired.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: crisis on January 14, 2012, 09:00:52 AM
rebooted
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Arma on January 14, 2012, 09:07:00 AM
Lost
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Foffy on January 14, 2012, 09:22:39 AM
Okay.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Super Waffle on January 14, 2012, 09:47:36 AM
Angela.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: A-Yty on January 14, 2012, 09:57:29 AM
Currythrowingskeleton.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Nagumo on January 14, 2012, 10:02:26 AM
Decline.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: DarkPrinceAlucard on January 14, 2012, 10:08:13 AM
downhill
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Ahasverus on January 14, 2012, 10:08:30 AM
Promising  :)
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: darkwzrd4 on January 14, 2012, 11:36:44 AM
LoS and its timeline: Potential

other timeline: unfinished
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: JR on January 14, 2012, 11:40:48 AM
Confused
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Successor The Cruel on January 14, 2012, 11:54:54 AM
Shitty.

There's a lot more I can say, but I think that generally sums it up pretty well.

Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: cecil-kain on January 14, 2012, 01:04:07 PM
Akumajo Dracula Series?

Dishonored.

And shamelessly so...
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Gunlord on January 14, 2012, 01:14:24 PM
Prunyuu.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Opium on January 14, 2012, 02:05:21 PM
Neglected.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: A-Yty on January 14, 2012, 02:18:27 PM
Neglected.

That's the word I was really looking for. Thanks.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Odile Kuronuma on January 14, 2012, 02:27:37 PM
Decay
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: GuyStarwind on January 14, 2012, 02:45:35 PM
Sadness.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Flame on January 14, 2012, 03:11:51 PM
Dracula
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Ahasverus on January 14, 2012, 03:26:08 PM
Shitty.
GTFO
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Neobelmont on January 14, 2012, 03:28:13 PM
Underachieved.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: C Belmont on January 14, 2012, 04:01:50 PM
undead
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Sumac on January 14, 2012, 05:29:54 PM
Refreshed.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: crisis on January 14, 2012, 05:33:37 PM
Castlevania 2-Belmont's Revenge Rock Castle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zziQR-ygmvw#)
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Successor The Cruel on January 14, 2012, 05:48:05 PM
GTFO

Hahaha. Did I hurt your feelings, junior? : )

Did I anger you?

EDIT:
Since I'm posting again, do I get to use another word? Okay.

Repulsive.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Gecko on January 14, 2012, 07:00:05 PM
Refreshing.

EDIT: Looks like me and Sumac feel the same. Maybe.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Claimh Solais on January 14, 2012, 07:00:32 PM
Hahaha. Did I hurt your feelings, junior? : )

Did I anger you?

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/131/399/fry.PNG?1307468855)
Not sure if trolling...

Dying.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: VladCT on January 14, 2012, 07:27:39 PM
Disappointing.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: julianbelmontxx1 on January 14, 2012, 07:58:59 PM
lost
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Pemburu Vampir on January 14, 2012, 09:20:17 PM
Confusing.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Inccubus on January 14, 2012, 09:28:03 PM
Neclord.

(By which I mean a sorry-ass, pale imitation of the original.)
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Kingshango on January 14, 2012, 09:28:55 PM
Suicidal.

Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Vrakanox on January 14, 2012, 09:43:16 PM
Lacking.

As in lacking Alucard  8)
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Flame on January 14, 2012, 10:11:24 PM
undead
I c wut u did there.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Esco on January 14, 2012, 11:57:03 PM
Trash
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Chernabogue on January 15, 2012, 01:26:22 AM
IGA timeline: Tired.

LoS series: Promising, if well done.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Dengo vlad tepes on January 15, 2012, 04:14:28 AM
the night is still young  ;)
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Dark Nemesis on January 15, 2012, 05:18:15 AM
unsatisfying!!!
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: TheouAegis on January 15, 2012, 06:31:58 AM
Necrotic
 ;D
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Nail_Bombed on January 15, 2012, 06:33:44 AM
Chaos.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: jimmay17 on January 15, 2012, 08:01:10 AM
Dead.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: crisis on January 15, 2012, 08:23:58 AM
I find it hilarious that out of all us fans that share the same general consensus about cv, there's only like 2 or 3 people that think it's "doing great."  :rollseyes:


Good job, Konami.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: shelverton. on January 15, 2012, 09:06:55 AM

has-been.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: The Silverlord on January 15, 2012, 09:34:56 AM
Foggy.

There's potential, but uncertainty at the same time.  Lords 2 could really (really) hit the spot, if Cox and MS can answer some criticisms . . . but what of the classic-style, and what for the future? Uncertainty, but potential.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: GummiCandyful on January 15, 2012, 12:22:15 PM
LOS timeline: promising.

Original timeline: dead.

The franchise overall: neglected (see lack of content for 25th anniversary).
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: beingthehero on January 15, 2012, 01:18:04 PM
justice-boner
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Flame on January 15, 2012, 03:37:14 PM
Foggy.

There's potential, but uncertainty at the same time.  Lords 2 could really (really) hit the spot, if Cox and MS can answer some criticisms . . . but what of the classic-style, and what for the future? Uncertainty, but potential.
I like this one. seems about right.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: darkwzrd4 on January 15, 2012, 03:51:00 PM
It seems that most of us have given up on the old timeline, but despite there feelings about LoS not feeling like a true CV, they seem to think that that timeline has some promising potential.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on January 15, 2012, 04:15:21 PM
The question then becomes whether they've given up on the old timeline because it seems like Konami will no longer make games on it/no longer cares about it or whether they actually dislike it now. I'd describe the old timeline as "doomed" given what I've seen out of Konami since OoE, but I certainly don't prefer the LoS timeline for instance. If LoS is the future, I don't see CV in the future really resembling the past CV at all, so I'd probably just stop caring about it
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Dremn on January 15, 2012, 11:55:48 PM
"Lost" is on the money.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on January 16, 2012, 12:46:44 AM
Inconsistent.

Though, given the state of how Konami has be treating the series lately(and putting other series at higher priority), I'd also say "Forgotten" and "Fallen".
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: shelverton. on January 16, 2012, 05:24:37 AM
I just want to know WHAT ELSE is in store for CV other than LoS2. I'm fine with them making these GoW-style Castlevanias, as long as there's something else too. If it's part of the old timeline or even a third one by someone new I don't really care.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Successor The Cruel on January 16, 2012, 05:57:52 AM
My feelings about the state of the series don't have much to do with timelines, more so to do with Konami putting out crappy games and crappy games that behave as though they have no business being called Castlevania.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on January 16, 2012, 07:32:56 AM
I just want to know WHAT ELSE is in store for CV other than LoS2. I'm fine with them making these GoW-style Castlevanias, as long as there's something else too. If it's part of the old timeline or even a third one by someone new I don't really care.
If Konami are streamlining their business logic, there is nothing else besides LoS for the time being. There's just no money, seemingly, in running two canon universes side-by-side. It would confuse newcomers and be a waste of money. That's not including the Pachi-slot thing, which I don't count as a CV title more than it is one of Konami's Pachi-slot ventures using popular Konami franchise(there are some others too) to sell it. I see LoS continuing on until it's wrapped up, then the CV franchise, if it's still relevant and doesn't suffer from ADHD-popularity(and in turn, doesn't gain as much momentum as Konami thought because the first was "lightning in a bottle", which would basically make Konami stomp the franchise FURTHER into the realm of obscurity), they'll hand it over to other producers. 
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Foffy on January 16, 2012, 01:45:20 PM
My feelings about the state of the series don't have much to do with timelines, more so to do with Konami putting out crappy games and crappy games that behave as though they have no business being called Castlevania.

I certainly hope there are more games it that type of category for you than Lords of Shadow, because if that's a 'crappy' game but the nightmarishly boring PS2 games were any better..
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Successor The Cruel on January 16, 2012, 01:50:45 PM
^ I recently had a discussion with a friend about that. Here's the difference to me between the PS2 games and Lords of Shadow.

The PS2 games are bad.

Lords of Shadow is insulting and violating to the series.

There is a big difference there. Besides, during the day of the PS2 games, we were certain we'd also be getting other types of Castlevania games. Dawn and Curse were pretty much released in conjunction, so there was nothing to make us believe that we'd only be getting boring arena brawlers for the foreseeable future.

If Konami are streamlining their business logic, there is nothing else besides LoS for the time being. There's just no money, seemingly, in running two canon universes side-by-side. It would confuse newcomers and be a waste of money. That's not including the Pachi-slot thing, which I don't count as a CV title more than it is one of Konami's Pachi-slot ventures using popular Konami franchise(there are some others too) to sell it. I see LoS continuing on until it's wrapped up, then the CV franchise, if it's still relevant and doesn't suffer from ADHD-popularity(and in turn, doesn't gain as much momentum as Konami thought because the first was "lightning in a bottle", which would basically make Konami stomp the franchise FURTHER into the realm of obscurity), they'll hand it over to other producers.

For whatever it's worth, Harmony of Despair was released like a month or month and a half or something before Lords of Shadow and then continued to get additional stages. I know that's likely not canon, and it's just a side downloadable game, but it's something. That said, I don't disagree with you, and it's the reason I'm somewhat militant (dramatic term) against Lords of Shadow. As long as that dark path is being walked, I think that it, for the time being, will indisputably be Castlevania with no worthwhile alternative outside the old games, and that is an incredibly depressing thought to me.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Rugal on January 16, 2012, 02:17:04 PM
Shit.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Flame on January 16, 2012, 02:26:38 PM
That's not including the Pachi-slot thing, which I don't count as a CV title more than it is one of Konami's Pachi-slot ventures using popular Konami franchise(there are some others too) to sell it. I see LoS continuing on until it's wrapped up,
In b4 LoS pachislot
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on January 16, 2012, 05:04:07 PM
Dawn and Curse were pretty much released in conjunction, so there was nothing to make us believe that we'd only be getting boring arena brawlers for the foreseeable future.
On a side note, despite the flaws present in both games, I did think it was clever of those two games giving little nods to each other. One of of the biggest, apparent nod was that both games used a part of Voyager for their clock tower themes, and both clock tower bosses, for the first time to my knowledge, were time-related/time-controlling bosses. It was kinda like IGA said, "Hmm, lets do this and see if anybody picks up on it!".
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Munchy on January 16, 2012, 10:25:00 PM
Kojima.

(I'd seriously love him to straight up make a Castlevania. That dream sequence in MGS3 gave me a raging action-horror boner.)
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Sumac on January 17, 2012, 10:33:20 AM
Quote
Lords of Shadow is insulting and violating to the series.
SOTN-clone #10 would be even much more insulting to the series, that was one of the few  that differed with each installment.
I prefer something fresh.




Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on January 17, 2012, 04:32:19 PM
I don't really think clones of what came before could be insulting to the series just by that fact. Would you say CV1 clone #10 would be insulting to the series? I wouldn't. And they've made more than 10 classicvanias.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Dark Nemesis on January 18, 2012, 03:41:42 AM
Super Castlevania IV was one remake, clone of the first Castlevania. Is it insulting the series and the first Castlevania?
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Ahasverus on January 19, 2012, 08:43:44 AM
Super Castlevania IV was one remake, clone of the first Castlevania. Is it insulting the series and the first Castlevania?
Clone? really?
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Flame on January 19, 2012, 09:51:23 AM
Because Simon definitely had 8 way whipping in CVI.

CV4 is practically it's own game. Its not even a remake. It's a re imagining of CV1.

Meanwhile... All we have gotten for the past few years, are "re imaginings" of SoTN.

I love my IGAvanias, but cant deny, every single game after SoTN was trying to emulate SoTN's success. Specifically the games the came right after, such as Harmony of Dissonance, for example.

Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: thernz on January 19, 2012, 12:49:01 PM
But in Portrait of Ruin, you can hop on your partner. That has never been seen before in Castlevania! Actually, Portrait of Ruin was the start of a lot of features: a more integrated partner character who you can swap control to, sub-weapon leveling, spell charging, and Metroidvania stages that aren't even connected to the main map. Portrait of Ruin is so much more original than any classicvania. Most of them didn't even have a quarter of the number of new features Portrait touted!
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Flame on January 19, 2012, 01:02:40 PM
But it was a failure on the grounds that it was trying to be a sequel to Bloodlines, and failed terribly in that respect, since Travelling all across Europe =/= going into paintings to travel to those places. Not to mention the characters were not too interesting. it was well meaning, but IGA sucks at sequels, and instead plopped all those innovative new ideas hes famous for, into a dud.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on January 19, 2012, 01:44:27 PM
Because Simon definitely had 8 way whipping in CVI.

That's not really a genre-shattering change. CV4 is still the same genre as CV1, just as HoD or AoS are the same genre as SotN despite having a whip-wielding character or a soul system. If one wants to call those clones of SotN, one must also acknowledge the classicvanias as clones of CV1 (and I'm not including CV2 here), or else we are simply holding different eras of games to different standards.

Meanwhile... All we have gotten for the past few years, are "re imaginings" of SoTN.

You're kinda forgetting Adventure Rebirth and the Rondo remake. And if you wanna count non-mainline games, Judgment and CVHD. But generally besides classicvanias and Castleroids there's not much else left as an option (that will sell) besides the route LoS went down. Even in the industry as a whole there's not really many possibilities left in the way of innovation, so most things will end up being clones of what has come before or mash ups of elements that have come before (unless the game opts to go for the new motion control craze). I don't know what kind of entirely new innovation you're asking for from the CV series, but I doubt it can deliver while still also resembling the old games and also selling well.

I love my IGAvanias, but cant deny, every single game after SoTN was trying to emulate SoTN's success. Specifically the games the came right after, such as Harmony of Dissonance, for example.

But did every game after CV1 try to emulate its success? I'm not sure I would put it that way because I don't even know if CV1 was a success financially or critically at the time it was released since I was far too young to care or look into such things, but the formula is certainly the same throughout all the classicvanias. Obviously that doesn't include CV2 though, as I'm not really counting that in the same genre as the classicvanias.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: crisis on January 19, 2012, 01:56:55 PM
Took the words right out of my mouth, Charlotte-nyom-nyoms:3
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Dark Nemesis on January 20, 2012, 05:35:30 AM
Clone? really?

In a interview, i remember stated that Super Castlevania IV was a remake/reimagining of the first Castlevania and Simon's adventure. 8 way whipping doesn't change the core of the game. Also since it's a remake, it doesn't have to be strictly to the same game controls or else it wouldn't be called a remake, but a copy paste!!!

  Like it or no, Super Castlevania did in it's own time, what LoS failed to do. It took the same game controls and added the 8 way whipping, incredibly graphics/effects and a outstanding soundtrack with almost CD quality. Super Castlevania IV is one of the best old school Castlevania games!!!


  If LoS has made what has been promissed, things would have been different..........
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: TheouAegis on January 20, 2012, 12:54:56 PM
There have been a lot more than one word in these last few posts...

Dark Nemesis' point is valid, though.

First we had CV1. Then CV2 tried to build on that by adding free-roaming and somem RPG elements. But the game was pretty bad, so they went back to what they knew worked: CV1. So they took CV1 and built on it by adding swappable characters, branching paths, and some new enemies, incorporating the countryside from CV2. Then they decided to build on that in various ways. Some added 8-directional whipping and whip spinning. Some added kicking. Some added spears. Each added more traps, more enemies. Each made use of newer systems' hardware. But in the end, each built off of CV1, the tried and true. Then we entered the 3D realm and Konami tried a different approach. Rather than building off of the original, they took it to 3D and it flopped. They tried again (if at first you don't succeed, try again rightly so). And that flopped. So then they went back to their roots, to the tried and true. They built off CV1. They decided to further build off CV2. They did away with stair climbing and made the Castle even more open-ended, but scrapped the countryside. It was a success. But Konami, it can be argued, forgot its roots and forgot what made it a success. Rather than continuing to build off of CV1, they decided to build off of SOTN, even though it could be argued that SOTN's success wasn't inherent in itself but a simple consequence of not being a 3D flop like its recent predecessors. So Konami built off SOTN but the series lost steam because they were building off the wrong thing. Then they decided, "If at first you don't succeed, try again on a better system." So they made the PS2 games. And kinda flopped. They went back to SOTN and remakes and such. Then XBox 360 came out and they tried again.

And arguably (long, page after page of posts arguably) it was a failure too.

People clamor for a good 3D Castlevania. Konami's given them 5 or 6 and people weren't satisfied. The fact of the matter is, as history has shown, CV1 is the foundation all Castlevania games need to be built off of. You can modify F(x)=Ax^4+Bx^3+C(Dx-E)^2-F all you want, but ultimately it's a function of x.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 20, 2012, 12:59:27 PM
You can modify F(x)=Ax^4+Bx^3+C(Dx-E)^2-F all you want, but ultimately it's a function of x.

Stealing this. THAAAAANK YOOOOOOU.  ;D
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Sumac on January 20, 2012, 02:58:05 PM
Quote
If one wants to call those clones of SotN, one must also acknowledge the classicvanias as clones of CV1 (and I'm not including CV2 here), or else we are simply holding different eras of games to different standards.
But did every game after CV1 try to emulate its success?
Each game was different from the other in gameplay and art direction. Much more different then SOTN and its brethren. And CV1 was supposedly succesful. Not even back then, company would create a sequel to a failure.

Quote
CV4 is still the same genre as CV1
By that margin every action game could be count as clone.

Quote
Rather than building off of the original, they took it to 3D and it flopped. They tried again (if at first you don't succeed, try again rightly so). And that flopped. So then they went back to their roots, to the tried and true. They built off CV1. They decided to further build off CV2. They did away with stair climbing and made the Castle even more open-ended, but scrapped the countryside. It was a success. But Konami, it can be argued, forgot its roots and forgot what made it a success. Rather than continuing to build off of CV1, they decided to build off of SOTN, even though it could be argued that SOTN's success wasn't inherent in itself but a simple consequence of not being a 3D flop like its recent predecessors.
I am not sure, if I understood you right, but there were no 3D Castlevania games before SOTN. The first CV3D was CV64 and it was released 2 years after Symphony. So your scheme is kind of off.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Successor The Cruel on January 20, 2012, 03:49:33 PM
Each game was different from the other in gameplay and art direction. Much more different then SOTN and its brethren.

No. Castlevania 3 looks very similar to Castlevania 1 and 2, and it's artwork is very comparable. The gameplay of the action games didn't change up anymore than the metroidvania games changed. I will also note that the only Metroidvania games that look extremely similar to each other are the three DS games. Circle of the Moon has a different visual style than Symphony of the Night. Harmony of Dissonance has a different visual style than Aria of Sorrow. Aria of Sorrow has a different visual style than Circle of the Moon. If you can't perceive this, you're blind. There are similarities between them, but 2D Castlevania games have always had visual similarities to other Castlevania games.

So, in short, it is as someone else said. You've got convenient double standards going on.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: beingthehero on January 20, 2012, 07:17:56 PM
Not to mention the fact that adding in the ability to select different levels isn't an astounding leap in terms of gameplay.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: TheouAegis on January 20, 2012, 09:02:42 PM
Ok whatever, the scheme is only SLIGHTLY off. Because the point was 3D flopped and they tried to fix it but never really pushed it. They finally said, "fuck it, if we're gonna make this 3D we can't stick with Castlevania, so let's make something else. .. And hire a bunch of Americans to do it in case it sucks."
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 21, 2012, 12:00:41 AM
I think you mean Spaniards, my dear Theou.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: TheouAegis on January 21, 2012, 04:06:56 AM
Like I said, a bunch of Americans.
:p

It's the spaghetti western of video games.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 21, 2012, 04:26:41 AM
Like I said, a bunch of Americans.
:p

It's the spaghetti western of video games.

Needs lasso DLC for that, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on January 21, 2012, 06:49:23 AM
No. Castlevania 3 looks very similar to Castlevania 1 and 2, and it's artwork is very comparable. The gameplay of the action games didn't change up anymore than the metroidvania games changed. I will also note that the only Metroidvania games that look extremely similar to each other are the three DS games. Circle of the Moon has a different visual style than Symphony of the Night. Harmony of Dissonance has a different visual style than Aria of Sorrow. Aria of Sorrow has a different visual style than Circle of the Moon. If you can't perceive this, you're blind. There are similarities between them, but 2D Castlevania games have always had visual similarities to other Castlevania games.

So, in short, it is as someone else said. You've got convenient double standards going on.

That's basically what I'd say to Sumac's response there. In addition, the "choose different paths" innovation in CV3 is vaguely on the same scale of a change, as far as altering the overall way the levels are organized, to something like PoR (where instead of one large interconnected castle, paintings in the smaller castle lead to many different smaller self-contained areas) or OoE (where there's an overall map screen as a hub where new self-contained areas are unlocked as you find different exits to previous self-contained areas).

By that margin every action game could be count as clone.

If you mean by that margin every 3D hack and slash third person semi-linear action game (more specificity needed) could be counted as a clone: Correct. But that rather broad margin is the similar to what you seem to be going by for the castleroid/metroidvanias.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Harrycombs on January 21, 2012, 07:59:24 AM
Its such a shame the franchise is falling apart. There was such potential and promise 5 years ago. For everything that Dawn did wrong, it was still a solid game, but everything after that has just been bumpy and inconsistent since then. Dracula X Chronicles is, in my opinion, the best game since Aria, which is just kind of sad. I honestly am not looking forward to the future Castlevania games right now after Judgement, Lords, and that silly downloadable game. The series' future just looks hopeless. I guess we can always just relive the classics.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Sumac on January 21, 2012, 09:01:05 AM
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Like I said, a bunch of Americans.
Yeah, because Spain in the America.
Everyday, you learn something new. Or not.  :rollseyes:

OK, now for the detailed explanations of what was different in Classic'Vania games.
(click to show/hide)

Now for SOTN's kin:
(click to show/hide)
I treat all this magical subsystems, partner systmes and other nonsense, as addons to the main gameplay style, which wasn't changed from SOTN all that much.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: farfan666 on January 21, 2012, 09:12:46 AM
Recycled
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Flame on January 21, 2012, 09:31:56 AM
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resulting in much more bright and clear picture
CV2 had darker pallets if I recall. CV1 had brighter colors and contrasts. (EG blue and orange)
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on January 21, 2012, 10:40:20 AM
Just to be clear, when I say classicvanias (and I believe I mentioned something like this before in the thread) I'm not including VK and CV2. I obviously acknowledge those as being radical departures from CV1's genre, to the point where people occasionally point to them for precursors to SotN's style rather than lumping them in with CV1 and its formula.

But I'm not really clear on the motivation for the list of what was different in CV3, HC, 4, Rondo, CVA2 and Bloodlines, since it actually sorta seems like you're acknowledging they've got little in the way of major changes to the CV1 formula. You also neglected to mention CVA1, CVChronicles, Legends, Dracula X, and Adventure Rebirth for some reason; I guess because they didn't have notable differences worth mentioning from what came before.

Also, for Bloodlines, I'm not really sure different locales rather than just castles are notable for it alone--CV3, 4, Dracula X, and Rondo all have outdoor areas or areas leading up to the castle which aren't castle interior, like caves, forests and other varied environments. I wouldn't say that's an innovation belonging to Bloodlines. More to CV2 and then most of the classics ran with it partially until you get to the castle. Bloodlines does take place all throughout Europe rather than in one location in Europe, but a forest in Greece and a forest in Wallachia doesn't really make much difference to the player. There are some iconic landmarks used as locations though, but I'm not really sure that's significant enough that I'd say it's an innovation.

Also, the 8 directional whipping innovation seems to be mostly a hitbox variation issue, of which most castleroids have in spades. Each new entry has a decent number of new weapon hitboxes (compared to SotN), especially in something like OoE with spells as regular weapons.

On the castleroid descriptions, it seems like your basic definition of their formula and justification for why they end up the same is that they're all "going around the map, acquiring new abilities to progress further." Let me try to critique this a bit. The problem is, with that type of loose description and justification, you do indeed end up acknowledging a great deal of video games as clones of each other and make it difficult for much innovation beyond major genre or structural changes to be satisfactory. Most Zeldas turn into "Find dungeon, solve puzzles, collect special items, use those items to progress and beat the dungeon boss, repeat." 2D Mario turns into "run through the stages platforming, stomp on enemies and defeat the boss at the end of the level." There simply aren't enough genres out there to allow us to complain about a series sticking with one, only adding a major change every once and awhile, and changing minor bits and pieces the rest of the time (like the RPG system changes which you don't acknowledge as mattering much).

Finally, things like the HoD spell book system or the OoE glyph system I agree are mostly only minor changes in ways of doing things the games to some extent did before, but I wouldn't exactly lump the partner system in PoR in with that. That's a more significant change to the way the player handles the gameplay, commanding the partner to use specials effectively and it also adds extra physical puzzle elements occasionally for how to interact with the partner to progress. For example, swapping to one to push a statue that'd be out of reach for the other so the other can jump up, commanding the other to stand in a particular location to use his/her shoulders as an extra platform, pushing on a train concurrently with both to slow it down enough or the go-kart segment where you swap between them concurrently to avoid obstacles to get them both to the other side. While I didn't really like the addition of the physical puzzle elements much, they were still there.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: thernz on January 21, 2012, 11:34:06 AM
(click to show/hide)

And CV1 has a clearer palette than CV2. CV2 is full of blacks, even on Simon, and odd color combinations. I mean I like it for that, but CV1 distinctly aims for complementary or different colors for Simon and the backgrounds to separate them.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: GummiCandyful on January 21, 2012, 02:47:19 PM
I think you mean Spaniards

Yeah, because Spain in the America.
Everyday, you learn something new. Or not.  :rollseyes:

I Second this. I'm Spaniard and I don't appreciate someone lumping my people together with Americans, whom are vastly different from us. Not that I have anything against Americans, because I was born in the U.S. It's almost the same as saying that all Asians are Chinese. But, anyway, back to my real point, not all American video game producers are terrible; it kinda goes back to the "Japanese are better at everything we do" thing, which is pure BS. No country is better than the other and each have their flaws.

Well, enough of that, I have a question for you all. How would you feel if Ninja Theory developed a Castlevania game? Yes, the same guys who are responsible for the infamous DmC reboot. I'm pretty sure the response isn't going to be positive for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: crisis on January 21, 2012, 02:57:50 PM
I would love to see Platinum Games develop a 3D Castlevania, and WayForward develop a 2D Castlevania.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Kingshango on January 21, 2012, 03:04:48 PM
I too think it would be cool to have Platinum games do a 3D Castlevania since they are now in cahoots with Konami and Wayforward has shown to be more than capable to do a 2D Castlevania game justice.


Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: crimsonmist on January 21, 2012, 05:30:34 PM
fallen.
as in "fallen from grace"
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: TheouAegis on January 21, 2012, 06:24:03 PM
Nobody ever reads full posts. The last line of my Americans post explains the correlation between Spaniards and America.

And if you're born in America, you're American, not Spanish. If your brother wasn't killed by a Jet, you're American.
SNAP!

The palette in CV2 is one of the biggest gripes about it (and the crappy clues and not knowing what to do and crappy bosses and horrible level design...). It was supposedly cited somewhere that Konami went back to CV1's palette style because there was so much backlash about CV2's. I don't know why they didn't change it in CV2 before releasing it. Maybe they wanted to try to be artistic. Or maybe they're color blind. At least Konami listens to its critics and tries to right its wrongs.

...Unlike SNK Playmore which keeps releasing shitty knock-offs of SNK's glory days....... God, who brought up that Judgement thread? Now i'm grumpy.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: GummiCandyful on January 22, 2012, 12:00:41 AM
You mean Spanish-American. The only "real" Americans are the Native Indian ones, IMO.

Back on  topic, I'm not really familiar with Wayforward and Platinum Games, but I'd be willing to give them a chance if they made a Castlevania game, as it is refreshing to see other people's take on the series.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Sumac on January 22, 2012, 03:43:07 AM
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CV2 had darker pallets if I recall.
I am sorry, it seems I meant something else. Not brightness, but general "aquarelness" of palette.
For me CV1 looks gritty and almost muddy. Sprites of background and enemies looked like they didn't had clear outline, as if somewhat coloured them with aquarel. The same goes for the backgrounds.
In CV2 there were brighter colours and almost everything had clearer outlines. Except for the latest mansions in the game.

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You also neglected to mention CVA1, CVChronicles, Legends, Dracula X, and Adventure Rebirth for some reason; I guess because they didn't have notable differences worth mentioning from what came before.
I didn't mention CVA and Legends because I forgot about them. And as far as I remember DX and CVC didn't had major innovations, when it came to gameplay.

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Also, for Bloodlines, I'm not really sure different locales rather than just castles are notable for it alone--CV3, 4, Dracula X, and Rondo all have outdoor areas or areas leading up to the castle which aren't castle interior, like caves, forests and other varied environments.
The fact that game didn't take place in the Castle and its surroundings already was pretty innovative, I'd say. Though I think it was not the first game that did it - it was CVA2 technically, but there action took place in a different castles, so it was kind of like CV2.

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Also, the 8 directional whipping innovation seems to be mostly a hitbox variation issue, of which most castleroids have in spades.
I think it was very major innovation comparing to the previous games. In the past you never had such freedom with your weapon. And we talking about overall innovations in the series, so I think this counts.

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The problem is, with that type of loose description and justification, you do indeed end up acknowledging a great deal of video games as clones of each other and make it difficult for much innovation beyond major genre or structural changes to be satisfactory.
Well, my problem with Castleroids in general is like this - they all for the most part, felt the same to me. No matter how much sugar-coating and new subsystems the game had, in the end I felt like I playing simple addon to the SOTN, not a separate game. Only two games came close to be considered as more or less separate entities - COTM and OOE, that actually did more than just having trying to retread SOTN for N-th time.
This is why I strictly oppose to the returning of this style into the series. At least for the time being. I am not sure, maybe its just only my personal feelings about the matter, but I think that's how some other people feel about "metroidvanias".
 
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Finally, things like the HoD spell book system or the OoE glyph system I agree are mostly only minor changes in ways of doing things the games to some extent did before, but I wouldn't exactly lump the partner system in PoR in with that.
The bad thing that dual partner system in POR was useless for the most time. It was only useful in the begining of the game, when developers thought of providing some puzzles to solve with this system. Later they mostly forgot about it and the game was comletely beatable with only one character, except for the few boss battles.
I think it could have been a major innovation, if it was done right. As it was executed it was more of a gimmick for the begining of the game. Like only 20% of what it could have been.

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Wayforward
They made Contra 4 and BloodRayne Bertrayal, which according to many people resembles CastleVania in more than just having vampires.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on January 22, 2012, 03:03:37 PM
Well, my problem with Castleroids in general is like this - they all for the most part, felt the same to me.

But--feelings must be controlled! =3

No matter how much sugar-coating and new subsystems the game had, in the end I felt like I playing simple addon to the SOTN, not a separate game. Only two games came close to be considered as more or less separate entities - COTM and OOE, that actually did more than just having trying to retread SOTN for N-th time.

Generally I just don't get that feel, which is probably why I'm not tired of them. I can perhaps try to expound on why but it's difficult for other people to understand why games feel a certain way to other people.

CotM: A whip as the only main weapon makes it a bit different than SotN, DSS system was actually somewhat different for its time compared to anything SotN did since its spells generally faded into the background and the traditional subweapons with their traditional hitboxes were the main form of attack besides the weapon. The castle layout definitely felt different, if worse due to all the obvious generic obstructions at random points in rooms dedicated just for them (the box rooms and the slide-required rooms). Enemy set was pretty different if unfortunately having a lot of palette swaps. Besides the central hub area, the areas felt more "blocky" in layout than SotN as well with their own dedicated spaces in the map. The graphical style was probably closer to SotN than either HoD or AoS, but not exactly a match.

HoD: Another whip game, and the weird atmosphere the graphics and the 8-bit music generated pretty much dominated this one for me, making it hard to get the same feel as SotN, despite the genre conventions in use. The Subweapons combining with the spell books to produce unique spells felt more like a take on CotM than anything out of SotN really. I suppose the subweapons should make it feel more like SotN but ended up giving me more of a classic feel (probably due to the worse graphics as well), so that sort of deflected that possible SotN feel being there for me. Also, the lower graphical capabilities of the GBA meant that they didn't reuse SotN enemies' sprites yet, so that also made it feel a lot less connected to SotN. The second castle and the 'collect Drac's parts' sidequest for the good ending were about the only things I recall off the top of my head that were reminiscent besides the formula-specific stuff like equipment and items to open new areas.

AoS: In gameplay this one feels  closer to SotN than CotM or HoD due to the return of nonwhip main weapons, but the graphical style, not as weird as HoD's but not as high quality as SotN's still doesn't remind me that much of SotN. The colors are still lighter and it generates a different atmosphere for me. The soul system feels more like a change up of the CotM-HoD spell system than anything in SotN. The plot tends to differentiate it given that it's in the future and after Dracula's demise (perhaps an equivalent 'change' to the oddness of Bloodlines taking place all over Europe, unless one really puts a lot of emphasis on the plot).

DoS: Now due to the return of the high quality graphical style, visuals feel more like SotN than any of the GBA games, but the snowy entranceway still seemed to set up a different first impression of the atmosphere that I can't shake and some of the areas are odd change-ups atmosphere-wise compared to SotN, like the garden area or the silenced ruins. The caves and clock tower have more of a SotN atmosphere. Actually I don't think any of the castles have given me the exact same atmosphere though, besides perhaps DoS and PoR. Soul system is rehashed so again that element and the returning Soma made it feel more like AoS. There's a bit of an unwanted innovation of souls powering new weapon creation but it isn't too huge a change.

PoR and OoE definitely started feeling even more alien (compared to the SotN formula) to me given the layouts being more linear. The PoR castle of course was reminiscent of SotN but it did not end up really being the main focus of the game, and there was a reduction in the "collecting items to open new areas" count due to the more linear, self contained, and totally "open" portraits taking up a lot more of the game than the castle. By "open" I mean that once you got into one you knew you likely had everything you'd need to go through most of the portrait world and reach the boss at the end rather than having to frequently backtrack to the castle or another portrait. This of course was a precursor to OoE doing away with a castle "hub" entirely and going to the world map system. Spells as weapons also felt a lot different because of all the weird hitboxes you could use as a "regular" weapon rather than some rare-use side attack. The combat requiring a lot of alternating Y and X often made it feel a bit different than the combat in the previous games. Like with PoR, the castle once you get to it is generally too small to provide a lot of "collect item, use it to progress through some past barrier" issues. It was still there occasionally but reduced and not really the focus it was in CotM-DoS.

So in the end, for me, it ends up being more like: There are games which feel like SotN in noncombat gameplay (CotM-DoS), games which feel like SotN in combat gameplay (AoS-PoR), or games which feel somewhat like SotN in graphical style (DoS-OoE). But far from having every game possessing the exact same elements there together, some of them have some aspects of SotN's gameplay or graphical style, and others offer a bit of a change up. The RPG system, however, is just so innate that I expect it to be there rather than wanting it to be changed up.

After typing that, it seems to me you focus more on the core mechanics of the games and that's generally why you get the same feel, the RPG (level, equipment) system, the "formula" of finding new items to access additional areas (although PoR and OoE didn't have as much of this given they have other methods of restricting your egress), whereas what I end up reminded of in each game is differing atmospheres, castle layouts or spell/attack mechanics.

I find that generally when I don't much like a genre a series is using at the time I end up wanting more innovation in the formula. For example, I'm generally lukewarm on Zelda after ALTTP and I'm always waiting for them to change up the dungeon-item-boss-collectable formula, but I notice the majority of Zelda players always clamor for the next Zelda and don't really care if that formula changes. You may feel similarly with the castleroid/metroidvania formula.

I am not sure, maybe its just only my personal feelings about the matter, but I think that's how some other people feel about "metroidvanias".

I've seen other people express similar views. Of course I've also seen other people begging for another metroidvania/castleroid as well or entirely expecting that one will come. I expect it'd probably still sell at least on the level of the DS CVs if they were to make another.

The bad thing that dual partner system in POR was useless for the most time. It was only useful in the begining of the game, when developers thought of providing some puzzles to solve with this system. Later they mostly forgot about it and the game was comletely beatable with only one character, except for the few boss battles.
I think it could have been a major innovation, if it was done right. As it was executed it was more of a gimmick for the begining of the game. Like only 20% of what it could have been.

These little puzzles are actually a bit more spread out than you may remember. For example, the train puzzle was in the final "13th street" portrait before you gain access to the series of final boss fights, the go-kart thing is around the half-way point and some of the simpler implementations are earlier in order to access some of the early portraits. Surely though, these puzzles didn't pervade the game or anything, but I think that was probably intentional so as not to interfere with what the player was likely mainly looking for, which was less of a puzzle platformer and more of a combat-platformer, with the puzzles as more of a side thing.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Sumac on January 23, 2012, 09:56:39 AM
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But--feelings must be controlled! =3
We talk not about emotions, but sensations.

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After typing that, it seems to me you focus more on the core mechanics of the games and that's generally why you get the same feel, the RPG (level, equipment) system, the "formula" of finding new items to access additional areas (although PoR and OoE didn't have as much of this given they have other methods of restricting your egress), whereas what I end up reminded of in each game is differing atmospheres, castle layouts or spell/attack mechanics.
Most likely.
Castlevania was always about gameplay for me, first and foremost, that's how I come to like the series. That and awesome music. Story and atmosphere usually were second, when it come to this series. However sometimes they played a big part in why I liked games, usually when they managed to stand out form the crowd (like CV64 and SCV4). Besides I couldn't completely concentrate on atmosphere, if gameplay dissatisfies me in some regards.

There are some exceptions, but not with Castlevania.
And as I said before COTM and OOE felt to me pretty different from the MV-crowd. Though I despise HOD almost as much as HD. And POR was a clusterfuck of good ideas executed horribly wrong, IMO.

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These little puzzles are actually a bit more spread out than you may remember.

Maybe I do forgot few. Actually after first set of portraits I was ready to finish the game, when SUDDENLY another set of portraits appeared. Given that it was IGA's game, I already knew that they would be copypasta-fest, so I try to complete them as fast as I could.

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Surely though, these puzzles didn't pervade the game or anything, but I think that was probably intentional so as not to interfere with what the player was likely mainly looking for, which was less of a puzzle platformer and more of a combat-platformer, with the puzzles as more of a side thing.
I personally felt that the game should have rely more on the Dual Partner System, since it was kind of the main new mechanic introduced in this game. When supposedly main mechanic is useless for the most of the game duration, it invoke some questions about neccesity of said mechanic in the first place.
After I read about this game I hoped to use two characters for the most of the time, but when it came to actual gameplay - for 90% of the game I used only one character. It was kind of letdown, since aside from DPS other innovations were minor and and if not the fact that I played as Charlotte, the game would fell to me like DOS copycat, but with even more uninpired design.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on January 23, 2012, 04:31:52 PM
I personally felt that the game should have rely more on the Dual Partner System, since it was kind of the main new mechanic introduced in this game. When supposedly main mechanic is useless for the most of the game duration, it invoke some questions about neccesity of said mechanic in the first place.

A lot of games seem to do this when they try to introduce some kind of innovation into an existing genre (typically using some new functionality in control), like Folklore with the Sixaxis mechanic in soul extraction, DoS with the stylus seals, or even Lords of Shadow with the Sixaxis ledge balancing (although that was a much smaller part of the game to be sure).

I'm not entirely sure how they could've required the partner system be more prevalent without repeating essentially the same puzzles many times (although that might be a failure of my own imagination). There are some enemies where one character's attacks are not that effective and you're better off switching characters to get optimal damage, but that doesn't require both characters to be out.

Perhaps they could've required a strike from both characters at nearly the same time to do damage or to finish off some enemies, required dual crushes in more places, required dual crushes to open specific side paths, and have more enemies like Death that grabbed one character and forced you to use the other to free him/her. Unfortunately a lot of these ideas to me seem more annoying than amusing as gameplay mechanics, sort of like any of the three above examples.

After I read about this game I hoped to use two characters for the most of the time, but when it came to actual gameplay - for 90% of the game I used only one character. It was kind of letdown, since aside from DPS other innovations were minor and and if not the fact that I played as Charlotte, the game would fell to me like DOS copycat, but with even more uninpired design.

I ended up using both (i.e. having both out) for probably 95% of the game, since it never seemed to hurt much (despite one's life bar being the magic bar), but it did help, especially with the special button to instantly use the other's special. I also ended up swapping between them and playing as both a couple times a portrait or so, so I suppose I got quite a different experience.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Flame on January 23, 2012, 05:41:41 PM
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and BloodRayne Bertrayal, which according to many people resembles CastleVania in more than just having vampires.
Mainly music and some of the aesthetics. Like some of the stage design resembles something you might see in castlevania.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Belmont Stakes on January 23, 2012, 06:26:24 PM
The word I choose is hyphenated and I am not sure if it is a real word.

The word is self-estranged........(ding)

Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Sumac on January 24, 2012, 11:04:46 AM
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A lot of games seem to do this when they try to introduce some kind of innovation into an existing genre.
I'm not entirely sure how they could've required the partner system be more prevalent without repeating essentially the same puzzles many times (although that might be a failure of my own imagination).
I am think that they could've created many varied ideas of how to use both characters in the game. They already had some good ideas, just seemingly didn't want to use them to 100%.

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and have more enemies like Death that grabbed one character and forced you to use the other to free him/her.
I think battle with Reaper was one of the best uses of the DPS in the game.

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I ended up using both (i.e. having both out) for probably 95% of the game, since it never seemed to hurt much (despite one's life bar being the magic bar), but it did help, especially with the special button to instantly use the other's special. I also ended up swapping between them and playing as both a couple times a portrait or so, so I suppose I got quite a different experience.
I try limit my usage of special moves during the game - it just takes too much time and usually not worth it, because of the low difficulty. Besides, it more fun to jump around and kill enemies "personally", rather than unleashing some BIG BOOM on them. Most of the time at least. Charlotte and Maria (in SOTN Saturn) were good for both things. And combinations to execute specials weren't that complicated.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: GummiCandyful on January 24, 2012, 12:00:17 PM
BloodRayne Bertrayal, which according to many people resembles CastleVania in more than just having vampires.

Oh, how could I forget; I remember seeing screenshots of that game, and it pretty much seemed very Castlevania-like to me. I really do wish Wayforward would make a 2D game now.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Malus793 on January 24, 2012, 12:13:33 PM
I can't describe the state of the franchise in one word.  Two words, I can do.

Identity crisis.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on January 24, 2012, 02:52:47 PM
I try limit my usage of special moves during the game - it just takes too much time and usually not worth it, because of the low difficulty. Besides, it more fun to jump around and kill enemies "personally", rather than unleashing some BIG BOOM on them. Most of the time at least. Charlotte and Maria (in SOTN Saturn) were good for both things. And combinations to execute specials weren't that complicated.

I'm talking about the minor specials that are pretty instantaneous like Charlotte's Raging Fire or Jonathan's subweapons that are a pretty quick cast rather than the lengthy dual crushes there. I didn't really end up using dual crushes that much besides on some bosses.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Successor The Cruel on January 24, 2012, 02:58:14 PM
From what I can tell, it's pretty universally believed (at least everywhere I look in the Castlevania fanbase) that the series is currently terrible. Perhaps even as bad as it's ever been. I think it would really be folly for Konami to continue the course that they are on. If they don't, they will survive solely on casuals who could not give a crap about Castlevania. These people buy a new game just because they buy new games, discuss them at Gamefaqs/Gamespot for about a month or less, and then once they're done with them, put them away forever or sell them and repeat the process. It's true that one guy's money is as good as the next, but it's saddening what it going on. As I've stressed before, they're generally not bringing in new fans with this stuff.

I'm really not convinced of Lords of Shadow's stellar sales because, from my personal experience, I'm seeing no evidence of them. I didn't have to go out of my way to know that San Andreas, Metroid Prime, Star Wars: Battlefront, Halo and Assasin's Creed were really big games. I've generally been around the gaming community enough to be able to tell what is a big deal and what is not, and Lords of Shadow ain't seeming like much of a big deal. When people talk about great 3D action games, it does not come up.

So, what I'm saying is...

No new fans + disillusioned and disheartened old fans = why should you continue this?

But, I dunno'. Maybe it's a game that sold a lot that nobody cares about... kinda' like a Nickelback CD or something.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Vrakanox on January 24, 2012, 03:29:48 PM
From what I can tell, it's pretty universally believed (at least everywhere I look in the Castlevania fanbase) that the series is currently terrible. Perhaps even as bad as it's ever been. I think it would really be folly for Konami to continue the course that they are on. If they don't, they will survive solely on casuals who could not give a crap about Castlevania. These people buy a new game just because they buy new games, discuss them at Gamefaqs/Gamespot for about a month or less, and then once they're done with them, put them away forever or sell them and repeat the process. It's true that one guy's money is as good as the next, but it's saddening what it going on. As I've stressed before, they're generally not bringing in new fans with this stuff.

I'm really not convinced of Lords of Shadow's stellar sales because, from my personal experience, I'm seeing no evidence of them. I didn't have to go out of my way to know that San Andreas, Metroid Prime, Star Wars: Battlefront, Halo and Assasin's Creed were really big games. I've generally been around the gaming community enough to be able to tell what is a big deal and what is not, and Lords of Shadow ain't seeming like much of a big deal. When people talk about great 3D action games, it does not come up.

So, what I'm saying is...

No new fans + disillusioned and disheartened old fans = why should you continue this?

But, I dunno'. Maybe it's a game that sold a lot that nobody cares about... kinda' like a Nickelback CD or something.

This is pretty much the exact same way I feel about it. God of War fans aren't going to leave GoW and come to Castlevania. LoS just makes the games it tries to be look better in comparison.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: AkuITA on January 24, 2012, 03:59:09 PM
Retrovania(s): dying
Reboot : not requied

This my first, and last post. Lurker for years, vintage player from Italy (yes..Italy)
^^o
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 24, 2012, 04:36:36 PM
@Successor the Red

I agree. If the game was selling as well as I've heard Cox and Lords fans keep insisting, I'd expect to see some evidence, some hype, to accompany a well selling game, as you usually don't have a well selling game that isn't hyped due to it's sales figures.

As it was under IGA, Castlevania isn't getting much press, and remains a rather "underground" series.

Which would be fine with me, truly, except Konami keeps spending money trying to make it mainstream, and spending that money in vain. For all of Lords' big budget, the only ads I've ever seen for it were online, and even those were entirely confined to backwater Youtube accounts. No magazine pages, no TV presence, no posters in game stores. Nothing. That's a good way to waste money. Konami and Mercurysteam funneled all that money into a bottomless drainpit.

If you're going to make Castlevania mainstream, you can't pull any punches. Konami needs to market the franchise as aggressively as they've marketed Metal Gear Solid, or how Infinity Ward pushed their Call of Duty franchise, or how Microsoft implanted their Halo series into the minds of every gamer since 2002. You have got to be aggressive with your advertising. If you have a good product, mercilessly beat it into the skulls of anyone who will stand still long enough to be a target.

They attached Hideo Kojima basically to hype Lords. And then they did nothing with that. They hired A-list actors to voice the characters. And they failed to advertise that as well. They produced the first 3D Castlevania that plays as well as it looks. And they did nothing to promote that.

Konami treats Castlevania like a special needs child that has enormous potential and whose parents want it to succeed more than anything, but are afraid to advocate for them due to fears that any failure would make things more calamitously horrible than things already are.

With an attitude like that, Castlevania is doomed to die the slow, poisoned death it has been suffering for years.

Konami needs to man up and get their Belmont determination on, or they'll be bleeding dollars, euros, and yen through a Castlevania-shaped wound for years to come.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: A-Yty on January 24, 2012, 05:39:02 PM
They attached Hideo Kojima basically to hype Lords. And then they did nothing with that. They hired A-list actors to voice the characters. And they failed to advertise that as well. They produced the first 3D Castlevania that plays as well as it looks. And they did nothing to promote that.

Well, it was made clear pretty fast that Kojima was involved (even though his direct involvement was almost nonexistent). Patrick Stewart and Robert Carlyle's distinct voices were heard since the early trailers. Stewart especially was mentioned all the time due to being kind of an iconic badass and nerd hero, undoubtedly because he's captain Picard. I think their fame did their job when it comes to advertising the game (and probably did help the sales). But even a big name producer and star voice actors can't help the fact that the game has flaws and the story  dialogue mostly creates an overwhelming urge to facepalm.

The game is what failed, not its marketing. But overall, I do agree that if Konami is aiming to make the series a casual gamer success, they're not doing their darndest to achieve that. I guess they're failing on both ends; making Castlevania compelling to the original fanbase and/or making it a mainstream big name  :-\
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: JR on January 24, 2012, 05:41:55 PM

Which would be fine with me, truly, except Konami keeps spending money trying to make it mainstream, and spending that money in vain. For all of Lords' big budget, the only ads I've ever seen for it were online, and even those were entirely confined to backwater Youtube accounts. No magazine pages, no TV presence, no posters in game stores. Nothing. That's a good way to waste money. Konami and Mercurysteam funneled all that money into a bottomless drainpit.

If you're going to make Castlevania mainstream, you can't pull any punches. Konami needs to market the franchise as aggressively as they've marketed Metal Gear Solid, or how Infinity Ward pushed their Call of Duty franchise, or how Microsoft implanted their Halo series into the minds of every gamer since 2002. You have got to be aggressive with your advertising. If you have a good product, mercilessly beat it into the skulls of anyone who will stand still long enough to be a target.

They attached Hideo Kojima basically to hype Lords. And then they did nothing with that. They hired A-list actors to voice the characters. And they failed to advertise that as well. They produced the first 3D Castlevania that plays as well as it looks. And they did nothing to promote that.

Konami treats Castlevania like a special needs child that has enormous potential and whose parents want it to succeed more than anything, but are afraid to advocate for them due to fears that any failure would make things more calamitously horrible than things already are.

With an attitude like that, Castlevania is doomed to die the slow, poisoned death it has been suffering for years.

Konami needs to man up and get their Belmont determination on, or they'll be bleeding dollars, euros, and yen through a Castlevania-shaped wound for years to come.

I didn't like the lack of promotion, either. I never even saw a 10-second TV ad, and that's the least they could've done from what they didn't do, IMO. Kind of baffling to see a game not get advertised, when the game itself looked like it had some time and money invested into it.

But Konami has seemed really cheap lately, with their HD collections (which seem incomplete), their avoidance of the 25th anniversary, and of course Harmony of Despair (whether it was enjoyable or not, it's easy to see it was made on the cheap). Would almost makes me wonder if they're struggling financially (but they aren't, according to what I've heard).
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: crisis on January 24, 2012, 05:52:20 PM
this is the best they could do in advertising

Castlevania Lords of Shadow commercial PS3 sony playstation3 JP jpn japanese japan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u6fsFnS6sM#ws)


LOL
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Flame on January 24, 2012, 08:53:14 PM
The issue with LoS is that while games like Metroid Prime were met with universal acclaim, LoS is divisive at it's worst. Some fans hate it because its not a Classicvania or IGA/Metroidvania, and just not what they know and love.

Others have absolutely no problem with it.

That means that it might have sold well, Since we all know just about every Castlevania fan bought it to see what this new Castlevania was like, but the reception is totally mixed. Love, Hate, and those who could go either way. There is very little gray area. This isnt like Metroid Other M, where despite what Fans may think about the story and narrative, most agreed that the gameplay was still pretty good. CV fans are divided over the Story AND Gameplay.

So since the reception is so mixed, (and only among the fans mind you, almost all the critics liked the game, but they dont count) It makes it a bit harder to immediately tell how well it sold.

It might have sold well simply on account that most Castlevania fans bought it because it was another Castlevania game, one hyped to be a massive big budget gig. (and the Trailers misleadingly teased at a Dracula "Die Belmont" quote, and just all around teased he would be the final boss.)
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 24, 2012, 09:13:40 PM
Jason Isaacs could have been SUCH a Dracula... Real missed opportunity there, Mercurysteam!
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Chernabogue on January 25, 2012, 12:06:46 AM
this is the best they could do in advertising

Castlevania Lords of Shadow commercial PS3 sony playstation3 JP jpn japanese japan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u6fsFnS6sM#ws)


LOL
The dude drinking his coffee at the end made my day. Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Green Stranger on January 25, 2012, 12:49:01 AM
Lackluster.


So much for the one word thread:/
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Dark Nemesis on January 25, 2012, 03:49:08 AM
Lackluster.


So much for the one word thread:/

What did you expect? This is Castlevania Dungeon Forum!!!! It was always like this and it will coninue to be like this :P
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Sumac on January 25, 2012, 11:02:42 AM
I like how some people think that, if game wasn't tailored to their taste, than its immediate failure with everyone.
Illogical and funny, but oh well...  :rollseyes:
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Las on January 25, 2012, 11:21:31 AM
Irregardless, the fact that the castlevania franchise is still around speaks volume with the video game industry. It is not only a great concept but many of the storylines are very well thought out and inovative. Games like the Castlevania's, Metal Gear's,Contra's, Gradius's, even the tmnt series were great. The fact of the matter is like great video game companies their thrive in the face of adversity when many things in the gaming world change around them. As popular as Call of duty is and some of those big name gunner games. It is questionable if they will have the same popularity twenty years from now. They are popular now but the nature of games like call of duty and some of those online games are you can never beat them. It is competitive play usually, however it also keeps people from socially getting together. People become withdrawn from society and introverted around one or two(never ending online games). The great things about Castlevania's, Zelda's, Mario's and the like is that you play them to have fun, find the secrets, solze the puzzles and complete the game if you are good enough at it. Not to drain your life away online. Kudos to the Castlevania and Metal Gear games. They hold true to what games should be. Great storylines, great playable charcters, great fun! Exactly what gaming was always about. Not to say things in the gaming world don't change. People must adapt to change. It's understandable. But the big picture is how much? Games are meant to have fun with not run your life like i see so many people doing with some of these online never ending games. I will always stand by the companies that made gaming real too me. THe konami's, the nintendo's, the acclaim's, You people know what i'm talking about! Right? Enough said. there is a BIG reason these guys are still doing well. Kudos to  Konami!
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: meanguyjones on January 25, 2012, 11:27:43 AM
From what I can tell, it's pretty universally believed (at least everywhere I look in the Castlevania fanbase) that the series is currently terrible. Perhaps even as bad as it's ever been. I think it would really be folly for Konami to continue the course that they are on. If they don't, they will survive solely on casuals who could not give a crap about Castlevania. These people buy a new game just because they buy new games, discuss them at Gamefaqs/Gamespot for about a month or less, and then once they're done with them, put them away forever or sell them and repeat the process. It's true that one guy's money is as good as the next, but it's saddening what it going on. As I've stressed before, they're generally not bringing in new fans with this stuff.

I'm really not convinced of Lords of Shadow's stellar sales because, from my personal experience, I'm seeing no evidence of them. I didn't have to go out of my way to know that San Andreas, Metroid Prime, Star Wars: Battlefront, Halo and Assasin's Creed were really big games. I've generally been around the gaming community enough to be able to tell what is a big deal and what is not, and Lords of Shadow ain't seeming like much of a big deal. When people talk about great 3D action games, it does not come up.

So, what I'm saying is...

No new fans + disillusioned and disheartened old fans = why should you continue this?

But, I dunno'. Maybe it's a game that sold a lot that nobody cares about... kinda' like a Nickelback CD or something.

You're not convinced of its sales because it doesn't match up after a year in discussion to

1) Metroid Prime, which was not only the first 3D Metroid, but also a first person Metroid
2) Assassins Creed, where as soon as a new game is released another sequel is immediately announced. There is always something new with this franchise to keep the fans talking.
3) San Andreas, which was a sequel to one of the most successful and controversial games in history
4) Halo, which Microsoft threw so much money and advertisement behind to start with its unreal

Theres no discussion right now because there is nothing to discuss other than how people like it or hate it. Theres not much more you can talk about the game. Everyone knows Zobeks a dick and Gabriels mad, its been done to death. If people blow off the sequel and not bother with it, then you'll have a point, or not really. The game still sold exceptionally well for a Castlevania game.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: crisis on January 25, 2012, 11:35:02 AM
Castlevania has identity crisis like my name get it lol am so witty  8)


New word to describe current state: butt
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 25, 2012, 11:49:57 AM
The game still sold exceptionally well for a Castlevania game.

You keep saying that, but you never submit proof to back up your claims.

Where's the PR announcements? The sales stats? A Konami exec going "Well shit, this game sold pretty damn well for a Castlevania!"?

Where's the DISCUSSION when not on a site like this?

All of those are lacking. I don't doubt that Lords sold moderately well; they thought it was worth investing in two DLC packs for it, after all. But DLC is cheap to make and cheap to sell. That's no actual proof the game did as well as you're implying.

And a simple search on Twitter (usually a good gauge of public opinion) is loaded with copypasta Amazon ads pushing the game at a $17.95 price point, and people who say they got fed up and quit with it.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Neobelmont on January 25, 2012, 11:54:54 AM
[/spoiler]
When it comes to Japan it is always one week and that is it hell even Zelda skyward sword is not selling that much over there the only game series I have found to do well in Japan are Final Fantasy,Dragon Warrior,Mario, and hell even to a point Devil May Cry (which is funny I do not see how the hell Devil may cry is more popular than castlevania it's like DMC is like Castlevania's hyperactive off spring that every one just loves while CV is just that once well respected adult that just got put into a retirement home to be put into a corner playing bingo and tapioca pudding), and to a point the tales of series, Xilla did really and I mean really well. At least from my understanding Lords has reached over 1million copies now I believe the ps3 sold 0.64m and 360 0.37m which is better than it's competition vanquish and enslaved. Vanquish did well in japan,but due to Japan's sale's tendency to drop like a ton of bricks it just crashed in the end sort of.
Enslaved on the other hand just crashed and burned all the way to the deepest part of hell.

Here are the sales from top best to worst bottom.

PS3

http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35059/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35059/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/)

http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/42969/vanquish/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/42969/vanquish/)

http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/44878/enslaved-odyssey-to-the-west/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/44878/enslaved-odyssey-to-the-west/)

360

http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/44879/enslaved-odyssey-to-the-west/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/44879/enslaved-odyssey-to-the-west/)

http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35060/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35060/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/)

http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/42970/vanquish/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/42970/vanquish/)

Now let's take Los success into some kind of consideration it did well it has reached the one 1 million mark, heck it did better than Other M 0.93M  http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35086/metroid-other-m/ (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35086/metroid-other-m/)

Los combined 0.64M + 0.37M = 1.01M and remember Los did not have commercials of any sort it for the most part except in Japan compared to others from my understanding.



Enslaved: Odyssey To The West TV Spot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT03OH2d-vQ#ws)



Vanquish - Spot TV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_dlj5MYI5M#ws)



Vanquish - Launch Trailer (made by Maverick) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKbsulgMWv4#ws)



Metroid Other M Live Action Commercial [HD] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlmMDbXxLw4#ws)


[Minna no NC] Metroid: Other M - Commercial 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIiYslRItYM#ws)


Vanquish 1st commercial sony ps3 xbox x360 xbox360 JP jpn japanese japan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzkA7RNNNwI#ws)


Castlevania Lords of Shadow commercial PS3 sony playstation3 JP jpn japanese japan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u6fsFnS6sM#ws)



 Look at this 


Castlevania-Lords of Shadow- SPECIAL STAGE(2010年9月19日) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUR256E2TFE#ws)


Some kind of attempt has been made, but one way I think for castlevania to gain the heart of japan again is to beat other action games to me it has to be dmc.

It was odd advertising but something was done but for a fact it would have done better if there were universal commercials but it did well compared to others.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 25, 2012, 11:59:01 AM
Thank you. I stand corrected, and rather pleased to be so corrected in this case.
If nothing else, it proves there might be something left in the Castlevania name yet.

Too bad there's no way to reliably track who actually kept their copies. That would be an ultimate judge.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: meanguyjones on January 25, 2012, 12:03:48 PM
Thank you. I stand corrected, and rather pleased to be so corrected in this case.
If nothing else, it proves there might be something left in the Castlevania name yet.

Too bad there's no way to reliably track who actually kept their copies. That would be an ultimate judge.

Since someone took care of the sales thing for me, I checked twitter, went back quite a bit and all I see are a bunch of people either praising it, announcing achievements or that they're playing it, and of course the advertisements.

Are you really shocked that a game thats over a year old is now on clearance and stores are advertising it?? Not every company is Nintendo, keeping their games at 50 for eternity.

Laughed at the ultimate judge part. Come on man. Its almost like you have an agenda or something.  ;)
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 25, 2012, 12:12:31 PM
I was amused to see the clearance prices apply to the Limited Edition as well. Under $30 for that. Seeing as I ditched my old copy, I may as well pick that up, if only for the pretty cover art.  ;D

Also, the fact that Lords did better than Other M brings warm fuzzy feelings to my heart.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on January 25, 2012, 03:45:56 PM
Those numbers are VGChartz numbers though, which many have decried as not credible, supposedly because of incidents where they've posted sales data for games that were delayed right before release. I'm not saying they're not accurate in this case, but I wouldn't trust them too much given what I hear about them. It's kinda sad though that there's almost no other source in the way of publicly available game sales numbers that actually follow specific games (instead of just "what games are in the top 10 in sales this week").
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Hiryu on January 25, 2012, 08:35:08 PM
Milked.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: The Silverlord on January 26, 2012, 02:03:48 AM
Are you really shocked that a game thats over a year old is now on clearance and stores are advertising it?? Not every company is Nintendo, keeping their games at 50 for eternity.

Agreed.  Can only speak for the UK, but every decent, well-produced console game (e.g. Dead Space, Darksiders, Assassin's Creed, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Enslaved, Lords of Shadow) are all set with high pre-order prices which are slashed within weeks (not even months, let alone years) after release.  It appears to be the trend for modern console games.  And marketing must be a nightmare in this day and age, with the choice available for gamers.  That cannot be easy for Konami.  Lords has done just fine I think when you compare it to those other "mainstream" games.

And I thought neogaf and rllmuk were generally very, very positive of the game.  Fantastic environments, the combat was challenging, some even said innovative (light/dark guage usage).  The criticisms were still there, but it wasn't quite as overcast as some like to paint it.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: JR on January 26, 2012, 02:40:13 AM
I was actually pretty surprised that it stayed at full price as long as it did, especially compared to Enslaved. But then again, everyone knows how Enslaved fared...
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Flame on January 26, 2012, 07:43:54 AM
Quote
And I thought neogaf and rllmuk were generally very, very positive of the game.  Fantastic environments, the combat was challenging, some even said innovative (light/dark guage usage).  The criticisms were still there, but it wasn't quite as overcast as some like to paint it.

The full list from wikipedia:

Quote
Aggregate scores
Aggregator   Score
GameRankings   83.05 (PS3)[71]
81.94 (X360)[72]
Metacritic   85% (PS3)[73]
83% (X360)[74]
Review scores
Publication   Score
1UP.com   B[75]
Computer and Video Games   9.2/10[76]
Edge   8/10[77]
Eurogamer   8/10[61]
G4   4/5[78][79]
Game Informer   9/10[80]
GameSpot   7.5/10[81]
GameSpy   4/5 [82]
GamesRadar   9/10[83]
GameTrailers   7.9/10[84]
IGN   7.5[85][86]
Official PlayStation Magazine (UK)   9/10[87]
Official Xbox Magazine   9/10[88]
PSM3   94%[89]
VideoGamer.com   9/10[60]
Awards
Entity   Award
GamesMaster   Gold Award[90]
Xbox World 360   Star Player Accolade[90]
Film Music Critics Association   Best Original Score for a Videogame
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Ahasverus on January 26, 2012, 08:40:45 AM
Calling LoS a failure is foolish.. even Konami's boss gave thanks to fans after the million milestone was reached after two weeks! (Shipped yes but that's all that matters to Konami) And in the fiscal year results.. Konami praised the game for its revenue streaming.. it was fine.. especially for Konami with so few stong million seller franchises

*excuse me for "..." this.. my comma key is dead :P
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: GummiCandyful on January 26, 2012, 09:58:52 AM
LOL, at GameSpot, GameTrailers, and IGN scores. And people wonder why no one takes them seriously. They have no credibility whatsoever because according to their logic, if you're not a Call of Duty game or FPS, that instantly warrants you a bad review and title of so-called "bad game".

Seriously, this reminds me of the review score GameInformer (whom I might add are starting to become like the former three sites) gave to Sonic Generations.

Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Ahasverus on January 26, 2012, 10:15:12 AM
I still remember the IGn review:
-"There is no castle"
-"There is no Dracula"
-"There is no old music"
- "Levels are in plain daylight"
-"It butches everything that CV has always been it doesn't have exploration and backtracking like SOTN"

lol
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Neobelmont on January 26, 2012, 10:36:22 AM
LOL, at GameSpot, GameTrailers, and IGN scores. And people wonder why no one takes them seriously. They have no credibility whatsoever because according to their logic, if you're not a Call of Duty game or FPS, that instantly warrants you a bad review and title of so-called "bad game".

Seriously, this reminds me of the review score GameInformer (whom I might add are starting to become like the former three sites) gave to Sonic Generations.

Gamespot is though sometimes just out there, gametrailers just has alot of money got bored of them, but I would say that IGN is the worst I remember hatfield just gave a bullshit review on lords that could be sumed up like this ahem drum roll please

This game is not a metroidvania nor does it have to do with anything with cv bam(subjective) 7.5. Not only that he said something along the lines like it's short but has tons of replay which made me go wtf not only that nothing good was really  said about it I got nothing about the review A lot of people called bs on him and Iam not crazy when I know that the review that was written was edited so much bullspit, and they gave God of war ghost of sparda a 9.0 with one line saying if it is not broken do not fix it Gow does not need to improve so 9.0 for everyone. Sometimes there are goodreviews and shocking ones like bloodrayne getting a 9.0 but otherwise if it is a "mainstream" title bam 9.0-10.0 period so boring lesser games get almost nothing while big games get all praise. Oh and destructroid sucks major as well. Jim sterling is a troll I know of being a though reviewer but that gut is a purple dildo holding jackass saw some of his reviews and some just get unreasonably low scores like damn and I think somepeople believe him which is sad. Then again reviews are an odd bag if you do not base your choices of them I do not really follow them for I choose for my self if not I would be playing not but the "popular" games if I followed reviews.


I still remember the IGn review:
-"There is no castle"
-"There is no Dracula"
-"There is no old music"
- "Levels are in plain daylight"
-"It butches everything that CV has always been it doesn't have exploration and backtracking like SOTN"

lol

"- Not Castlevania" this was part of the final say the final part was just so wow it was just a bs review and he got called out on it anyone with a brain could see the no smell the bullspit from a mile away.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Vampire Killer on January 26, 2012, 10:52:33 AM
I still remember the IGn review:
-"There is no castle"
-"There is no Dracula"
-"There is no old music"
- "Levels are in plain daylight"
-"It butches everything that CV has always been it doesn't have exploration and backtracking like SOTN"

lol

LOL, I know right. It seems like LoS reviews came mostly in two flavors. People who's first Cv was SotN or later who mostly had the opinions stated above, and really old-school players of whom mostly "got it" and though it was great.

*puts on flame-retardant suit*
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Flame on January 26, 2012, 11:09:27 AM
Wow- those ARE BS...

Quote
"There is no castle"
There certainly is. Apparently he didnt play past too far.

Quote
-"There is no Dracula"
Certainly is. You may not like the way he comes about, but he's still "there"

Quote
-"There is no old music"
At least 2 old tunes.

Quote
- "Levels are in plain daylight"
Only some of them. It actually followed a more or less day and night system. as you progressed, the stages became nighttime stages. This is MOST apparent in Wygol, with the Abbey.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: GummiCandyful on January 27, 2012, 03:16:29 PM
Gamespot is though sometimes just out there, gametrailers just has alot of money got bored of them, but I would say that IGN is the worst I remember hatfield just gave a bullshit review on lords that could be sumed up like this ahem drum roll please

This game is not a metroidvania nor does it have to do with anything with cv bam(subjective) 7.5. Not only that he said something along the lines like it's short but has tons of replay which made me go wtf not only that nothing good was really  said about it I got nothing about the review A lot of people called bs on him and Iam not crazy when I know that the review that was written was edited so much bullspit, and they gave God of war ghost of sparda a 9.0 with one line saying if it is not broken do not fix it Gow does not need to improve so 9.0 for everyone. Sometimes there are goodreviews and shocking ones like bloodrayne getting a 9.0 but otherwise if it is a "mainstream" title bam 9.0-10.0 period so boring lesser games get almost nothing while big games get all praise. Oh and destructroid sucks major as well. Jim sterling is a troll I know of being a though reviewer but that gut is a purple dildo holding jackass saw some of his reviews and some just get unreasonably low scores like damn and I think somepeople believe him which is sad. Then again reviews are an odd bag if you do not base your choices of them I do not really follow them for I choose for my self if not I would be playing not but the "popular" games if I followed reviews.


"- Not Castlevania" this was part of the final say the final part was just so wow it was just a bs review and he got called out on it anyone with a brain could see the no smell the bullspit from a mile away.


Exactly. It seems those three sites I have mentioned only favor mainstream titles (Call of Duty, God of War, ect), and anything else is considered a crappy game. But IGN's review certainly takes the cake on blatant ignorance, and the fact that they compare a RE-IMAGING of the series to the Metroidvanias is even more ridiculous. Have they not kept up with the game when it was first announced and were seriously expecting it to be done in the vein of SoTN/produced by IGA? Wow, those guys are REALLY stupid, I swear.

Funny how you mention Destructoid; I never really considered them a game review site, but you are certainly right when it comes to that Jim Sterling guy. I actually remember when Sonic The Hedgehog 4 was first announced and he decided to take a stab at the fanbase. Okay, I know that the Sonic fans are reputed for being dissatisfied with every game SEGA has made since Sonic Heroes, IIRC, but to me, that was pretty uncalled for. Not to mention, he's a big 360 fanboy who hates Sony for no reason. Another gamer site I absolutely loathe is GamesRadar, which would take pages to describe why they suck so much.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on January 27, 2012, 04:14:31 PM
It seems those three sites I have mentioned only favor mainstream titles (Call of Duty, God of War, ect), and anything else is considered a crappy game.

Many of the castleroids/metroidvanias (the DS ones mostly) are actually ranked pretty highly on those sites and those are far from mainstream titles. If anything I'd say a decent amount of reviewers are sort of enamored with the castleroid formula (judging from the scores I generally see for them) and were thus less enthused with LoS' genre choice and were unwilling to give it a stellar score based on that. But that's probably thinking too much about it as well. Might be a bit too conspiratorial.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 27, 2012, 04:23:10 PM
I think it's reviewer bias, really. They knew what they personally wanted, and they didn't get it. That creeps into even the best reviews, and sours the score.

They wanted a Castleroid. They didn't get one. Ragereview.

Of course, people will still argue whether or not they even got a Castlevania game, period.

I personally liked X-Play's review. (http://www.g4tv.com/games/ps3/62174/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/review/) I thought it's one of the fairest conclusions I've seen.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: GummiCandyful on January 27, 2012, 06:50:48 PM
Many of the castleroids/metroidvanias (the DS ones mostly) are actually ranked pretty highly on those sites and those are far from mainstream titles. If anything I'd say a decent amount of reviewers are sort of enamored with the castleroid formula (judging from the scores I generally see for them) and were thus less enthused with LoS' genre choice and were unwilling to give it a stellar score based on that. But that's probably thinking too much about it as well. Might be a bit too conspiratorial.

I can understand a reviewer not being happy with the game's choices, because everyone seems to have a different view on how Castlevania should be, but like Lumi Rockets pointed, it was simply review bias. IGN's breakdown pretty much sums it up:

-"There is no castle"
-"There is no Dracula"
-"There is no old music"
- "Levels are in plain daylight"
-"It butches everything that CV has always been it doesn't have exploration and backtracking like SOTN"

In short, the game was given a low score for not meeting these expectations. I always thought game reviews were supposed to be free of personal biases and more about how good the game played, ect, but I guess I was wrong.

I personally liked X-Play's review. (http://www.g4tv.com/games/ps3/62174/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/review/) I thought it's one of the fairest conclusions I've seen.

These guys were pretty much fair in their review. My only complaint is how they griped about the areas being "too bright", which brings their knowledge of Castlevania into question, IMO.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on January 27, 2012, 08:17:48 PM
Well yeah that particular one from IGN is much more a definite show of bias. I was just not aiming to say it was bias across the board with the reviews, as that'd be a bit "too conspiratorial" as I mentioned.

About the best I can do at figuring out why that reviewer said those things even though some are blatantly wrong is that:

With the castle thing, it's possible he meant in a more traditional way, where you go into Dracula's castle and didn't spell out that peculiarity, not just any ol' castle. Or he didn't play through even half of the whole game.

With the Drac thing, it's possible he meant in the more traditional sense of "the final boss will be Dracula and you will fight him!" Or he didn't watch the very last scene.
(click to show/hide)

With the music thing, it's possible he didn't recognize the couple of old songs due to the heavily different style and the fact that one is pretty obscure (Waterfalls). Or, with Vampire Killer, he meant the way they typically do it, which is a remix but still sorta close to the feel of the original rather than as a music box tune.

With the levels in plain daylight thing, he was probably going off general feel. It certainly isn't true that all levels are in daylight--although he didn't specifically complain that they -all- were from that quote--but since some are, it probably created a "bad" first impression for him (I recall that most of the daylight levels are early and more of the night levels are later) and he made a complaint based on the feel rather than a hard, numerical and logical counting of daylight levels vs night levels.

Did IGN end up pulling or rewriting that review btw? It seems like it, since I can't find one that meets those criteria but I remember Cox saying the review was totally off factually.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: JR on January 28, 2012, 02:36:03 AM
In short, the game was given a low score for not meeting these expectations.

But they gave it a 7.5, didn't they?? That's not too bad of a score.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Neobelmont on January 28, 2012, 06:11:23 PM
I think it's reviewer bias, really. They knew what they personally wanted, and they didn't get it. That creeps into even the best reviews, and sours the score.

They wanted a Castleroid. They didn't get one. Ragereview.

Of course, people will still argue whether or not they even got a Castlevania game, period.

I personally liked X-Play's review. (http://www.g4tv.com/games/ps3/62174/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/review/) I thought it's one of the fairest conclusions I've seen.

But they gave it a 7.5, didn't they?? That's not too bad of a score.

It's a haters onesided review he does not like it all in all it was a douche review not much detail or anything just bs for the most part.

Castlevania: Lords of Shadow Video Review (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg3S4kZ2T3Y#ws)

Yeah and I have seen the x-play one and again I do not use reviews as an ulitimate say for my choice but rather to at least get an idea of what I want and sometimes get a good laugh like classic game room:

Classic Game Room - CASTLEVANIA: LORDS OF SHADOW review (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHHTnMEHdvM#ws)
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Omegasigma on January 29, 2012, 03:43:57 AM
reincarnated : LoS (not that I cared for the game)
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: thernz on January 29, 2012, 11:01:49 AM
how is the ign review that much of a hateview? he praises the game half the time, and even when he points out flaws, they're either minor slights or he says action gamer people would like them anyway. the only times he doesn't is when talking about the story or acting. he still says it's a good game despite not being castlevania, so that isn't really quite a problem.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Sindra on January 29, 2012, 01:07:28 PM
Knew that "One Word" thing wouldn't stick.



Conflicted.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Neobelmont on January 29, 2012, 08:17:34 PM
how is the ign review that much of a hateview? he praises the game half the time, and even when he points out flaws, they're either minor slights or he says action gamer people would like them anyway. the only times he doesn't is when talking about the story or acting. he still says it's a good game despite not being castlevania, so that isn't really quite a problem.

There are a whole lot of reason as to why it is viewed down like lack of proper explanation like the story really it's just adventure time with gabriel and zobek too stop the los that's all nothing else what about the god mask , bullspit saying about certain things like how cv goes away from the normal by being linear and having level by level progression now come on that is a heap of bullcrap. Dull combat he does not even go through the combat yes he says light/dark yet that is it no detail. And the one major complaint that I think alot people got mad about and that is this obnoxious god of war "stigma" god of war this and that. Damn it is called hack n' slash or better yet an action game is it really that hard to call it an action game the genre crap like that.
You say he praises the game but for every praise I think alot felt that those downsides was seen as a haters view or even an obnoxious view. Overall it was not what he wanted he is a metroidvania fan and I think it really shows lack of items really it is things like that it was to be different from the start to be closer to the classics but most of all it's the fact that he says that this game had nothing at all to do with cv at all period which alot of people got mad about as well and that he wanted a more traditional game yeah he says it's a good change of pace but with everything that was said and done people were just mad heck I do not know how linear and level progression is not cv but I guess it is not  :rollseyes:  . I got alot more info from someone who does not even play alot of cv games that this "fan". Yes he says GoW as well but I just got more info from somebody who's not even a fan:


Castlevania: Lords of Shadow Review (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTov342NYls#ws)


Overall there are alot of reasons as to why it's hated upon take it for what it is. It is done now but it's just really disliked because it felt bad it just felt really bad even the written review was at least edited once I think.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: The Silverlord on January 30, 2012, 05:31:43 AM
Interesting that the IGN UK review (http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/112/1126397p1.html (http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/112/1126397p1.html)) was much more balanced and they gave it an 8.5.  They also may be having a little nudge at the US review:

"If you've been getting your Belmont on since Castlevania's original outing on NES almost a quarter of a century ago now, Lords of Shadow - Konami's reimagining of the classic series - won't be quite the calamitous case of sacrilege some quarters might have you believe."

"It's the addition of Lords of Shadow's ingenious magic system that makes an otherwise solid, frequently satisfying combat engine into something a little bit special."

"Each distinctive area is largely linear in design ... it all feels disappointingly restrictive"

"Lords of Shadow employs an automatic camera system which ... occasionally falters during frantic combat or fiddly platform sections"

"Finally, and perhaps most frustrating, is the game's inability to explain itself properly"

"It’s unavoidable that, by shirking the labyrinthine puzzling the series has become known for in recent years, Castlevania: Lords of Shadow will have its detractors."

"It's the confidence and quality of the game’s design that give this latest series outing its own identity ... is a beautifully atmospheric, undeniably entertaining experience"

I think the review is pretty much bang on.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: GummiCandyful on January 30, 2012, 03:20:54 PM
But they gave it a 7.5, didn't they?? That's not too bad of a score.

While not necessarily a bad score per say, a 7.5 is considered rather decent or "meh" at best. Besides, that score can be pretty much equivalent to some of LoI and CoD's ratings, which is nonsensical considering that LoS was far better executed than those two games.

I should also mention that according to Wikipedia, the former did well with the ratings, despite the fact that the fanbase says otherwise:


Quote
GameRankings   78.72%
Metacritic   79 / 100
GameStats   8.0 / 10
1UP.com   B+
Computer and Video Games   8 / 10
Edge   8 / 10
Eurogamer   7 / 10
Game Informer   8 / 10
GamePro 5/5
GamesMaster  83%
GameSpot   7.7 / 10
GameSpy   3/5
GameZone   9 / 10
IGN   9.0 / 10
Official PlayStation Magazine (US)   4/5
Play Magazine   B+
PSM   9 / 10
X-Play 3/5
Awards
Entity   Award
IGN   Editors' Choice

Whereas, in contrast, CoD was pretty much a mixed bag:

Quote
GameRankings   72.48%
Metacritic   74 / 100
GameStats   7.3 / 10
1UP.com   7.5 / 10
GamePro   4/5
GameSpot   6.8 / 10
GameTrailers   7.9 / 10
GameZone   7.8 / 10
IGN   7.8 / 10
Play Magazine   9 / 10
TeamXbox   7.6 / 10
X-Play   3/5
Gamers Hell   8.5 / 10
Hardcore Gamer   4.5/5
RPGFan   82 / 100

It sort of baffles me how a game like LoI could end up on the Editor's Choice list on IGN; it really makes no sense to me at all.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: RichterB on January 30, 2012, 04:39:44 PM
Perhaps misguided would be best, but I'd like to say it sold out.

(And I'm not saying this because I wanted an IGAvania).

EDIT: Following up what has been said: I think Way Forward could easily make a very, very solid 2D Classicvania. It might end up overly familiar, but it would play and look like a dream. Think Contra 4 for DS, which went toe-to-toe with some of the best in that storied franchise, but didn't necessarily eclipse them. (To that point, when you're making a new 3D Castlevania, it's common sense to look at 3 and 4 as the most basic benchmarks, and build from there, IMO...but few if any have had the guts). When it comes to 3D, Platinum or Ninja Theory, despite their talents, would not be good choices. Too much action, too many combos. Castlevania's 3D format has been best realized by the 64 games, despite their flaws. But no one yet has had the guts to go back and try such an ambitious formula. Certainly not LoS. There isn't a modern game in the last few years I can think of that dares to give the player that much freedom in terms of platforming and terrain/level design, utilizing a camera that follows the character from behind. Probably the closest would be the Mario Galaxy titles. lol. Honestly, modern games are scared to move away from preset genre formulas in 3D.



Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Maedhros on January 31, 2012, 01:06:37 PM
Dead. Like Contra and Megaman.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Kingshango on January 31, 2012, 01:23:19 PM
Dead. Like Contra and Megaman.

Contra actually has two games in the works, one for the 3DS and another for consoles.

As for Megaman.....at least he's in Street Fighter X Tekken.......sorta, kinda. :-\
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Flame on January 31, 2012, 03:44:38 PM
At least he gets cool merchandise. Those D-Arts figures are top notch quality.
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Sumac on February 01, 2012, 11:14:13 AM
Quote
Dead. Like Contra and Megaman.
Quite pessimistic.
I wonder is it because the last big entry in the series didn't satisfied you or there is another reason?
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Flame on February 01, 2012, 12:32:05 PM
Which do you think? its the only reason anyone here really considers the franchise "dead".
Title: Re: One word to describe the state of the franchise.
Post by: Sumac on February 01, 2012, 01:35:20 PM
Quote
Which do you think? its the only reason anyone here really considers the franchise "dead".
True.
But I hoped that maybe he has some "original" view...
Nahh...