Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Nagumo on January 17, 2012, 09:09:06 AM
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I was talking to IGA on Facebook, and I was asking about the canonity of certain games (because it's something I'm interested in) in order to clear up some confusion that has arisen over it. Basically, the timeline that came along with Portrait of Ruin was incorrect in some regards, because IGA still insists that Circle of the Moon, and the N64 games are not in the timeline (I never really believed that timeline was correct anyway). He also confirmed that Order of Shadows and the Arcade are non-canon because they were intented from the very beginning to be such:
Regarding Castlevania 64, Legacy of Darkness, Circle of the Moon, Order of Shadows and the Arcade, they are stories from a separate world with the same world view.
Castlevania 64, Legacy of Darkness and Circle of the Moon are treated in the same way as the makers intended.
Also, for Order of Shadows and the Arcade, we proceeded from the start with the plan to create them as a separate continuity, since we thought including them in the formal series would cause a variety of production difficulties.
世界観 (world view) means something like atmosphere and aesthetic combined.
Interestingly enough, he used the word 別の世界 (different world/alternate universe). Non-canon seems to imply that these stories never happend at all, which isn't quite the same thing as 別の世界. IGA says these games literary take place in an alternate universe, it is not a synonym for non-canon.
Anyway, that got me thinking. Cornell appears in Judgment, but Legacy of Darkness does not take place in the main timeline. That would either mean a) Judgment is non-canon b) the Cornell that appears in Judgment is a "reimagined Cornell" or c) Cornell is taken from a different universe than the other characters in Judgment. I asked this question to IGA as well, but his answer was kind of vague:
You mentioned Legend of Cornell was an alternate continuity. Howevef, Cornell appears in Castlevania Judgment, which I believe is not an alternate continuity. How does that work? is he from a different universe than the other characters? It is not really explained in the game itself so I was hoping you could give some clarification on the issue.
"Judgment" is a work that surpasses space and time and brings them together.
Without thinking about it too deeply, it has simply been chosen for the character that pervades the series.
I don't know if that's the kind of answer you were looking for, but that's about the size of it.
It is not a direct answer to my question. However, it does seem to rule out the b option already. In my question, I did say that I didn't think Judgment was non-canon, however he doesn't seem to catch on to that because he explains Cornell's appearance by saying that "Judgment is a work that surpasses space and time and brings them together" and not because it is non-canon. Which would only leave the c option.
Does anybody agree with that conclusion (Judgment is canon, Cornell is from a different universe that the other Judgment characters). Or would you still say Judgment is non-canon and just leave it at that? :-\
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I think that it's a toss up. A time rift would explain everything because it would affect not just time but every reality as well. This explains Cornell. Also, I believe that all the characters lost their memory of the time rift when they were returned from whence they came. As I said, it's a toss up. It can really go either way.
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I believe that Judgement is it's own entity entirely. It doesn't fit anywhere in any real CV timeline or meshes properly with any of the continuity. It is it's own game, it's own universe, it's own story. This is the only real way for it to exist without interfering with the other games. Besides, who wants to continut to see Grant as a mummy rather then a properly drawn pirate? :P Also the Trevor/Sypha/Grant love triangle? I call bulls**t on that one.
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As far as I know Judgement story happened in a time rift that disappeared after Time Reaper was defeated. So events of this kind of happened, but didn't had any lasting effect on any anything, making this game sort of non-canon / canon.
However the general idea that there is more CV universes than one, could possibly bring some ease to the some people minds, if it is what IGA meant.
As for art direction - it always changed through the series, so I don't see CVJ versions of character as separate entities from their original forms. Just another take on them.
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Also, I believe that all the characters lost their memory of the time rift when they were returned from whence they came.
Yes, I think the characters obviously lost their memories of what happend. It would be a pretty silly reason to consider Judgment non-canon because the characters would still remember what happend in the time rift, especially since hand waving that away with amnesia requires zero effort.
However the general idea that there is more CV universes than one, could possibly bring some ease to the some people minds, if it is what IGA meant.
I really like that idea myself. And I'm kind of hoping that is indeed what IGA meant.
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Personally, the game incensed me enough that I rarely admit it was made at all.
You want a Castlevania mash? Go play Harmony of Despair.
No, I do not consider it canon.
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Hey Nagumo, next time you get a chance to chat with Iga could you ask him if he'll give the specific year that Order of Ecclesia takes place? This question has been driving me crazy.
I feel like all the games, minus LoS of course, can fit easily into one streamlined continuity. I know Iga has his own specific timeline of events, but none of the games really exclude themselves entirely from fitting in. Judgment fits in easily because none of its events happen in normal space/time. The only things that concern themselves with continuity are when the characters are taken from and when the Time Reaper comes from.
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Sure, I'll try. However, he sometimes is a bit reluctant to give away certain information because he is not allowed to reveal it and I'm asking him things during his free time.
Also, if anybody thinks Judgment is non-canon, could you perhaps give a reason for why you think so? Aside from "because I don't like the game"?
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I believe that Judgement is it's own entity entirely. It doesn't fit anywhere in any real CV timeline or meshes properly with any of the continuity. It is it's own game, it's own universe, it's own story. This is the only real way for it to exist without interfering with the other games. Besides, who wants to continut to see Grant as a mummy rather then a properly drawn pirate? :P Also the Trevor/Sypha/Grant love triangle? I call bulls**t on that one.
This.
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I wouldn't worry too much about the character designs sticking. Whetever a game is canon or not does not mean its art style will remain or something. Judgment also had some stupid character scenarios but most are ok.
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Maria is a perfect example of why I hold the game as non-canon. Her personality is so utterly distinct and butchered from her previous appearances that there really is no similarity to the original character outside of a grating voice.
Maria in Rondo is portrayed as innocent, and certainly naive, but never the cup-size obsessive we see in Judgment. She's a sweet girl, confident in herself and her own abilities. Furthermore, in Symphony (which is post-Rondo AND post-Judgment) she is shown to be a mature, cool-headed individual who's only displayed insecurity is a hinted at unrequited attraction to Alucard.
If Maria was plucked out of time between Rondo and Symphony, or even POST-Symphony, there would be no reason for her personality to be so absurdly different. If anything, she'd be showing a maturity beyond her years.
Changes like those are why I hold Judgment to be non-canon.
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I think that you should question IGA. "Did you get fired from the producer of Castlevania series?"
It sets aside and I think that a Judgment will be canon within IGA's brain.
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i'd like to think as much of Judgment that is logically possible is "canon", but not necessarily applicable to the "main" timeline. the main timeline and LoD timeline are connected in a multiverse, and Judgment bridges the gap between those two timelines. i think that's consistent with what Iga's saying.
but since characters can be pulled from any "timeline", there's no way of knowing for sure if the timeline they were pulled from was the "main" timeline. Carmilla "could" have been pulled from Circle of the Moon's timeline or the main one. if they later on decide that they didn't like a particular element of the character's backstory that they made up for Judgment and contradict it, they can always say, "well, he was coming from a different timeline".
EDIT:
On second thought, I think Iga's quote "it has simply been chosen for the character that pervades the series" is an indication that it's not canon. As much as I'd like otherwise.
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All games in the series that are non-canon have this confirmed by the developers themselves somehow before the game was released, except Legends, but that one is an exception.
CotM: I believe it was confirmed in a Japanese magazine
N64: Confirmed by the title itself, Demon Castle Dracula Apocalypse Gaiden.
OoS: Confirmed by one of the developers.
If Judgment was intented to be non-canon, it would have been mentioned. Also, I think IGA would have explained Cornell's appearance by saying it was non-canon, instead of the answer he actually gave. I think the developers wouldn't have even bothered to come up with the time travel plot in the first place if it was non-canon.
It seems I managed to convince myself.
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I think the developers wouldn't have even bothered to come up with the time travel plot in the first place if it was non-canon.
It seems I managed to convince myself.
Most games these days have stories. How would all those characters meet up unless time's natural flow was being disregarded somehow?
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CotM: I believe it was confirmed in a Japanese magazine
Konami Magazine (Japanese Konami's free magazine) VOL 20, 12 page.
http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/File:Konamimagazinevolume20-page012.jpg (http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/File:Konamimagazinevolume20-page012.jpg)
本作のストーリーは、今までのベルモント家やモリス家とは異なる時間軸で流れていく。
"This story is a time axis different from the former Belmont family and Morris family"
But I couldn't find the same sentences "time axis" except for this.
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Most games these days have stories. How would all those characters meet up unless time's natural flow was being disregarded somehow?
True. I suppose that doesn't really say much.
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I think that you should question IGA. "Did you get fired from the producer of Castlevania series?"
That'd be kinda rude to ask =3
Perhaps something more subtle like if Konami is still open to making more 2D or 2.5D Castlevanias or CVs on the original timeline.
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Without thinking about it too deeply, it has simply been chosen for the character that pervades the series.
What did you expect?? it's Igarashi.
He-doesn't-give-a-darn
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I think it's supposed to be canon.
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@Naggermo,
you should ask iga if he's aware of the Anti-Chapel/Dungeon forums, because we're his biggest fans. Ask him that for us??
Also, if he still has a 3DS kit ;)
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I think that Castlevania timeline (original) just gives a perfect opportunity to bring all characters together via timetravel. There is really nothing else that you can do to unite them in one single game.
If rumors are correct than initial roster of the CV64 should have consisted of Simon Belmont, Maria Renard, Reinhardt Cornell and Corler. If that's the true, then I still wonder how they intended to make Simon and Maria co-exist in the same timeframe?
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If judgment is indeed, canon, its story would reticon the battle of 1999 in theory, cause why would gala need to send the time reaper back in time to destroy dracula, he should be dead. time reaper: "I came from 10,000 years hence forth" so it would be same to assume Soma does in fact become dracula, or dracula never perished and returned in 2099 or 2100, going by the AOS in game facts that he supposidly died in 1999. then again judgment could take place in an alternate dimesion, giving the fact Aeon is basicly like St Germain, a keeper of the order of time, to many variables and no sequels likely ever to clear things up, at least smash brothers cleared some stuff up with brawl and raised further questions
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I think Galamoth wanted to erase Dracula from ever existing. From the few bits we know of his story, Galamoth wanted to be the Dark Lord and Dracula kept that from happening. Galamoth is obviously no match for Dracula, or his son, so the easiest way to defeat him would be by erasing him from reality.
This also brings up the interesting idea that Dracula, although "evil", really does serve a vital role in keeping the forces of darkness in check. Aeon obviously knew that Galamoth would have been a far worse Dark Lord, probably causing unbridled chaos in the world. So he chose to aid Dracula, who seems to follow certain rules about when he can return, what he can and can't do, and generally controlling the all the creatures of chaos that the castle spawns.
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This also brings up the interesting idea that Dracula, although "evil", really does serve a vital role in keeping the forces of darkness in check. Aeon obviously knew that Galamoth would have been a far worse Dark Lord, probably causing unbridled chaos in the world. So he chose to aid Dracula, who seems to follow certain rules about when he can return, what he can and can't do, and generally controlling the all the creatures of chaos that the castle spawns.
And why not. Dracula maybe the embodiment of all that is evil in CV however he is an East-European nobleman with set-standards, just like Vlad was during his reign. He was a tyrant and murdered thousands (grotesquely I might add) but he kept order in his poor, sickened, war-ravaged country and even protected it from foreign invaders such as the Ottoman Empire. If someone like Galamoth comes in it'll be nothing but utter chaos which would mean that Earth as we know it and see it, would be non-existent. Is Galamoth more evil the Dracula? I have my doubts. While Dracula has proven himself as evil in nature, Galamoth comes off to me as a 'Chaotic wild beast' with absolutely no shread of order. Both "Evil" and "Chaos" are different in the natural world. Evil comes from the the darkness of human emotions, thoughts and feelings whilst chaos is the opposite of order. Chaos isn't evil, it's just chaos. It wouldn't make any sense to look at it because it's chaos and our minds are grounded in order and logic. I think Galamoth is a threat based on that he is chaos and not evil. No one can live in a chaotic world.
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I view Judgement as in the same vein as Capcom Vs SNK, King Of Fighters, Capcom vs Tatsunoko, NeoGeo Battle Colliseum, and the like.
I mean, really, a guy can spam fireballs out of his hands and people are pissing themselves about someone a guy wearing spandex with a high-tensile liquid grappling compound hidden under his sleeve? (MvC) You mean Nakoruru could be one of Athena's biggest fans? (NGBC) Epic showdown between Chun-Li and Haohmaru! (CVS)
Hell, even KOF series has continuity issues that prove the game series isn't canon to anything, just a mash-up of other games. (Although back when Mai and Andy were both staple characters, there was some continuity there, but that was about it). ... Hell, Clark and Ralph don't even recognize each other anymore! (Has to do with Playmore sucking ass, more than anything.)
So no, I don't think it's canon. I think IGA is just trying to make Judgement sound like it's not simply another mash-up. But it is. All mash-ups have shitty plot excuses to explain why everyone's together. MvC3 had the intro video to do that. Hell, though. At least SNK never really gave a shit. They're like, "Yeah, we'll mix a bunch of characters together from various franchises and have them fight to stop a powerful enemy. How did they all come together? Fuck it, who cares?"
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That's why i lol when someone says the Smash Bros. series has a story/plot. you gotta be kidding me lmao
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Hell, even KOF series has continuity issues that prove the game series isn't canon to anything, just a mash-up of other games.
Actually KOF probably on of the rare examples of stable continuty in the fighting games genre (aside form non-aging characters). Developers always put a huge amount of attention at the storyline, so saying that series doesn't have contiunity is a bit of a stretch, to say the least.
The only non-continuty game in the series are "compilation games" KOF98, KOF2002 and KOF12.
To Crisis:
Poor thing. You got so low that decided to steal my avatar?
My sincere condolences to the state of your mind.
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Point taken.
Which is also why KOF is the best 2D fighter on the old market. Sorry, but SF just looks and sounds stupid, especially later ones. I never did like it. The graphics were too cartoony/bulky and the soundtrack was forgettable. But I remember when I played my first KOF game. And the next. And the next. And listened to the soundtrack. And again. And again. And again. SNK just made better fighters, period. Morrigan and Felicia are hot and all, but Athena survives the test of time. ... But I'm getting off track here...
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well, we're not supposed to think too hard about this. so each fan should just believe what their gut tells them.
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My gut tells me to quit drinking coffee and give tithes and offerings to the Porcelain Goddess.
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Like what a few have already mentioned, Maria's personality is the wrench in that game being cannon. A real change, even if she were in her pre-teen stage I doubt that it would work out too well (if not for her innocent personality before hand, the fanbase certainly shows they didn't like it). Don't even remember at what point in time Aeon took Maria from, though either way it's still a problem.
The love triangle could work, since the character's personalities were never truly explored nor their relationships to one another (asides Trevor and Sypha). Aeon can both be non cannon or exist in the timeline, as his story doesn't contradict anything (other than that other Aeon in Curse of Darkness). And the simple "everyone else forgets the events that took place" would more than suffice to making the story cannon.
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They obviously modeled Maria's personality after how she acted in Rondo. Especially when looking at the cutscenes, you can tell she was envisioned to be a silly little girl like in Judgment. In that sense, her personality is consistent.
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EDIT:
Nevermind.
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Well the way Dracula seems to operate, whenever he rises from the grave, he retakes his land, like any old lord would, Vlad Tepes did a few times, but his reign has never really left his domain, hes always mentioned about conquest and what not, but always seems to be content on just being left alone in his castle under his rule, He seems to be a a tyrant when his rule "Which back in his time, was law" is questioned, he was very polite to Shanoa, weither it was cause she was female is to be debated, but He has always held the grudge against the belmonts, there seems to be no pleasentrys, but for judgment, he recongizes his kingdom is underseige, and like the warlord hes been named, goes to defend it, and possibly his honor or title, in the game, he doesnt seem to take anyone's side, since as the ruler of (possibly romania?) or wherever the castle has formed, but in all the games he rarely attacked the neighboring areas, unless someone either threatened him or a belmont lived in the area, eg the origianl dracula (bran stoker) never attacked the village bellow his castle, the people feared him, and that fear made them respect his power, like a typical
King, according to manual he is a King in Judgment, but Gala, well his motives havent really really been ironed out, what does his conquest hold for humanity, same could be said for dracula, his "War" never seemed to actually go into motion