Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Kingshango on January 27, 2012, 09:32:39 AM
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Egoraptor returns with another installment of sequelitis with Super Castlevania 4.
Sequelitis - Super Castlevania 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww_PjqYQi5E#ws)
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I find this guy's voice too irritating to watch all the way through, but that's just me.
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I'd like to know his opinion on SotN and LoS. Also REmake and RE4.
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Egoraptor has some good opinions, and I like that he calls out Super Castlevania IV for flaws not many people I know think about.
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He is absolutely right. This is the exact reason I did not use full range whipping in my project. Despite this though, the game is magnificent.
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SCV4 is one of my top favorite Castlevania games but some of the points he made were spot on(The knife thing especially, I never used it.)
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I particularly liked his point about how sequels shouldn't be weighed down by the game mechanics of old games for the sake of nostalgia.
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His comment on a game being more based around the whip, with more stuff for the whip to do, immediately made me thing of LoS, and how most everything can be done with the whip. The sub weapons are few, and not that important. They arent made obsolete by the whip, because they do things that complement that.
Fairies: distract enemies. + Magic = suicidal fairies that do damage
Holy Water: knocks enemies back. For when you are overwhelmed by shit all on top of you. i think it stunned them too didnt it? + Magic = shield
Dagger: just a quickly tossed weapon with decent range for stuff out of your range. + Magic = fireballs (hmmm... Gabriel = Dracula... Daggers + magic = fireballs... coincidence?)
Crystal:... screen clearing limited use item.
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Loved it. Super is my favorite in the series, but even I must agree with the points he made about it. It's definitely one of the easier titles in the series.
I would love to see a Castlevania game like the one he made a mock up of solely using the whip, but Konami just isn't that creative anymore.
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His comment on a game being more based around the whip, with more stuff for the whip to do, immediately made me thing of LoS, and how most everything can be done with the whip. The sub weapons are few, and not that important. They arent made obsolete by the whip, because they do things that complement that.
Fairies: distract enemies. + Magic = suicidal fairies that do damage
Holy Water: knocks enemies back. For when you are overwhelmed by shit all on top of you. i think it stunned them too didnt it? + Magic = shield
Dagger: just a quickly tossed weapon with decent range for stuff out of your range. + Magic = fireballs (hmmm... Gabriel = Dracula... Daggers + magic = fireballs... coincidence?)
Crystal:... screen clearing limited use item.
Yes. This is something I think LoS did right.
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He made some very good points and the illustrations of other shit they could have let you do with the whip immediately gave me ideas. I wonder how free range whip will fare with fiance jumps & a relatively short range in my remake?
Also, this pretty much explains why no game after this one has free range whipping.
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Also, this pretty much explains why no game after this one has free range whipping.
Both bloodlines and CV: Chronicles 1 had multi-directional whipping, but only to an extent. Bloodlines had greater free-range whipping then Chronicles did. I guess when these two separate titles came out the whole idea of free-ranged whipping was dwindling out. It's a shame really as I could definitely see a very good use for free-ranged whip attacks in Castlevania: Dracula X.
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Wow I've never heard of someone having that kind of take on SC4. It would be like someone ripping up Super Metroid for Samus being able to jump better and aim diagonally vs original metroid. Neither game is difficult at all, but they're so fun that I didn't know anyone cared if they were easier.
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Wow I've never heard of someone having that kind of take on SC4. It would be like someone ripping up Super Metroid for Samus being able to jump better and aim diagonally vs original metroid. Neither game is difficult at all, but they're so fun that I didn't know anyone cared if they were easier.
To be fair, the critic's really less about making the game easier and more about de-emphasizing options and not realizing the full potential of the new gameplay system.
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I love the raptor, but I'd have to disagree with him on that. The whole idea of being able to whip in each direction is to give out the full gameplay potential the SNES gives you. making the game easier? Why is that a bad thing when compared to a-game-so-freaking-hard-you-want-to-cut-your-own-veins-out-of-frustration? My opinion is that the fluid gameplay makes it much more fun.
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To me it sounds like awesome game not as good as nes cv yet still good, but they could have expanded more on the idea but if that is the case would bloodlines or rondo of blood be better because the are good uses for items. Either way it seems that his favorite cv is the first and the other seem to be a mixed bag. Also SCVIV is a remake just saying Ego just saying....
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I love how he dodged Dracula's Curse that whole video. Except the one time he was like, "Whatever comes between the second and the fourth." Not like CV3 didn't add new mechanics to the series. Just nothing seemingly as groundbreaking and no Simon.
Ego wasn't complaining too much that SCV4 was too easy, but that the new mechanics weren't well thought out. "Let's let Simon attack more than just straight forward." Sure you could only whip in front of you but the whip had a delay before it recoiled, allowing you to hit multiple enemies on the way up or on the way down. His gripe wasn't that it made items obsolete, it was that Konami even bothered to keep items in at all because they were obsolete. Egoraptor would have no problem with a CV game that had no items, but SCV4's items were totally pointless, as were the hearts, because they were even worse than the whip. In CV1 and CV3, items were extremely useful. What he was pointing out, it sounds like Konami originally maybe wanted straight-ahead whipping and designed SCV4 in that fashion, then one of the higher ups said, "Make the whipping easier by allowing Simon to attack 8 directions," so they added that in without changing the rest of the game at all, which created a broken mechanic. I don't care how big of a fanboy of SCV4 you are, Simon's whipping is unarguably a broken mechanic. Hence as Egoraptor said, it's an ungraceful game.
As for the whipping puzzles, OoE kinda did that with the Magnes. Especially in the Training Hall. God that place is pissing me off right now. And SCV4 DID have the grappling areas, so it's not like Konami totally missed that.
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Yeah, I don't think anyone particularly likes SCV4 for its gameplay additions, besides the more fluid jump control and maybe, the grappling. Those two were the only ones well implemented in the level design.
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I don't know if it says much but the only sub-weapon I thought was neccesarry in the NES Castlevania was the Holy Water in order to the spam all the bosses to death with. Though I suppose it would still beat SCIV in sub-weapon usage. :-X
CV3 is probably the best at incorporating situations were sub-weapons are genuinely helpful into the design.
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I love how he dodged Dracula's Curse that whole video. Except the one time he was like, "Whatever comes between the second and the fourth." Not like CV3 didn't add new mechanics to the series. Just nothing seemingly as groundbreaking and no Simon.
Ego wasn't complaining too much that SCV4 was too easy, but that the new mechanics weren't well thought out. "Let's let Simon attack more than just straight forward." Sure you could only whip in front of you but the whip had a delay before it recoiled, allowing you to hit multiple enemies on the way up or on the way down. His gripe wasn't that it made items obsolete, it was that Konami even bothered to keep items in at all because they were obsolete. Egoraptor would have no problem with a CV game that had no items, but SCV4's items were totally pointless, as were the hearts, because they were even worse than the whip. In CV1 and CV3, items were extremely useful. What he was pointing out, it sounds like Konami originally maybe wanted straight-ahead whipping and designed SCV4 in that fashion, then one of the higher ups said, "Make the whipping easier by allowing Simon to attack 8 directions," so they added that in without changing the rest of the game at all, which created a broken mechanic. I don't care how big of a fanboy of SCV4 you are, Simon's whipping is unarguably a broken mechanic. Hence as Egoraptor said, it's an ungraceful game.
As for the whipping puzzles, OoE kinda did that with the Magnes. Especially in the Training Hall. God that place is pissing me off right now. And SCV4 DID have the grappling areas, so it's not like Konami totally missed that.
Are you talking to me?
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Its the reason why some other classicvanias included multi directional whipping only to a certain extent, and you had to know how to use it well. Bloodlines for example. You can only diagonal whip and down whip while airborn. Making it a bit more dangerous, since because you cant change your mid-air trajectory, you are vulnerable and liable to get hit by some flying piece of shit that will knock you right off the stage.
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I have had similar thoughts for some time now, and this is a major reason I think CV3 beats it as an overall game. I think 4's additions make it the most fun for skill challenges, though - the cross is a huge factor even with the overpowered whip, holy water still hurts a lot even in its nerfed state, and the stopwatch becomes important in the second loop. New abilities and techniques also make for more cool tricks!
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At least, someone who doesn't think SCVIV is the second coming of Christ :hi5:
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The only thing SC4 ever had going for it w as multi directional whipping, and mid air trajectory changing. That's it. without those it wold be just another castlevania remake. Those are the only 2 things that make people go nuts over it.
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Not that I'm a big fan of SCIV or anything, but that's a very large exaggeration. Perhaps that there really are certain people who are like that but they don't represent the majority.
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At least, someone who doesn't think SCVIV is the second coming of Christ :hi5:
It still is.
The only thing SC4 ever had going for it w as multi directional whipping, and mid air trajectory changing. That's it. without those it wold be just another castlevania remake. Those are the only 2 things that make people go nuts over it.
You neglect to mention the atmosphere, dark and detailed graphics, music, overall mood, whip swinging, great use of mode 7, excellent level design, and more.
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That guy who did the review... or whatever that was, also neglected to mention that stuff. He harped on one subject the whole time and left everything else out. It was actually a kind of crappy look at the game, really, and didn't nearly do it proper justice. I'm not saying his point isn't well taken, but man... there's a lot more to CV4 than the whipping function. If everything else goes over a person's head, and they get bizarrely fixated on the whip, I'm inclined to think they're somewhat dimwitted. He says more than once that he's not doing that, but I dunno'. His entire video is like, "Hey go try out this game, it's pretty neat, but THAT whip. Yeah, so... about that whipping again. Man, this whipping really stanks. By the way, I'm telling you to play this game."
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The show is obviously not about reviewing games. It's about comparisons between sequels and the advancement of game design, as well as in depth looks at examples of how gaming has changed over time.
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Ego's videos are entertaining and pretty insightful (especially the Megaman X one). This one made a decent point, but I don't think it was as well thought out. The whip is a little overpowered, but this is nothing compared to what has happened to Castlevania SotN and beyond in terms of how you can spam the enemies. (And I still argue that sub-weapons, since the inclusion of combos, have been greatly underutilized. Only the 64 games got it right in the balance of whip + subweapons). Anyway, the Castleroid games, as fun as they can be at times, are broken in their combat/danger (you're literally superman more often than not, taking away meaningful platforming and such), whereas SCVIV merely has some cracks in its armor. The fact is, each Classicvania was done by different people with different experimental pieces. The 8-way whip/grappling hook was an experimental add-on in #4. While it could have been explored further, as Ego's rough schematics show, it was utilized in exciting ways that no other Castlevania has matched. Just look at the Clocktower stage's use of the new whip mechanics. (It even convered the basics of some of Ego's rough ideas). Had this idea been kept, I'm sure it would have evolved and been fleshed out further--but it was obviously considered too hard to develop for most creators, which is very sad. So maybe one of #4's strengths is its weaknesses...but you know what? Heck if it wasn't one of the more ambitious CV titles. It still stands in my top 3. I doubt we'll see as innovative a title in a long time.
Plus, Uzo's note is well taken: "You neglect to mention the atmosphere, dark and detailed graphics, music, overall mood, whip swinging, great use of mode 7, excellent level design, and more." It maybe be a remake of #1, but I think it's a far more original and dynamic remake than Chronicles; it feels more like a sequel to me, honestly.
PS: Why Ego's avoidance of CVIII?!
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Either because the only really new thing was the character changing system and different characters, or because he just hasnt gotten around to making the CV vs CV3 video yet and wanted to tackle 4 because its really just a remake of 1. so its the remake vs the original. Gets complicated because its titled 4 when its a remake. (and 3 is 3 despite being a prequel)
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I'd love to see someone use the sprites from Cv3 to make an 8-bit remake of CV4
That being said, yes, the whip did make it easy, but the game still was fairly challenging at time (and as Uzo mentioned, had a heck of a lot going for it), especially back in the day. Cv4 is still easily one of my top 3 Cv's.
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I agree with everything he says. Also, I don't like Castlevania 4 that much anyway. I don't remember using the subweapons at all in that game. I'll try to play again these days...
He won't be doing anything these days, since he is on The Tester 3.
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I'd love for the game to be optimized without any slowdown like in the Mega Man X Collection, because that's honestly what kinda kills it for me sometimes.
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The difficulty in SCV4 didn't really concern me. There were a lot more things to like in the level design than challenge.
It's kinda like how Rondo is easy, but it has superb level design.
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The difficulty in SCV4 didn't really concern me. There were a lot more things to like in the level design than challenge.
It's kinda like how Rondo is easy, but it has superb level design.
Exactly. I like a good challenge, but CV4 was GORGEOUS not only graphically, but musically as well. Easily a high water mark of the series if you ask me, I'd say it's one of the few entries in the series where everything agrees, and not just agrees, but REALLY agrees. The music, the sounds, the levels, the overall mood, the graphical style, etc all bring forth one consistent mood and it winds up being a real immersive experience because of it.
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I totally agree, good Docta (also hai!). The unparalled atmosphere, scenery porn, and music alone is what makes SCIV one of the best gams in the entire series.
Egoraptor, man, his reviews can be rather obnoxious. It's hard to do a character thing without it becoming too unbearable.
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I'd love to see someone use the sprites from Cv3 to make an 8-bit remake of CV4
Well that's sorta what CV:tDC is, but with lots more added in. As a matter of fact the second rout through the game is going to mostly be made up of SCV4 stages. Also I was always planning on including 8-way whipping which this video got me thinking about more. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out.
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I used the Cross Boomerang + Triple Shot heavily in SuperCV4. I don't know what you guys are talking about with useless subweapons. That cross totally helps me defeat most of the bosses in the game, and with three of them on the screen, it outguns the whip. I usually chuck three of those bastards with great timing and then just use the whip for a nice finish.
And to pose whilst grabbing the StageClear Crystal.
It's also awesome that you can use subweapons while swinging.
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The cross is really the only sub weapon that is useful. I always have a triple cross handy. It totally dominates a lot of bosses.
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For me it's the Triple Axe all the way. I'll always be disappointed with anything else.
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I used the Cross Boomerang + Triple Shot heavily in SuperCV4. I don't know what you guys are talking about with useless subweapons. That cross totally helps me defeat most of the bosses in the game, and with three of them on the screen, it outguns the whip. I usually chuck three of those bastards with great timing and then just use the whip for a nice finish.
And to pose whilst grabbing the StageClear Crystal.
Same here. I only ever used the cross, but I didn't really ever use it often. I think Egoraptor is right about the *edit* whip *edit* mechanics overshadowing the sub-weapons for the most part. Everything except the cross was nearly useless and I never felt like I needed any of them to survive. I did feel that way in CV1 & 3 though. I think that's what he was getting at. They weren't needed.
It's also awesome that you can use subweapons while swinging.
The thing is though, when did the level design ever force you to want to do that other than to eat shit?
PS: Glad I wasn't the only one using the whip to pose. :P
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PS: Glad I wasn't the only one using the whip to pose. :P
Eh, anyone who's ever played HoD or Serio's CV Fighter tend to catch that habit.
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The thing is though, when did the level design ever force you to want to do that other than to eat shit?
The latter segment of the Clock tower is a good spot for use of the sub weapon while dangling from your whip.
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He certainly makes a good point, never occurred to me before till now. From what I had seen from his other vids too, he has made very valid points, and personally Im hoping to see more of them.
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Ok the whole point of Egoraptors post revolves around his first two videos prior to this one. In CV1 vs CV2 he asks do you get more enjoyment out of grinding for a while to get the best sword and then wailing on the boss till he falls or do you feel more satisfied to use your wicked cunning to get around super perilous obstacles. Facts are facts are facts. Do the players of Mario stop playing the game when falling into a pit or getting hit as they are making some super dangerous jump. NO!!! they keep playing. If you are riding a Yoshi and he gets hit and you suddenly get knocked off just as you are doing a super dangerous jump and you die do they stop playing. NO. So why is it that this game and this series goes through this criticism when Mario and Mega Man do not? Keep your SOTN clones and such. I have no beef with them as long as there are also titles made based after what the first game attempted to do. Let everyone have their cake and eat it too. Fuck what is more profitable.
On a side note what Ego said about the whips multidirectional capability is valid somewhat. The whip could have been used in for mutli directions only when there is a grappling area that needs it. In as such that would be the one instance where it could be used diagonally and not usurp the use of the alt weapons. With this you could have a scenario where you attack simultaneously using the whip if a flying enemy or object or whatever is in the path of the grappling spot. Otherwise if that is not the case then you could simultaneously attack with the Axe, Knife or Cross to take the enemy out.
By the way why does he neglect mentioning CVIII?
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Maybe he had no beef with CVIII because it didn't really introduce anything gamebreakingly new. The three companions were far from game-breaking. The gameplay was otherwise the exact same as CV1 essentially. If he didn't have anything to beef about, then there was no reason for him to make a video review.